Log in

View Full Version : I prefer Keynesian Economics over Trickle Down Economics but can anyone explain ?



tradeunionsupporter
18th May 2012, 01:29
I prefer Keynesian Economics over Trickle Down Economics but can anyone explain Keynesian Economics's views of how to promote economic growth in the private sector I know Keynesian Economics supports Government Spending but Government Spending on what ? Public Works Projects ? Infrastructure Spending ? I know this is not a Keynesian forum but Keynesian Economics should work better then Trickle Down Economics in my view. Doesn't Keynesian Economics support Consumer Spending to help the Economy ? I hear Keynesians say we need Government Spending to put money in the pockets of the people who then will spend the money this they say will help promote Consumer Spending which will help create Jobs how do Keynesians plan to pocket money in people's pockets is it by giving the people Jobs rebuiliding or building Infrastructure ?

John Maynard Keynes
The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money
Book III
The Propensity to Consume

Chapter 10. The Marginal Propensity to Consume and the Multiplier



V

We have seen above that the greater the marginal propensity to consume, the greater the multiplier, and hence the greater the disturbance to employment corresponding to a given change in investment. This might seem to lead to the paradoxical conclusion that a poor community in which saving is a very small proportion of income will be more subject to violent fluctuations than a wealthy community where saving is a larger proportion of income and the multiplier consequently smaller.
This conclusion, however, would overlook the distinction between the effects of the marginal propensity to consume and those of the average propensity to consume. For whilst a high marginal propensity to consume involves a larger proportionate effect from given percentage change in investment, the absolute effect will, nevertheless, be small if the average propensity to consume is also high. This may be illustrated as follows by a numerical example.
Let us suppose that a community’s propensity to consume is such that, so long as its real income does not exceed the output from employing 5,000,000 men on its existing capital equipment, it consumes the whole of its income; that of the output of the next 100,000 additional men employed it consumes 99 per cent., of the next 100,000 after that 98 per cent., of the third 100,000 97 per cent. and so on; and that 10,000,000 men employed represents full employment. It follows from this that, when 5,000,000 + n x 100,000 men are employed, the multiplier at the margin is 100/n, and n(n + 1)/2.(50 + n) per cent. of the national income is invested.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/general-theory/ch10.htm

Infrastructure Spending Builds American Jobs

Public Investments Help Private Businesses Create Jobs


By Kristina Costa (http://www.americanprogress.org/aboutus/staff/CostaKristina.html), Adam Hersh (http://www.americanprogress.org/experts/HershAdam.html) | September 8, 2011

Jobs induced by direct and indirect hires when they make consumer purchases with their paychecks

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/09/jobs_infrastructure.html

Infrastructure Spending Stimulates the Entire Economy

Pat O'Malley (http://contributor.yahoo.com/user/933068/pat_omalley.html), Yahoo! Contributor Network (https://contributor.yahoo.com/)
Jun 29, 2011 "Share your voice on Yahoo! websites. Start Here (https://contributor.yahoo.com/join/voicesarticlebyline)."

The Keynesian economic theory is one of the few classic economic principles that is based in reality. It maintains that government should increase spending during a recession. It should buy more of the things that government normally buys.
Those things are new and repaired roads, bridges, dams, harbors, levees, tunnels, buildings, schools, parking garages, subways, railways, parks, sewers, stadiums, airports, and other public facilities. That spending creates jobs for construction companies and workers. Those projects create demand for the supplies, equipment, tools, and other materials that they need for those projects. It creates demand for the trucking companies to ship them and the warehouses to store them. That creates jobs in all of those industries. If the companies supplying the construction industry have enough work, they can spend some of their revenue to hire more employees or to upgrade their own facilities. See, more demand, more jobs.

