Syriza to Demand Guests Stand for the Party Leader?

[Die Neue Zeit]

OK, so it's not a true story, but if the right-populist Golden Dawn can do it (http://www.revleft.com/vb/golden-dawn-demands-t171598/index.html), why can't Syriza and the Greek left in general?


Given the media talk about Tsipras being charismatic, I'd rather have the Syriza leader be the focus of this kind of respect, though instead of intimidating the journalists who refuse, I'd put them in a position where they realistically cannot refuse to stand up; seated on the second row, behind a first row of party activists and ahead of a third row of more party activists.


I would certainly criticize Tsipras at other venues, but public press conferences are not the time to pull off the verbal equivalent of throwing eggs at someone else's face or other such unprofessional behaviour. It would be, for professional purposes, time to stand (and of course sit down when asked).


As for partisanship vs. "professionalism," journalists standing up before an appearing Tsipras would be more akin to standing up before a judge in a court of law. Real professionalism from both partisan and observant points of view is best served by standing up.

[NewLeft]

Why imitate the right? To legitimize SYRIZA?

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Why imitate the right? To legitimize SYRIZA?

It is called "Politics" my friend.

But i have to admit, SYRIZA is a bit of a dreamer party. They want to stay in the Eurozone, that means they have the ambition to transfrom the whole of the European Union into a social EU instead of the current Neo-Liberal EU. But the EU was a political project for neo-liberalism by France and Germany which is virtually institutionalised in the corrupt Brussels. I hope SYRIZA will decide to make party policy (in the long run) to leave the Eurozone and bring in the Drachma, because at the moment it looks very bad for the socialist dream of a social EU to come true. I guess it is "worth a try" and hence the party is going to try to transform the EU, but i don't see that any time soon... it looks more like currency break-up, nationalism and hyperinflation in Europe now.

[Fawkes]

I wouldn't stand when a Syriza member walks into the room, why would I stand when the leader does?

[black magick hustla]

i don't stand for any asshole

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why imitate the right?


It is called "Politics" my friend.


I wouldn't stand when a Syriza member walks into the room, why would I stand when the leader does?

He's the leader. Militant activists in Venezuela are doing the same to Chavez, standing up when he appears to speak in their midst.

[Zukunftsmusik]

oh, so this is serious? I thought someone was joking around after what Blanquist said in that thread on Golden Dawn.

Personally I have no experience from press conferences, but is it even normal to rise up for those holding the conference? It seems cheezy, really. I also don't see how the leader of a certain party present on a press conference, is anything "akin to a judge" in a court.

[Hit The North]

^^^ Don't think it is serious

[Zukunftsmusik]

just noticed this was in non-political


sooooooo yeah :blushing:

[Raúl Duke]

I think the idea is silly and I hope I don't have to stand all because xyz party leader shows up. After all, aren't we egalitarians?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Don't think it is serious

Actually, I am serious strictly on the subject of conduct.


I think the idea is silly and I hope I don't have to stand all because xyz party leader shows up. After all, aren't we egalitarians?

Perhaps, but you're then discarding personal charisma as a tool to organize popular support. Standing up may lend to such legitimacy.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Actually, I am serious strictly on the subject of conduct.

wow. :confused:



Perhaps, but you're then discarding personal charisma as a tool to organize popular support. Standing up may lend to such legitimacy.

To demand that people rise up doesn't exactly say anything about some person's charisma, though.

[Raúl Duke]

I'm highly skeptical that standing up or not has something to do with "personal charisma," "popular support," and "organizing."

Here's how I expect charisma to work for someone in a public forum.
When the charismatic individual comes in, no one stands up. But hey, perhaps after he's given a speech or if he's in a discussion and raises a good point people might congratulate him, clap for him, hell maybe even a standing ovation. Maybe, when he comes in the room, people might smile at him or her or even stand up to shake his hand...but the whole ceremonial "stand-up" stuff is just....blah. Personally, I think it sense the wrong message and has connotations of personality cults.

