Log in

View Full Version : Utopia is communism, not the contrary.



Misocratist
27th May 2012, 00:31
It has to be reminded that communism existed long, long before Marx: Pythagoras' sect is said to have held everything in common, as do the Gardians in Plato's Republic, the citizens of Lycurgus' Sparta (as described in Plutarch's "Life of Lycurgus", which might not be historically accurate, but not less interesting), the first Christian communities (cf. Acts 4:32-35), monks following the rule of St. Benedict, Campanella's "Civitas Solis"... and most famously, the inhabitants of Thomas More's Utopia.

You've heard it dozens of time. "Communism is an Utopia". Well, now you can say that the original Utopia was a communist society, not the contrary:




"Though, to speak plainly my real sentiments, I must freely own that as long as there is any property, and while money is the standard of all other things, I cannot think that a nation can be governed either justly or happily: not justly, because the best things will fall to the share of the worst men; nor happily, because all things will be divided among a few (and even these are not in all respects happy), the rest being left to be absolutely miserable. Therefore, when I reflect on the wise and good constitution of the Utopians, among whom all things are so well governed and with so few laws, where virtue hath its due reward, and yet there is such an equality that every man lives in plenty-- when I compare with them so many other nations that are still making new laws, and yet can never bring their constitution to a right regulation; where, notwithstanding every one has his property, yet all the laws that they can invent have not the power either to obtain or preserve it, or even to enable men certainly to distinguish what is their own from what is another's, of which the many lawsuits that every day break out, and are eternally depending, give too plain a demonstration--when, I say, I balance all these things in my thoughts, I grow more favourable to Plato, and do not wonder that he resolved not to make any laws for such as would not submit to a community of all things; for so wise a man could not but foresee that the setting all upon a level was the only way to make a nation happy; which cannot be obtained so long as there is property, for when every man draws to himself all that he can compass, by one title or another, it must needs follow that, how plentiful soever a nation may be, yet a few dividing the wealth of it among themselves, the rest must fall into indigence. So that there will be two sorts of people among them, who deserve that their fortunes should be interchanged--the former useless, but wicked and ravenous; [capitalists, landlords, rentiers, as described a few pages earlier] and the latter, who by their constant industry serve the public more than themselves, sincere and modest men [the working class, the proletariat] --from whence I am persuaded that till property is taken away, there can be no equitable or just distribution of things, nor can the world be happily governed; for as long as that is maintained, the greatest and the far best part of mankind, will be still oppressed with a load of cares and anxieties. [Full blown communism.]

I confess, without taking it quite away, those pressures that lie on a great part of mankind may be made lighter, but they can never be quite removed; for if laws were made to determine at how great an extent in soil, and at how much money, every man must stop--to limit the prince, that he might not grow too great; and to restrain the people, that they might not become too insolent--and that none might factiously aspire to public employments, which ought neither to be sold nor made burdensome by a great expense, since otherwise those that serve in them would be tempted to reimburse themselves by cheats and violence, and it would become necessary to find out rich men for undergoing those employments, which ought rather to be trusted to the wise. These laws, I say, might have such effect as good diet and care might have on a sick man whose recovery is desperate; they might allay and mitigate the disease, but it could never be quite healed, nor the body politic be brought again to a good habit as long as property remains [anachronistic criticism of social-democrats?]; and it will fall out, as in a complication of diseases, that by applying a remedy to one sore you will provoke another, and that which removes the one ill symptom produces others, while the strengthening one part of the body weakens the rest."

Anarpest
27th May 2012, 03:15
Yes, before Marxian communism, anarchism, etc., there was utopian socialism. This is generally well-known.

In any case, you may well be overlooking a couple of technicalities when it comes to your phrasing. For example, if utopia is communism, then communism is, in fact, utopia, as the corollary of the former assertion. Likewise, if we're going to boast about utopian socialism (and, to be honest, if we're using 'utopia' simply to refer to 'ideal states,' there's no real basis to claim that communism was the 'original' one, although it is correct in an etymological sense, ie. in reference to More), then we're still talking about communism which is utopian, and hence this hardly serves to refute charges of being utopian.

In other words, 'communism was the original utopia' does not contradict the assertion 'communism is utopian.'

Revolutionair
27th May 2012, 03:44
I'm going to sleep now so I quickly skimmed through your post.

Yeah Utopia was about a society that could be developped into socialism (classless, stateless and moneyless possible future society). However More also said that only the religious could be selfless enough to live in a moneyless society, also Utopia did have a state with classes. It also provides a theoretical basis for the possiblity of a future socialist society and a perfect argument against the 'but people will just become lazy and take everything for free'-argument.

You can read it here (I think it's worth your time @all posters):
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/more/works/utopia/index.html