Log in

View Full Version : what was the left's opinion of the Jewish insurgency pre-Israel?



Os Cangaceiros
15th May 2012, 22:29
I'd be interested to know. Was it looked at as a legitimate struggle for national liberation, or...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Conflict_with_Zionism

Koba Junior
15th May 2012, 22:32
My understanding is that Stalin saw the creation of a specifically Jewish homeland as a good thing, at least originally. I think he suspected that it would become a leftist, progressive state. This is an example of those times during which a Stalinist makes an ideological break from Stalin himself.

Offbeat
15th May 2012, 22:36
Zionism is a racist, nationalist ideology which is incompatible with leftism.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol
15th May 2012, 22:37
My understanding is that Stalin saw the creation of a specifically Jewish homeland as a good thing, at least originally. I think he suspected that it would become a leftist, progressive state. This is an example of those times during which a Stalinist makes an ideological break from Stalin himself.

Well, I can kind of understand why the jews would want a state for themselves after being chased out of every place they lived for years( even before ww2) However that is no excuse for what they did and still do now to the people that lived there.
Also I don't think it was absolutely out of the question that it could've turned into a leftist state.

Edit: This of course doesn't mean I support Israel or Zionism

TheGodlessUtopian
15th May 2012, 22:39
Was not a national liberationists struggle... not unless you mean for the modern day Palestinians.

At any rate, no, do not support it.

The Idler
15th May 2012, 22:39
Is there some "right of nations to self-determination" which Socialists should support? This was a question debated by Social Democrats before the first world war, especially in Russia and Austria which were then both multi-national empires. Lenin, true to his opportunist view that any slogan was useful if it helped "mobilise the masses", answered yes. Among those who answered no was Rosa Luxemburg.
That this was so has long been known to us, but until the recent publication of a selection of her writings on The National Question (edited by Horace B. Davis, Monthly Review Press, 320pp., £9.25), we have not had the opportunity to judge the worth of the arguments she used. That her writings on this question—as opposed to those on economics and other matters—should have remained unavailable for so long is no accident. Left-wing publishers have just not been interested in publishing a criticism of what has become a dogma in left-wing circles: that Socialists are duty-bound to support struggles for "national liberation".

Luxemburg and the National Question – World Socialist Movement (http://www.worldsocialism.org/articles/luxemburg_and_the_national.php)

Os Cangaceiros
15th May 2012, 22:53
I'm not interested in people's opinions on the state of Israel, or even Zionism. This is merely a historical question. (see thread title)

Hit The North
15th May 2012, 22:58
I'd be interested to know. Was it looked at as a legitimate struggle for national liberation, or...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Conflict_with_Zionism

One prominent Marxist who had close proximity with this struggle was Ygael Gluckstein AKA Tony Cliff, who worked to create Jewish-Arab workers organisations before fleeing from Zionism in 1946. If you can be bothered to read his articles you can find them here (http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/index.htm).

bad ideas actualised by alcohol
15th May 2012, 23:05
You can probably find something here:
http://www.marxists.org/subject/jewish/index.htm

Sixiang
16th May 2012, 02:21
My understanding is that Stalin saw the creation of a specifically Jewish homeland as a good thing, at least originally. I think he suspected that it would become a leftist, progressive state. This is an example of those times during which a Stalinist makes an ideological break from Stalin himself.

Wasn't a Jewish autonomous region set up in the Soviet Union under Stalin's leadership in Oblast?

Sasha
16th May 2012, 10:44
Because back then the zionist-labour movement/kibutszem movement was still dominantly secular and leftist there was widespread support in the european radical left. Also do not forget that it was more viewed as an rebellion to liberate palestine from the British colonists than create Israel at the costs of the.Arab population. The u.k. holds also a lot of historic blame for the mess now as they consciously pitted the Arabs against the Jews and visa versa as they hoped that civilwar would strengthen their grip and replace the anti British insurgency.

Stalin's support (not a leftist anyway) was purely anti-british geo political opportunism, and he probably hoped he could get rid of his own Jewish population in the process being the anti-semite that he was.

Veovis
17th May 2012, 09:57
Wasn't a Jewish autonomous region set up in the Soviet Union under Stalin's leadership in Oblast?

It's still there, except not that many Jews live there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast