4 Reasons Why Occupy Wall Street Won’t Change Anything

[Hexen]

http://deadhorseinterchange.com/wordpress/?p=1139

Is this article accurate?

[ed miliband]

i reckon both of these are highly relevant re: occupy

http://libcom.org/library/give-up-activism
http://libcom.org/blog/do-something-critique-activism-28052012

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

All four points there are very good.

Protesting is great for attracting support, but it won't actually change policy because the bourgeoisie doesn't give a fuck -- and this is especially true in the USA. The start of the Iraq War drew the biggest protests in history worldwide, followed by countless more protests. And that did nothing to convince the system.

This, though, was unbelievably silly:


Go out and protest? Well, that does absolutely nothing, since a corporation can just bribe the news outlets to not bring up your protest or just start presenting your protest like a bunch of naked people running around rubbing their dicks in people’s faces. At the end of the day, all you would have done is marched around for a few hours, nobody would have noticed, you might be in jail with a concussion and your eyes (and your balls, as a matter of fact) will feel like they’ve been rolling around in a cactus patch.

As if the corporate media needed a "bribe" to not report objectively.

[x359594]

Moved to OCCUPY WALL STREET and it's offshoots.

[wsg1991]

All four points there are very good.

Protesting is great for attracting support, but it won't actually change policy because the bourgeoisie doesn't give a fuck -- and this is especially true in the USA. The start of the Iraq War drew the biggest protests in history worldwide, followed by countless more protests. And that did nothing to convince the system.

This, though, was unbelievably silly:



As if the corporate media needed a "bribe" to not report objectively.

protests works , it can topple down dictators , it's just you didn't go far enough , but Occupy wallstreet is a good experience . the system won't ignore you for ever .
i can give many examples of real life how protest did change things stopped new laws , we got this big union over here who do that all the time ,

last example would be 9 April which is here Martyrs days , the interior minister forbade protests in Bourguiba street , protesters who were more rightfully called celebrators of this day were beaten down by the police . UGTT , the main union here , said they gonna have their 1 mai (workers day ) celebration there , and warned the government to try and stop him . Magically the law didn't last another week




the bourgeoisie will give a fuck if there is too much at stake ,

[Comrade Marxist Bro]

protests works , it can topple down dictators , it's just you didn't go far enough , but Occupy wallstreet is a good experience . the system won't ignore you for ever

Protests topple dictators when the dictators are put in fear for their lives. The Western ruling class isn't scared of a bunch of demonstrators announcing they're pissed off.

[Os Cangaceiros]

OWS already did change something quite substantial, and that's the nature of the way news regarding the economic crash was perceived. IE blame for the economic crash of 2008 started to be put on the nature of the system we live under, rather than malicious big gub'mint bureaucrats or whatever. The left from 2008-2011 really did a poor job of framing the narrative of what happened, honestly.

[Qavvik]

protests works , it can topple down dictators , it's just you didn't go far enough , but Occupy wallstreet is a good experience . the system won't ignore you for ever .
i can give many examples of real life how protest did change things stopped new laws , we got this big union over here who do that all the time ,

last example would be 9 April which is here Martyrs days , the interior minister forbade protests in Bourguiba street , protesters who were more rightfully called celebrators of this day were beaten down by the police . UGTT , the main union here , said they gonna have their 1 mai (workers day ) celebration there , and warned the government to try and stop him . Magically the law didn't last another week
The article was getting at the idea that protests in the United States are hardly comparable to those in places such as Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, or Iran for the time being. Protests in the middle east actually turn out some results as a consequence of the more personal (or violent/aggressive) nature of the protests.

Protests here are usually (but not always) comprised of liberals/social democrats/progressives/whatever you want to call them who would never think of meeting the authorities with force of any kind. They'd rather hold up signs, yell fluffy slogans, and chit-chat about it afterward at Starbucks while they blog about it on their new MacBook pros.:rolleyes:

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Well, if western capital decides to provoke Ww3 and attack the third largest o producer, Iran, if western society stays its liberal self, we will not see protests; we will see guerilla warfare and riots. We have just seen riots in the UK during relatively peaceful times, imagine what capitalism will face once it fucks up next.

