Postgenderism

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Apologies if in the wrong thread, just find this issue interesting and potentially relevant to the idea of a stateless society or at least of a more equal society.

Postgenderism is a diverse social, political and cultural movement whose adherents affirm the voluntary elimination of gender in the human species through the application of advanced biotechnology and assistive reproduction technologies.
Advocates of postgenderism argue that the presence of gender roles, social stratification, and cogno-physical disparites and divisions are generally to the detriment of individuals and society. Given the radical potential for advanced assistive reproductive options, postgenderists believe that sex for reproducive purposes will either become obsolete, or that all post-gendered humans will have the ability, if they so choose, to both carry a pregnancy to term and father a child, which, postgenderists believe, would have the effect of eliminating the need for definite genders in such a society.

(More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postgenderism)

[Luís Henrique]

Apologies if in the wrong thread, just find this issue interesting and potentially relevant to the idea of a stateless society or at least of a more equal society.

Postgenderism is a diverse social, political and cultural movement whose adherents affirm the voluntary elimination of gender in the human species through the application of advanced biotechnology and assistive reproduction technologies.
Advocates of postgenderism argue that the presence of gender roles, social stratification, and cogno-physical disparites and divisions are generally to the detriment of individuals and society. Given the radical potential for advanced assistive reproductive options, postgenderists believe that sex for reproducive purposes will either become obsolete, or that all post-gendered humans will have the ability, if they so choose, to both carry a pregnancy to term and father a child, which, postgenderists believe, would have the effect of eliminating the need for definite genders in such a society.

(More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postgenderism)

Simply put, if I can no longer be a male and consensually fuck with females of my choice, I want no part of their revolution.

They evidently mistake 'gender' for 'sex'.

Luís Henrique

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Simply put, if I can no longer be a male and consensually fuck with females of my choice, I want no part of their revolution.

They evidently mistake 'gender' for 'sex'.

Luís Henrique

Excellent point

[Hit The North]

Also, it is radical social change that is required to eliminate gender inequalities, not biological transformation.

[The Young Pioneer]

...Yeah.

I'm all for gender equality, just, like, not if it's gonna be all medically Brave New Worldish. What the fuck. I like my vagina and don't want to "father" anyone.

[Valdyr]

They bring up some interesting points, but I think their approach is flawed in that they adopt several bourgeois/essentialist assumptions.

I have no problem with a world where people have the option to modify their bodies, or reproduce without being physically pregnant. In fact, I think the last thing is crucial for us to develop. However, the postgenderists seem to underestimate the role of the social in the notion of gender. They locate differences mostly in the physical, and seek to (in a "brave new world" way as Young Pioneer said) then just seek to change the physical on the existing social terms.

Whatever abilities to radically alter our biological reproductive and sexual aspects do emerge, I think we first need a social revolution, and that the latter is of primary importance. In other words, overthrowing capitalism with some minor technological advances will do a lot more good than sci-fi advances without radical social change.

[Tenka]

I for one think we should literally grow babies in massive factories and do away with sexual dimorphism completely. I hold my sectarian ideals alongside my still-immature Marxist socialism and try not to conflate them.

[Robespierres Neck]

Strange.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I for one think we should literally grow babies in massive factories and do away with sexual dimorphism completely. I hold my sectarian ideals alongside my still-immature Marxist socialism and try not to conflate them.

Wut?

[Tenka]

Wut?

I'm stating my belief that the entire process of reproduction should be artificial and non-sexual. Clear? Or were you hung up on something else?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I'm stating my belief that the entire process of reproduction should be artificial and non-sexual. Clear? Or were you hung up on something else?

I still find growing babies in a factory a rather strange idea.
How would you make this possible in the first place?

[Tenka]

I still find growing babies in a factory a rather strange idea.
How would you make this possible in the first place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus - It's all theoretical, but it doesn't seem far-fetched to me. There could be tons of them in automated factories, with artificial gene variation from the pool of donated material to emulate natural differences in appearance (so people won't all look the same).
Call me a dreamer, if you will, but there's no denying that the relegation of childbirth to female persons in itself foments a certain degree of inequality; and I can think of no better potentially possible ways for the situation to be rectified.

[Luís Henrique]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus - It's all theoretical, but it doesn't seem far-fetched to me. There could be tons of them in automated factories, with artificial gene variation from the pool of donated material to emulate natural differences in appearance (so people won't all look the same).
Call me a dreamer, if you will, but there's no denying that the relegation of childbirth to female persons in itself foments a certain degree of inequality; and I can think of no better potentially possible ways for the situation to be rectified.

What bourgeois would be stupid enough to waste capital in such an unsaleable commodity?

... it would require a socialist revolution, anyway. Either that, or the reinstatement of slavery.

