Failing to register to vote = pay a fine?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

People who repeatedly fail to fill in forms registering to vote could be fined as part of a shake-up of the British electoral system.
At the moment, the head of a household fills in the details of those living in a property but ministers want people to register individually to combat fraud.
Those refusing could be issued with a "parking-style" fine by local councils.
Labour said fines could only be justified if they were an incentive to register and they must be "reasonable".
The potential sanction is included in the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill being debated for the first time in the House of Commons on Wednesday.

(more at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18179075 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18179075))

[Drowzy_Shooter]

I feel bad for all the UK comrades

[Die Neue Zeit]

Actually, I feel good for the UK left, as this might force the issue of spoilage and spoilage campaigns to the fore. It's time to get political, folks.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Actually, I feel good for the UK left, as this might force the issue of spoilage and spoilage campaigns to the fore. It's time to get political, folks.

I dislike the concept of fining people for political apathy..on the other hand, sick of so few people ever taking even the slightest interest in politics or voting (whether they're spoilt or actual ballots)
So yeah...mixed emotions..be interesting to see whte fallout of this if it came into law
Compulsary voting would be interesting too...but that's another thing

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well, I like compulsory voting, too, so long as spoiling or "None of the Above" is an option.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Well, I like compulsory voting, too, so long as spoiling or "None of the Above" is an option.

What is the point of this? If you're going to fill in a "none of the above" option you might as well have not voted at all.

[Prometeo liberado]

If forcing a vote occurs without substantial resistance then what next? Power means the power to opt out of their bullshit. It's not our system. No vote but the vote for class war. And we all know that doesn't occur in the ballot box.

[The Intransigent Faction]

If forcing a vote occurs without substantial resistance then what next? Power means the power to opt out of their bullshit. It's not our system. No vote but the vote for class war. And we all know that doesn't occur in the ballot box.

This. If we started fining people who didn't vote for, say, the Labour Party because they didn't support them, people would be up in arms---why should it be any different if you expand that fine to people who do not vote for any of the parties when you support none of them? It's still the same principle---People who don't support any of the parties on the ballot are effectively being forced to endorse a party (more than that, a political system) with which they don't agree.

[Die Neue Zeit]

On another topic, I think the UK's electoral registration system is just as screwed as the one in the US. At least some countries have automatic or semi-automatic registration, usually tied to annual tax return filing.

[Leftsolidarity]

On another topic, I think the UK's electoral registration system is just as screwed as the one in the US. At least some countries have automatic or semi-automatic registration, usually tied to annual tax return filing.

Lol nice side-step of the criticisms placed against your stance

[Prometeo liberado]

This. If we started fining people who didn't vote for, say, the Labour Party because they didn't support them, people would be up in arms---why should it be any different if you expand that fine to people who do not vote for any of the parties when you support none of them? It's still the same principle---People who don't support any of the parties on the ballot are effectively being forced to endorse a party (more than that, a political system) with which they don't agree.

Precisely. Movement on this front has always been in motion. Now we just have a clearer picture of the diametrically opposed forces at play. Coercion towards the concentration of political power in even fewer hands or the radicalization of working class resistance at the hands of this change. Acquiesce, suffer and inch closer to total slavery or fight and suffer with maybe nothing to show for it. Either way great change that has always been in play is much more visible today.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Lol nice side-step of the criticisms placed against your stance

I'm not sidestepping. I've already said what needed to be said in my very first reply here. The rest is gravy, though relevant gravy.

[wsg1991]

actually i like the idea , as long as there is a non above choice
Imagine what would happens if some one dissatisfied with the current 2 parties , found a third party of some unknown guy and vote for it , that would be fun

[The Young Pioneer]

What is the point of this? If you're going to fill in a "none of the above" option you might as well have not voted at all.

Well, if voting were compulsory, and enough people put "none of the above"...you could see just what percent of the country thought democracy was failing them in the electoral process, no?

[RebelDog]

This is probably more to do with allowing debt collection companies to find people more easily.

[wsg1991]

i believe that those desperate people who don't vote usually won't vote for the 2 major parties so it's good

[Niall]

thats bullshit. If I go to a restaurant and dont like any of the food I dont order any and leave. Why should I be forced into voting for a party I dont support

[Zav]

thats bullshit. If I go to a restaurant and dont like any of the food I dont order any and leave. Why should I be forced into voting for a party I dont support
It is bullshit, but it's logical. They force you to vote for one of a very limited selection of parties because they want you to keep voting the present system into office. It gets them more money and more power, the both of which come from you, of course.