[harte.beest]

I think it was a great article. I especially agree with point that, one of the biggest problems, is that the Occupy movement doesn't have any specific demands, or leaders, for that matter.


The first priority should have been to minimise those stereotypes as much as humanly possible, lest they wish to be ignored.
At this point, the demands were completely removed and instead they were replaced with a legion of college graduates holding up pieces of paper with certain words emphasised. Needless to say, it was now far easier to cherry pick the ones written by the graduates who wasted $20,000 of their tuition on philosophy, art or women’s studies and left college fresh with a fatherless baby; in order to neuter any shred of legitimacy that the movement has and claim that the movement consisted entirely of spoiled children.


Who decided there should be no specific demands, for the whole movement anyway? ......Was it somekind of leader?:ohmy:

[wsg1991]

Protests topple dictators when the dictators are put in fear for their lives. The Western ruling class isn't scared of a bunch of demonstrators announcing they're pissed off.

it was a first protest , seems things need to go much worst in USA , your system has terminal cancer , it will die soon , the time of recession is an opportunity for radical groups , either good leftists ones ( whatever their ideology is ) , the failure of USA left will allow the rise of extreme right wing ,

[wsg1991]

The article was getting at the idea that protests in the United States are hardly comparable to those in places such as Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, or Iran for the time being. Protests in the middle east actually turn out some results as a consequence of the more personal (or violent/aggressive) nature of the protests.

Protests here are usually (but not always) comprised of liberals/social democrats/progressives/whatever you want to call them who would never think of meeting the authorities with force of any kind. They'd rather hold up signs, yell fluffy slogans, and chit-chat about it afterward at Starbucks while they blog about it on their new MacBook pros.:rolleyes:

In Tunisia people were faced by batons and tear gaz , then by 9mm occasionally but mostly by Military grade 5.56 mm bull-pup , there is no comparison between this and your ' police brutality ', pepper spray and tear gaz ( not expired animal control gaz used here ) are a joke compared to what other people face .

anyway we can tolerate those soft people you have there , the problem with this kind of protests that the first offer by power is always a joke , wait for the second offer always

it's a good start , you see the system is going downhill , more violent protests will happen will follow don't worry

and some people talked corporate media , fuck the corporate media , there is internet and alternative media ,

[Imposter Marxist]

I don't support the USA, but I don't support the Occupy Movement either. I support the workers instead

[wsg1991]

I don't support the USA, but I don't support the Occupy Movement either. I support the workers instead

i am tired of those people playing ultimate super ultra left here .

[Geiseric]

Well there's consensus, and there's the moron black blocers. That's what ruined occupy. And there's a rejection of "identity politics," the whole horse shit theory of "differentiation of tactics," and no democratic centralism. those are 5 reasons why "occupy," was a failure.

[Ele'ill]

I dunno what's gonna happen with 'occupy' but a lot of the points brought up in that article, in other articles, and within conversations on the topic don't take into account that all of this is a learning process, a new one with a steep learning curve and with this in mind it's only really been a year of actual accumulative action and learning. To think that if this list were to have been met/answered to the first time that there wouldn't be the possibility of fading out into nothing or immediate catastrophic failure is naive.


The US isn't gonna look like a december 2008 Greece situation in a year. It's gonna take continued agitation and action and escalation attempts on all fronts. Occupy was also way too many things to simply say 'well THAT didn't work'. That doesn't make sense. *if anything I think Occupy was the big excuse to get started

[Drosophila]

Reason #2 is stupid. There shouldn't be any demands, as that would make it a reformist movement.

[blake 3:17]

I dunno what's gonna happen with 'occupy' but a lot of the points brought up in that article, in other articles, and within conversations on the topic don't take into account that all of this is a learning process, a new one with a steep learning curve and with this in mind it's only really been a year of actual accumulative action and learning. To think that if this list were to have been met/answered to the first time that there wouldn't be the possibility of fading out into nothing or immediate catastrophic failure is naive.


