Revleft's attitude towards learning.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I recently stumbled upon an article written by a Trotskyist blogger about our beloved revleft.com. The article makes a reasonable criticism of our community; pointing out a number of our faults and failings. The most significant criticism this blogger made of our website, in my opinion, was that we have an attitude of intellectual meritocracy. Here's the quote in it's entirity:
"Second, many residents of RevLeft seem to have fallen into an attitude that I’ve encountered with many Marxists. I’m not sure exactly how to describe it, but it’s something like an intellectual meritocracy. Education isn’t viewed as a collective venture we’re all partners in regardless of our level of experience, but as a rigid ladder. Let me explain it this way: at my university, I recently took a course on Shakespeare. The professor of this course taught us pretty much his interpretation of Shakespeare, but any attempt to challenge his views were smacked down with “I’ve been studying Shakespeare for years- once you have as well, then we’ll talk”. The same problem seems to pop up a lot in RevLeft (and in Marxism in general). “I’ve been studying this aspect of Marxism for years, once you’ve spend time reading _________ and __________- then we’ll discuss it. Until, accept my teachings.”

This is really absolutely true, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone. What can we as a community do to change our attitude towards learning?


Oh, and here's a link to the article if you want to read it: http://trotskyite.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/revleft/

[Koba Junior]

Oh, how I've seen this rampant on the site, along with a very childish hostility against those whose opinions differ.

[Prometeo liberado]

I would say this is true and not so true. The culture that exist here is one of the carrot and the stick, with a chuckle in between. Very rarely have I encountered a rookie being jabbed at for lack of knowledge. Now lack of depth in ones argument will result in a good ole fashioned back hand. Come to the party and ask if you don't know. But don't show up and say you can handle your booze only to be found puking in the parents bedroom. Follow?

[Yuppie Grinder]

I would say this is true and not so true. The culture that exist here is one of the carrot and the stick, with a chuckle in between. Very rarely have I encountered a rookie being jabbed at for lack of knowledge. Now lack of depth in ones argument will result in a good ole fashioned back hand. Come to the party and ask if you don't know. But don't show up and say you can handle your booze only to be found puking in the parents bedroom. Follow?
That's true. I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it amusing whenever someone who has passionately identified themselves as a hardline, anti-revisionist Marxist-Lenninist-Maoist-Avakianist-MaoistRebelNewsist for a few months asks what the basics of Marx And Engels' thought are.
The point is that instead of replying to this with snobbery we should find a constructive and informative way of discussing so we can actually have some conversations that don't turn into bickering.

[The Jay]

When I first came here, and still do now, I used more of the Socratic method of learning. Mostly, people were very helpful and gave great, well thought and reasoned responses. When I would talk to other newer users it was more of a collaborative discussion. It all depends on who you talk to and in what way.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

That guy's blog has been discussed here 7 or 8 months ago, As I remember he was agonizing over whether to join the ISO, SocAlt, or some other group. I think he spent way too much time agonizing.

As far as his criticisms of this forum goes, he's partly right but so what? Its an internet forum, not a political organization. RevLeft is accessible to the general public, to anyone who claims to be a leftist. You get a wide variety of levels of leftist education here, from people who are struggling with a comment in the Grundrisse and Marx's concept of land rent to someone who just discovered Che.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I haven't seen the attitude the blogger talked about in a really long time.There was one instance where someone derided me for asking a basic question back when I first joined but since than I have seen very little of the "I've been studying it for longer than you" mentality.

Also...

Thread moved to Non-Political.

[Yuppie Grinder]

That guy's blog has been discussed here 7 or 8 months ago, As I remember he was agonizing over whether to join the ISO, SocAlt, or some other group. I think he spent way too much time agonizing.

As far as his criticisms of this forum goes, he's partly right but so what? Its an internet forum, not a political organization. RevLeft is accessible to the general public, to anyone who claims to be a leftist. You get a wide variety of levels of leftist education here, from people who are struggling with a comment in the Grundrisse and Marx's concept of land rent to someone who just discovered Che.

It matters because discussion here is mostly awful but it doesn't have to be that way.


I haven't seen the attitude the blogger talked about in a really long time.There was one instance where someone derided me for asking a basic question back when I first joined but since than I have seen very little of the "I've been studying it for longer than you" mentality.

Also...

Thread moved to Non-Political.

I see it everywhere, including in many of my own posts. I think it's just subtle and unintentional. It's a way of thinking, not so much an argument people use in debate.

[Prometeo liberado]

Now I remember this guy! This article was posted some time ago. It's pretty much harmless and yes this is just an internet forum, though unlike Kassama project, it doesn't take itself to serious. Certain places for certain things I guess.

[ArrowLance]

What would a trotskyist know about forums, I've been using forums for years!

[Zealot]

That's true. I'd be lying if I said I didn't find it amusing whenever someone who has passionately identified themselves as a hardline, anti-revisionist Marxist-Lenninist-Maoist-Avakianist-MaoistRebelNewsist for a few months asks what the basics of Marx And Engels' thought are.
The point is that instead of replying to this with snobbery we should find a constructive and informative way of discussing so we can actually have some conversations that don't turn into bickering.

Don't start making fun of Maoist Rebel Newsism. Thanks.

Also, I don't actually see this happen very much on Revleft or maybe I simply don't notice it. There is a lot of trolling and dodging of actual arguments though, brushing them off as unworthy. Maybe that's the same thing? I don't know. :) It sounds a little different to this so-called meritocracy.

[The Young Pioneer]

I don't think Revleft is any better or worse than any other forum online for this sort of thing.

Though I will say, one of my very first posts was a question in the learning section and everyone chided me into feeling like a proper idiot there. Notice, if you will, I joined last summer but did not continue actively posting after that until winter began. Had to lurk and observe to understand how things operate here. But I agree, at least towards newbies and genuine questions that seem to have decent intentions (i.e., not trolls), we should behave like civilised people, if we can.

[Lobotomy]

yes, I've noticed that revleft culture can be kind of hostile. Like a few months ago when Bostana posted that "how do you tell if a nation is communist" thread and everyone was unhelpful like "OH THIS FUGGIN GUY DOESN'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT COMMUNISM LOL." I mean granted it was an extremely elementary question and on false pretenses but come the fuck on. we live in a society in which the ruling class actively discourages people from understanding communism, of course people are going to ask questions like that.

[Fawkes]

I think this has far less to do with theoretical knowledge and far more to do with organizational experience. People usually adopt this attitude in response to someone saying something like "what we need is someone to just throw a molotov at the cops during the next occupy march", in which case I think responding by using ones experience in activism to validate their argument as to why we're not at a point where throwing molotov cocktails at cops is productive is a very legitimate thing to do.

[piet11111]

I adjust my attitude according to the forum section i am on.

To me it makes sense to be more elaborate in learning about the how and why of my opinion and explain things as much as possible while in politics i would just keep the explanations to a minimum.

As far as i am concerned the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked so if i can be helpful towards someone else who genuinely wants to learn something i would be happy to help.

[homegrown terror]

i've also noticed in my short time here that a lot of contributors are hostile towards those who don't subscribe to one single theory or philosopher's work. i myself take influences from a variety of sources, and draw my own conclusions, but i've seen a lot of times that people who think that way are trodden down by those posters who treat the words of marx, lenin etc as gospel (which is something we all claim to deride when it's done by the opposition)