CP of Greece, Between two tough battles[En., Ru., Sp., Ar.]

[Panda Tse Tung]

http://www.solidnet.org/greece-communist-party-of-greece-/3021-cp-of-greece-between-two-tough-battlesen-ru-sp-ar

Thoughts?

[Grenzer]

The biggest battle of the KKE today seems to be: Should our main line be reformism or nationalism? Choices, choices!

[Serge's Fist]

One thing the KKE kinda get right though is that a left government would be a disaster for the left and the working class though they're not coming up with anything better.

[Panda Tse Tung]

The biggest battle of the KKE today seems to be: Should our main line be reformism or nationalism? Choices, choices!
Thats a liberal interpetation of the article. Are you reffering tot the KKE's anti-EU stance?



One thing the KKE kinda get right though is that a left government would be a disaster for the left and the working class though they're not coming up with anything better.


So, they dont have an alternative ergo the left government idea is the only option despite it being a disaster?
Since when is it the Communists task to solve the capitalist crisis? We offer an alternative and in the mean time defend the rights of the working class. Simple task me thinks.

[Serge's Fist]

So, they dont have an alternative ergo the left government idea is the only option despite it being a disaster?
Since when is it the Communists task to solve the capitalist crisis? We offer an alternative and in the mean time defend the rights of the working class. Simple task me thinks.

It is never the task of communists to solve the capitalist crisis though the Stalinist CP's have had a good try over the last 80 years. The alternative offered up by the KKE is nationalism tinged with social democracy. It's big sell is about leaving Europe and defending the people's independence thus socialism in one country. What communists need is unity within Europe, we need continental wide industrial unions, a Communist Party of Europe and a programme of working class unity not separation.

[Panda Tse Tung]

It is never the task of communists to solve the capitalist crisis though the Stalinist CP's have had a good try over the last 80 years.'Stalinist' parties hardly ever participated in crisis-time coalitions, exceptions being post-WW2 Europe. Besides this it is hardly relevant what other parties have done in other periods of time. We're discussing the KKE in this time.


The alternative offered up by the KKE is nationalism tinged with social democracy. It's big sell is about leaving Europe and defending the people's independence thus socialism in one country. If you dont understand why Greece should leave the EU i suggest you have a lot of reading up to in regards to this Imperialist bullwark. The greek situation is quite special and not at all to be compared to Britain. The chances of civil war are significant right now, whereas in Britain the chances of passing out are bigger (yes, this is a drinking habbits reference).


What communists need is unity within Europe, we need continental wide industrial unions, a Communist Party of Europe and a programme of working class unity not separation. Sounds great, i'll tell the Greeks to wait a bit till you guys are ready for the whole revolution thing.

[Serge's Fist]

It is very relevant what Stalinism has done to the chances of working class power. If you can't learn the lessons then you're more likely to repeat them. Leaving a capitalist Europe for a capitalist Greece is a bit like shopping at Tesco instead of Asda, it would be a superficial change. Without a strong European revolutionary movement any coming to power of the left would end in disaster.

[Panda Tse Tung]

It is very relevant what Stalinism has done to the chances of working class power. If you can't learn the lessons then you're more likely to repeat them.

How exactly did these coalitions endanger working class power?
What exact lessons are we supposed to learn from these coalitions?
Maybe there we're mistakes yes, and these are lessons yes. But coalition participation is not bad under all circumstances and the KKE is fully rejecting it under these circumstances so i do not see the relevance.

"A large section of the workers as well as a section of the party’s voters, under the pressure of the exacerbation of the popular problems, the misleading slogans concerning the renegotiation of the memorandum[1] (http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-05-23-arthro#0.1__ftn1) and the immediate relief for the workers, could not understand and take on board the difference between a government and real power.”


Leaving a capitalist Europe for a capitalist Greece is a bit like shopping at Tesco instead of Asda, it would be a superficial change.

Have you read the article? It's quite more specific, leaving the EU is A demand, not THE demand.

"The KKE reveals to the people that it is necessary to have a people’s and workers’ movement that will struggle for the rupture and the overthrow of the choices of capital and the EU and to promote the coordination at a European level not throughnegotiations but through strengthening the workers’ people’s movement in its struggle against the EU, in the line of rupture."



Without a strong European revolutionary movement any coming to power of the left would end in disaster.

Why?
A. the situation in my country is different then in yours, we have different cultures, backgrounds, economies, etc... How the hell will that work?
B. international solidarity is not impossible with national movements as history has thought us.

[Serge's Fist]

The post-war coalitions in Western Europe stamped on working class activity you only have to look at the role of the PCF within the factory occupations after defeat of the occupying forces. The KKE of course has a much bloodier history in the immediate aftermath of the second-world war where they not only snatched defeat from victory but also killed internationalists.

What this comes down to is the premise that you could have socialism in one country, the working class may take power but how long can they keep it without a continental and world revolution?

[A Marxist Historian]

How exactly did these coalitions endanger working class power?
What exact lessons are we supposed to learn from these coalitions?
Maybe there we're mistakes yes, and these are lessons yes. But coalition participation is not bad under all circumstances and the KKE is fully rejecting it under these circumstances so i do not see the relevance.

And just what circumstances are those? The KKE, as well as all the CPs of Europe and elsewhere, have long histories of coalitions with bourgeois parties, and the results were uniformly disastrous. Especially after WWII.

So the KKE is rejecting coalitionism and talking socialism (at least on the Internet) *right now.* Good, if I were Greek, I think I'd probably vote KKE on June 17. But what about next month or the month after that?

The KKE is rejecting coalitionism primarily because there are no coalition partners out there they'd want to coalesce with at the moment, and last of all SYRIZA, who they have been at war with since the leaders of SYRIZA split from the KKE decades ago.

But, as class struggle in Greece intensifies and social polarization accelerates, especially if you get a SYRIZA government on June 17, which would quickly disgrace itself through betrayals, sooner or later the SYRIZA balloon will pop and mostly likely a "progressive anti-fascist liberal" bourgeois party will appear for the KKE to form a "Popular Front" with, and repeat all its old betrayals.

-M.H.-


"A large section of the workers as well as a section of the party’s voters, under the pressure of the exacerbation of the popular problems, the misleading slogans concerning the renegotiation of the memorandum[1] (http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-05-23-arthro#0.1__ftn1) and the immediate relief for the workers, could not understand and take on board the difference between a government and real power.”


Have you read the article? It's quite more specific, leaving the EU is A demand, not THE demand.

"The KKE reveals to the people that it is necessary to have a people’s and workers’ movement that will struggle for the rupture and the overthrow of the choices of capital and the EU and to promote the coordination at a European level not throughnegotiations but through strengthening the workers’ people’s movement in its struggle against the EU, in the line of rupture."



Why?
A. the situation in my country is different then in yours, we have different cultures, backgrounds, economies, etc... How the hell will that work?
B. international solidarity is not impossible with national movements as history has thought us.

[FSL]

If to some people leaving an imperialist union of capitalist states to build socialism (while of course showing solidarity to worker's movements in other countries and expecting/hoping that radical changes would soon follow elsewhere) is a sign of nationalism then that just shows in what an awful position we find ourselves. And not mainly because we're not that strong but because we're misguided.


There is a communist party in Cyprus, a country that has of course problems of its own, but still. There is a communist president. They participate in the EU, they manage capitalism. What kind of resistance did that bring? How many were "uplifted" to hear of a communist president in Cyprus? What difference did it make in the everyday lives of the people there? In capitalism, capitalists rule. They decide wages, prices, they decide who works and when and where. Cyprus is now one step away from also signing an agreement with the European Commision and the IMF. Will it make a difference if a communist president signs the deal, would that sweeten the pill?

