appearance/subculture based discrimination

[homegrown terror]

i'm speaking primarily of those who belong to a subculture that has a style of dress which is contrary to the societal norm (punk, metal, hip-hop, hippie etc.) do you believe they have the right to be treated fairly despite the way they look, or are they "just asking for it"?

[El Oso Rojo]

Yes, they should but hip pop is a societal norm. Nowadays

[Crux]

I think you are asking for it. Of course they should be treated fairly. What exactly do you want to discuss?

[NewLeft]

It's only a problem if you're going to a job interview..

[Railyon]

I thought it was the raison detre of punk to "ask for it", if you will.

[The Douche]

Man, people who compare being picked on for their clothes to the discrimination endured by oppressed groups, really fucking disgust me.

[dodger]

Punk +2yrs= Paris Catwalk :laugh:

[Valdyr]

Obviously they should be treated fairly.

Also, I obviously wouldn't say that the difficulties subculturally identified individuals face is anything like the systematic oppression endured by people of color, by women, by LGBT people, etc., but it is not totally inconsequential either. Subcultural identification does have negative effects in class society.

[Althusser]

Sure people have the right to dress how they want, but I have the right to tell them they look ridiculous and attention seeking. Discrimination against race or sex is too important for us to be squabbling about discrimination against vampire people.

If I walked around with a dildo hat, I wouldn't cry when people stare and laugh. Also, how could that type of discrimination even be combatted?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aerG4c6QpTA

[Raúl Duke]

Ehhh
I don't have much of an opinion...

Although I dislike Jugallos

[Valdyr]

Ehhh
I don't have much of an opinion...

Although I dislike Jugallos

Reactionary lumpen? :tt2:

[Leftsolidarity]

I choose the first one. This is a stupid question.

I expect to be "discriminated" against because I dress the way I do but that doesn't mean it's acceptable to me.

[Railyon]

I sometimes feel like I'm being discriminated against by other leftists because I don't dress in black. :ninja:

[homegrown terror]

just to clarify, i meant this thread to be about REAL discrimination (i.e. cops singling you out, using your appearance as probable cause etc) and not petty little "point and stare, make rude comments" type actions.

[Nox]

i'm speaking primarily of those who belong to a subculture that has a style of dress which is contrary to the societal norm (punk, metal, hip-hop, hippie etc.) do you believe they have the right to be treated fairly despite the way they look, or are they "just asking for it"?

Are women who dress a certain way "just asking for it"? (it meaning rape)

[ВАЛТЕР]

You're going to get made fun of for one thing or another eventually in life. That is part of growing up. It isn't some horrific form of discrimination that can't be dealt with. Not everything is a big enough deal to cry over. Shut up, wear what you want, and don't be shocked if you get made fun of because it happens to everyone eventually no matter how you dress or act. Grow up and deal with it.

[Zealot]

I think that subcultures and eccentric dressers have defined themselves by stepping out of the norm and, furthermore, they want people to see that. If no one looked at them strangely or just thought it was normal, then I would venture to guess that the dress and/or subculture would become useless to them. It may be ironic but I think subcultures thrive on discrimination/judgmental perceptions of them and that is its very lifeline because of what I've described above.

This should be obvious.

I'd rather fight for groups that are actually oppressed than for a few teens that think dressing like Dracula is a good idea.

[Fawkes]

While I largely agree with cmoney and others in this thread, it's important to note that abuse towards members of a given subculture is very often driven by homophobia, sexism, and racism. Much of the derision toward hip-hop culture is riddled with racism, just like calling an emo kid a "pussy" is an expression of homophobia and sexism.

[NewLeft]

While I largely agree with cmoney and others in this thread, it's important to note that abuse towards members of a given subculture is very often driven by homophobia, sexism, and racism. Much of the derision toward hip-hop culture is riddled with racism, just like calling an emo kid a "pussy" is an expression of homophobia and sexism.
This is by choice, a person facing racism/homophobia..etc. doesn't have this option.

[Revolution starts with U]

This is by choice, a person facing racism/homophobia..etc. doesn't have this option.

That makes it more acceptable?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

This is by choice, a person facing racism/homophobia..etc. doesn't have this option.