[Firebrand]

You will exercise your full democratic rights or you will feel the full force of the law. Your failure to participate in the democratic process undermines western democracy and damages the integrity of our voting system. Your behaviour shows a wilful and peverse desire to reject those concessions which we have so kindly granted to the population of this country. If you continue in your wiful refusal to buy into the system we have devised we shall be forced to take drastic steps in order to ensure the safety and stability of our nation.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This is probably more to do with allowing debt collection companies to find people more easily.

Where did you get that idea from? Governments at all levels have always levied fines. Surely the debt companies could already find people using the databases identifying those fined?

[Yuppie Grinder]

Well, if voting were compulsory, and enough people put "none of the above"...you could see just what percent of the country thought democracy was failing them in the electoral process, no?
We already have numbers on how many people turn up to vote.

[Niall]

It is bullshit, but it's logical. They force you to vote for one of a very limited selection of parties because they want you to keep voting the present system into office. It gets them more money and more power, the both of which come from you, of course.
I see that, but what if you dont want to vote for any of the options?

[Tim Finnegan]

We already have numbers on how many people turn up to vote.
It's easier to ignore a low turnout than it is to ignore a high turnout in favour of "fuck the lot of you". One will just be interpreted as mere apathy, but the latter is a definite protest, however petty and nebulous a protest it it may be in any individual instance.

[Prometeo liberado]

thats bullshit. If I go to a restaurant and dont like any of the food I dont order any and leave. Why should I be forced into voting for a party I dont support

This is my point comrade. Already your choices diminish by the day. As it stands you your "choice" is between less and less healthier fare from fewer independent restaurants. The industry is corpratized. This is nothing new as the battle is played out on different stages at different levels and has been for far too long. All with the same motifs, profit and a monopoly from competition. Be it restaurants, democracy or living. Why should you be forced into doing something you dont want to do? Because they can and do force you to hand over your rights on a daily basis. And you willingly do it. Don't believe me? Go ask for your surplus labor back. You gotta pay just to look,l pay to to say no and pay yet again to walk away to choice "B" that really is just a cheaper version of "A", and start the whole process all over again. Religion was once the opiate of the masses, then it was voting. Well today we are an injured beautiful beast with no recourse left to deaden the pain, save for revolution.

[wsg1991]

This is my point comrade. Already your choices diminish by the day. As it stands you your "choice" is between less and less healthier fare from fewer independent restaurants. The industry is corpratized. This is nothing new as the battle is played out on different stages at different levels and has been for far too long. All with the same motifs, profit and a monopoly from competition. Be it restaurants, democracy or living. Why should you be forced into doing something you dont want to do? Because they can and do force you to hand over your rights on a daily basis. And you willingly do it. Don't believe me? Go ask for your surplus labor back. You gotta pay just to look,l pay to to say no and pay yet again to walk away to choice "B" that really is just a cheaper version of "A", and start the whole process all over again. Religion was once the opiate of the masses, then it was voting. Well today we are an injured beautiful beast with no recourse left to deaden the pain, save for revolution.

you can write "fuck the lot of you" , it's easy solution ,

just get in there and be creative

[Prometeo liberado]

you can write "fuck the lot of you" , it's easy solution ,

just get in there and be creative

Ballot spoilage is not my idea of revolution, but if it gets more than one person thinking then go for it.

[RebelDog]

Where did you get that idea from? Governments at all levels have always levied fines. Surely the debt companies could already find people using the databases identifying those fined?

I wasn't talking about the fines. I mean personal debt. The electoral register is the fastest, easiest way to find people in debt and hassle them.

[Yuppie Grinder]

It's easier to ignore a low turnout than it is to ignore a high turnout in favour of "fuck the lot of you". One will just be interpreted as mere apathy, but the latter is a definite protest, however petty and nebulous a protest it it may be in any individual instance.

It's hardly a meaningful protest if you were forced to do it. If registering to vote and voting become compulsory, it sets a precedent for support for bourgeois political parties becoming compulsory. Besides, I doubt our governments would care if we "protest" by filling in an all of the above option. Actually, they'd certainly not care at all.

