PSL vs. ISO, Unions in Cuba

[Prometeo liberado]

http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/the-role-of-unions-in.html

I thought this may shed some light as to where the PSL would like to be, ideologically, and how they see the current crop of Trots. Wont give my opinion just yet as I want this to unfold on its own. Comes off sounding a little like a schoolyard fight I will say.

[HEAD ICE]

Why shouldn’t Valdés Mesa urge workers to make their workplaces more efficient and productive, especially when the wealth that is created directly benefits the people?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0a3fg-fUWdw/T3On8vGgmVI/AAAAAAAAA4A/PJg-1gRMH5Y/s1600/bunk-the-wire.gif

talk about a disaster of an article lmao

[blake 3:17]

I have a hard time understanding the anti-Cuba sentiments from IS types. There's often something a bit obsessive about it. I don't see the need to make Cuba out to be some perfect form of socialism (it isn't), but the revolution has managed to achieve incredible goals. It has also managed to correct itself -- eg. abolishing the death penalty -- without doing anything too nutty.

I've done some Latin American solidarity work in a group including a leading ISer -- he defends the revolutionary processes in Venezuela and Bolivia while harshly criticizing Cuba.

Farber is a very thoughtful and intelligent man. Too bad on this.

[REDSOX]

Sam faber talks like Mike Gonzalez of the Socialist Workers Party in Great britain. Like faber Gonzales has contempt for the achievements of the Cuban revolution in the extremely difficult circumstances the revolution finds itself in. People like Faber, Gonzales et al are a trend of petit bourgeois socialists who have contempt for third world revolutions and think that socialism can firstly only happen in developed countries. If Cuba ever found itself in a situation where the imperialists were going to militarily attack Cuba God forbid, it would be fascinating to see what position these gentlemen would take considering their hatred of Cuba and its workers.

[Prometeo liberado]

There seems to be a very visible and clear road that Becker could have taken this. Instead of attacking Farber and the ISO, which isn't hard to do, he implies that his message is more defensive and apologetic. Why give the ISO so much credibility when a well defined stance is all that was needed? Instead we get bickering amongst a small and smaller sects. Good allocation of time and resources Becker.

[Raúl Duke]

I'm quite baffled the PSL uses the concept of "social wage" (free university, healthcare, et.al) as an argument...by that kind of logic even certain European countries might be "socialist!" :rolleyes:

[Aurora]

They're both wrong on Cuba, Farber is right to criticize shitty bureaucrats whether in the state or in the unions but so wrong for adhering to the counter-revolutionary bureaucratic collectivist theory, the PSL is right to defend the gains of the Cuban revolution but so wrong to call this Socialism and to apologise for the Cuban states moves towards the restoration of capitalism.

[KurtFF8]

There seems to be a very visible and clear road that Becker could have taken this. Instead of attacking Farber and the ISO, which isn't hard to do, he implies that his message is more defensive and apologetic. Why give the ISO so much credibility when a well defined stance is all that was needed? Instead we get bickering amongst a small and smaller sects. Good allocation of time and resources Becker.

That is not the author of the piece in question.

[Geiseric]

All i've seen from both groups are god awful....

[Prometeo liberado]

That is not the author of the piece in question.

Becker and La Riva are "married". Pretty much one head with two bodies, been that way for years.

[KurtFF8]

Becker and La Riva are "married". Pretty much one head with two bodies, been that way for years.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/customavatars/avatar13879_1.gif

[Prometeo liberado]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/customavatars/avatar13879_1.gif

Exhausting, isn't it?


Really, they are married.

[KurtFF8]

Therefore all of her articles are ghost written by him?

[Imposter Marxist]

The ISO is correct in this instance. State Capitalism is just being State Capitalism. Soon the Cuban Bourgeoisie will privateize all the capital so that they can better control the Law of Value and become the new capitalist class

[KurtFF8]

Soon the Cuban Bourgeoisie will privateize all the capital so that they can better control the Law of Value and become the new capitalist class

This logic makes no sense. According to you the "Cuban Bourgeoisie...will become the new capitalist class." So it will go from being the capitalist class to...being the capitalist class?

[Imposter Marxist]

Well simple, one is a state capitalist class, and the other is a regular capitalist class, the latter which allows more freedom to protest, freedom of speech, etc. So hopefully real socialism will grow out of it

[Lucretia]

...but the revolution has managed to achieve incredible goals.

So has capitalism, but we don't support it either.

[KurtFF8]

Well simple, one is a state capitalist class, and the other is a regular capitalist class, the latter which allows more freedom to protest, freedom of speech, etc. So hopefully real socialism will grow out of it

That's hardly an analysis, however. Just add the adjective "state" before it doesn't really explain the nature of the class and how it's involved with the production process of Cuba, nor how it's distinct from the "private" capitalist class. All in all the state/private distinction being made here reflects the same state/private distinction that many neo-classical and NeoLiberal folks make which has little to do with the Marxian method of analysis at least.


So has capitalism, but we don't support it either.