To be "expected" (or enforced, in some cases; for example the Golden Dawn v journalists) to stand up for someone all because they enter the room and grace us with his or her presence is just silly and really has nothing to do with charisma or organizing. It also seems artificial to me, I've been in situations were people are expected (and sometimes forced) to stand up and its seldom rouse me, in fact if anything it elicited feelings of contempt and passive-aggressiveness.

[Zealot]

I would stand just out of formality but if someone yelled, intimidated and childishly demanded of me to either stand up or leave, I would leave. I think your idea of seating Party members in the front and at certain other areas is a good idea, as they would have the ability to lead the mood/procession of the occasion, including the standing, clapping, etc.

[Fawkes]

He's the leader.

Oh shit, really? I did not know that. I'm sorry, yeah, it makes total sense now. Thanks for clearing that up for us. I mean, if it's the leader, we should be licking his boots clean

[Hit The North]

Actually, I am serious strictly on the subject of conduct.


So if they insisted that you stand up, click your heels and throw a Nazi salute, you'd do it just to be polite, would you?

Look what a strict attitude to conduct did for the German people in the 1930s!


He's the leaderSo was Gary Glitter and now no one wants to even mention him.



Perhaps, but you're then discarding personal charisma as a tool to organize popular support. Standing up may lend to such legitimacy.

So now you've provided us with the most important reason for the journalists to not stand up for the bloated fascist fuck. They should stand only so they are better able to show him their arses!

[Die Neue Zeit]

Here's how I expect charisma to work for someone in a public forum.
When the charismatic individual comes in, no one stands up. But hey, perhaps after he's given a speech or if he's in a discussion and raises a good point people might congratulate him, clap for him, hell maybe even a standing ovation. Maybe, when he comes in the room, people might smile at him or her or even stand up to shake his hand...but the whole ceremonial "stand-up" stuff is just....blah. Personally, I think it sense the wrong message and has connotations of personality cults.

If said individual already has a reputation of being charismatic, folks should stand up. There are varying degrees of personality cults, from the most organizationally useful to the most obscene.


So if they insisted that you stand up, click your heels and throw a Nazi salute, you'd do it just to be polite, would you?

Look what a strict attitude to conduct did for the German people in the 1930s!

Come on, that's an exaggeration of conduct! Merely standing up is nonetheless a sign of courtesy, while sitting down indicates boorishness.


So now you've provided us with the most important reason for the journalists to not stand up for the bloated fascist fuck. They should stand only so they are better able to show him their arses!

Hey, I'm quite open to that idea, but this thread is about charismatic left leaders like Besancenot, Chavez, Lafontaine, Melenchon, Sheridan, Tsipras, Udaltsov, etc. I'm sure that only hooligans would "stand up" for the sole purpose of showing them their arses.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Why would a leftist party imitate something a neo-Nazi group does?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Again, I did not suggest at all that journalists be yelled at or haggled with to stand up. :confused:

Standing up before a judge in a court of law is hardly a neo-Nazi invention.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Why would I want to stand up for a judge? That's the last motherfucker I want to stand up for.

[Raúl Duke]

Standing up before a judge in a court of law is hardly a neo-Nazi invention.

But a bourgeois liberal and/or some such invention. In that case, people are force to or may be held in "contempt of court." Personally, I hope post-revolution all that would change.


There are varying degrees of personality cults, from the most organizationally useful to the most obscene.


I don't know...I'm highly skeptical of that. Can you give an example of an "organizationally useful" cult of personality and how/why it was such? Are they even acceptable by leftist principles? I think even Marx himself was derisive about such things.

I thought we were all suppose to be egalitarian. I don't mind if people may choose to do so (stand up, etc) but to enforce such a thing I do mind.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why would I want to stand up for a judge? That's the last motherfucker I want to stand up for.

Even if you're not the defendant, you'd still be obligated.