Saying you want radical changes in Europe sounds very nice but what it effectively does is pushing away radical changes in your country. So far away that even the notion of radical changes ends up a joke.
If we have a Syriza government tomorrow, a government that will face the capitalist crisis by putting hopes on Hollande and his grand "growth plan", a government that will leave ownership of the means of production to capitalists and that in the end will end up begging them to invest, how will that government inspire people across Europe? It wouldn't.

[Geiseric]

The amount of menshevism here is making me sick, this thread is stocked full of revolutionary defensism. let's leave the eu and all of our problems will go away! that's so opportunist for a stance to take. the line should be, overthrow capitalism, unconditionally! As soon as we can, that's what the line should be. Not some attempt to gain power in a bourgeois government.

[Luís Henrique]

The amount of menshevism here is making me sick, this thread is stocked full of revolutionary defensism. let's leave the eu and all of our problems will go away! that's so opportunist for a stance to take. the line should be, overthrow capitalism, unconditionally! As soon as we can, that's what the line should be. Not some attempt to gain power in a bourgeois government.

Unhappily, as we know, we cannot overthrow capitalism within the limits of (a quite small, strongly dependent on international commerce) nation State.

Luís Henrique

[Panda Tse Tung]

And just what circumstances are those? Circumstances in which CP's are too weak to overthrow the government but where they can defend and improve the rights of the working class and the position of the CP. Left-wing communism by Lenin deals with this issue extensively.



But, as class struggle in Greece intensifies and social polarization accelerates, especially if you get a SYRIZA government on June 17, which would quickly disgrace itself through betrayals, sooner or later the SYRIZA balloon will pop and mostly likely a "progressive anti-fascist liberal" bourgeois party will appear for the KKE to form a "Popular Front" with, and repeat all its old betrayals.Nice theory, we will see when we get there. Only then can we make a good analyses instead of discussing hypothetical scenario's.


The amount of menshevism here is making me sick, this thread is stocked full of revolutionary defensism. let's leave the eu and all of our problems will go away! that's so opportunist for a stance to take. the line should be, overthrow capitalism, unconditionally! As soon as we can, that's what the line should be. Not some attempt to gain power in a bourgeois government. Leaving the EU is a step forward. Additionally:
"This is the reason why the KKE promotes its political proposal in a comprehensive fashion, which it specialized for the elections on the 6th of May in the slogan: “ Out of the EU, with people’s power and the unilateral cancellation of the debt.”"

And overthrowing capitalism ASAP is a ridiculous strategy, overthrowing capitalism when possible and the masses of people are behind the notion of revolution, sure. Otherwise it's just radicalism and adventurism which wont lead to anything usefull. Comments like these are completely alienated from working class reality, shouting revolution wont make a revolution.

Additionally on the power in a bourgeouis government comment:
"the political proposal of the KKE regarding the struggle for working class-people’s power will find itself at the core of the people in the next period, as the difference between a government and real people’s power will become even clearer (...)"

Edit:

Unhappily, as we know, we cannot overthrow capitalism within the limits of (a quite small, strongly dependent on international commerce) nation State.


Of course Greece has been made dependent, as such it can partly reverse this dependence. Of course not in a period of one year, it is however a possibility.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Thats a liberal interpetation of the article. Are you reffering tot the KKE's anti-EU stance?



So, they dont have an alternative ergo the left government idea is the only option despite it being a disaster?
Since when is it the Communists task to solve the capitalist crisis? We offer an alternative and in the mean time defend the rights of the working class. Simple task me thinks.

The communists' task is to solve the capitalist crisis -- with proletarian revolution. And the KKE certainly isn't about to foster anything like that.

[Panda Tse Tung]

The communists' task is to solve the capitalist crisis -- with proletarian revolution. And the KKE certainly isn't about to foster anything like that.

No shit, their not strong enough, but at least strong enough to build a solid basis for a future revolution contrary to the fringe groups you support (unless your username is a misleading one and your not a Trotskyist). This means that somewhere along the way the KKE did something right, and these groups did not with their great theories. How about linking practise to theory and realizing shouting revolution is not enough?

[Rusty Shackleford]

talking as if the kke is all about soic and how they are big bad stalinists is going to give me an aneurysm.

leaving the eu is not akin to digging a giant trench between greece and the rest of europe and putting alligators in it. the eu is simply an economic and political formation of the bourgeoisie. a communist party of euorpe would be tasked with destroying the eu as well!

[Geiseric]

It isn't about how strong the KKE party is, but if you call yourself a Leninist you need to push unconditionally for the end of capitalism. If the greek proletariat isn't in a revolutionary position now, they never will be. The KKE is unpopular because of the stances it takes and the betrayals that it's done towards the rest of the greek proletariat. It needs to say "Nationalise all property," for its economic plan, not "leave the EU." That stance somehow shows that the KKE thinks that the problems greece has are somehow particular to greece. If it wants to fix the crisis, it needs to work on building an EU wide movement with french, english, irish, russian, german, italian, spanish and other comrades. but trying to isolate greece from the web of finance capital, and canceling the debt will result in nothing good... maybe an EU wide depression, in which Golden Dawn and other Nazis will be in a better position to putsch the governments.

[A Marxist Historian]

Unhappily, as we know, we cannot overthrow capitalism within the limits of (a quite small, strongly dependent on international commerce) nation State.

Luís Henrique

Depends on what you mean by that. It it possible to establish socialism in Greece all by itself? No. But, if by "overthrow capitalism" you mean overthrow the capitalist state and bring the workers to power, not only can you, in fact that is the only way it can happen.

The revolution has to start somewhere, it's not going to happen simultaneously everywhere at once.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Circumstances in which CP's are too weak to overthrow the government but where they can defend and improve the rights of the working class and the position of the CP. Left-wing communism by Lenin deals with this issue extensively.


Nice theory, we will see when we get there. Only then can we make a good analyses instead of discussing hypothetical scenario's.

Leaving the EU is a step forward. Additionally:
"This is the reason why the KKE promotes its political proposal in a comprehensive fashion, which it specialized for the elections on the 6th of May in the slogan: “ Out of the EU, with people’s power and the unilateral cancellation of the debt.”"

And overthrowing capitalism ASAP is a ridiculous strategy, overthrowing capitalism when possible and the masses of people are behind the notion of revolution, sure. Otherwise it's just radicalism and adventurism which wont lead to anything usefull. Comments like these are completely alienated from working class reality, shouting revolution wont make a revolution.

Additionally on the power in a bourgeouis government comment:
"the political proposal of the KKE regarding the struggle for working class-people’s power will find itself at the core of the people in the next period, as the difference between a government and real people’s power will become even clearer (...)"

Edit:


Of course Greece has been made dependent, as such it can partly reverse this dependence. Of course not in a period of one year, it is however a possibility.

Greece has been dependent on bigger countries, and deeply in debt for that matter, since the year 1838 I think it was when the big powers decided to establish an independent Greek state under a Bavarian monarch. Greece has always been a pawn of bigger and stronger countries.

Its dependency is irreversible, it would probably still be pretty dependent in the socialist future.

Exactly what "real peoples power" means is to say the least ambiguous. What Greece needs is workers power.

Leaving the EU would be a very good thing, the EU is sucking Greece dry. But it by itself would solve none of Greece's problems. It would simply remove the EU's fangs from its neck, and then Greece would be just another poor country ravaged by the world capitalist crisis all of whose problems are unsolvable under capitalism--and which nobody would be willing to loan any money to.

Of course now, the bankers are only willing to loan Greece just enough money to keep paying the debts--to the bankers. Like Mafia loansharks.