On another note, some in this thread seem to not understand that registering to vote and voting are two separate processes. As another poster mentioned earlier in this thread, this is probably more about finding indebted folks than anything.

[black magick hustla]

i've never voted and i am 23 years old

abstentionist till the day i die motherfuckers

[Os Cangaceiros]

i've never voted and i am 23 years old

.

[black magick hustla]

i preached to my mom about anarchism in the car when i was 14

[Tim Finnegan]

It's hardly a meaningful protest if you were forced to do it. If registering to vote and voting become compulsory, it sets a precedent for support for bourgeois political parties becoming compulsory. Besides, I doubt our governments would care if we "protest" by filling in an all of the above option. Actually, they'd certainly not care at all.
Are we supposed to care if they care? It certainly wasn't what I had in mind.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I see that, but what if you dont want to vote for any of the options?

Um, what if there's a None of the Above option?


It's easier to ignore a low turnout than it is to ignore a high turnout in favour of "fuck the lot of you". One will just be interpreted as mere apathy, but the latter is a definite protest, however petty and nebulous a protest it it may be in any individual instance.

Despite your flirtations with left communism here and there, at least you've retained the sense of politics with regards to spoilage and "None of the Above" votes.

[The Intransigent Faction]

It's easier to ignore a low turnout than it is to ignore a high turnout in favour of "fuck the lot of you". One will just be interpreted as mere apathy, but the latter is a definite protest, however petty and nebulous a protest it it may be in any individual instance.

Yeah sure. When you head out into the streets and protest like they're doing in Quebec right now, or plenty of other places, rather than wasting your time at a ballot box, that "will just be interpreted (by whom, exactly?) as "mere apathy". That's certainly what governments have had a habit of doing with protests lately. Come on...

The solution isn't the unproductive waste of time that is a "none of the above" option, which in any case sends no clear message as to the alternative that must be struggled for---it's to make it clear that the low turnout is not because of apathy. That's saying "fuck the lot of you" in a way that actually gets people's attention.

[Raúl Duke]

People who repeatedly fail to fill in forms registering to vote could be fined as part of a shake-up of the British electoral system.
At the moment, the head of a household fills in the details of those living in a property but ministers want people to register individually to combat fraud.
Those refusing could be issued with a "parking-style" fine by local councils.
Labour said fines could only be justified if they were an incentive to register and they must be "reasonable".
The potential sanction is included in the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill being debated for the first time in the House of Commons on Wednesday.

(more at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18179075 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18179075))

To be honest, if they really gave a shit, they should just auto-register the people rather than fucking fining them. Than again, I shouldn't expect any less from a government that is contemptuous of the people.

Fines over silly things are silly fucking fines and I'm opposed to them.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yeah sure. When you head out into the streets and protest like they're doing in Quebec right now, or plenty of other places, rather than wasting your time at a ballot box, that "will just be interpreted (by whom, exactly?) as "mere apathy". That's certainly what governments have had a habit of doing with protests lately. Come on...
As I said, an appeal to the state wasn't what I had in mind. The state will do what it will, as it always does; what I'm interested in is the working class, and it doesn't seem to me that any possible way of puncturing the false atmosphere of ideological consensus which we (the class) inhabit should be cast aside because we (the "left") object to its form without first making an at least halfway rigorous examination of its content.


The solution isn't the unproductive waste of time that is a "none of the above" option, which in any case sends no clear message as to the alternative that must be struggled for---it's to make it clear that the low turnout is not because of apathy. That's saying "fuck the lot of you" in a way that actually gets people's attention.Well, certainly, a mass-movement of the working class-for-itself would be preferably to any amount of ballot-box shenanigans. All I'm suggesting is that that there's a bit of a distance between here and there, and I don't like to make assumptions about what the space in between will look like. I've already made it clear that I'm not exactly committed (http://www.revleft.com/vb/uk-polls-open-t171090/index.html?p=2435591#post2435591) to ballot-spoiling as a point of praxis, I'm just not ruling anything out.

[Luís Henrique]

Well, if voting were compulsory, and enough people put "none of the above"...you could see just what percent of the country thought democracy was failing them in the electoral process, no?