Indeed, although capitalism in Cuba was hardly achieving such goals, which themselves weren't reached until after the revolutionary movement declared itself socialist and made an effort to develop along different lines than the capitalist past.

Of course some people think this was all a big farce when secretly they adored the system they claimed to be fighting against, but such portrayals make it difficult to account for the expropriations and antagonisms between the revolutionary movement and landowners/capitalists.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

So has capitalism, but we don't support it either.
But as some people here will be happy to tell you, the accomplishments of the cuban revolution make it´s rulers and government immune from criticism.:rolleyes:
It doesn´t even matter what the cuban regime or bureaucrats do or say, there will be the hordes of western leftists who defend it passionately.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

All in all the state/private distinction being made here reflects the same state/private distinction that many neo-classical and NeoLiberal folks make which has little to do with the Marxian method of analysis at least.



Indeed, although capitalism in Cuba was hardly achieving such goals, which themselves weren't reached until after the revolutionary movement declared itself socialist and made an effort to develop along different lines than the capitalist past.

So declarations by bearded men are the driving force of history and what ultimately moves society forward. Brilliant marxist analysis!:rolleyes:

[Prometeo liberado]

Therefore all of her articles are ghost written by him?

If you re-read her stuff, starting with the early WWP you can really tell the difference in tone and content as she and Becker became an item. Now that they live together I really doubt that she writes much without his editorial hand in the mix. So when I see her name in the by-line I dont see her face so much as I see his hand.

[A Marxist Historian]

Sam faber talks like Mike Gonzalez of the Socialist Workers Party in Great britain. Like faber Gonzales has contempt for the achievements of the Cuban revolution in the extremely difficult circumstances the revolution finds itself in. People like Faber, Gonzales et al are a trend of petit bourgeois socialists who have contempt for third world revolutions and think that socialism can firstly only happen in developed countries. If Cuba ever found itself in a situation where the imperialists were going to militarily attack Cuba God forbid, it would be fascinating to see what position these gentlemen would take considering their hatred of Cuba and its workers.

Sam Farber has been around for a loooong time. Surprised he's still alive.

There was a Shachtmanite organization in Cuba in the late '50s when the revolution happened. If I recall right, he was in it.

Whereas Shachtman himself, and most of the Shachtmanites in Cuba and worldwide, supported the Bay of Pigs together with the CIA and the US Marines, Farber wouldn't go that far, which is how he ended up, after fleeing Cuba, with the political ancestors of the ISO, way back when.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Therefore all of her articles are ghost written by him?


Not at all. I've met Gloria La Riva, she is more impressive politically than he is. Certainly a much better public speaker.

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the other way around.

-M.H.-

[Prometeo liberado]

I'm less concerned with the debate about whether Cuba is socialist or not. Nothing will come of that. What does concern me is the way that this subject was broached. A swipe at the ISO and Farber as if with all the shit going on the most pressing need is what the ISO are doing? The PSL is so defensive about the writings of Farber that this had to be written? If the Cuba issue is so paramount right now, and it is, then wouldn't it be wiser to, and show a lot of class by, putting out a "position" type of paper. Maybe mentioning that other organizations may have this and that view but this is where PSL stands and why. But to fire off a salvo at the ISO comes off as amateurish and petty. Often used words when talking about the PSL for sure but when your the Supreme Pontifical Potentate of the PSL as La Riva/Becker are, aren't you supposed to lead by example? Maybe they are. My friend Raspdale used to work at Saks Fifth Ave. He told me that the people who shop there, the leeches, the idle, the users, the walking dead, do so all day, everyday. Sucking the life out of the poor unfortunates who need to work there. We dont need the PSL. But the question that my friend Raspdale always muttered at the end of his shift still begs, "where do these people come from?". I understand what he was saying now. :(

[Prometeo liberado]

Not at all. I've met Gloria La Riva, she is more impressive politically than he is. Certainly a much better public speaker.

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the other way around.

-M.H.-
I partly agree with this. La Riva has the power of speech, life in her tired eyes, and a modicum of passion left in her. Many of her best speeches are at the least co-written by him, by her own admission. Becker on the other hand has always been the hand holding the strings. Can you blame her? When you love the most boring man in the world you take what you can get. If that means a hand reaching out saying "read this", well then just chalk it up to love PSL style. Marriage is a compromise people and who could teach us more about compromising one's self than Becker/La Riva?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Sam faber talks like Mike Gonzalez of the Socialist Workers Party in Great britain. Like faber Gonzales has contempt for the achievements of the Cuban revolution in the extremely difficult circumstances the revolution finds itself in. People like Faber, Gonzales et al are a trend of petit bourgeois socialists who have contempt for third world revolutions and think that socialism can firstly only happen in developed countries. It has nothing to do with thinking that socialism has to happen in developed countries first. It has to do with the question of what socialism is. Do you need socialist consciousness? Well then how was the Cuban revolution a conscious act of the working class when A) The working class were not directly involved or organized to take power B) Revolutionaries took power and said it wasn't a socialist revolution until several years later.