-M.H.-

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

No shit, their not strong enough, but at least strong enough to build a solid basis for a future revolution contrary to the fringe groups you support (unless your username is a misleading one and your not a Trotskyist). This means that somewhere along the way the KKE did something right, and these groups did not with their great theories. How about linking practise to theory and realizing shouting revolution is not enough?
Being a mass party that fails to fight for revolution is hardly a badge of honor. That is the sad history of the Greek Communist Party. They will not only act too slowly when the time is right, they will serve as an impediment to revolution. And I would so LOVE to be proven wrong about this.

[A Marxist Historian]

No shit, their not strong enough, but at least strong enough to build a solid basis for a future revolution contrary to the fringe groups you support (unless your username is a misleading one and your not a Trotskyist). This means that somewhere along the way the KKE did something right, and these groups did not with their great theories. How about linking practise to theory and realizing shouting revolution is not enough?

Did the KKE do something right somewhere along the line? The KKE is the oldest political party in Greece.

It established itself as the party of the working class in the 1920s. Its leaders back then were mostly kicked out by Stalin and became Trotskyists. So Greek Trotskyists have a better claim to that heritage than does the KKE.

Until WWII, Greece was one of the fairly few countries where, despite the heavy weight in the world of the Soviet Union led by Stalin, it was unclear whether workers preferred the KKE to its Trotskyist opponents. But the victory of the USSR at Stalingrad gave the KKE the image of being the great anti-fascist party of the working class.

And the KKE sold out the Greek Revolution to "the allies," forming a coalition government with Churchill's puppets. Stalin had decided that Greek should stay capitalist, and made an agreement with Churchill to that effect. In person, Churchill and Stalin wrote down on a piece of paper who would get which Eastern European countries. The KKE during the anti-Nazi resistance movement and during this coalition regime in collaboration with the ex-Nazi collaborators literally murdered most Greek Trotskyists.

So when Churchill established a military dictatorship and unleashed former Nazi collaborators on the KKE and the Greek people, Stalin had no real objection to that. He was more concerned about keeping Tito in line. And, the best revolutionaries having been murdered by the KKE, and the Greek workers demoralized by this, the right wing military dictatorship won.

That is the true heritage of the KKE.

-M.H.-

[Luís Henrique]

Depends on what you mean by that. It it possible to establish socialism in Greece all by itself? No. But, if by "overthrow capitalism" you mean overthrow the capitalist state and bring the workers to power, not only can you, in fact that is the only way it can happen.

The revolution has to start somewhere, it's not going to happen simultaneously everywhere at once.

Sure, but that has to be clear; it is not possible to go ahead under the illusion that the problems posed by capitalism can be solved within the limits of nation-States.

The strategy naturally has to be to foster international revolution through revolution in Europe, and revolution in Europe through revolution in the European periphery (and of course, it has to be understood that a political revolution in Greece immediately poses the question of a revolution in Portugal/Ireland/Spain). That cannot be made upon a Greek nationalist political program.

Luís Henrique

[Serge's Fist]

No shit, their not strong enough, but at least strong enough to build a solid basis for a future revolution contrary to the fringe groups you support (unless your username is a misleading one and your not a Trotskyist). This means that somewhere along the way the KKE did something right, and these groups did not with their great theories. How about linking practise to theory and realizing shouting revolution is not enough?

I think you will find murdering internationalists is a good reason why the KKE has a stronger historical basis that the internationalists groups. But if you were to judge a party on its size alone I am sure you will be happily calling for a vote for Syrizia?

[Geiseric]

Wasn't Lenin an internationalist?

[Ravachol]

'Stalinist' parties hardly ever participated in crisis-time coalitions, exceptions being post-WW2 Europe.


Every party from the PCE to the PCI to the PCF has been a pillar of Capital in the transition from fordism to post-fordism after which they died off in irrelevance.



The greek situation is quite special and not at all to be compared to Britain. The chances of civil war are significant right now, whereas in Britain the chances of passing out are bigger (yes, this is a drinking habbits reference).


What is civil war according to you? And why would that be a bad thing per se?



Sounds great, i'll tell the Greeks to wait a bit till you guys are ready for the whole revolution thing.

Revolution is not an event anyway. Capitalism cannot be abolished FOR communism through a transitional phase that is neither capitalist nor communist, it can only be abolished BY communism.



Circumstances in which CP's are too weak to overthrow the government but where they can defend and improve the rights of the working class and the position of the CP. Left-wing communism by Lenin deals with this issue extensively.


'The infantile disorder' by Lenin is a piece of bullshit garbage. The situation you describe is exactly the situation the KKE is in right now and the situation all previous CPs (from the collaborationist PCF to the 'either with the state or with the red brigades' PCI) were in. And that was exactly what they did, manage capital and act as it's safety valve.



And overthrowing capitalism ASAP is a ridiculous strategy, overthrowing capitalism when possible and the masses of people are behind the notion of revolution, sure. Otherwise it's just radicalism and adventurism which wont lead to anything usefull. Comments like these are completely alienated from working class reality, shouting revolution wont make a revolution.


And managing capital in the meantime won't either. Quite the contrary actually.

This is all the KKE threads all over again and I'm just gonna repeat what I said there. The KKE is gonna say 'we won't join in any coalition' until they have a sizeable enough base to become a dominant political force (instead of one subordinate to coalition-partners) after which they will simply manage a contemporary form of social-democracy, perhaps claiming 'Communism in 20 years' like Khrushchev did, all the while maintaining the same line 'the time for revolution hasn't come yet. We must continue building the productive forces/expand the revolutionary base' as the new ideological mask of Capitalism.

[Geiseric]

Left Communism by Lenin doesn't at all apply to KKE. If anything he would be pushing it to organize a revolution! They have no right to call themselves Leninists, nor does any "Marxist Leninist," party throughout Europe. All of them are tied to capital, thus have loyalties that are the same as the 2nd international parties and the old Social Democrats had with the Capitalists.

[A Marxist Historian]

Left Communism by Lenin doesn't at all apply to KKE. If anything he would be pushing it to organize a revolution! They have no right to call themselves Leninists, nor does any "Marxist Leninist," party throughout Europe. All of them are tied to capital, thus have loyalties that are the same as the 2nd international parties and the old Social Democrats had with the Capitalists.

Applying that pamphlet to the Greek situation doesn't quite get the results KKE defenders might like.

On the one hand, Lenin makes it very clear that the purpose of the flexible tactics he advocates there are in order to win the masses to organize a revolution if there is a revolutionary situation. And if the situation in Greece isn't revolutionary, what would one look like?

On the other hand, he advocates in the pamphlet for British Communists to vote for and even join, given how small they were, the reformist British Labour Party.

Given that the KKE is a much solider and more longstanding party than SYRIZA, with a much stronger base in the working class, for the KKE to enter SYRIZA would be absurd.

But, let's imagine that SYRIZA really does get a plurality in parliament on June 17. would it be principled for a revolutionary party to give extremely critical support to SYRIZA forming a government, precisely to expose to the Greek working class that SYRIZA has no answers?

To "support" SYRIZA, as Lenin famously put it, "like a rope supports a hanged man"?

I would think that if SYRIZA refrains from forming a coalition with any bourgeois parties, that might be a legitimate tactic. A revolutionary party would refuse to participate in a reformist coalition government itself of course.

And the support would be have to be conditional, i.e. saying "OK, SYRIZA promises to end austerity without ending capitalism, and without even leaving the EU. We don't believe that for a second, but we'll let you try, and the second you carry out any austerity measures vs. the working class, it's vote of confidence time and you're out of office."

-M.H.-

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Applying that pamphlet to the Greek situation doesn't quite get the results KKE defenders might like.

On the one hand, Lenin makes it very clear that the purpose of the flexible tactics he advocates there are in order to win the masses to organize a revolution if there is a revolutionary situation. And if the situation in Greece isn't revolutionary, what would one look like?

On the other hand, he advocates in the pamphlet for British Communists to vote for and even join, given how small they were, the reformist British Labour Party.

Given that the KKE is a much solider and more longstanding party than SYRIZA, with a much stronger base in the working class, for the KKE to enter SYRIZA would be absurd.

But, let's imagine that SYRIZA really does get a plurality in parliament on June 17. would it be principled for a revolutionary party to give extremely critical support to SYRIZA forming a government, precisely to expose to the Greek working class that SYRIZA has no answers?

To "support" SYRIZA, as Lenin famously put it, "like a rope supports a hanged man"?

I would think that if SYRIZA refrains from forming a coalition with any bourgeois parties, that might be a legitimate tactic. A revolutionary party would refuse to participate in a reformist coalition government itself of course.

And the support would be have to be conditional, i.e. saying "OK, SYRIZA promises to end austerity without ending capitalism, and without even leaving the EU. We don't believe that for a second, but we'll let you try, and the second you carry out any austerity measures vs. the working class, it's vote of confidence time and you're out of office."

-M.H.-
I bet SYRIZA winds up forming a coalition with at least one bourgeois party. But even if it does not, I'm not clear about critical support. Their formal program is for staying in the EU and maintaining capitalism. Doesn't that preclude support by revolutionaries?

[A Marxist Historian]

I bet SYRIZA winds up forming a coalition with at least one bourgeois party. But even if it does not, I'm not clear about critical support. Their formal program is for staying in the EU and maintaining capitalism. Doesn't that preclude support by revolutionaries?

Good question! I'm not sure.

They also make the pie in the sky claim that they can stay in the EU, end all austerity measures, do a three year debt moratorium, and carry out lots of nice sounding reforms all at the same time, even talking about nationalizations. The official SYRIZA program, for whatever it's worth, does call for socialism sooner or later in the sweet bye and bye, though they didn't talk about that on the campaign trail, it was a purely "anti-austerity" campaign.

So I'm wondering if it would be possible for revolutionaries just to say, OK, we know you can't do that, but the Greek working class doesn't, they voted for you, so let's see you try, put your money where your mouth is.

But once they form a coalition government with any bourgeois party, or for that matter with the Democratic Left, which is a working class party but their program is that staying in the EU is more important than avoiding austerity measures, then it would make no sense giving them any support, even the most critical.

-M.H.-

[Rusty Shackleford]

quick question, what is the logic behind "the KKE wants to leave the EU therefore they are not internationalist" ?


if there was a revolution in greece by any formation of the working class how could they possibly stay in the EU?

[Geiseric]

Well isn't it already proven that austerity is unavoidable as long as the debt is held to the EU? syriza are simply being opportunists, just like Hollande and every other social democrat who are "anti austerity." An alternative to the working class has to be shown, and the alternative to the debt and austerity is socialism. The line to be taken is one that nationalises all banks and major industries, which will be impossible with the bourgeois government. That's the point of taking the line.

[Geiseric]

Well isn't it already proven that austerity is unavoidable as long as the debt is held to the EU? syriza are simply being opportunists, just like Hollande and every other social democrat who are "anti austerity." An alternative to the working class has to be shown, and the alternative to the debt and austerity is socialism. The line to be taken is one that nationalises all banks and major industries, which will be impossible with the bourgeois government. That's the point of taking the line.

[Luís Henrique]

Well isn't it already proven that austerity is unavoidable as long as the debt is held to the EU?

If it has been proven, how comes that most of the Greek working class votes exactly for that, EU without austerity?

Luís Henrique

[Geiseric]

That's impossible, the core reason for the EU is for the richer european countries to rule economically "poorer," countries like Italy and Greece. Leaving the EU as well as abolishing capitalism is what the KKE should be doing, not just leaving the EU. Simply leaving the EU will lead to destruction, since Greece is still capitalist, the system will collapse since no investments are coming in, and Communism will be besmirched once more. KKE needs to push for revolution, not petty centrism.

[FSL]

Leaving the EU as well as abolishing capitalism is what the KKE should be doing, not just leaving the EU.
Where did you see the "just leaving the EU" part?

[A Marxist Historian]

If it has been proven, how comes that most of the Greek working class votes exactly for that, EU without austerity?

Luís Henrique

Because hope springs eternal in the human breast.

-M.H.-

[sphlanx]

KKE needs to push for revolution, not petty centrism.

Now, it is not just this post but many posts before that as well that seem to be critique of KKE either while not knowing anything about it or intentionally acting like not knowing.

The fact is that the same you tell here as arguments have been claimed by GS of CC of the CP Aleka Papariga: "Euro or Drachma, if the economy is ruled by capitalists it will be the same for the working class".

For this statements all leftist groups and parties accused KKE for taking a reformist turn and abandoning the exit from the eurozone as a goal.

On the meantime, KKE is accepting its dramatic fall of electoral results, in order to maintain the solid position, that the working class problems cannot be solved by govermental coalitions. And on the same time, it is organizing grass root ("first level") unions in factories and corporations, while supporting the ongoing struggles of current struggles like the 250days+ strike in "Greek Steelworks" , the 70+ days strike of "Phonemarketing", the recent 48hours strikes of the workers in hotels-tourism as well as the hospitals, transportation, media and civil workers.

To answer another question from previous posts that said: "Ok for the 17th of June but what about the next day? The next month?"

That is exactly where KKE is focusing. KKE knows that 17th of June will drop the parties electoral results even further, since the situation is polarized between "center-right" and "center-left". But the next day, the next month, there will still be workers fighting and organizing their struggle and KKE will be next to them, no matter who is in the presidential post.

[Coggeh]

Now, it is not just this post but many posts before that as well that seem to be critique of KKE either while not knowing anything about it or intentionally acting like not knowing.

The fact is that the same you tell here as arguments have been claimed by GS of CC of the CP Aleka Papariga: "Euro or Drachma, if the economy is ruled by capitalists it will be the same for the working class".

For this statements all leftist groups and parties accused KKE for taking a reformist turn and abandoning the exit from the eurozone as a goal.

On the meantime, KKE is accepting its dramatic fall of electoral results, in order to maintain the solid position, that the working class problems cannot be solved by govermental coalitions. And on the same time, it is organizing grass root ("first level") unions in factories and corporations, while supporting the ongoing struggles of current struggles like the 250days+ strike in "Greek Steelworks" , the 70+ days strike of "Phonemarketing", the recent 48hours strikes of the workers in hotels-tourism as well as the hospitals, transportation, media and civil workers.

To answer another question from previous posts that said: "Ok for the 17th of June but what about the next day? The next month?"

That is exactly where KKE is focusing. KKE knows that 17th of June will drop the parties electoral results even further, since the situation is polarized between "center-right" and "center-left". But the next day, the next month, there will still be workers fighting and organizing their struggle and KKE will be next to them, no matter who is in the presidential post.
So the KKE's solution is to ignore the current changes and polarization in society and wait for a revolution?
This idea of a strong opposition that KKE are talking about is ludicrous nonsense at best. KKE have a massive opportunity on their hands, to put forward a call for left unity government to reject the troika's austerity and stop the massive sale of state assets. Syriza now stands at 30% in the polls (nearly double of their election result just last month) the KKE has dropped to 5%. It shows a clear rejection by former KKE supporters of their sectarian attitude to a united left movement.

The KKE are attempting a sad ploy of waiting around for a "revolutionary situation" rather than attempting to provide political working class leadership they are sitting on their hands trying to claw on to their ever dwindling working class support.They did all this with the excuse of the "immaturity of the conditions" and the “need for a strong opposition”. The KKE leadership has used all kinds of tricks in their attempt to separate government and authority, identifying any left government with the authority of capital. Rather than accepting SYRIZA’s call for unity and combining this with the presentation of the correct revolutionary programme that a left government should implement – thus behaving as the supposedly "orthodox" communists they claim to be – they refused even to enter into discussions on such unity. Instead they referred to an abstract "people's power" to be established at some unknown moment in the future.