The US isn't gonna look like a december 2008 Greece situation in a year. It's gonna take continued agitation and action and escalation attempts on all fronts. Occupy was also way too many things to simply say 'well THAT didn't work'. That doesn't make sense. *if anything I think Occupy was the big excuse to get started


One of the problems that the 1960s New Left had was that it expected EVERYTHING to change RIGHT NOW. Occupy has started exactly what you describe -- a gigantic learning process naming the system and challenging people on how they relate to it, what their place is in it, and asking how it can be changed.

How this plays out is bound to be uneven. Broad social change happens over years.

[Althusser]

Liberals, to an extent, undertsand the class gap, and will point to greed as a problem, but they refuse to participate in class struggle. It's like they don't want to change anything...

I was at Occupy Wall Street six or seven times. I was in Zucotti park the first day, September 17th 2011. It was composed of mostly college students that grouped up in circles and discussed things together. It very quickly degredated. The college students quickly vanished. The bums with no political arguments moved in; and subsequentally, so did the media.

People were doing yoga in rags. There were hippie drum circles. One woman blindfolded herself with a sign that said she would stay blindfolded for a whole day or some bullshit. People were taking donations and handing out 9/11 conspiracy dvds. People started to sell "99%" buttons for a dollar...

The last day I went, it was a fucking fiasco. People were selling custom $10, $20 occupy wall street "we are the 99%" sweaters and shirts. I was disgusted at the expoitation. My friend laughed said I reminded him of Jesus when the temple turned into a market place. Anyway, most people didn't see much wrong with what was going on. There was a booth set up that said "Become A Marxist Today!" I walked over, and they were selling packets of the manifesto and other works for $5.

I heard one guy actually say, "This is why socialism will never work in America." I was about to say something, but decided there was no point. I proceeded to enter the subway and haven't gone back since.

The only two groups that I had a conversation with were from "The Militant" newspaper and "The Socialist Alternative" newspaper. The last day I was there, there was a 65 to 70 year old man walking around and talking about how Protests were different in the 60s. We got shit done. Now everyone's just trying to sell you shit.

He proceeded to walk over to each booth and say Are you selling shit? Are you selling shit? Are you selling shit?

Unfortunatley, the most important part of that protest that I participated in, was taking a picture with Immortal Technique. Shit was so cash.

[smk]

The reason that Occupy is valuable is their ability to bring attention to issues which aren't even a part of the conversation for the vast majority of Americans. Occupations are in large public places in order to maximize visibility, not because a few people yelling and holding signs is actually going to change policy. Once enough people understand and sympathize with what Occupy has to say, then will be the time that a new movement of direct action can happen which will bring real change. You can't have a successful revolution without mass support. Politicians aren't going to change until they know that they can't get away with it anymore.

Right now, occupy is shit. 80+% of people are clowns while the minority are sincerely determined, sensible people. Something has to change in Occupy's methodology which will stop attracting hippies and start attracting average Americans.

[ellipsis]

I see the spirit and banner of occupy inspiring people to do a lot of great direct actions, building occupations and foreclosure defense, etc.

Also I see a lot of people gaining valuable organizing and street-level experience. There is SOME kind of protest movement in the US finally, and while its not perfect I would say in the context of a broader historical struggle, occupy is quite significant and FAR from dead or dying.

[A Marxist Historian]

I see the spirit and banner of occupy inspiring people to do a lot of great direct actions, building occupations and foreclosure defense, etc.

Also I see a lot of people gaining valuable organizing and street-level experience. There is SOME kind of protest movement in the US finally, and while its not perfect I would say in the context of a broader historical struggle, occupy is quite significant and FAR from dead or dying.

Well, it may have gotten the ball rolling, we'll see.

Perhaps one of the best things to come out of the now-over OWS experience is a clear demonstration that anarchistic "horizontal" methods just don't work. Hopefully it has helped a lot of new activists to realize the inadequacy of anarchistic methods, and gotten them thinking about more serious revolutionary methods.

And at least Oakland OWS has drawn attention among the radical studentry to the fact that there is such a thing as a working class, and that it has power--unlike them.

-M.H.-

[workerist]

that article is a cynical piece of garbage so i won't comment on it, but OWS has already been co-opted by the establishment and the trade unions. you know your movement has become little more than a vehicle for the Democratic Party when you have moveon.org start a "99% spring" group.

i think morris berman was right when he said OWS was little more than a movement led by white upper middle class professionals who just want their share of the economic pie. these people do not want any radical transformation of society. they're just upset the plutocracy won't let them have all their toys (can't get all those iphones & ipads if your liberal arts degree won't land you a nice job!).

the hope is that some of the people involved in this movement get radicalized. once the disappointment sets in and people realize the politics of OWS are too conformist they will (hopefully) move towards a more socialist orientation.

[Sea]

There is one positive thing about Occupy. It shows quite massive discontent with capitalism. I'm sure many occupiers feel only contempt with capitalism as it is now, not realizing that their woes are (largely) a direct result of capitalism itself, but it's sure a start.


Reason #2 is stupid. There shouldn't be any demands, as that would make it a reformist movement.
The mainstream left ,which most of these protesters likely are a part of, is reformist.

[Drosophila]

The mainstream left ,which most of these protesters likely are a part of, is reformist.

True, but making a list of "demands" is not the right way to go. Occupy needs to show the world that it is completely dissatisfied with the system.

[Ocean Seal]

Anyone who thinks that #Occupy hasn't changed anything hasn't gone out in the last year. Class consciousness in the USA in the last year has changed a lot. People are actually changing the way they view potential alternatives to the system. It used to be the typical democrat,republican,lolbertarian narrative, but now people seem to at least consider some leftist ideals.

[Jimmie Higgins]

http://deadhorseinterchange.com/wordpress/?p=1139

Is this article accurate?

No I don't think the article is correct, it's fatalistic and based on a lot of superficial impressions.

"Protests don't work" - work at accomplishing what? Protests don't change regimes by themselves or after some one-off march - ok, I agree with that.

Protests can't help rally and organize an opposition? Protests can't counter what a regime claims is the mass opinion of the people? They can't give confidence to a popular opposition? Protests can't change laws or policies? All this is not only historically incorrect, it's incorrect in terms of recent living history!

From small protests in the US to mass protests in Egypt, these manifestations have done many of these things. Protests stoped anti-immigration laws in the US and gave confidence to an invisible part of the workforce which has been demonized for years. Protests exposed the lie of unanimous pro-war sentiment in the US which then created the potential for a movement. OWS showed that angry American's weren't Tea-Party cooks and didn't accept austerity.

Protest is often the pre-condition for workers organizing themselves and while a march alone can't change the system, it was the mass protests in Egypt which led to port-workers choking the regime to the point that they gave up Mubarak. Workers can change the system, and protests play a part in helping people develop the ability to do this.

I could go on, but I'm short on time so I'll leave it there.

[The Douche]

Well, it may have gotten the ball rolling, we'll see.

Perhaps one of the best things to come out of the now-over OWS experience is a clear demonstration that anarchistic "horizontal" methods just don't work. Hopefully it has helped a lot of new activists to realize the inadequacy of anarchistic methods, and gotten them thinking about more serious revolutionary methods.

And at least Oakland OWS has drawn attention among the radical studentry to the fact that there is such a thing as a working class, and that it has power--unlike them.

-M.H.-

Wow, it is amazing how people can draw such insanely different conclusions from the same experience...

[Ele'ill]

True, but making a list of "demands" is not the right way to go. Occupy needs to show the world that it is completely dissatisfied with the system.

Occupy isn't completely dissatisfied with the system though.

[Comrade Mitja]

Occupy Wall Street reminds me of whale wars,its total drama all the time.

[Drosophila]

Occupy isn't completely dissatisfied with the system though.

A lot of people within it aren't, but that doesn't mean that their opinion is the only one that has to be made public.

[ellipsis]

Well, it may have gotten the ball rolling, we'll see.

Perhaps one of the best things to come out of the now-over OWS experience is a clear demonstration that anarchistic "horizontal" methods just don't work. Hopefully it has helped a lot of new activists to realize the inadequacy of anarchistic methods, and gotten them thinking about more serious revolutionary methods.

And at least Oakland OWS has drawn attention among the radical studentry to the fact that there is such a thing as a working class, and that it has power--unlike them.

-M.H.-

How does it prove that horizontal organizing doesn't work?

[cynicles]

Meh, all the government needs to do to crush occupy is wage a war against some new country and role out a shitload of nationist propaganda. Then find some way to use the hero worship of the US military to make the OWS protester look evil in the eyes of americans. Americans are waaaaay to succeptible to nationalism and militarism.

[Bostana]

I had no clue that the occupy movement was still going on.

[The Douche]

Meh, all the government needs to do to crush occupy is wage a war against some new country and role out a shitload of nationist propaganda. Then find some way to use the hero worship of the US military to make the OWS protester look evil in the eyes of americans. Americans are waaaaay to succeptible to nationalism and militarism.

Do you not remember the millions of americans who participated in the anti-war movement?

[A Marxist Historian]

How does it prove that horizontal organizing doesn't work?

Because it didn't. OWS is pretty much dead at this point, leaving little behind except, maybe, some changes in consciousness hopefully.

The "horizontalism" and sham democracy of OWS, which in practice meant whoever started up an OWS had control over it and was able to veto more radical alternatives, was one of its downfalls. (In Oakland, you had a radical clique running it which on occasion vetoed the soggier elements, not always democratically there either but that I don't care too much about.)

An even bigger problem being the very idea of a movement of "the 99%," populism not class consciousness, with all too many OWS folk actually thinking that cops were "part of the 99%," sometimes even after getting their heads beat in by said cops.

A movement that comes together in a public square like a flash mob, organized on the Internet if at all, can't possibly have the social weight to accomplish anything really. Oakland OWS's bruising experiences with the Bay Area labor movement in general and the ILWU in particular illustrate that.

-M.H.-

[MuscularTophFan]

Occupy Wallstreet is a big fucking joke. It used to be relevant but not any more. They are going no where and fast. They need to drop all of this hippie bullshit shitting in the fucking party all fucking day long. Maybe if OWS actually had a fucking leader to lead the revolution they could actually get some where but no they instead invited every crack addict and edgy teenager anonymous loser to their rallies. The youth in Amercia are wayyyyy to fucking stupid and lazy to organize a mass workers revolution. The best OWS can do now is try to get some political influence and get rid of Citizens United.

[#FF0000]

Occupy Wallstreet is a big fucking joke. It used to be relevant but not any more. They are going no where and fast. They need to drop all of this hippie bullshit shitting in the fucking party all fucking day long. Maybe if OWS actually had a fucking leader to lead the revolution they could actually get some where but no they instead invited every crack addict and edgy teenager anonymous loser to their rallies. The youth in Amercia are wayyyyy to fucking stupid and lazy to organize a mass workers revolution. The best OWS can do now is try to get some political influence and get rid of Citizens United.

Nah actually the liberals who were griping v. much like you are now about the same things pretty much killed Occupy. Or had a hand in it.

It was destined to die a heat death, imo.

But then there's the entire West Coast showing everyone how it's done, if we'd pay attention.

[SocialistBooks]

Well, as someone who participated and helped in organizing one of the local occupations I can testify that while there is a lot (TONS!) of BS, that it shouldn't be surprising considering the milieu that consists of first time activists, lifestyle anarchists, anarchists, Anonymous supporters, zeitgeist supporters, secret Stalinists (a total nightmare), IWW members, socialist alternative, WIL, SEIU members, liberals, new age hippies, spiritualists, AIM, a handful of libertarians, and anti-social internet weirdos who finally decided to get out and try their hands at organizing. It is a mess, there is no disputing that.