Augh - choice is such a bullshit bourgeois construction. It's not about the "choice" of an individual to dress a certain way, it's about the relationship between culture and techniques of control and classification. Further, said techniques are closely bound up with forms of domination like sexism, racism, etc. What's further disturbing about this thread is that it is ignoring the intersection between culture and marginalized identity - like, it's not as though punx, hippies, or kids who dress "hip hop" are all straight-white-males. That would make this all very convenient to dismiss, but it's not like that irl.

AUGH.

[LeftCoastComrade]

You should be able to wear whatever you want. Where I live the cops harass you if you dress hip-hop type clothes, especially if you have red or blue on. Last time I wore red and went out I got pulled over, harassed by the police, and got arressed for drunk in public. I hardly even walk anywhere on my side of town.

[gozai]

You should't be allowed to walk around naked at the street, the minimum should be to cover the genitials and ass.

[Yazman]

Man, people who compare being picked on for their clothes to the discrimination endured by oppressed groups, really fucking disgust me.

I can't see where the topic creator has done this. Just TALKING about this sort of discrimination isn't comparing it to racism, sexism or whatever.

[Ned Kelly]

People should loosen up, if someone says the way you dress is stupid just laugh, it doesn't matter, laugh at them for thinking they are the kings of fashion or some shit

[W1N5T0N]

You should be able to express and dress yourself in any way you want. Dyed hair, facial tattoos, strange clothes,

you only have 1 life. why conform?

[Niall]

its discrimination and any form of discrimination shouldnt be tolerated. I chose option2

[Sasha]

I have a weird haircut and visible tats and piercings, yet i never get "discriminated" against other than if I would aply for a job I wouldn't want to begin with, the people i know that have trouble getting accepted in society I believe have their poor people skills and often very poor personal hygiene to blame not any subcultural distinctive features they might have.
It's just easier to say that the abstract punk is the problem, not that "dude, you stink, go get a shower"

[fabian]

I've been a part of firstly metalhead and then skinhead subculture (actually, just shaving my hair, not changeing the dress style, I was never into leather or metal accessories) as a little younger, and I still listen, for over a decade, both extreme metal, like thrash, speed and death, and ska and skinhead reggae, and although I still look like a hooligan because of the working out, semi-sportwear, and the buzz cut or an occasional head shave, I don't wear dr. martens, black army pants, spitfire, or band shirts. IMO, people who continue with being a part of some subculture past 20 and something years need to grow up.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I have a weird haircut and visible tats and piercings, yet i never get "discriminated" against other than if I would aply for a job I wouldn't want to begin with, the people i know that have trouble getting accepted in society I believe have their poor people skills and often very poor personal hygiene to blame not any subcultural distinctive features they might have.
It's just easier to say that the abstract punk is the problem, not that "dude, you stink, go get a shower"

"I'm a hipster-yuppie, and I never get discriminated against, so, really, the problem must be that other people stink and are stupid."

STFU, poser.

[Leftsolidarity]

IMO, people who continue with being a part of some subculture past 20 and something years need to grow up.

Yeah! Go conform to society you damn losers! Don't you know that you need to stop being who you are once you get past 20? You are so childish that you are part of a subculture!

:rolleyes:

On top of anti-sexualism we got more conservative stances out of you. I'm watching you Mr. Fabian. I'm watching you....


"I'm a hipster-yuppie, and I never get discriminated against, so, really, the problem must be that other people stink and are stupid."

STFU, poser.

Pretty sure that's not what he said at all. He's correct in saying that jobs don't want to hire you if you're stinky right? Yes. They don't like to hire people with bad social skills right? Yes.

He's saying (if I misinterpert this Psycho feel free to call me out on being wrong) that it's not because they are a punk that they don't get a job or something like that. It is because they smell and have bad social skills.

This is coming from a punk btw.

I clean up for work. It sucks but I got a job.

[OHumanista]

Some of the answers in this thread are disgusting, though very typical of the people who posted them.:rolleyes:

[fabian]

Yeah! Go conform to society you damn losers! Don't you know that you need to stop being who you are once you get past 20? You are so childish that you are part of a subculture!
More like- want to be a non-conformist? Be a non conformist by life choices and personality, not by clothing. There ain't no bigger non-conformists then ultra-orthodox jews, and they're all uniformed.

