Doubting Marxism-Leninism...or Stalin at least.

[Peoples' War]

I've always considered Marxism-Leninism to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist...

However, after being linked to articles on the Spanish Civil War, critiques of Stalinism by Tony Cliff and others, reading Orwell... I'm beginning to doubt things.

I watched "Land and Freedom" and I can't believe Stalin would do such a thing, or that his soldiers would.

I also watched a documentary about Trotsky, and it had accusations of Stalin changing the past, by saying that Trotsky "dithered" when in fact Stalin "dithered" to agree with Lenin. And other changes of what actually happened.

I'm confused...is it bourgeois propaganda, or what? Maybe it was Stalin, and not the theories which were wrong...

:confused: help...

[Manic Impressive]

I've always considered Marxism-Leninism to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist...

Why?

Are you asking for help trying to reaffirm your commitment to Marxism Leninism? I can't help there I'm afraid but Trotsky isn't much better with Stalin. That's like quitting cocaine for heroin.

[jookyle]

Well, there is something to be said for separating the man from the theory. No matter how much a person likes marxism-leninism doesn't change that Stalin was just a terrible person. Differences in theories like marxism-leninism vs. trotskyism don't really mean a whole lot because, a lot of the differences between them are irrelevant today. Look at all the theories, take the best parts of all them and build on them for the present. It's not the 1930's anymore, we must look forward.

[Peoples' War]

Why?

Are you asking for help trying to reaffirm your commitment to Marxism Leninism? I can't help there I'm afraid but Trotsky isn't much better with Stalin. That's like quitting cocaine for heroin.
I was hoping for people's opinion's on the critiques and to get a discussion going...

However, you've shown me that the ultra-left has no way to convey an actual argument.

[Astarte]

Strongly centralized vanguard parties manifest into strongly centralized states in which the vanguard party converts itself into a new bureaucratic ruling class. Think left of Lenin.

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

I don't know if you're trying to distinguish yourself ideologically, but if you are here are some contrasts between Marxism and Anarchism :

Anarchists do “not accept, even in the process of revolutionary transition, either constituent assemblies, provisional governments or so-called revolutionary dictatorships; because we are convinced that revolution is only sincere, honest and real in the hands of the masses, and that when it is concentrated in those of a few ruling individuals it inevitably and immediately becomes reaction.” Rather, the revolution “everywhere must be created by the people, and supreme control must always belong to the people organised into a free federation of agricultural and industrial associations... organised from the bottom upwards by means of revolutionary delegation.” (Michael Bakunin: Selected Writings, p. 237, p. 172)

Marxist, on the contrary, do believe in such state.

“Immediately after established governments have been overthrown, communes will have to reorganise themselves along revolutionary lines… In order to defend the revolution, their volunteers will at the same time form a communal militia. But no commune can defend itself in isolation. So it will be necessary to radiate revolution outward, to raise all of its neighbouring communes in revolt… and to federate with them for common defence.” (No Gods, No Masters, p. 164) - Bakunin

Now, Marxists believe in the defense of the territory after revolution, although instead of a communal militia united through federation, they believe, if I'm not mistaken, its the responsibility of the state to create an army loyal to the workers' state.

Those are just some issues that arise within debate against Marxist and Anarchist.

Also, if someone tries to bring up the strike will bring a new epoch, we believe in revolt or insurrection, too : “direct action” anarcho-syndicalists included “the general strike” and “in particularly critical cases, such, for example, as that in Spain today, armed resistance of the people for the protection of life and liberty.” - Rudolf Rocker

This is just some general information. Since you're new, you might be trying to develop your ideology, or at-least where your general ideals are.

I must note, however, I know nothing about Trotskyism :laugh: , albeit it's a Marxist ideology and I don't think it can differ much from ML'ism.

ADVISORY My intention is not to start a tendency war; just provide information. I will be more than happy for anyone to give the user a view contrary to mine.

[Althusser]

What do you want? Marxist-Leninism is a term coined by Stalin so he could fool everyone into thinking he was ideologically aligned with Marx and Lenin even though that couldn't be further from the truth.

ML's here will cry REVISIONISM whenever anyone calls Stalin on his massive failures and counter-revolutionary behavior. Lenin was going to have him expelled from the party, but he died. Stalin killed most of the old bolsheviks. He crushed any chance of actual WORLD REVOLUTION and INTERNATIONAL PROLETARIANISM, ya know... the thing Marx kept blabbin' about in those books he wrote.

Edit: I really am not posting this to start a tendency war. I am just addressing Stalin to answer the guys question.

[Art Vandelay]

I was hoping for people's opinion's on the critiques and to get a discussion going...

However, you've shown me that the ultra-left has no way to convey an actual argument.

Ha. What a joke, so you base your perception of what "ultra-left" is and its merits (although I doubt you could even tell me what ultra-leftism is) from a random poster on an internet forum. You have demonstrated the lack of critical thinking which has led to your abhorrent politics; I won't even bother responding to your question after seeing that garbage.

[Lee Van Cleef]

"Iosif Vissarionovich, why hast thou forsaken me?"

As a Marxist-Leninist, I must say I have no special love for Stalin. He is one of the twentieth century's most complex leaders. It is true he made some huge mistakes that costs thousands of lives, and he employed some overly harsh, undemocratic policies which resulted in the deaths of thousands more.

Does this mean nothing good came of Stalin's years in power? No. Does this discredit Marxism-Leninism in any way? Of course not. Marxism-Leninism is not blind devotion to Stalin and all of his decisions.

I would agree with the point that the main differences between Trotsky and Stalin are now a moot point. Stalin's decisions regarding Spain are still up for debate. We have no way of knowing what would have happened had Stalin gone "all in" with the anarchists, so it is impossible to know what the best course of action was.

Ultimately, what is most important is that you draw on a wide variety of thinkers to help you formulate your theory, while always making sure that you are asking the right questions, and coming at them with a Marxist approach. Don't worry so much about what would have happened if Trotsky became General Secretary of the CPSU. Worry instead about the many problems facing the working class today.

[Imposter Marxist]

I've always considered Marxism-Leninism to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist...

However, after being linked to articles on the Spanish Civil War, critiques of Stalinism by Tony Cliff and others, reading Orwell... I'm beginning to doubt things.

I watched "Land and Freedom" and I can't believe Stalin would do such a thing, or that his soldiers would.

I also watched a documentary about Trotsky, and it had accusations of Stalin changing the past, by saying that Trotsky "dithered" when in fact Stalin "dithered" to agree with Lenin. And other changes of what actually happened.

I'm confused...is it bourgeois propaganda, or what? Maybe it was Stalin, and not the theories which were wrong...

:confused: help...


I'm so excited to hear you're reading Tony Cliff. You're on the path to being another soilder in my anti-state capitalist army! You should also look into critiques of Trotsky, and Lenin, as they both seemed to enjoy a tad bit of state capitalism.

[Caj]

Look at all the theories, take the best parts of all them and build on them for the present. It's not the 1930's anymore, we must look forward.

This.

We must implement Socialism in One Country . . . permanently!

. . . Ok, maybe not that.

[Althusser]

I don't believe we will reach a point when every worker develops class consciousness, and we can have one big anarchist revolution w/o an actual vanguard.

As Lenin said, "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years."

I am always open to anarchist viewpoint though.

Along with my Marxist belief in the need for a socialist phase to eliminate classes, I DO believe in world communism, a basic tenant of marxism that was held by Lenin and Trotsky.... not Stalin. Stalin pretty much made up the idea of a "socialism in one country" ideology. Stalin didn't support communist revolution in Germany. (Trotsky did) According to Marxist beleif, If Germany, a fully industrialized nation, would have succeeded in worker's revolution, Russia would have been taken care of.

Stalin indirectly allowed the rise of fascism and Hitler in Germany.

EDIT: Again, don't mean to flame, just trying to talk about Stalin in the most civilized way I can.

[Peoples' War]

I think I am starting to separate Stalin from MLism..

I've been exposed to a lot of people who idolize Stalin and other ML's...

I think it's important to support the theory, but to question certain actions, such as forced collectivization, his actions in Spain, his feud whit Trotsky.

I need to read more, I know...

[Althusser]

I think I am starting to separate Stalin from MLism..

I've been exposed to a lot of people who idolize Stalin and other ML's...

I think it's important to support the theory, but to question certain actions, such as forced collectivization, his actions in Spain, his feud whit Trotsky.

I need to read more, I know...

and learn some goddamn manners...

[Art Vandelay]

As Lenin said, "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years."

Which is one of the most pretentious, elitist, anti-working class sentiments that I have ever heard come from a leftist.

[Igor]

Which is one of the most pretentious, elitist, anti-working class sentiments that I have ever heard come from a leftist.

Meet Lenin, my friend. The guy wasn't anywhere near a worker himself and spent most of his career being a pretentious upper middle class shit while handling the revolution business.

[Lee Van Cleef]

and learn some goddamn manners...
I could say the same about you. Not exactly sure where this came from...

Manic Impressive deserved the response he got, since his post was anything but helpful, and pretty patronizing. Just like this post of yours.

[Imposter Marxist]

Which is one of the most pretentious, elitist, anti-working class sentiments that I have ever heard come from a leftist.


Thats why its up to us comrade, to get out there and force all the workers to read Marx.

And Tony Cliff. Maybe just Tony Cliff.

[jookyle]

What do you want? Marxist-Leninism is a term coined by Stalin so he could fool everyone into thinking he was ideologically aligned with Marx and Lenin even though that couldn't be further from the truth.

ML's here will cry REVISIONISM whenever anyone calls Stalin on his massive failures and counter-revolutionary behavior. Lenin was going to have him expelled from the party, but he died. Stalin killed most of the old bolsheviks. He crushed any chance of actual WORLD REVOLUTION and INTERNATIONAL PROLETARIANISM, ya know... the thing Marx kept blabbin' about in those books he wrote.

Edit: I really am not posting this to start a tendency war. I am just addressing Stalin to answer the guys question.

And just to add to that, Stalin did censor Lenin's writings so the differences between the two wouldn't be seen. Not to mention all the other writings that he had stored away in poison trapped cabinets.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

@Manic Impressive and 9mm: Lay off the flame baiting.

@the OP: For this I would strongly advise someone in your tendency to talk to so you can work this out without public sentiments. I think that way you would receive a more honest train of thought. If you choose to do so and find such a person please post back here so I can close this impending tendency war.

[Prometeo liberado]

I've always considered Marxism-Leninism to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist...

However, after being linked to articles on the Spanish Civil War, critiques of Stalinism by Tony Cliff and others, reading Orwell... I'm beginning to doubt things.

I watched "Land and Freedom" and I can't believe Stalin would do such a thing, or that his soldiers would.

I also watched a documentary about Trotsky, and it had accusations of Stalin changing the past, by saying that Trotsky "dithered" when in fact Stalin "dithered" to agree with Lenin. And other changes of what actually happened.


I'm confused...is it bourgeois propaganda, or what? Maybe it was Stalin, and not the theories which were wrong...

:confused: help...

I didn't feel like reading thru all the posts so forgive me if this has already been said, but how in the hell can you make a decision like that based on of all people Orwell? You must have already made your mind up to invite nonsense and the writings of lunatics into your thought process. Orwell made it a point to turn over the names of communist working in the war effort at home. Homage To Catalonia should be renamed as Homage To the ego of a turncoat trot. You do ML a favor by not supporting it. Your theoretical leanings and analysis process are questionable at best. Revolution or the fight against Fascism was the question then, and answered correctly yet betrayed by the forces of ultra-left/anarchist infintilism. The communist lost the civil battle but won the greater war against Fascism. And what did your dear Orwell do? No less than shoot reds in the back as they helped in that fight. Is that your new idea of what socialism is? You sleep OK at night?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I've always considered Marxism-Leninism to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist...

However, after being linked to articles on the Spanish Civil War, critiques of Stalinism by Tony Cliff and others, reading Orwell... I'm beginning to doubt things.

I watched "Land and Freedom" and I can't believe Stalin would do such a thing, or that his soldiers would.

I also watched a documentary about Trotsky, and it had accusations of Stalin changing the past, by saying that Trotsky "dithered" when in fact Stalin "dithered" to agree with Lenin. And other changes of what actually happened.

I'm confused...is it bourgeois propaganda, or what? Maybe it was Stalin, and not the theories which were wrong...

:confused: help...
I think you should go back, read Marx, and stop focusing so much on what Stalin and Trotsky did or didn't do. :bored:

And for the record, Orwell was critical of Trotsky as well. He was a reformist. 1984 was a fantasy-scifi-proto-cyberpunk novel about a dystopian society. Sure, Big Brother and Emmanuel Goldstein were inspired by the Stalin/Trotsky feud, but it was by no means an allegory ... to characterize it as anything more than entertaining fiction is misleading

[Rusty Shackleford]

Why?

Are you asking for help trying to reaffirm your commitment to Marxism Leninism? I can't help there I'm afraid but Trotsky isn't much better with Stalin. That's like quitting cocaine for heroin.
at least you can function, and be awesome while on cocaine.





anyways. dont treat stalin like a god, orwell is fun to read but it generally sucks and there where periods of soviet foreign policy which were complete and utter shit.

[Geiseric]

Read the revolution betrayed if you want THE critique on Stalinism, that's the best advice I can give you. even if you hate it, know thy enemy i guess. But most of the division between trotskyism and Stalinism is the same between Maximalism and Minimalism, or Bolshevism and Menshevism. The Stalinists kept diplomatic communications and traded tons with the Nazis up untill Barbarosa... Does that sound like something Lenin would have done? Sure there was the weimar republic trading post WW1, but that was simply to break the versailles treaty and because the N.E.P. kinda required it, however by the late 1920s, no relationship between the hitlerite government and the Stalinist one should of been kept going. Tutchakevsky demanded this and was executed I believe.

[Geiseric]

Btw george orwell was awesome and was pissed because the Stalinists allied with the bourgeoisie instead of the workers. How bout you guys actually read Homage to catalonia instead of being fat headed?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Btw george orwell was awesome and was pissed because the Stalinists allied with the bourgeoisie instead of the workers. How bout you guys actually read Homage to catalonia instead of being fat headed?
yes i have, and i am quite fond of it actually.



OH NO!

[Prometeo liberado]

Btw george orwell was awesome and was pissed because the Stalinists allied with the bourgeoisie instead of the workers. How bout you guys actually read Homage to catalonia instead of being fat headed?

Read it, yawner, but if you want an even better read how about the MI5 file on Orwell and his stellar activities in defense of the Crown. Ya, that's who you want on your side, him and trot. Go try and build your workers paradise with that as a cornerstone.

[Revolution starts with U]

I've always considered Marxism-Leninism to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist...

However, after being linked to articles on the Spanish Civil War, critiques of Stalinism by Tony Cliff and others, reading Orwell... I'm beginning to doubt things.

I watched "Land and Freedom" and I can't believe Stalin would do such a thing, or that his soldiers would.

I also watched a documentary about Trotsky, and it had accusations of Stalin changing the past, by saying that Trotsky "dithered" when in fact Stalin "dithered" to agree with Lenin. And other changes of what actually happened.

I'm confused...is it bourgeois propaganda, or what? Maybe it was Stalin, and not the theories which were wrong...

:confused: help...

I have major problems with your first line here... but we'll leave that aside.

Even Marx and Engels had some... should I say, not so great views. The personal politics of its practitioners doesn't really effect the theory as a whole. Einstein married his cousin, does that say anything about relativity? Tycho Brahe was a blue-blooded nobleman; this does nothing to discredit the theory of planetary motion.

As was said above, don't fall into the cults of personality surrounding these figures (Marx/Lenin/Stalin/etc), focus on the actual theory, and don't be so dogmatic as to think all they said was always right all the time.
Good luck in your journeys comrade :D

Sincerely,
an Ultraleft anarchist

[Questionable]

Meet Lenin, my friend. The guy wasn't anywhere near a worker himself and spent most of his career being a pretentious upper middle class shit while handling the revolution business.

And I guess you're working the coal mines every day, right?

It's almost as disgusting as that twat named Engels who had the nerve to preach about "scientific socialism" while he owned his own factory. Hypocrites, man...

[Manic Impressive]

I was hoping for people's opinion's on the critiques and to get a discussion going...

However, you've shown me that the ultra-left has no way to convey an actual argument.
Fuck you. It's a serious question. What appeals to you about Marxism Leninism? Why do you consider it "to be the only real theoretical line that was true and socialist..."?

Don't you think that information is pertinent?


@Manic Impressive and 9mm: Lay off the flame baiting.
That is not flame baiting.... Not by a long way.....

[Geiseric]

the thing about Lenin being a bourgeois asshole kinda seemed like flame baiting, I don't really care but that's probably what he was talking about since your claim is pointless since he gave up a bourgeois lifestyle in order to be a marxist, his brother was killed as well and I think his familly might of been exiled...

[Manic Impressive]

the thing about Lenin being a bourgeois asshole kinda seemed like flame baiting, I don't really care but that's probably what he was talking about since your claim is pointless since he gave up a bourgeois lifestyle in order to be a marxist, his brother was killed as well and I think his familly might of been exiled...
Show me where I said that? All I said was Trotsky wasn't much better than Stalin. I haven't even mentioned Lenin.

[Ocean Seal]

I watched "Land and Freedom" and I can't believe Stalin would do such a thing, or that his soldiers would.

Of the many reasons that you should change your tendency away from Marxism-Leninism this is probably one of the worst ones.

[Geiseric]

Read it, yawner, but if you want an even better read how about the MI5 file on Orwell and his stellar activities in defense of the Crown. Ya, that's who you want on your side, him and trot. Go try and build your workers paradise with that as a cornerstone.

i would rather have trotsky or george orwell on my side rather than a genocidal dictator... But that's just me. orwell fought against fascism, literally, and you guys are ignoring that his friends were being killed off by P.S.U.C. in spain, Anarchists and Trotskyists worldwide were systematically killed by the GPU, and you're ignoring the great purges as a whole. But the CP GB was already as useless and counter revolutionary as say the CP-USA, KPD or the ISP by the 1930s.

[Althusser]

I could say the same about you. Not exactly sure where this came from...

Manic Impressive deserved the response he got, since his post was anything but helpful, and pretty patronizing. Just like this post of yours.

"I was hoping for people's opinion's on the critiques and to get a discussion going...

However, you've shown me that the ultra-left has no way to convey an actual argument."

Maybe you missed this.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

That is not flame baiting.... Not by a long way.....

Yes, it is: it is posts meant to draw users into a flame/tendency war, a post which has done its mission rather well judging by this thread.

I will compromise on this point: instead of handing out a truckload of verbals and possible infractions I will simply close the thread.

@OP: I would recommend taking my original advice and finding someone in your tendency to talk to.Look in the Marxist-Leninist usergroup.