If Cuba ever found itself in a situation where the imperialists were going to militarily attack Cuba God forbid, it would be fascinating to see what position these gentlemen would take considering their hatred of Cuba and its workers.Well you could wonder, or there's this thing called the internet where you can find information about things in order to prevent giving misinformed opinions and appearing silly.


We oppose U.S. intervention in Cuba, the Middle East, and elsewhere.

Hatred of Cuba and its workers? No, we just want to them put themselves in power.

We have no argument with many of the reforms that Cuba has, we have no problem with any country trying to defend itself from imperialism, Cuba certainty has faced many hardships. But so have many countries and when we talk about Cuba here, who and what are we talking about anyway? Even in the way supporters talk about Cuba, when they talk of Cuba they mean the government. The government has to do this or that to resist US imperialism, they have to make this or that trade-off due to economic hardships.

The problem with Cuba is that workers are not in power and if Farber catalogs all the failings and puffed-up claims of the Government and it's supporters, it's only because the defendors of Cuba's claims to Socialism always come down to: "Look at these reforms that were passed, isn't it so much better than in other countries". But Farber's minutia is the trees and the forest is the lack of worker's power in Cuba at any point.

Even according to the article by the PSL defending Cuba as a "socialist" society, workers, at most, have a "seat at the table":



Cuban workers play a role in deciding how resources are allocated

The determination of how Cuba’s resources are allocated—including wages—is a decision made by the government with input by the people, within the framework of a planned economy.
...
Those debates were widely reported in the Cuban press, and a very broad range of opinions and suggestions taken into consideration.

Wonderful. US worker's opinions are taken into consideration by bosses when we put up enough of a fuss!

Marx never wrote: Worker's of the world unite! You can have a say in the tightness of your chains to win!


I have a hard time understanding the anti-Cuba sentiments from IS types. There's often something a bit obsessive about it. I don't see the need to make Cuba out to be some perfect form of socialism (it isn't), but the revolution has managed to achieve incredible goals. It has also managed to correct itself -- eg. abolishing the death penalty -- without doing anything too nutty.

I've done some Latin American solidarity work in a group including a leading ISer -- he defends the revolutionary processes in Venezuela and Bolivia while harshly criticizing Cuba.I think the problem is not that it isn't perfect socialism but that it's not socialism at all. Yes, some good reforms, often some very strong and effective arguments about US imperialism and so on from the leadership, often admirable solidarity with national liberation movements and so on. But socialism can't come from a parliament, a coup, or soviet tanks - it has to be worker's power from below otherwise, materially, the working class can't rule itself and power goes to the bureaucrats or military officials or whatnot. I don't know about Farber specifically, since he writes for the ISO's paper sometimes, but itsn't a member, but the ISO has been consistent on this. The most recent SW and ISR have articles about nationalizations in Bolivia and Argentina - neither of which could be described only as ruling class bamboozlery (i.e. they do reflect some of what's going on in the class struggle in Latin America) but they also don't constitute some move towards socialism.


Indeed, although capitalism in Cuba was hardly achieving such goals, which themselves weren't reached until after the revolutionary movement declared itself socialist and made an effort to develop along different lines than the capitalist past. So socialism depends on the leaders of the country developing socialist consciousness rather than depending on the working class developing socialist consciousness and consequentially taking over society to reorganize it along those lines?


Of course some people think this was all a big farce when secretly they adored the system they claimed to be fighting against, but such portrayals make it difficult to account for the expropriations and antagonisms between the revolutionary movement and landowners/capitalists. No, I don't think they secretly adored the system - I think they didn't like imperialism, but were not at first explicitly or even ostensibly against capitalism. I think it was a national liberation movement at a time in history where a whole series of struggles happened - Cuba's movement tied it's wagons to the USSR for support against US hostility to imperial resistance and that's the source of Cuba's "socialism" - not working class power.

Many other countries from Cuban "socialism" to "African Socialism" to "Arab Nationalism" and so on had these kinds of conflicts in trying to nationalize and modernize the country, but that does not mean it was socialism. It's a superficial argument to say that "socialist features" indicate a socialist society - it's the kind of logic right-wingers use to try and say that Nazism and Communism were the same because both Hitler and Stalin had the same policy on some specific thing.

[Imposter Marxist]

Brilliant work, comrade higgins. Tony cliff looks down upon you with glee

[KurtFF8]

If you re-read her stuff, starting with the early WWP you can really tell the difference in tone and content as she and Becker became an item. Now that they live together I really doubt that she writes much without his editorial hand in the mix. So when I see her name in the by-line I dont see her face so much as I see his hand.

In other words, it is pure speculation on your part to link her writings to his. (/ assuming that he somehow took over her writing)


I'm less concerned with the debate about whether Cuba is socialist or not. Nothing will come of that.

I agree with the second sentence here the most, which is why I'm not going to waste my time with all of the other comments directed at me. It will just lead to the same old arguments that have been hashed out on this very forum time and time again.