[Ocean Seal]

i'm speaking primarily of those who belong to a subculture that has a style of dress which is contrary to the societal norm (punk, metal, hip-hop, hippie etc.) do you believe they have the right to be treated fairly despite the way they look, or are they "just asking for it"?
No one is "asking for it" with the exception of fascists and the bourgeoisie.

[honest john's firing squad]

You should't be allowed to walk around naked at the street
The abolition of any and all articles of clothing is number one on my list of revolutionary demands.

[Leftsolidarity]

More like- want to be a non-conformist? Be a non conformist by life choices and personality, not by clothing. There ain't no bigger non-conformists then ultra-orthodox jews, and they're all uniformed.

Thank you, Mr. Condescending God Of Non-Conformity.

Maybe people choose to dress the way they do because that's what they like, not just to be "non-conformists". I can't believe how much of a conservative asshole you sound like. How did I not notice you before a few days ago?

Also, a subculture is not just a subculture because they dress differently. They have different lifestyles, music, values, etc. The clothes they wear are usually just a reflection of that.

I wear a jacket with patches all over it because it reflects my music/politics and because I like the way it looks. I don't wear it simply because not many other people wear it.

The idea that the goal of subcultures is to be "non-conformists" for simply the sake of being non-conformists is dumb.

[fabian]

I wear a jacket with patches all over it because it reflects my music/politics and because I like the way it looks.
Do you stop listening to that music or stop upholding those political views if you stop wearing those patches? I'm curently listening to Paradox which is the music of my teen year, and so many years I still love the music, and I don't need people reading it from my shirt or jacket.


They have different lifestyles, music, values, etc. The clothes they wear are usually just a reflection of that.
Why the need to reflect it by outward appearance, and sharing it with people who didn't ask about it.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

While I largely agree with cmoney and others in this thread, it's important to note that abuse towards members of a given subculture is very often driven by homophobia, sexism, and racism. Much of the derision toward hip-hop culture is riddled with racism, just like calling an emo kid a "pussy" is an expression of homophobia and sexism.

Exactly, currently in Iraq dozens of Goth kids have been murdered because the Islamic fundamentalists there see Gothic dress as homosexual in nature.

[Leftsolidarity]

Do you stop listening to that music or stop upholding those political views if you stop wearing those patches? I'm curently listening to Paradox which is the music of my teen year, and so many years I still love the music, and I don't need people reading it from my shirt or jacket.


Do you know what "cause and effect" is? I think we've gone over this stuff before. The jacket is a reflection of the music/political views. The music/political views are not a reflection of my jacket.




Why the need to reflect it by outward appearance, and sharing it with people who didn't ask about it.

Why does anyone wear anything that has some sort of fashion? I, personally, really like the way it looks. I like how it looks on me and I like how it looks on others. I don't feel comfortable in "normal" clothes.

Fashion is also a social message. It shows what you identify as, who you are similar too, who you don't like, your interests, etc. You do it too. You just do it differently than someone who dresses like me. You share what you are like with the way you dress, you just share a different message.

Most importantly, why do you care?


Also, I'd like to point out how stupid you're argument is and how other conservatives like you use it on others.

"Why the need to reflect it by outward actions, and sharing it with people who didn't ask about it."

Same exact shit used against LGBT people. I'd elaborate more but the bell just rang to let class out.

[fabian]

Why does anyone wear anything that has some sort of fashion?
Because they're superficial. Clothes should be durable, comfortable, practical, simple, afordable and likable to the wearer. Anything more then that is fashion, and all fashion is bollocks.


Most importantly, why do you care?
I don't, I'm simply pointing out that people who do- both those in subcultures, and those following some kind of mainstream fashion are wasting their time and energy on nonsensical stuff.


Also, I'd like to point out how stupid you're argument is and how other conservatives like you use it on others.

"Why the need to reflect it by outward actions, and sharing it with people who didn't ask about it."

Same exact shit used against LGBT people.
Perfectly justifiably question when directed to both the lgbt and the heterosexuals.