The working masses thus had to choose in the elections between two kinds of Left. There was the Communist Party, who presented all struggles for a left government in this parliament as outdated and pointless. And there was SYRIZA, that with the slogan for a left government offered a real concrete perspective of an alternative government to austerity and cuts.

[FSL]

We'll ofcourse see about this "left government" that "offered a real concrete perspective of an alternative government to austerity and cuts", won't we?
Might be they save us and capitalism becomes humane and I'm sure every man, woman and child on this planet, including communists of course, will owe them gratitude for all time to come.
Might be they don't.


You're in CWI. Its greek section left syriza a few months back. What's the deal now, the prospect of government changed things and CWI's back to backing it?


PS. There is nothing abstract in overthrowing capitalists.

[Die Neue Zeit]

So the KKE's solution is to ignore the current changes and polarization in society and wait for a revolution?
This idea of a strong opposition that KKE are talking about is ludicrous nonsense at best. KKE have a massive opportunity on their hands, to put forward a call for left unity government to reject the troika's austerity and stop the massive sale of state assets. Syriza now stands at 30% in the polls (nearly double of their election result just last month) the KKE has dropped to 5%. It shows a clear rejection by former KKE supporters of their sectarian attitude to a united left movement.

The KKE are attempting a sad ploy of waiting around for a "revolutionary situation" rather than attempting to provide political working class leadership they are sitting on their hands trying to claw on to their ever dwindling working class support.They did all this with the excuse of the "immaturity of the conditions" and the “need for a strong opposition”. The KKE leadership has used all kinds of tricks in their attempt to separate government and authority, identifying any left government with the authority of capital. Rather than accepting SYRIZA’s call for unity and combining this with the presentation of the correct revolutionary programme that a left government should implement – thus behaving as the supposedly "orthodox" communists they claim to be – they refused even to enter into discussions on such unity. Instead they referred to an abstract "people's power" to be established at some unknown moment in the future.

The working masses thus had to choose in the elections between two kinds of Left. There was the Communist Party, who presented all struggles for a left government in this parliament as outdated and pointless. And there was SYRIZA, that with the slogan for a left government offered a real concrete perspective of an alternative government to austerity and cuts.

I'm not supporting the KKE here by any stretch, comrade Coggeh, but Greece doesn't really have a revolutionary period for the working class. If it did, there'd be one mass party-movement with majority political support from the class.

However, the Comintern discussed something about "workers governments" outside a revolutionary period for the working class. The KKE is stuck in its political BS for not cooperating with SYRIZA in the efforts for regime change (though, keep in mind, only certain kinds of regime change occur in revolutionary periods for the working class).

[Panda Tse Tung]

Syriza now stands at 30% in the polls (nearly double of their election result just last month) the KKE has dropped to 5%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_June_2012#Opinion_poll s

It almost seems like their actively working on changing the public opinion through polls in favor of SYRIZA, i wonder why?
(btw, these we're the polls before the last elections in which they got 8,48% of the vote while polled by various polling bureau's at 4 (at it's low) and 7 (at it's peak) the average is about 5%. The seat share was estimated to be between 12 and 20, they got 26. I'm not worried.)

edit:

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=2F3P79KQ
I'll translate this interview with the Greek Communist MP Liana Kanelli from Dutch (a bit sloppy, but readable enough). It will destroy most arguments against the KKE, allthough i dont think many of their critics will ever change their mind. Even if reality is slapping them in their faces.
(??) = not sure if correctly translated.



'We have to leave the EU as fast as possible'

INTERVIEW



Wednesday 25 april 2012, 03u00
Author: Marloes de Koning


ATHENE - Liana Kanelli is the most popular MP in Greece. Because she says what people think. Should Greece stay in the EU? 'Leave as fast as possible, leave the wolves nest.'


From our correspondent in Greece

A typical electoral debate in Greece goes like this: the host asks a question. For example, would we like to stay in the euro. The screen splits in two, with on the one hand a right-wing conservative politician and on the other side a social democrat. The men raise their voices, as if they are screaming towards eachother from two sides of an appartment block.

Then Liana Kanelli is added to the panel, MP for the Communist party the KKE and everyone listens carefully. The originally conservative journalist Kanelli (58) converted to communism at a very late age. She's still not a member of the KKE, but she is a part of the parliamentary group of the KKE. Partly thanks to her the stalinist party grew out to be the third party of the country. Viewers see her honesty. And perhaps they recognize a bit of themselves in the dramatic Kanelli, who laughs and curses.

Without waiting for an opening question, the chain-smoker Kanelli immediatly starts off. People in Belgium simply do not understand the 'mistakes' of Greece, she says: 'Even airing radio signals is ten times more expensive. It's because of the frequency which needs to transmit over mountains and to all islands.

Why are you discussing the different cost prices? To show that a European central market could never work?

'With the current plans, and the austerity imposed on us certainly not. And by holding on to a purely capitalist economy, it's a disaster. Producing something in Europe is simply more expensive then producing it in India or China. But Europe wants something from us.'

What?

'What? Look at the movements in the markets. Europe is trying to prevent that it becomes the third world of the 21st century. De European Union is a capitalist union, a union of multinationals. There is a bigger economic plan. If you dive into the nazi-archives, you will find the exact same plan.'

And what role does Greece get in this play?

'A very strategic one. As a bridge between the Middle-East and the Balkan. It's been like that throughout the century's. If you control the bridge, you control everything. Economically it's purely about enlarging their market (??). And if it doesn't work to expand, you destroy first and take it afterwards. Marx said it in a better way then me. The plan is good for Northern Europe, not for us.'

What's your alternative?

'We have to leave the EU and the euro as soon as possible. Disengage. But in a controlled way, throught out. You have to plan something like that. In a way that least hurts the masses. Tell your readers about the deterioration of our healthcare in the past two, three years. All has declines with thirty, fourty percent. People are going to die. By closing the schools you dont save economies. You dont influence the price of Credit Default Swaps with that. However, it does change a well educated, experienced labor force into an underveloped nation in twenty years.'

How does Greece finance itself after leaving the euro?

'We are our own capital. Greece needs a centralize planned economy of the working class. We can start using the true riches of this land, like gold, bauxite and nickel. We have wind, sun and coal. And under Creta gass was discovered. We have plenty to provide ourselves with energy. While we're importing it right now.'

Do you believe in revolution?

'I believe in evolution. The growing consciousness of the working class. The middle class has been drugged with the European lie which tells them their are only different interest groups. We have to sgtart all over with the entire idea of the European Union. A EU for you and me. Of the people. I need Hands. You need Mitsos.'

Are these elections about a choice between a capitalist and a communist Greece?

'The primary goal of the KKE is to soak off the people from the two governing capitalist party's promising us phony prosperity. This in't a financial or social crisis, it's a crisis of capitalism. And we're having it because all of the capital is in the hands of a phew. The right to work, a fundamental European human right, is dissipated (??). People are treated like objects. Fear words such as 'free traffic of labor' (??). Whats happening no was already predicted by the Communist party in 1993. Since the treaty of Maastricht.'

Your party has some ten to twelve percent of the votes in the polls. Greeks are scared of the radical change you propose.

'You dont think that under the current kind of terror these people will congratulate those who had predicted their destruction? Noooo. There is a culture of conformism. People believed that with cheap loans money would come our of the banks. But more people will vote for the communists, i can gaurantee this.'

Not enough to make a real change.

'No, their just elections. It's not a revolution, honey.'

[A Marxist Historian]

So the KKE's solution is to ignore the current changes and polarization in society and wait for a revolution?
This idea of a strong opposition that KKE are talking about is ludicrous nonsense at best. KKE have a massive opportunity on their hands, to put forward a call for left unity government to reject the troika's austerity and stop the massive sale of state assets. Syriza now stands at 30% in the polls (nearly double of their election result just last month) the KKE has dropped to 5%. It shows a clear rejection by former KKE supporters of their sectarian attitude to a united left movement.

The KKE are attempting a sad ploy of waiting around for a "revolutionary situation" rather than attempting to provide political working class leadership they are sitting on their hands trying to claw on to their ever dwindling working class support.They did all this with the excuse of the "immaturity of the conditions" and the “need for a strong opposition”. The KKE leadership has used all kinds of tricks in their attempt to separate government and authority, identifying any left government with the authority of capital. Rather than accepting SYRIZA’s call for unity and combining this with the presentation of the correct revolutionary programme that a left government should implement – thus behaving as the supposedly "orthodox" communists they claim to be – they refused even to enter into discussions on such unity. Instead they referred to an abstract "people's power" to be established at some unknown moment in the future.

The working masses thus had to choose in the elections between two kinds of Left. There was the Communist Party, who presented all struggles for a left government in this parliament as outdated and pointless. And there was SYRIZA, that with the slogan for a left government offered a real concrete perspective of an alternative government to austerity and cuts.

A "left unity government" of the bourgeois Greek state would inevitably carry out austerity measures against the Greek working class, as none of the problems of Greece can be solved without a socialist revolution, and you can't obtain socialism through the ballot box, as any Marxist, and certainly any Leninist, should know.

You, and your entire political tendency for that matter, ought to go back and read "State and Revolution," and pay attention this time. You are reformists.

The only reason to vote for SYRIZA would be to put them into office so as to prove to the Greek working class that they are bourgeois reformists who need to be denounced, rejected, split, wrecked and in general politically destroyed.

Supported in the way "a rope supports a hanged man," as Lenin famously put it.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

I'm not supporting the KKE here by any stretch, comrade Coggeh, but Greece doesn't really have a revolutionary period for the working class. If it did, there'd be one mass party-movement with majority political support from the class.

However, the Comintern discussed something about "workers governments" outside a revolutionary period for the working class. The KKE is stuck in its political BS for not cooperating with SYRIZA in the efforts for regime change (though, keep in mind, only certain kinds of regime change occur in revolutionary periods for the working class).

I do plan to start a thread in History on "workers governments," real soon now. But meanwhile, let me point out that the first paragraph is simply wrong, and ultra-bureaucratic.

What defines a revolutionary situation? It's when, as Lenin put it, I'm paraphrasing, the old ruling classes can't rule in the old way anymore, and the oppressed class has simply had it with the current state of affairs. That seems like an excellent description of Greece at this point.

There have been innumerable revolutionary situations in history, and in damn few of them did you have "one mass party-movement with majority political support from the class." Actually, October 1917 is the only one I can think of, ever.

Certainly you had nothing like that in 1871 with the Paris Commune, or in February 1917 when the Tsar was overthrown, or in Germany and Austria-Hungary in 1918 when the old imperial monarchies were overthrown. To name only a few.

Now, can a workers revolution *succeed* without a mass revolutionary working class party that the masses are following? Well, the success of the Bolshevik Revolution and the failure of the Paris Commune, the German Revolution of 1918, etc. etc. seems to be an argument that it can't. I'd tend to think so, but I don't think you can say that is 100% proven.

-M.H.-

[Geiseric]

Wow that is a very ultraleft attitude. Why not support SYRIZA's general anti austerity program and nationalization program? The greek working class is supporting it, it's a clear cut plan, and it will certainly fall through the floor since it conflicts with the EU so much. Their plans will make the working class see revolution as the only possible alternative, however at the minimum for that purpose SYRIZA should be supported.

Also there is no organization capible of carrying out a socialist revolution yet, so you're dillusional at this point. I understand that a workers party has to be formed, however SYRIZA is the best alternative at this point, especially since it does contain some Radical as well as Reformist socialist elements who are too radical to be in the socialist party, so since they present a plan that has socialist, transitional demands and solutions to the crisis, I don't see how supporting that and not the entire SYRIZA organization and program is impossible.

[A Marxist Historian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_June_2012#Opinion_poll s

It almost seems like their actively working on changing the public opinion through polls in favor of SYRIZA, i wonder why?
(btw, these we're the polls before the last elections in which they got 8,48% of the vote while polled by various polling bureau's at 4 (at it's low) and 7 (at it's peak) the average is about 5%. The seat share was estimated to be between 12 and 20, they got 26. I'm not worried.)

edit:

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=2F3P79KQ
I'll translate this interview with the Greek Communist MP Liana Kanelli from Dutch (a bit sloppy, but readable enough). It will destroy most arguments against the KKE, allthough i dont think many of their critics will ever change their mind. Even if reality is slapping them in their faces.
(??) = not sure if correctly translated.



'We have to leave the EU as fast as possible'

INTERVIEW



Wednesday 25 april 2012, 03u00
Author: Marloes de Koning


ATHENE - Liana Kanelli is the most popular MP in Greece. Because she says what people think. Should Greece stay in the EU? 'Leave as fast as possible, leave the wolves nest.'


From our correspondent in Greece

A typical electoral debate in Greece goes like this: the host asks a question. For example, would we like to stay in the euro. The screen splits in two, with on the one hand a right-wing conservative politician and on the other side a social democrat. The men raise their voices, as if they are screaming towards eachother from two sides of an appartment block.

Then Liana Kanelli is added to the panel, MP for the Communist party the KKE and everyone listens carefully. The originally conservative journalist Kanelli (58) converted to communism at a very late age. She's still not a member of the KKE, but she is a part of the parliamentary group of the KKE. Partly thanks to her the stalinist party grew out to be the third party of the country. Viewers see her honesty. And perhaps they recognize a bit of themselves in the dramatic Kanelli, who laughs and curses.

Without waiting for an opening question, the chain-smoker Kanelli immediatly starts off. People in Belgium simply do not understand the 'mistakes' of Greece, she says: 'Even airing radio signals is ten times more expensive. It's because of the frequency which needs to transmit over mountains and to all islands.

Why are you discussing the different cost prices? To show that a European central market could never work?

'With the current plans, and the austerity imposed on us certainly not. And by holding on to a purely capitalist economy, it's a disaster. Producing something in Europe is simply more expensive then producing it in India or China. But Europe wants something from us.'

What?

'What? Look at the movements in the markets. Europe is trying to prevent that it becomes the third world of the 21st century. De European Union is a capitalist union, a union of multinationals. There is a bigger economic plan. If you dive into the nazi-archives, you will find the exact same plan.'

And what role does Greece get in this play?

'A very strategic one. As a bridge between the Middle-East and the Balkan. It's been like that throughout the century's. If you control the bridge, you control everything. Economically it's purely about enlarging their market (??). And if it doesn't work to expand, you destroy first and take it afterwards. Marx said it in a better way then me. The plan is good for Northern Europe, not for us.'

What's your alternative?

'We have to leave the EU and the euro as soon as possible. Disengage. But in a controlled way, throught out. You have to plan something like that. In a way that least hurts the masses. Tell your readers about the deterioration of our healthcare in the past two, three years. All has declines with thirty, fourty percent. People are going to die. By closing the schools you dont save economies. You dont influence the price of Credit Default Swaps with that. However, it does change a well educated, experienced labor force into an underveloped nation in twenty years.'

How does Greece finance itself after leaving the euro?

'We are our own capital. Greece needs a centralize planned economy of the working class. We can start using the true riches of this land, like gold, bauxite and nickel. We have wind, sun and coal. And under Creta gass was discovered. We have plenty to provide ourselves with energy. While we're importing it right now.'

