Romanticized Crime

[Manic Impressive]

I'd like to discuss the cultural phenomenon of criminals or criminality being romanticised in the media and culture and it's appeal to the working class.

Some examples of this would be gangster rap, films like Scarface and Goodfellas, books such as the Godfather, TV like the Soprano's and historical real life ones like like the public perception of the public enemy list people such as Dillinger, Al Capone or Bonnie and Clyde. I could even go back further and cite Dick Turpin who was a lot nastier than the romantic stories told of him.

So why are people attracted to criminality, is it because they do what others cannot and defy the state? Or is it because we at least unconsciously acknowledge that the rich are our enemies and thus admire those who hurt the rich. Kind of like the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Or perhaps it's what I like to call the lottery ticket view, where people see an example of someone going from rags to riches and fantasize that they too could become rich the same way? Or maybe it's to do with supplying products which the state bans, for example drugs and alcohol in the case of prohibition?

Why does the media promote this romanticized image of crime? It's clearly profitable, but did they create the demand for products related to this or was it a case of manufacturing the demand. By media I'm not talking so much about newspapers although they certainly played a part in the public enemy era but mainly those areas I mentioned at the beginning of the post, the fictional areas.

And finally how far back do examples of this go? I can think of as I said Dick Turpin and other highwaymen in the 18th century. You could even claim that the fictional Robin Hood was one of these, that is after all who many of these people are compared to, Al Capone is sometimes viewed as a Robin Hood figure. Are there examples that go back to the middle ages or even earlier?

Thoughts, articles even books on any of these points would be greatly appreciated.

[Lucretia]

Interesting question. Another example of the phenomenon you mention: DB Cooper.

[blake 3:17]

The two most significant Marxist writings on the subject are Eric Hobsbawm's Bandits and Ernest Mandel's Delightful Murder. The former is an overview of the "social bandit" (of the Robin Hood type) and the latter an overview of crime fiction. Mandel's main decadence was reading crime fiction...

Tricia Rose has written some brilliant stuff on gangsta rap -- she's the only person that ever made Snoop Dogg make sense to me.

There's a great deal of variation within crime/mystery/suspense fiction. The line between celebrating and deploring is a fine one.

Certain types of crime are fairly easy to celebrate -- of the serious type, bank robbers are most easily celebrated and fit within a populist framework, and may be celebrated in different ways in different settings. Rapists and child killers are considered bottom of the barrel from all sides.

Mandel's book outlines the evolution of the crime story from highwayman to Poe's detective and up until the the time the book was written (1980ish, I think). He was a terrific fan of Patricia Highsmith, one of my favourite authors. Her Ripley novels are amongst the most astute fictions on class, crime, sex and taboo. Hiighsmith's politics varied from the Left to the Right, and in many ways don't really matter.


So why are people attracted to criminality, is it because they do what others cannot and defy the state? Or is it because we at least unconsciously acknowledge that the rich are our enemies and thus admire those who hurt the rich. Kind of like the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Or perhaps it's what I like to call the lottery ticket view, where people see an example of someone going from rags to riches and fantasize that they too could become rich the same way? Or maybe it's to do with supplying products which the state bans, for example drugs and alcohol in the case of prohibition?

I'd say "Yes" to all of them -- different types of fictional and true stories have their appeal. The most appealing are the ones that seem to serve justice, not necessarily the law.

I'm fascinated/annoyed by how left wing all the detectives are in novels I read -- urghh -- they're always for the little guy and do right rather than make their careers...

[Manic Impressive]

Thanks for the recommendations I'll check them out

Edit: Jesus a used copy of Mandel's Delightful murder costs £15 on Amazon and it's only 150 pages long that's 10p per page!

Here's some excerpts if anyone is interested. http://www.marxsite.com/delightful%20murder.htm



I'm fascinated/annoyed by how left wing all the detectives are in novels I read -- urghh -- they're always for the little guy and do right rather than make their careers...
I immediately thought of J.B. Priestly's an Inspector calls. The inspector was some kind of commie for sure. :D

[Os Cangaceiros]

Probably because they enjoy "professions" that exist outside normality and seem exciting.