Yes, but, then, we might, you know, have, you know, something, like, a... a... a... *gasp* *gasp* a... a... :scared:revolution?!?!?!? (faints)

And if so, how would we be able to remain radicals from the safety of our own homes?

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

Yes, but, then, we might, you know, have, you know, something, like, a... a... a... *gasp* *gasp* a... a... :scared:revolution?!?!?!? (faints)

And if so, how would we be able to remain radicals from the safety of our own homes?

Luís Henrique

I don't think your sarcasm is warranted. If you had said "regime change" instead of "revolution," then perhaps I would have agreed with you.

[Niall]

Um, what if there's a None of the Above option?



.

what if theres not???

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Um, spoil?

[Per Levy]

spoilage campaings are stupid, let me explain why:

1. if you have the time, the resources and the manpower to actually start such a huge campaing that might actually lead a big chunk of nonvoters to the the ballot and let them spoil their vote, then why not use all the resoures and time and manpower for something better then something no one gives a flying feather about.

2. you actually had to explain to nonvoters why spoilage would mean something else then nonvoting and is better then nonvoting. wich would be pretty difficult since most nonvoters dont give a shit about voting anyway and probally wont see what spoilage could possibly make things different or more positive then nonvoting.


The state will do what it will, as it always does; what I'm interested in is the working class, and it doesn't seem to me that any possible way of puncturing the false atmosphere of ideological consensus which we (the class) inhabit should be cast aside because we (the "left") object to its form without first making an at least halfway rigorous examination of its content.

so you want that people spoil their vote so you could see how many dont care about bourgeois democrazy? i mean if all nonvoters now go to the elections and spoil their votes it will be seen in a good light since almost 100% voters go to the elections and with that legitimizing the elections and bourgeosis democrazy.

[Tim Finnegan]

That's a wholly legitimate criticism, yes. As I said previously, I'm not particularly invested in spoilage as a point of practice (I didn't even shift my own arse to do the last time I had an opportunity), I'm just willing to consider it as an option. It's certainly no good as an immediate response, for the reasons you outline, but I don't pretend to know what the future will bring.

[Commiekirby]

It seems mighty backwards for a "Democracy" to punish those who may not value the Democratic process for political or just apathetic reasoning. After all, the idea is supposed to be about the freedom to choose and personal liberty.

[The Intransigent Faction]

That's a wholly legitimate criticism, yes. As I said previously, I'm not particularly invested in spoilage as a point of practice (I didn't even shift my own arse to do the last time I had an opportunity), I'm just willing to consider it as an option. It's certainly no good as an immediate response, for the reasons you outline, but I don't pretend to know what the future will bring.

In other words, you can't explain why it would be useful, so you resort to trying to weasel out of that by saying "well, who knows, maybe it will be useful in the future". Sorry my friend, the burden of proof lies on your side now, and that's not good enough.

[Sten]

If they genuinely want to encourage participation, they should switch to a system of automatic registration. Imposing fines is senseless.

[Tim Finnegan]

In other words, you can't explain why it would be useful, so you resort to trying to weasel out of that by saying "well, who knows, maybe it will be useful in the future". Sorry my friend, the burden of proof lies on your side now, and that's not good enough.
Fuck's sake, pal, you don't need to be so hostile. All I'm saying is that it might be something that proves vaguely fruitful in certain circumstances, not that it's absolutely necessary that we should all set about toot-sweet. Not every discussion has to be a bloody competition.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Just another way to exploit poor people. We all know who goes to the booths the least, poor people. Fuck that law.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Am I the only one confused about what everybody seems to be discussing. The law says nothing of forcing people to vote but to register or they will pay a fine. But it seems most people are interpreting that as the government forcing you to vote. You don't have to vote if your registered right? I'm registered to vote but don't have to vote.

[Lanky Wanker]

Guys, I have a solution: just vote conservative.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Am I the only one confused about what everybody seems to be discussing. The law says nothing of forcing people to vote but to register or they will pay a fine. But it seems most people are interpreting that as the government forcing you to vote. You don't have to vote if your registered right? I'm registered to vote but don't have to vote.

haha I just realised that myself..maybe should have made it clearer in my OP?

[Lanky Wanker]

haha I just realised that myself..maybe should have made it clearer in my OP?

Goddamn anarchists and their anti-state propaganda! :cursing: