Social Democratic Parties

[Freiheit]

In almost every European country is a Social Democratic or Socialsitic Party present. But in my oppinion they failured. They broke their principles, for example the socialistic government in Germany. What does Schroeder to change the country. The government is too pacific, they lost their revolutonair ideals. They became another capitalistic party. I do not mean they should need forces. But we need a new begin. For example in Germany, there is needed a peaceful revolution, a new begin. The society must be changed, we do not need this policy of the middle.

WE WANT THE REAL SOCIAL DEMOCRACY

[CommieBastard]

I agree...
The Labour party in Britain used to be reasonable... in the 1945 govt. they made some massive changes and reforms... but ever since then they have done NOTHING for the country...

[Freiheit]

In Switzerland, where I lived til August, the only political revolutionary powers, are the Swiss communist party (pda) and some trade unions which organize demonstrations and strikes. They also inform the people. Because WEF was in Davos, Switzerland, there are now many anti-capitalistic organisations. But all this institutions are mostly ignored by the press and tv. Of course, there are some communist newspapers, but they are boycotted and noene sells them etc.
But if they would have the support of the Social Democratic Partie, which is one of the biggest parties in Switzerland, all this organisations would have more power and would be respected as well as fair handeled.

THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY MUST AGAIN BECOME REVOLUTIONARY!

[koba]

The major problem with leftists is they wont join forces .... a slight differance in agreements and they split up and make other parties. They should all team up all work together to form an alliance against the other Capitalist parties. What happens to often is you have half a dozen leftist parties .... not one has enough $$ for publicity and to let out their message, but you put them together and they would. Once they win then with a referendum the people could choose exactly which party they want to govern. Anyway a Coalition is greatly needed with leftist parties. What do you think ?

[Freiheit]

a coalition is a good thing, and it would help that is right. but i thinik some different interpretations are needed as well.

[gooddoctor]

there are already coalitions all over the world. my first experience with a political party was when i met some comrades from the democratic socialist party in australia. on m1 all the socialist parties in oz consolidated under the socialist alliance and i was at the founding conference. that was when i first decided that democratic socialism was much more effective than communism in the anti-capitalist war.
in england the same thing happened on m1. however, it is unfortunately much more sectarian. this is largely the socialist workers party's fault. they are still the best hope for socialism in england but are intellectual snobs, not as broad-based and too old-fashioned to meet the demands of an extremely colourful and mixed anti-capitalist movement. things are changing, but until the swp learns to cooperate and stops being so narrow in their vision, socialism will never happen.
in scotland, the swp in scotland was merged into the scottish socialist party on m1. now in scotland we have all socialists (except communists of course, those fucking stalinist bastards have always betrayed us) working for the same party, reading the same newspaper, voting for the same people, persuing the same basic goals, and in only three years we have become the fifth largest party in scotland and we won't stop growing. from what i can tell, the ssp is one of the most advanced socialist parties in the world. we are very broad-based placing democracy in the hands of the grass roots rather than the revolutionary elite, enjoy mass support from society, put social and environmental considerations before economic ones and our only msp and unofficial leader tommy sheridan is not only an outstanding politician and great speaker, he is also extremely moral and is respected immensely by all. in the next elections to the scottish parliament in 2003 the ssp will overtake the tories to become the fourth largest party. recent opinion poles suggest that we are almost neck and neck. we are hoping to put five or six more comrades in power with tommy, who is loved by the whole nation (except capitalist pig dogs of course!). this is because of solidarity. remember that this is only the beginning of the anti-capitalist movement and look how far we've come! it's happening all over the world, but people don't know where to turn when they decide to fight because we don't get any media coverage.
i would suggest joining the biggest socialist party in your country, there will be one to represent your interests trust me (but not the communists, they cannot cope with the demands of the broad-based anti-capitalist movement and are defunct). they may be difficult to find but you can use the internet. essentially, all socialist parties are the same, but the bigger ones will have better communications and therefore the potential to take a larger section of the vote.
chose which party you join carefully because it will influence the way you view politics and the world. if you join the communists they will warp your mind and fill you with useless theory and won't let you go easily. broad-based socialist parties are the best because they tend to be the most democratic and fun to work in. the emergence of broad-based socialism is also a product of our times. they have risen to meet the needs of the anti-capitalists and therefore are the best hope for us today. socialist parties from the past were founded for very different reasons and therefore will be entrenched in out-dated ideas and will scorn the more modern parties.
look to the future comrades, it's bright and red, as long as we remeber that our best weapon is solidarity. power to the people.

(Edited by gooddoctor at 4:31 pm on Nov. 19, 2001)

[CommieBastard]

wtf happened to your mind gooddoctor? your mind has been warped in exactly the way you criticise communists of...
you have succumbed to the common misconception that communism equates to stalinism, you have succumbed to the idea that any part of the left should be excluded, instead of included and conversed with. Have a difference? discuss it. You can only strike up resentment by the attitude you display.
Every word you speak is so full of dogmatic spin it actually scares me... i fear for your mind...
To hear such irony as your last statement 'solidarity'.... when you have just ranted about how communists must be exluded is purely hilarious....


As for your concerns about revolutionary vanguard this has been a thing which almost all modern communists have discareded, most have adopted the view of Gramsci that the revolution must take it's leaders not just from the bourgois, but that the bourgois should help educate a new group of proletariat leaders, and allow all proletariat to expand as fully as possible their intellectual understanding. It is these ideas of Gramscis which are particularly important to the revolutionary movement, as i see in them a way in which a beauracracy like the Soviet Union had can be avoided. I am as zealous an anti-stalinist as anti-imperialist/capitalist/fascist.