Do you believe in revolution?

'I believe in evolution. The growing consciousness of the working class. The middle class has been drugged with the European lie which tells them their are only different interest groups. We have to sgtart all over with the entire idea of the European Union. A EU for you and me. Of the people. I need Hands. You need Mitsos.'

Are these elections about a choice between a capitalist and a communist Greece?

'The primary goal of the KKE is to soak off the people from the two governing capitalist party's promising us phony prosperity. This in't a financial or social crisis, it's a crisis of capitalism. And we're having it because all of the capital is in the hands of a phew. The right to work, a fundamental European human right, is dissipated (??). People are treated like objects. Fear words such as 'free traffic of labor' (??). Whats happening no was already predicted by the Communist party in 1993. Since the treaty of Maastricht.'

Your party has some ten to twelve percent of the votes in the polls. Greeks are scared of the radical change you propose.

'You dont think that under the current kind of terror these people will congratulate those who had predicted their destruction? Noooo. There is a culture of conformism. People believed that with cheap loans money would come our of the banks. But more people will vote for the communists, i can gaurantee this.'

Not enough to make a real change.

'No, their just elections. It's not a revolution, honey.'

This is all well meaning oldstyle left social democratic reformism of the old school, before Social Democracy meant lick capitalist boots. Eugene Debs in America talked somewhat similarly, except in much redder terms.

She won't say she believes in revolution, she believes in "evolution." Well, at least she is not a creationist.

Socialism, a planned economy for the workers, in the sweet bye and bye, but meanwhile, this is not a revolutionary situation.

Plus, she has delusions that when Greece does go socialist, it has all sorts of untapped natural resources that would enable Greece to be an independent socialist state, not a dependency on bigger powers like Greece has been in its entire history.

The Greek workers know better than that. As long as the KKE still pushes that kind of pie in the sky, it is unlikely to ever regain its former status as the majority party of the working class, which it lost through its innumerable betrayals.

-M.H.-

[Luís Henrique]

Because hope springs eternal in the human breast.

Oh, yes. I forgot that.

But I wonder why do we have eternally to put our springing hope in the wrong places?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

'With the current plans, and the austerity imposed on us certainly not. And by holding on to a purely capitalist economy, it's a disaster. Producing something in Europe is simply more expensive then producing it in India or China. But Europe wants something from us.'

So there is something like a "purely capitalist economy"? Which, I suppose, implies there is something like a "capitalist economy mixed with something else, not exactly capitalist"?


'What? Look at the movements in the markets. Europe is trying to prevent that it becomes the third world of the 21st century. De European Union is a capitalist union, a union of multinationals. There is a bigger economic plan. If you dive into the nazi-archives, you will find the exact same plan.'

And what exactly is that "exact same plan", and how would the neoliberal plans of Brussels be prefigured in Nazi State dirigism?


'A very strategic one. As a bridge between the Middle-East and the Balkan. It's been like that throughout the century's. If you control the bridge, you control everything. Economically it's purely about enlarging their market (??). And if it doesn't work to expand, you destroy first and take it afterwards. Marx said it in a better way then me. The plan is good for Northern Europe, not for us.'

Ah, so the "Nazi plan" of the neoliberals is actually good for Northern Europe? But isn't "Northern Europe" divided into classes? Does she mean that the neoliberal "Nazi plan" is good for Northern European workers?

Or is should we assume that the subject of her sentences is always the bourgeoisie, and that she means the mysterious plan is good for Northern European bourgeoisie, but bad for the Greek bourgeoisie?


'We have to leave the EU and the euro as soon as possible. Disengage. But in a controlled way, throught out. You have to plan something like that. In a way that least hurts the masses.

And what way would that be? Does such a way even exist?


Tell your readers about the deterioration of our healthcare in the past two, three years. All has declines with thirty, fourty percent. People are going to die. By closing the schools you dont save economies. You dont influence the price of Credit Default Swaps with that.

Indeed. So what is she telling us? That the survival of capitalist Greece requires better handling from EU officials? That these guys are killing the chicken of the golden eggs?


However, it does change a well educated, experienced labor force into an underveloped nation in twenty years.'

And I suppose this is the "Nazi neoliberal plan". Well, this is what is happening, of course; Greek workers (and not just them, but even American workers, too) are being "undeveloped"; the concentration of capital requires taking a lot of conquests of civilisation from them. That this means, in the long term, the destruction of the very base over which capitalist accumulation relies (they need buyers for their gadgets, else what they get is an even worse crisis), however, only shows us that there is no "plan" at all; it is capitalists and their representatives in the varied States shouting aprés moi le deluge and playing va banque against themselves.


'We are our own capital.

No kidding? What is "capital" in your reckoning, Representative Kanelli?


Greece needs a centralize planned economy of the working class. We can start using the true riches of this land, like gold, bauxite and nickel. We have wind, sun and coal. And under Creta gass was discovered. We have plenty to provide ourselves with energy. While we're importing it right now.'

But the problem is not providing Greece with energy, but providing Greek capital - or the Greek economy, if you really believe we are talking about a non-capitalist economy - with costumers for whatever Greece produces. Otherwise Greece collapses into some kind of bonsai capitalism with small markets, small aggregate demand, and capital fleeing abroad to places with brighter prospects.


'I believe in evolution.

Oh please.


The growing consciousness of the working class. The middle class has been drugged with the European lie which tells them their are only different interest groups. We have to sgtart all over with the entire idea of the European Union. A EU for you and me. Of the people. I need Hands. You need Mitsos.'

What is that supposed to mean, even?


'The primary goal of the KKE is to soak off the people from the two governing capitalist party's promising us phony prosperity. This in't a financial or social crisis, it's a crisis of capitalism.

Exactly. And what is a crisis of capitalism, and what causes it?


And we're having it because all of the capital is in the hands of a phew.

So the problem is not capital in itself, but its concentration in a few hands? What would be the solution, forcibly de-concentrating capital? How does such divided, weakened Greek capital stand against concentrated, powerful foreign capital? I guess by isolating the Greek economy from the rest of the world, so that Greek consumers have to buy Greek-made commodities, regardless of price or quality, in order to prevent imperialism taking over Greece?


The right to work, a fundamental European human right, is dissipated (??).

So we the people are begging to the capitalists, "please exploit us!" and the monstrous sadists are waving their fingers at us, chanting, "nanner, ninner, no"?


'You dont think that under the current kind of terror these people will congratulate those who had predicted their destruction? Noooo. There is a culture of conformism. People believed that with cheap loans money would come our of the banks. But more people will vote for the communists, i can gaurantee this.'

Well, I hope more people will vote for them, of course, but I can't see how such a discourse is going to obtain it.

The analysis is bankrupt; people do not vote for the communists because there is a "culture of conformism". There is no hint on how such a culture of conformism can be confronted; it very much sounds as if the bourgeoisie was omnipotent, being able to manipulate the masses through its media.


'No, their just elections. It's not a revolution, honey.'

No, of course it is not a revolution. But there is an extremely unstable situation in Greece as of now. It is not a revolutionary situation, but it is a pre-revolutionary one. Meaning that the Greek State could collapse at any moment soon, in which case anyone who is able to understand what a revolution is and how it happens will have an upper hand. It doesn't seem to be the case of any of the parties among which the Greek left is divided.

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

I do plan to start a thread in History on "workers governments," real soon now. But meanwhile, let me point out that the first paragraph is simply wrong, and ultra-bureaucratic.

It is bureaucratic, but it is correct. Bureaucracy is a process that the working class must master for durable class rule. Ad hoc-ist demagoguery that hampers the organizational development of the class isn't good.


What defines a revolutionary situation? It's when, as Lenin put it, I'm paraphrasing, the old ruling classes can't rule in the old way anymore, and the oppressed class has simply had it with the current state of affairs. That seems like an excellent description of Greece at this point.