But I think the critiques of the Occupy movement (I actually wouldn't call it a "movement" at all) about being a leaderless and position-less movement are easily proved to be false. As much as the people involved don't acknowledge it there are individuals (often non-elected) that obviously take leadership positions. Since the early days when groups of us were physically encamped there have always been personalities that step forward and fill the gaps (sometimes a good thing, sometimes a bad thing). As far a supposed lack of positions, the movement is overflowing with positions. It's the USA, and anyone who has spent a good deal of time in the USA knows that people here always think they have the answers. On an average day at the occupy sites I could spent a few hours there (I work nights) and have a dozen separate conversations with randoms about what they thought the "problem" was (and I always did my part to raise the issues of class society and capitalism). I think the issue that people seem to have with "demands" is that they misunderstand the "structure" of occupy ... it is not a group, It is not a movement, it is milieu consisting of a whole bunch of groups and individuals that don't agree with each other and largely see no need to attempt to force agreement with each other concerning any prescriptive measures.

The form occupy took (at least locally) arose mostly because of the lack of a experience of the initial organizers, many of whom showed up with a packet from NYC detailing consensus based decision making and tried to hold mass meetings, and that a great number of experienced activists were unwilling to step outside their social circles and participate in actions with a great number of brand new people that they didn't know. As much as activists don't like to admit this, leftist organizing is just as much a social scene of friends and acquaintances who party, sleep with each other, relax with one another, etc. (just like any social scene, a local music scene for example). When occupy started it caught A LOT of established activists by surprise and many of them were either hesitant or outright resistant to participate because the local occupations were being organized (somewhat poorly) by people who they had never met before and had no experience with this sort of activity.

I got involved because after a long lapse in activism I saw something that people were excited about and I wanted to be a part of it. What I found was that here was a significant portion of young people who were not as apathetic to the conditions of modern capitalist society (and they could articulate this to varying degrees) as I had been led to believe. In many ways they were more aware of the contradictions then I was when I was their age.

The melding of the different ideologies within occupy has resulted in some interesting events, for example when was the last time that you saw SEIU block traffic? Yeah, I know, hardly revolutionary but defiantly significant, defiantly a shift tactically (although not politically). Nationally, direct action is back on the table (even though the goals of such actions are often ill defined) and the General Strike (once called an act of "civil war") has been used to mobilize thousands.

Now, I'm not some cheerleader for Occupy, it has TONS of problems and few ways to deal with it owing to it's near total lack of coordination or organization on any level except the individual affiliated working groups (even many of these are dysfunctional). But several characterizations I have read here made by some of the previous posters are simply glossing over a very malleable and amorphous milieu of groups and individuals (not simply "liberals with I-pads").

I am especially grateful in regards to Occupy for one thing. Locally, in the Twin Cities, before there was such a thing as Occupy, when someone wanted to get involved with left politics they frequently had to go through one of FRSO's many front groups (sort of their M.O. is to covertly take over liberal activist groups and they have gotten quite good at over the last decade) like SDS, MIRAC, etc. But since Occupy there is a whole new crop of local activists who never had to go through the FRSO organizing model and are more apt to engage in direct action, and more willing to seek alternatives to the (my opinion) somewhat paranoid cold-warrior-esque model presented by our local weird Stalinist sect.

I would be interested in hearing from others about the effects that the Occupations had on the local level.

[ComingUpForAir]

If it wasn't for Occupy I would never have become a Marxist -- after it broke out I followed it on the internet for months and realized I had to study more.

[cynicles]

Do you not remember the millions of americans who participated in the anti-war movement?
Yes, I also remember how before the anti-war movement there was a brewing movement against the WTO/IMF/WB and it wen't *poof* as soon as the new adventures in mespotamia began, then an anti-war movemnt sprung out until Obama got elected and *poof* their it went. Most of it's support gone in a matter of a few naiive monthes. I also remember how easily the wider public bent to the crass nationalist propoganda of the neo-cons. Based on this track record I'm not holding my breath until these movements can begin formulating a strong cohesive critique of both the domestic and foreign issues. Until that point half of them will probably still believe the liberal imperialist garbage flying out of humanitarian hawk's mouthes.