[Revolution starts with U]

I think we need to reiterate that the OP was not talking about getting made fun of, but by actually being discriminated against by the police, bosses, etc.

Just keeping the thread on topic :lol:

[gorillafuck]

Man, people who compare being picked on for their clothes to the discrimination endured by oppressed groups, really fucking disgust me.you're right that there's a really obvious difference, but its still asshole-ish to pick on people.

though a shitload of the things you say make it seem like you still fantasize about bullying weird 14 year olds.

[El Oso Rojo]

More like- want to be a non-conformist? Be a non conformist by life choices and personality, not by clothing. There ain't no bigger non-conformists then ultra-orthodox jews, and they're all uniformed.

"being a non comformist just for the sake of being no comformist is comformist" - a big fat sexy heterofriend,

[Goblin]

Send all the hipsters to gulags!

[rednordman]

I'm a gabber. People just think of what they hate the most and then accuse me of it.

[Crux]

Because they're superficial. Clothes should be durable, comfortable, practical, simple, afordable and likable to the wearer. Anything more then that is fashion, and all fashion is bollocks.


I don't, I'm simply pointing out that people who do- both those in subcultures, and those following some kind of mainstream fashion are wasting their time and energy on nonsensical stuff.


Perfectly justifiably question when directed to both the lgbt and the heterosexuals.
And while you may have your puritanical ideals and that is perfectly fine, but did you just basically deny that homophobia exists?

Also vaguely more on topic, I find the homophobia in the metal scene to be hilarious given that most of the attributes we associate with metal have their origin in the homsexual underground.

[NewLeft]

Augh - choice is such a bullshit bourgeois construction. It's not about the "choice" of an individual to dress a certain way, it's about the relationship between culture and techniques of control and classification. Further, said techniques are closely bound up with forms of domination like sexism, racism, etc. What's further disturbing about this thread is that it is ignoring the intersection between culture and marginalized identity - like, it's not as though punx, hippies, or kids who dress "hip hop" are all straight-white-males. That would make this all very convenient to dismiss, but it's not like that irl.

AUGH.
Sure, but what intersection between culture and marginalized identity?

[homegrown terror]

Do you know what "cause and effect" is? I think we've gone over this stuff before. The jacket is a reflection of the music/political views. The music/political views are not a reflection of my jacket.



Why does anyone wear anything that has some sort of fashion? I, personally, really like the way it looks. I like how it looks on me and I like how it looks on others. I don't feel comfortable in "normal" clothes.

Fashion is also a social message. It shows what you identify as, who you are similar too, who you don't like, your interests, etc. You do it too. You just do it differently than someone who dresses like me. You share what you are like with the way you dress, you just share a different message.

Most importantly, why do you care?


Also, I'd like to point out how stupid you're argument is and how other conservatives like you use it on others.

"Why the need to reflect it by outward actions, and sharing it with people who didn't ask about it."

Same exact shit used against LGBT people. I'd elaborate more but the bell just rang to let class out.

on a related note, we should have a "post politically-inspired clothes you've made" thread in the DIY section....as soon as i get the jacket i'm working on done, i think i might do so, i'd be interested to see what all everyone else has put together.

[homegrown terror]

Because they're superficial. Clothes should be durable, comfortable, practical, simple, afordable and likable to the wearer. Anything more then that is fashion, and all fashion is bollocks.

i'll agree with you that fashion is bollocks, but style is an entirely different matter.

[Sasha]

"I'm a hipster-yuppie, and I never get discriminated against, so, really, the problem must be that other people stink and are stupid."

STFU, poser.


Pretty sure that's not what he said at all. He's correct in saying that jobs don't want to hire you if you're stinky right? Yes. They don't like to hire people with bad social skills right? Yes.

He's saying (if I misinterpert this Psycho feel free to call me out on being wrong) that it's not because they are a punk that they don't get a job or something like that. It is because they smell and have bad social skills.

This is coming from a punk btw.