Luís Henrique

[Kenco Smooth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus - It's all theoretical, but it doesn't seem far-fetched to me. There could be tons of them in automated factories, with artificial gene variation from the pool of donated material to emulate natural differences in appearance (so people won't all look the same).
Call me a dreamer, if you will, but there's no denying that the relegation of childbirth to female persons in itself foments a certain degree of inequality; and I can think of no better potentially possible ways for the situation to be rectified.

How does variation in genetic code not lead to inequality in the sense you're using it? Surely a universally identical genotype would be necessary to prevent variance in ability?

How's about this for a suitable alternative. Allow for proper nutritional and health advice along with the appropriate means of reasonably attaining these and suitable measures in place to prevent cases of gross harm? But hey I suppose that women can't possibly be trusted to adequately care for a fetus in all cases so we really shouldn't take the risk of letting them.

[Veovis]

I still find growing babies in a factory a rather strange idea.
How would you make this possible in the first place?

Bene Tleilax axlotl tanks.

[Tenka]

How does variation in genetic code not lead to inequality in the sense you're using it? Surely a universally identical genotype would be necessary to prevent variance in ability?


No, the genes could be modified to allow for variance in appearance without any variance in ability. Or so I reckon....

Luís Henrique:

What bourgeois would be stupid enough to waste capital in such an unsaleable commodity?

... it would require a socialist revolution, anyway. Either that, or the reinstatement of slavery.

Of course.:(

[Lanky Wanker]

It's actually pathetic how anti-something and post-everything some people are. How about we focus more on important stuff like what colour flowers I should decorate my kitchen with?

[The Douche]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus - It's all theoretical, but it doesn't seem far-fetched to me. There could be tons of them in automated factories, with artificial gene variation from the pool of donated material to emulate natural differences in appearance (so people won't all look the same).
Call me a dreamer, if you will, but there's no denying that the relegation of childbirth to female persons in itself foments a certain degree of inequality; and I can think of no better potentially possible ways for the situation to be rectified.

Shit like this makes me feel at home with the primitivists.

[ForgedConscience]

Tenka, you should read A Brave New World or something.

Besides, just because we want the liberation of man we shouldn't be so arrogant as to think that we can transcend our limitations of being a living organism by eliminating an element which is as much a part of being human as the urge to be free. Don't you think we can be free through the use of logic? Just because I'm getting someone pregnant or finding one particular gender attractive doesn't = "This person is an object in my eyes, they are inherently inferior, [bullshit sexist nonsense]".

So therefore not only is it undesirable to have such a system of 'manufacturing' humans, but it isn't even necessary for us to do so in order to be equal. As I believe that more-provocateur-than-philosopher Zizek said, you tend to love your partner for their imperfections. We should also love humanity for it's imperfections (I sound like a bit of a hippy now). And honestly I don't even like Zizek, though I do see truth in that particular statement.


Shit like this makes me feel at home with the primitivists.

I know...

[Valdyr]

Wow, I'm surprised at all the "sanctity of humanity" type stuff appearing in this thread concerning "baby factories," even though I half agree. I'm also skeptical of the genetic engineering component as being "brave new world-ish," but the part about growing babies in an artificial uterus (perhaps with original genetic material to sidestep the genetic issue) seems like a good option to have, provided it is available under socialism rather than the stratification that would emerge under capitalism. Imagine how liberating it would be for women to have the option to not have to deal with a pregnancy to have a child.

[The Douche]

Wow, I'm surprised at all the "sanctity of humanity" type stuff appearing in this thread concerning "baby factories," even though I half agree. I'm also skeptical of the genetic engineering component as being "brave new world-ish," but the part about growing babies in an artificial uterus (perhaps with original genetic material to sidestep the genetic issue) seems like a good option to have, provided it is available under socialism rather than the stratification that would emerge under capitalism. Imagine how liberating it would be for women to have the option to not have to deal with a pregnancy to have a child.

The stripping away of what makes us human is what makes me uncomfortable. The bond that is created between mother and child during the pregnancy is, to me, something that is just absolutely amazing, and it saddens me that I could never experience that.

[Valdyr]

The stripping away of what makes us human is what makes me uncomfortable.

How is forcing women to continue to be pregnant what makes us human?


The bond that is created between mother and child during the pregnancy is, to me, something that is just absolutely amazing, and it saddens me that I could never experience that.

So don't use that option. It wouldn't be a requirement by any means, that would be fascistic.

[The Douche]

How is forcing women to continue to be pregnant what makes us human?

Nobody has to get pregnant though?


So don't use that option. It wouldn't be a requirement by any means, that would be fascistic.

It doesn't mean I have to be ok with it though, it can still offend my views.