[Sea]

A common theme in the bible is the allure of "sin", so people obviously were attracted by the pseudorebellious notion of being an outlaw back then. I'd even venture to say that glorified crime goes back as far as humanity.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Same reason athletes are admired. They both "beat the system" One did it legally, while the other did it illegally. Most athletes come from poor neighborhoods/countries and now have enough money to live like kings. They won, they got themselves and their families out of crisis by the means at their disposal. The criminal too comes from the bottom, but he claws his way up by any means necessary. He beats the system, everyone likes to see someone beat the system. One way or another. So long as the crime is not a heinous one like rape or murder people will cheer them on.

[homegrown terror]

the only criminals i really romaticise are robin hood types.

[Deicide]

Tricia Rose has written some brilliant stuff on gangsta rap -- she's the only person that ever made Snoop Dogg make sense to me.

Could you give a summary?

[Tim Cornelis]

Those are by no means romanctisations of organised crime in comparison to Mexico's corridos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrido). An important part of Mexico's folk culture. In these songs heads of crime syndicates are glorified as Robin Hoods, fighters against a corrupt government, and are called "drug saints".

[Manic Impressive]

Could you give a summary?
I went and looked her up and listened to this talk earlier.
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I've ordered her book

[Jimmie Higgins]

I agree that most of the appeal is from people "beating the system". Bonnie and Clyde and other similar bandits were beating the banks in the dust-bowl; gangster movies were popular with urban audiences because it showed immigrant characters becoming instantly rich and able to order around Anglos and do whatever they want. The Al Pachino Scarface is also explicit about this as Tony "buys" power - he dosn't want money for "things" he wants power over all those who dismissed him and thought themselves above him. Gangsta rap tales are essentially the same thing and "Scarface" as a common motif of the gangsta genre is proof of that. NWA, put the cops on trial! It's a fantasy of getting individual power based out of class frustration and repression. Society says I'm inferior and worthless: this gun and my money say otherwise.

[campesino]

Those are by no means romanctisations of organised crime in comparison to Mexico's corridos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrido). An important part of Mexico's folk culture. In these songs heads of crime syndicates are glorified as Robin Hoods, fighters against a corrupt government, and are called "drug saints".

As a Mexican who has been to Mexico for work, I'll tell you that all we try to do with people who are Narcos, is avoid them. To think that they are romanticised and thought well of is ridiculous. They are very much hated. narco-corridos seem to be more popular with Mexican diaspora in the U.S.A than in Mexico.

[Jimmie Higgins]

As a Mexican who has been to Mexico for work, I'll tell you that all we try to do with people who are Narcos, is avoid them. To think that they are romanticised and thought well of is ridiculous. They are very much hated. narco-corridos seem to be more popular with Mexican diaspora in the U.S.A than in Mexico.No it's the same everywhere. People who love gangsta rap don't like gangs in their communities. People who thought Bonnie and Clyde were sticking it to the banks didn't want to be there when it happened. It's a fantasy and people know that for the most part - maybe some kids have a tendency to confuse the fantasy and the reality out of inexperience, but not most people. So the fantasy only works when it's at arms length.

[Positivist]

I believe that criminals are attractive because they project power and hold an air of forbidden glory around them.

[Cheung Mo]

I don't mind the romanticising of crime and criminals in general. It makes people more amenable to civil disobedience. More people need to use illegal soft drugs, ignore copyright law, and brag about it all. :D

[Hexen]

The main reason crime is romanticized is because it can be traced back to capitalist ideology of rising to the top.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The main reason crime is romanticized is because it can be traced back to capitalist ideology of rising to the top.True but there are also just outlaws who are romanticized - bikers, hobos, sex workers, drug-outlaws (Hunter Thompson, Merry Pranksters, rock stars) etc - who aren't "on the top".

They get romanticized because they have full personal autonomy, they don't obey the law, they don't have to do wage-slavery, they don't have to work and worry all the time like small business owners, they don't have to act fake and "civilized" all the time like professionals and bureaucrats. So there's broad cross-class appeal :lol: to these social outlaws.