That's Marx's simple definition, not Lenin's. Lenin's was from Kautsky's The Road to Power, and... so is mine. :)

[Rocky Rococo]

The KKE reveals to the people that it is necessary to have a people’s and workers’ movement that will struggle for the rupture and the overthrow of the choices of capital and the EU and to promote the coordination at a European level not throughnegotiations but through strengthening the workers’ people’s movement in its struggle against the EU, in the line of rupture.

And the best way to accomplish that is to stand shoulder to shoulder with the cops and Golden Dawn in beating the living crap out of anti-austerity demonstrators?

[DaringMehring]

Do you believe in revolution?

'I believe in evolution. The growing consciousness of the working class. The middle class has been drugged with the European lie which tells them their are only different interest groups. We have to sgtart all over with the entire idea of the European Union. A EU for you and me. Of the people. I need Hands. You need Mitsos.'


Why the hell can't anyone ever get this question right.

KKE says some great stuff -- but they throw it all away right there. No revolution means... they're just as useless as the rest.

[Threetune]

Why the hell can't anyone ever get this question right.

KKE says some great stuff -- but they throw it all away right there. No revolution means... they're just as useless as the rest.

Shush keep quiet I think he’s hinting at the dictatorship of the proletariat. But don’t mention it, you might frighten the middle class ‘lefts’, Stalinists, Trotskyists, and Anarchists who are all dead against even discussing it seriously as a perspective in front of the working class. Shame on them all.

[Positivist]

Luis Henrique what do you mean "so capital isn't the problem?" Capital is resources. Are water sources, buildings and food the problem? Yes capital should be deconcentrated from the control of the capitalist class to the control of the working class. That's what socialism is.

[A Marxist Historian]

Wow that is a very ultraleft attitude. Why not support SYRIZA's general anti austerity program and nationalization program? The greek working class is supporting it, it's a clear cut plan, and it will certainly fall through the floor since it conflicts with the EU so much. Their plans will make the working class see revolution as the only possible alternative, however at the minimum for that purpose SYRIZA should be supported.

Also there is no organization capible of carrying out a socialist revolution yet, so you're dillusional at this point. I understand that a workers party has to be formed, however SYRIZA is the best alternative at this point, especially since it does contain some Radical as well as Reformist socialist elements who are too radical to be in the socialist party, so since they present a plan that has socialist, transitional demands and solutions to the crisis, I don't see how supporting that and not the entire SYRIZA organization and program is impossible.

Right now, the Greek workers have a much more radical alternative to vote for, namely the KKE. With all its flaws, it is the historical party of the Greek working class, and it has a much solider base in the trade unions than does SYRIZA.

The KKE opposes the EU, opposes the Euro, and for the moment at least opposes any coalitions with parties that supports them. And does call for socialism as the solution, whereas SYRIZA basically just wants an "anti-austerity" government, not a socialist regime. So voting for SYRIZA instead of the KKE is saying that you don't really believe in socialism or revolution.

That SYRIZA is going to get a lot more votes than the KKE should be irrelevant to revolutionaries. If SYRIZA forms a government, its program of opposing austerity without breaking with the EU and overthrowing capitalism just can't be done.

Speculation as to what SYRIZA would do when the bankers tell 'em no way, it's our way or the highway, is irrelevant at this point. Maybe they'd break with the EU, more likely they would capitulate.

But if you vote for them now, you are giving your faith to them as the answer, and essentially voting for staying in the EU and the Euro, since there is a serious candidature which opposes that.

Ought the KKE be willing to give SYRIZA critical support in forming a government if the SYRIZA promises not to bow to the bankers, not to include bourgeois parties in its government coalition, etc. etc.? Well, let's cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

And moreover, I don't feel the need to give the KKE advice, as I am not in fact a supporter of said party. They are Stalinists after all, and have not rejected in principle their class collaborationist actions in the past. The correct sort of support for the KKE in these elections has to be highly critical.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Oh, yes. I forgot that.

But I wonder why do we have eternally to put our springing hope in the wrong places?

Luís Henrique

IMHO, we don't. Sad fact is that many of us do.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

It is bureaucratic, but it is correct. Bureaucracy is a process that the working class must master for durable class rule. Ad hoc-ist demagoguery that hampers the organizational development of the class isn't good.



That's Marx's simple definition, not Lenin's. Lenin's was from Kautsky's The Road to Power, and... so is mine. :)

It may originally have been Marx's, which of course I have no problem with. I distinctly recall Lenin using some very similar phraseology, which quite likely he cribbed from Marx.

I agree that you can't run a workers state without creating some sort of a state bureaucracy, during the transitional process. And a revolutionary workers party must inevitably have paid functionaries. And unevenness of class consciousness in the working class in a capitalist society means that inevitably there will be leaders and led

But that creates a danger of degeneration--into reformism in a capitalist society, into Stalinism in a workers state. This danger has to be fought tooth and nail. The key question is what social privileges, if any, the bureaucrats should have. This needs to be kept down to necessary functional minima, or degeneration is inevitable.

If the leadership of a workers party in the capitalist world, or the bureaucracy of a workers state, becomes a socially privileged upper layer of the working class, then labor bureaucrats in the capitalist world or party and state bureaucrats in a workers state will develop social interest in compromise with rather than overthrowing capitalism and capitalists.

Being determines consciousness.

This is the lesson of history--in particular of Kautsky's SPD, and of the USSR under Stalin.

-M.H.-

[Luís Henrique]

Luis Henrique what do you mean "so capital isn't the problem?" Capital is resources. Are water sources, buildings and food the problem? Yes capital should be deconcentrated from the control of the capitalist class to the control of the working class. That's what socialism is.

No, "capital" aren't resources!

Capital is a social relation, capital is money that begets money, capital is accumulated dead labour, capital is self-reproducing value, but capital is not "resources".

Socialism is the abolition of capital, not its "deconcentration".

Luís Henrique

ETA. But this conundrum seems to point to the startling conclusion that Stalinism isn't a degenerate form of Marxism, but rather a degenerate form of... Proudhonism...!

[Panda Tse Tung]

I had an extremely elaborate response to this yesterday, and then my computer crashed. So a shorter re-run here.

Firstly i'd like to state that this is a relatively short interview where she has to explain the situation to a non-Greek audience in very little words. So a lot of the questions which concern it lacking some debth are irrelevant.

And what way would that be? Does such a way even exist?

A way that least hurts the masses? Of course it does, we simply need to investigate what way this would be. But no doubt there is a way that least hurts the masses.

But the problem is not providing Greece with energy

It's called an example. A simple example of how ridiculous the current economic relations are for Greece, they have all the resources to provide themselves with energy, but they import it at a higher rate, why?

What is that supposed to mean, even?

Idk what the misunderstanding is, but Hands = supposed to be Hans, a Dutch name and Mitsos is a Greek name.

So we the people are begging to the capitalists, "please exploit us!" and the monstrous sadists are waving their fingers at us, chanting, "nanner, ninner, no"?

I think your trivializing the right to work, which especially at this stage is a fundamental gain for the working class.

it very much sounds as if the bourgeoisie was omnipotent, being able to manipulate the masses through its media.

Even though i agree with the rest of your statement it is a fact that the bourgeouisie holds a monopoly on the media which is truly a strength for them. Additionally to other cultural institutions, the only possible way to counter this propaganda is the physical presence in the streets and work-place and showing we are not crazy savages.

Edit:
"The KKE has no parliamentary illusions in the sense that it does not expect to gradually increase its vote until one day it will have a majority in parliament and form a “communist” government. We are struggling for socialism-communism and if this could occur via bourgeois elections then the bourgeois class would have abolished elections."

-Elisseos Vagenas