Please do not use the broad based statements and assumptions that you have spouted in that comment, because all that they demonstrate is that you have become completely indoctrinated... i would say that the movement you are involved in has failed to educate, and has merely programmed it's follwing, and thus is why if it achieved victory over capitalism it will never achieve the aims it set out for....

[Freiheit]

CommieBastard is right:

stalinism is one interpretation of communsim, it is the worst one, and worse than capitalism, but there are other democratic interpretations of communism. This interpretations are important.

[Guest1]

In Canada, teh NDP is soon going to go through some reform. They're the only party in parliament that opposed the war effort. They have some good ideas, but don't have direction. They are way too stretched out, they confuse the voters. This year, they're talking about taking the party further left, joining forces with the popular student movement against capitalism and changing their name to Social Democratic Party instead of National Democratic Party. Their actually aiming for the students now. Depending on what their new aims are, I might seek out information about getting involved.

As for the debate on exclusion, that is our problem. The infighting is useless. Move the country left, then decide where to go after that. Once you've got the Socialism, you've got the big step which requires unity behind you. After that, it's ok for parties to debate taking it elsewhere.

[Freiheit]

the ndp is no leftist party, it is a party of the 'middle'. ok, it is the only canadian party you can a least talk about (parties in the parliament).
when there will be a socialist revolution in the western world, canada will be one of the latest if no the last country which enjoy the revolution, because the canadian 'democratic' system has some errors based on the conservative british colonial system. (iam working at a assignement in scholl: canada is not democratic, if iam done i can show you).

[Moskitto]

communism is not stalinism. I am a council communist which is nearly the oppsite of stalinism.

Then again most of the "communist" parties are quite stalinist and authoritarian in nature and I haven't found any large luxembourgist groups in the UK. I might join the Socialist party though.

[Guest1]

They're in no way "middle". Their startegy so far has been to try to go there, losing both left and middle because they're too close to the middle or too far left, but they aren't middle. As I said, I don't agree with their current policies, but they're planning to go radical (for government, at least). Who knows, maybe it'll be far enough, maybe it won't. I'm still interested in seeing where they take this.

[Freiheit]

but the ndp's power in the parliament is not very strong, i dont know the exactly number, but it is around an eighth or so.
please correct me if im wrong.

[gooddoctor]

bastard, first of all, there is no indoctrination in the ssp. like i said it's broad-based so you can think whatever the fuck you want as long as you aren't a fascist or capitalist. a lot of my friends are hardcore trots, and so am i to a certain extent. all of my opinions on the worth of communists, not as individuals but as socialist politicians, are based on history, observing their tactics and discussion with comrades of all sorts. i would just like to add that i am a committed marxist and support communist theory. but i also realise that capitalist theory looks very good on paper too. the real world sometimes calls for a little more than education in socialist literature in order to solve its vastly complex political contradictions. communism cannot do this, it is too heavily reliant on doctrines.

first and foremost, the reason i reject communism in the west is partly because it will never overthrow capitalism in a million years, and also because it is too utopian and theoretical, not based on observations of current affairs. answer me this: why won't the communists join any of the socialist alliances? because they don't give a shit about the anti-capitalist movement, that's why! there's no room for stubborn sectarianism in socialism; if someone doesn't like democratic decision making because it differs slightly from their interpretation of the communist manifesto then they are of no use to us or the movement. i merely talk out of personal experience. whenever i go to a political meeting, i see the scottish socialist voice being sold everywhere, that's good solidarity. but always there are a few communists hanging about selling their rag. what's the point? what can they possibly hope to achieve? i have nothing against them as individuals, at heart i too am a communist and know it to be right, but as a party they have nothing to offer anti-capitalists, who are truly interested in gaining power for the people, apart from a discussion forum for people who all think exactly the same thing. i'm not interested in theory, i just want to know how capitalism can be comprehensively destroyed forever and allow our inclusive, diverse and creative culture to flourish.

just look at what they've done in the past: nazi totalitarianism in the ussr leading to capitalist revolution in 1991; incompetent and reckless mismanagement forcing the ccp to resort to capitalism in china. the russians had 70 years to get it right but they failed us all. all other "communist" states in the past have been stalinist without exception, it was all just one huge and grotesque empire, state capitalism. i respect what people like lenin, castro and ho have done for their people, but they have been unable to bring them democracy because not everyone in society is true like them, and that's the bottom line. when i hear so many people here trying to apologise for this, it doesn't help quell my belief that communists haven't learnt a thing from history, something that they place far too much importance in. i don't want anything to do with this in my country, i would honestly prefer capitalism for my people. the longer we try to justify the crimes of those who took the name of communism in vain, the harder will be the struggle for radicalisation of the population. i mean, i come here and read about how stalin "is alright infact" and i have to ask myself if communists, as politicians, really understand the global political and social climate well enough to take power. in my opinion, they don't stand a fucking chance.

[Moskitto]

That's the annoying thing.

I'm a bit more left wing than most non-communist socialists.

But I'm not like the hard-line communists.

but as I said i'm a council communist which doesn't believe in a one-party state or support anything like the USSR.

[Freiheit]

Che y Marijuana, the leftest canadian party is actually
the party quebecois, there are pretty left-wing, even
more than the ndp. unfortunately it only exist in quebec,
the bloc quebecois which only exist outside quebec is
not the same, it is a conservative party like the alliance.