Then all of those workers have paychecks that they can spend on groceries, clothing, furniture, cars, houses, utilities, entertainment, appliances, restaurants, vacations, and all sorts of things. That creates demand in those industries. And that creates jobs. If those companies have enough work, they can spend some of their revenue to hire more employees or to upgrade their own facilities. See, more demand, more jobs. And government gets its new stuff built and its old stuff fixed. See. Everybody wins.

http://voices.yahoo.com/infrastructure-spending-stimulates-8723969.html?cat=55

the end of the 80s, it had become clear that the rich were not investing their liberated tax dollars on "good" forms of investment, like jobs and productive tools and technology. Instead, the money went towards consumption, the good life, and economically meaningless investments like antiques and sport cars. The lack of investment in the national interest became so obvious that Democrats in congress actually proposed guidelines to encourage it. During the 1992 campaign, Bill Clinton proposed a massive infusion of public investment into the nation's aging infrastructure to compensate for the failure of the private sector to do so.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-capgainsspur.htm

To get the circular flow of money started again, Keynes suggested that the central bank -- in the U.S., the Federal Reserve System -- should expand the money supply. This would put more money in people's hands, inspire consumer confidence, and compel them to start spending again.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Causes.htm#keynesianism

The cure for this, Keynes said, was for the central bank to expand the money supply. By putting more bills in people's hands, consumer confidence would return, people would spend, and the circular flow of money would be reestablished. Just that simple! Too simple, in fact, for the policy-makers of that time.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Keynesianism.htm

What is Trickle Down Economics?


The major problem with this economic theory (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-economic-theory.htm) is that it doesn't work as effectively as its proponents suggest. A few economists may still cling to the trickle down economics theory, but many more agree that, in fact, trickle down economics hurts the lower classes, and it hurts the government.

By reducing the tax burden for the wealthiest individual, the government cheats itself out of a very profitable wedge of tax revenue (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tax-revenue.htm), meaning that this revenue cannot be invested directly in the citizens of the nation. Without that revenue, the government may go into debt to pay for basic services, thereby creating a serious problem for future generations.

The issue with trickle down economics is that it relies on actions by individuals which will benefit a whole, and most individuals are not that altruistic. In fact, many wealthy individuals and corporations are understandably interested in protecting their wealth, and when their taxes are cut, they may choose not to reinvest that money, meaning that no funds “trickle down” to people in lower socioeconomic classes. The tax burden on the middle class may also increase as the government struggles to keep tax revenues high enough to fund itself.

Trickle down economics tends to be promoted by conservative politicians who would like to see less government. However, moderates and conservatives have suggested that theories like trickle down economics are ultimately a disservice to the government and the citizens.

By collecting reasonable tax revenues, a government can provide the benefits which are supposedly offered by trickle down economics, as demonstrated under politicians like President Roosevelt, who invested heavily in American infrastructure with government funds in the 1930s to foster recovery from the Great Depression (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-great-depression.htm).

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-trickle-down-economics.htm

tradeunionsupporter
18th May 2012, 04:58
Thank you for your posts.

Leftsolidarity
18th May 2012, 05:14
No expert but it's just a way of the bourgeoisie to save their failing system during their times of crisis. As we know, capitalism cannot exist without the state and sometimes they need their state to step in and fix the problems that naturally come from the "anarchy of production" in the capitalist system.

It's not really a thing of "working better". It's more of a tool to implement at certain times of capitalist crisis.

It doesn't really help the working class in any meaningful way except maybe an increase in welfare or employment.

Workers-Control-Over-Prod
18th May 2012, 05:41
Keynesian economics is a way to try to sooth the class antagonisms and internal contradictions of capitalism by having large government spending. Friedrich Engels foretold this kind of a state-subsidised stage of capitalism, in the east it was called "STAMOKAP" State Monopoloist Capitalism.

eric922
20th May 2012, 19:13
Keynesian economics is a way to try to sooth the class antagonisms and internal contradictions of capitalism by having large government spending. Friedrich Engels foretold this kind of a state-subsidised stage of capitalism, in the east it was called "STAMOKAP" State Monopoloist Capitalism.
Do you know which work this prediction is in? I would like to read it. Thanks.

MarxSchmarx
22nd May 2012, 05:17
OP, keynesian economics as a method of resuscitating capitalism is based on the idea of a multiplier effect. If someone who has no money suddenly has money due to government infusion, they will spend it to buy necessities. The captialists supplying the necessities will see someone is willing to spend money so they will hire workers or make purchases to make sure they can sell it. This will put money in other people's pockets, whom other capitalists will try to target, and so on. This is a simplified version, but in this way, a flagging capitalist economy can be resuscitated.

tradeunionsupporter
3rd June 2012, 18:13
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1W1ADFA_enUS475&q=keynesian+economics&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=BZvLT-S6MIbi0QHBtPSRAQ&ved=0CGIQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=38adfc16dc94dc64&biw=1440&bih=637

Crux
4th June 2012, 11:54
Keynesianism is the plaster of the well-meaning bourgeousie on the slit artery of capitalism. Revolutionaries don't oppose reforms, but keynesianism only "works" in an economic upturn, even if it would manage to soften the blow of a crisis: capitalism is in perpetual crisises, it's built that way.

wsg1991
4th June 2012, 13:00
it's funny how Keynesian economics only remembered when capitalism is weakened . it's more like a way to prevent a population from revolting and keep the capitalist system

i am positive toward Keynesian economics in most time except in capitalist system crisis

durhamleft
7th June 2012, 22:48
I'm a Keynesian, so ask away.

Basically what I'd argue is this:

(a) The market system is the most efficient way of distributing resources (state planning ala socialist states simply cannot do the job of the free market).
(b) However capitalism is not perfect, markets are irrational and economies grow in booms and busts
(c) At times of slow economic growth (eg. 2008-->) You need to have a government stimulus in order to boost the economy.
(d) This is because during slumps you get excess capacity in the economy eg. empty factories, so it is possible for governments to boost spending without putting upwards pressure of inflation.
(e) As the government spends money, it will end up in the hands of citizens, eg those who build the roads.
(f) They will then go on to spend the money in shops so you end up with the "multiplier" which is the idea that £1 spent by the government will circulate round the economy and potentially boost the economy by a disproportionately high amount.

However, true Keynesianism is not what was pursued in the 1960s in my opinion, which was every time unemployment increased by 20,000 the government would suddenly spend shit loads.

Keynesian stimulus' should be reserved for times like 2008, when there is an absolute market crash.

I've briefly explained it in simple terms, but can talk in much greater detail if you have any specific questions about it.

Lynx
8th June 2012, 17:32
Well if you want Keynesianism you'll have to fight for it. Mainstream economics and the political elite are lined up behind supply side policies and austerity. There's not enough pressure from below to change course towards another 'new deal'.

Who is Paul Krugman?

Dean
8th June 2012, 17:53
Keynesian Economics introduces concepts which tie together various social economic forces - (such as aggregate demand, propensity to consume, employment and investment) and changes in those forces.

One example of Keynesian economics is the aggregate demand upper limit of economic activity. No matter what you make, if there are not funds in the hands of people who want to purchase the items, you cannot have an expanding economy (or a positive GDP growth rate). This is a simplified version of the idea but it conveys some of the key points.

It's a more social view of economics, but with an explicitly capitalist framework. It has some valuable concepts, even to Marxist analyses, but so do some of the more militant anti-leftist, centrist groups like the Austrian and Monetarist groups. As a side note, the monetarists (Milton Friedman) used Keynesianism to promote a privatization system, while Keynesianism generally relies on a state apparatus for its cost-benefit analyses.

I think MMT (Modern Monetary Theory) aka Chartalism is a more rational view of monetary and economic relations and cost-benefit analysis of state economic policy. Unlike the others, it refers to money as a truly fiat system of accounting for value, rather than a value commodity tied to fixed materials. I think this framework is valuable for a socialist system, but a communist state of things - if it can be achieved - should surpass these concerns.

durhamleft
8th June 2012, 23:55
Well if you want Keynesianism you'll have to fight for it. Mainstream economics and the political elite are lined up behind supply side policies and austerity. There's not enough pressure from below to change course towards another 'new deal'.

Who is Paul Krugman?

A Keynesian economist.

Quite outspoken in the UK on issues such as the Eurozone crisis and austerity.

tradeunionsupporter
11th June 2012, 00:22
I got this email from Robert Reich about John Maynard Keynes can anyone help explain his answer and or post where in his book he talks about this thank you for answering ?

He didn’t use the word “infrastructure,” which came into general usage
long after the 1930s, but he wrote at length about the importance of
government public-works projects when consumers and businesses failed to
spend or invest enough to maintain adequate demand. You should read his
famous “General Theory…” from 1936 (I believe that was the year).



Thanks for writing.

Hello Mr. Reich my question is does infrastructure spending have anything
to do with keynesianism ? I have looked at the general theory of
employment interest and money by John Maynard Keynes but I can't find
anything about infrastructure do you know if he spoke about this ? Correct
me if im wrong but doesn't Keynes say Government Spending puts money in
the pockets of the Consumers and they spend money in the Private Sector
which will create demand which will create Jobs thank you ?