I don't know...I'm highly skeptical of that. Can you give an example of an "organizationally useful" cult of personality and how/why it was such? Are they even acceptable by leftist principles? I think even Marx himself was derisive about such things.

I thought we were all suppose to be egalitarian. I don't mind if people may choose to do so (stand up, etc) but to enforce such a thing I do mind.

Well, to be fair I didn't advocate hard enforcement. My suggestion of seating arrangements is one of nudging.

"Organizationally useful" cults were employed by German Social Democracy via the "living" and posthumous cults of Lassalle and the softer sentiments towards Bebel. The posthumous cults, of course, inspired the posthumous Lenin cult.

By using that term head-on, I think there's wiggle room later on for moderation (as opposed to "charisma"). Hehe, if militant workers are advanced enough, the cult could later on become a mere cynical attitude (i.e., Brezhnev).

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Even if you're not the defendant, you'd still be obligated.And why should that be?

[Sir Comradical]

I'd support it if it's about forcing the bourgeois media to show some fucking respect for the left.

[Sasha]

oh great, its DNZ with his parliamenterism meets charismatic dictatorship fetish schizophrenia again... will this be a part of your "caesarism" or whatever you where on about? Maybe we should also reintroduce what most people think was the customary Roman salutation for their leaders... oh wait...

[Die Neue Zeit]

oh great, its DNZ with his parliamenterism meets charismatic dictatorship fetish schizophrenia again... will this be a part of your "caesarism" or whatever you where on about? Maybe we should also reintroduce what most people think was the customary Roman salutation for their leaders... oh wait...

Third World conditions are not relevant to this discussion, and again neither is neo-Nazi conduct. :glare:


And why should that be?

I'm only stating what is now.


I'd support it if it's about forcing the bourgeois media to show some fucking respect for the left.

That's quite an emotional statement. :)

[Sir Comradical]

oh great, its DNZ with his parliamenterism meets charismatic dictatorship fetish schizophrenia again... will this be a part of your "caesarism" or whatever you where on about? Maybe we should also reintroduce what most people think was the customary Roman salutation for their leaders... oh wait...

To be honest I wish the left had appropriated the Roman salute before Hitler just because it's fucking cool. But because it belongs to the fascist right any use of it conjures up notions of leadership cults and authoritarianism.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'm only stating what is now.

And it's our goal to change what is now, not to recreate it ourselves. That is our goals right?


To be honest I wish the left had appropriated the Roman salute before Hitler just because it's fucking cool. But because it belongs to the fascist right any use of it conjures up notions of leadership cults and authoritarianism.
What's so cool about that salute? I think a raised fist is way cooler than the Roman salute. A raised fist represents action, resistance, solidarity, a fighting spirit. The Roman salute?

[Die Neue Zeit]

To be honest I wish the left had appropriated the Roman salute before Hitler just because it's fucking cool. But because it belongs to the fascist right any use of it conjures up notions of leadership cults and authoritarianism.

Off-topic: At best, if it were to have been appropriated, a left-arm rendition would have been more appropriate. The bourgeoisie already employed the right-arm imagery in France and the US (Bellamy).

[Crux]

oh great, its DNZ with his parliamenterism meets charismatic dictatorship fetish schizophrenia again... will this be a part of your "caesarism" or whatever you where on about? Maybe we should also reintroduce what most people think was the customary Roman salutation for their leaders... oh wait...
Stand for the social-proletocrat Caesar! Hail! DNZ is so so lost...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

*Opens DNZs file*

*Marks: 'should never be considered for a promotion or any position of power'*

*HGW/104*

[o well this is ok I guess]

Do I have to stand and salute when DNZ enters a thread?

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

This thread is just disturbing.

[Crux]

*Opens DNZs file*

*Marks: 'should never be considered for a promotion or any position of power'*

*HGW/104*
as luck would have it, in any real sense of the word, DNZ is completely irrelevant politically. You should try asking him about any real political experience he might have. It's quite amusing to see him actively ignore such questions.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

as luck would have it, in any real sense of the word, DNZ is completely irrelevant politically. You should try asking him about any real political experience he might have. It's quite amusing to see him actively ignore such questions.

I think you'll find, comrade, that in the co-spatial worker-class tred-union dynamic that has befallen the social-precariat, it is not real activism but the initiation and deployment thereof of useful charisma as utilised by Mssrs. Chavez, Caesar that will lead the subjugation of the bourgeois class [my emboldening] to the will of those who practice alternative culture, as preached by historic Social-Democrat-cum-worker-class-precarious-something-turnez-vous-renegade Kautsky, as elucidated by a paper that I presented here on behalf of comrades Lih and MacNair, I think you'll find comrade. ;):):confused:

[Crux]

That was brilliant. While I might occasionally have time for the Weekly Worker (the gossip is delicious) I find that DNZ theoretical inventions to be not only absurd and annoying in form but the more I take time to dig through his pretentious and self-styled terminology the more I dislike the actual content. Wasted dislike to be sure, but this is the internet after all. If it wasn't for that I'd be blissfully unaware of his absurd stalinist reformist hybrid "cleverly" hidden in his "theoretical" diarrhea, that is bullshit. If I had my way "social-proletocracy" would be restricted. Wait, what am I saying, then I'd be stuck with him in OI forever.

[Die Neue Zeit]

If it wasn't for that I'd be blissfully unaware of his absurd stalinist reformist hybrid

Look who's the reformist here? Look in the mirror.


While I might occasionally have time for the Weekly Worker (the gossip is delicious)

I find their not-so-ignorant discussions on program and strategy to be more worthwhile. :)


Do I have to stand and salute when DNZ enters a thread?

That's not a style of acknowledgement that I personally like as a potential speaker, actually. My personal preference is closer to Raul's Duke's, but with motivations all around for such clapping and standing ovations.

[Crux]

"potential speaker"? You're funny.

[Rafiq]

Syriza aside, I wouldn't mind if it's exclusive to the bourgeois press scum, just to humiliate them.

[A Marxist Historian]

He's the leader. Militant activists in Venezuela are doing the same to Chavez, standing up when he appears to speak in their midst.

And in Chile under Allende, no doubt militant activists stood for the guy Allende appointed to run the army, a fella named Pinochet...

Ick, is all I can say.

It is probably physically safer to stand for Bonapartist dictators like Chavez, populist or otherwise. Not something to be encouraged however.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Even if you're not the defendant, you'd still be obligated.



Well, to be fair I didn't advocate hard enforcement. My suggestion of seating arrangements is one of nudging.

"Organizationally useful" cults were employed by German Social Democracy via the "living" and posthumous cults of Lassalle and the softer sentiments towards Bebel. The posthumous cults, of course, inspired the posthumous Lenin cult.

By using that term head-on, I think there's wiggle room later on for moderation (as opposed to "charisma"). Hehe, if militant workers are advanced enough, the cult could later on become a mere cynical attitude (i.e., Brezhnev).

On this I'm a Khrushchevite. Cults of personality are a bad thing.

Marx would certainly never have stood for Lassalle. In fact, Marx couldn't stand Lassalle period.

-M.H.-

[Bronco]

Indeed, we should all stand for the great Alexis Tsipras, he is the man leading us to revolution

[Die Neue Zeit]

On this I'm a Khrushchevite. Cults of personality are a bad thing.

Marx would certainly never have stood for Lassalle. In fact, Marx couldn't stand Lassalle period.

Marx was far too exiled to be pressured towards standing for Lassalle or even for Bebel, but if I were living way back then, I would definitely have stood out of political professionalism and personal conduct. ;)


Indeed, we should all stand for the great Alexis Tsipras, he is the man leading us to revolution

"To a workers government" as in the Comintern slogan might be more accurate. ;)