I clean up for work. It sucks but I got a job.

indeed, i'm far from a hipster yuppie, i actually look somewhere between a psychobilly and a skinhead in dire need of a haircut.
fact is that i never had trouble landing jobs based on my looks, and neither do most of my very punk sometimes even crusty freinds, sure we work in concert venues, schools, tattooshops, factories, gardeners etc etc and not in real-estate or as bankcounters but we wouldnt have wanted those jobs anyway. But non the less i work at a job where i'm expected to look presentable, sometimes even have to wear a tie & suit; yet i never got asked to take out my stretchers nor to cover my tattoo's etc etc. if you cant bring up to basic respect to others to jump under a shower and put on a clean shirt or are not willing to not get drunk/stoned before you expect to get paid to interact with others or food or something do not blame it on "discrimination!" if you don't get hired. I wouldnt want to work nor socialise with you either...

[Fawkes]

This is by choice, a person facing racism/homophobia..etc. doesn't have this option.

Well, the first part of what I was going to say is unnecessary now given that Virgin Molotov Cocktail explained it in a far calmer manner than I could have.

So if "choice" plays a role in determining whether one is the victim of discrimination, there must be no such thing as transphobia and homophobia. I mean, those two dudes had a choice to not hold hands in public before getting their asses kicked, right? Just like that drag queen didn't have to put on makeup before being murdered.


Because they're superficial. Clothes should be durable, comfortable, practical, simple, afordable and likable to the wearer. Anything more then that is fashion, and all fashion is bollocks.
things I don't care about:
1. your opinion


Perfectly justifiably question when directed to both the lgbt and the heterosexuals.
Yeah, why do hetero people always feel the need to express that aspect of themselves through outward actions like kissing members of the opposite sex?

[fabian]

And while you may have your puritanical ideals and that is perfectly fine, but did you just basically deny that homophobia exists?
There's a tendency of people holding hammers seeing nails everywhere. Where did I say that? I just pointed out that mentioned (and btw all) views and expressions of views should be consistently applied, and I didn't see homophobia there, just as I don't see heterophobia in saying the same thing to heterosexuals.


things I don't care about:
1. your opinion
You don't care about facts and rationality.

[roy]

@fabian, if clothes have to be likable to the wearer, doesn't that justify any sort of clothing, so long as it fills the other criteria, regardless of how outlandish or 'fashionable' it is? cool

[fabian]

There are a variety of styles, sure, but I really don't know of any outlandish and fashionable clothes that meet the mentioned basic characteristics of what clothing is for.

[roy]

well i could go out dressed as an industrial cleaning lady with a hair net and throw in some doc marten boots. i'd still meet all your aforementioned criteria, which is cool.

[fabian]

I once saw a guy on the street (and I live in Eastern Europe) in chuckies, a simple black knee-long skirt, some simple shirt, short hair with a padawan braid, and I found that cool- both the look and the fact he was wearing that in a city where gay and les people can easily get beaten on the street in downtown and punks and metalheads get wierd looks and an occasional rude shout. Although it might be I liked the look because I like the ancient greek chiton and it's cousins fustanella and kilt, and especially the ancient roman worker's/ military tunic x) Anyways, as I said, there could be a variety of styles, but the more you go into any fashion, whether subcultural or mainstream, the more clothes get pointless- not fulfulling it's purpose. I specifically see the elaborate punk subculture as pure poitlessness, a subculture that was (among other things) the epitome of anti-fashion turning into something where both punk artists and punkers every time spend tens of minutes on dressing up, sometimes more then superficial tarts getting ready for a night at some fancy club.

[Fawkes]

Fabian: The stupidest person you'll ever meet is also the most boring person you'll ever meet

[fabian]

hahaha :D whatever

[homegrown terror]

I once saw a guy on the street (and I live in Eastern Europe) in chuckies, a simple black knee-long skirt, some simple shirt, short hair with a padawan braid, and I found that cool- both the look and the fact he was wearing that in a city where gay and les people can easily get beaten on the street in downtown and punks and metalheads get wierd looks and an occasional rude shout. Although it might be I liked the look because I like the ancient greek chiton and it's cousins fustanella and kilt, and especially the ancient roman worker's/ military tunic x) Anyways, as I said, there could be a variety of styles, but the more you go into any fashion, whether subcultural or mainstream, the more clothes get pointless- not fulfulling it's purpose. I specifically see the elaborate punk subculture as pure poitlessness, a subculture that was (among other things) the epitome of anti-fashion turning into something where both punk artists and punkers every time spend tens of minutes on dressing up, sometimes more then superficial tarts getting ready for a night at some fancy club.

wrong. the hair is the only thing that takes "tens of minutes," and that's only if it's particularly long, and most of us only bother with it if we're going to a show/rally or something similar.

[Fawkes]

You don't care about facts and rationality.

Hmm, facts huh? What is factual about your claim that clothes are to serve a strictly utilitarian function?

Unless, of course, you didn't actually mean "facts and rationality", you simply couldn't think of any better comeback. In which case, you don't think there's anything factual about clothes serving strictly a utilitarian function, you're just a utilitarian. If that is the case, my guess is that you must live in a home with no interior walls (they serve little utilitarian purpose provided there is insulation), bare, unfinished floors, and zero decorative objects (posters and paint aren't very utilitarian), not as a result of your economic status, but simply because you believe things should only serve utilitarian purposes.



edit: After thinking about it more and reading through your comments in this and other threads, I've removed the more sardonic elements of this post. I also apologize for insulting you in my previous post. What I had initially interpreted as an apology for homophobia I now understand as being something entirely different, and given that, I don't think my aggressiveness was warranted.

That being said, I still take issue with your belief regarding the superficiality of human actions (the wearing of clothing being very much an action).

Here's the thing: Humans are social animals. Given that we're not telepathic, everything we['ve been constructed to] think is expressed through things like what we wear, how we arrange our living spaces, what we say, how we say it, how we walk, how we sit, what we eat, how we eat, where we eat, when we eat, etc., mediated by innumerable social and economic forces. You can change those forces, but you can't change the fact that we live outwardly.

[NewLeft]

Well, the first part of what I was going to say is unnecessary now given that Virgin Molotov Cocktail explained it in a far calmer manner than I could have.

So if "choice" plays a role in determining whether one is the victim of discrimination, there must be no such thing as transphobia and homophobia. I mean, those two dudes had a choice to not hold hands in public before getting their asses kicked, right? Just like that drag queen didn't have to put on makeup before being murdered.
I'm wrong, but I just wanted to make this clear. I was referring more to the trendsters.

[homegrown terror]

when i made the poll, i put the "no strong opinion" option there so, as a sidebar, i could ask why bother voting if you don't have a strong opinion, and highlight it as an example of why voting doesn't work. so anyone who chose that option, could you please tell us why.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

I sometimes feel like I'm being discriminated against by other leftists because I don't dress in black. :ninja:

I love that little ninja guy.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

Some of these new-fangled subcultures deserve to be discriminated against.

[homegrown terror]

Some of these new-fangled subcultures deserve to be discriminated against.

i'd agree that juggalos and dubstep kids should be ridiculed, but still not discriminated against.

[homegrown terror]

Do you stop listening to that music or stop upholding those political views if you stop wearing those patches? I'm curently listening to Paradox which is the music of my teen year, and so many years I still love the music, and I don't need people reading it from my shirt or jacket.


Why the need to reflect it by outward appearance, and sharing it with people who didn't ask about it.

it's worth note that a lot of the bands and causes that punks put on their jackets, skirts, pants etc are underground in nature, and if they really like the band or support their cause, and know that their style of dress is, if nothing else, memorable, then what better way to get the word out about something they really like?

[Revolution starts with U]

i'd agree that juggalos and dubstep kids should be ridiculed, but still not discriminated against.

No. Fuck you.

... that's why they became juggalos in the first place. Welcome to cognitive dissonance.

[Crux]

All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all which is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real condition of life and his relations with his kind.

[Agent Ducky]

Clothes really shouldn't be that big of a deal. People should wear what they want.
I just went through a dress-shopping ordeal with my mom. I legitimately don't feel comfortable wearing dresses,due to something like a shaky connection to society's role for my gender, which I'd like to reject completely, but stuff like this pops up to remind me. I'm not transgender, but I don't accept society's definition of femininity.
I never understood the purpose of formality. It's contrived. Every time I dress up for something formal I feel like I'm being dishonest. Yet if I boycotted it and wore what I'd like to wear (jeans, patch jacket, combat boots) I'd be discriminated against, for sure...
I feel like it's a really stupid thing to complain about but I never understood the purpose of it all.

[leftistman]

I misunderstood the question, so I made a vote I otherwise would not have made. I interpreted the poll as referring to entire societies and cultures. Thinking of religious fundamentalism, I voted that some cultures are "asking for it". In regard to appearance/subculture such as hip-hop, LGBT, etc. I am completely in favor of equality and tolerance.

[Leftsolidarity]

Well the first 2 answers don't contradict each other so I just chose the first one

[Ostrinski]

Picked choice two, even though some subcultures are lame and filled with tools

[white picket fence]

i like nice things like crew cuts and clean stretch cotton t-shirts that reveal my rippling six pack.

i think the working clas should strive to be mroe like james dean

[Leftsolidarity]

i think the working clas should strive to be mroe like james dean

James dean is dreamy :blushing:

[X5N]

Of course they should be treated fairly.

Because, well...fuck the social norm.

[The Jay]

I think that there is a realm of acceptability. If somebody wants a mohawk or crazy beard that's fine. If someone wants a swastica tattoo, fuck em. If someone wants to wear a burka, more power to them. If someone wants to wear a KKK robe they should expect a swift kick in the face. If someone wants to wear a republican logo button I'm fine with that. If someone wears a shirt that says kill all infidels (never seen it but this is a what if) then they should be ostracized.

There is a difference between acceptance of differences and toleration of the intolerable. Some ideologies cannot be lived with, so the answer to your question is, "it depends but most likely I don't care what someone wears."

[RedAtheist]

Here's the thing: Humans are social animals. Given that we're not telepathic, everything we['ve been constructed to] think is expressed through things like what we wear, how we arrange our living spaces, what we say, how we say it, how we walk, how we sit, what we eat, how we eat, where we eat, when we eat, etc., mediated by innumerable social and economic forces.

I take great comfort in knowing that the moment I step out of my house every minute (and often unconscious) decision I make is being scrutinised so that someone who does not know me can reach completely unwarranted conclusions about my personality. That couldn't lead to any unfair discrimination at all. *sarcasm*

I don't need to be told, for example, that I fat loser because I ate a burger once. I do not see this as a rational way by which to make judgements about my character, especially when the decisions listed are made without much thought.

How about instead of assuming that you need to able to figure out everything about a person by looking at them and analysing their every move, how about you, I don't know, TALK to people and get to know them properly over a period of interacting with them. Of course you can't get to know everybody in this way, but you don't need to have an idea in your mind of the personality of every random person you encounter on the street. It's okay to admit that you actually might not know what a person is really like, instead always assuming you do.


Fashion is also a social message. It shows what you identify as, who you are similar too, who you don't like, your interests, etc. You do it too. You just do it differently than someone who dresses like me. You share what you are like with the way you dress, you just share a different message.

If you think you are sending a profound social message, by wearing clothing that (like all other clothing) was likely to have been produced by sweat-shop labourers in third world countries and that corporations have (in some way or another) told you to wear than go ahead and do so. Feel free to line the capitalists' pockets by promoting the notion that 'identity' and 'individuality' come from buying the right clothes, instead of, oh I don't know, actually sharing your independently formed, radical beliefs with people. It's your choice after all.

Where I draw the line, however, is when people begin to implicitly judge me to be less of a radical, because of what I do or don't wear. I give about as good as I get. If you don't want me to judge you for what you wear, don't assume that I'm deliberately sending a "message" with what I wear. I may not look all "rebellious" (according to the definition of "looking rebellious" established by the mainstream media) but I still think and feel in rebellious ways, which is what rebellion really means in my opinion. Usually I just put on whatever clothing I feel comfortable in and that makes sense given the weather conditions, without concern for how others will perceive me. If you ask me that's the ultimate form of individuality, not analysing every decision one makes in order to insure that other people view you a certain way.

[Leftsolidarity]

If you want to think that the way people dress isn't a social message, go ahead.

I also don't think I said that the way one dresses affects how revolutionary someone is.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Voted two. Discriminating on the basis of appearance is absolutely ridiculous, and nothing short of insulting to other peoples' tastes. I've never understood this weird sort of 'socially acceptible' dress code people abide by - from when I was around five years old, no less. I actually remember asking my parents why girls can wear pants all they want, yet boys wearing dresses is weird and wrong.

Loathe subcultures, though.

[Philosophos]

Well I don't like to discriminate people by their looks or anything else but I really think it's also about aesthetics. Well anyone can bring this up and discriminate people because "they simply don't fit my good taste" but I'm not talking about a goth or a rapper. I hate the looks of the rappers but when I see one I'm not starting to tell him:" Go die in a ditch".

What I want to say with aesthetics is that I will mind if I see a guy dressed up as a unicorn with a strap on in his forehead instead of the horn dancing salsa with a thong while I see his hairy ass (pretty messed up).

It's all about respect from both sides. If you want to do a gay parade do it, if you want to show your underwear with your low-pants and wear a condom-like hat in your head do it I won't mind but don't be provocative for no actual reason.

Oh and I saw in a response that the looks is a good or bad way to get a job. Screw them if I'm good with my job I will go somewhere else ,where they don't mind and it's going to be their loss because they didn't choose me.

[fug]

Punks complaining about appearance based discrimination?
What has this world come to...:laugh:

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

People should be able to dress how they want! What is this, communism? 'drum riff'

[The Jay]

People should be able to dress how they want! What is this, communism? 'drum riff'

For the most part, yes. The original question said nothing about whether certain types of dress should be banned, but how the wearer should be treated. Do you think that someone with a swastika shirt should be treated "fairly"?

[Thirsty Crow]

For the most part, yes. The original question said nothing about whether certain types of dress should be banned, but how the wearer should be treated. Do you think that someone with a swastika shirt should be treated "fairly"?
I sure hope you wouldn't compare a nazi shirt wearing guy to a long haired worn out jeans and leather guy. I don't think it makes sense to conclude the swastika is a symbol of a subculture. It is an openly political symbol, and should be treated as such.

[The Jay]

The OP's question was general so I used an example to show that it is not always the case that sub-cultures should be tolerated. I think it is fair. If I misunderstood the OP could you explain it to me?

[Thirsty Crow]

The OP's question was general so I used an example to show that it is not always the case that sub-cultures should be tolerated. I think it is fair. If I misunderstood the OP could you explain it to me?Frankly, I don't remember the concrete point OP made.
But the point I would like to make is that neo-nazis do not constitute a sub-culture proper.
Sure, a lot of cultural practices, like fashion and music, are shared, but the underlying basis is purely political. That's why I wouldn't actually say that this is a case of discrimination of a sub-culture, since fashion symbols in this scenarion are entirely political.

EDIT: I checked the first post, and your example doesn't fit in with the intended purpose of this thread.

[Igor]

But the point I would like to make is that neo-nazis do not constitute a sub-culture proper.

"neo-nazis" maybe not but like white pride skinheads definitely do

[Thirsty Crow]

"neo-nazis" maybe not but like white pride skinheads definitely do
Yeah, OK, I think this is a fair point, but the example Emmanuel provided wasn't that specific, and OP set stricter topic guidelines actually (hippies, punks, metalheads etc.).

[The Jay]

Yeah, OK, I think this is a fair point, but the example Emmanuel provided wasn't that specific, and OP set stricter topic guidelines actually (hippies, punks, metalheads etc.).


I should have been more specific, since that is what I meant.

[Niall]

Frankly, I don't remember the concrete point OP made.
But the point I would like to make is that neo-nazis do not constitute a sub-culture proper.
Sure, a lot of cultural practices, like fashion and music, are shared, but the underlying basis is purely political. That's why I wouldn't actually say that this is a case of discrimination of a sub-culture, since fashion symbols in this scenarion are entirely political.

EDIT: I checked the first post, and your example doesn't fit in with the intended purpose of this thread.

would wearing a hammer and sickle tshirt be purely political too then? Or a Che tshirt - assuming you actually knew about him

[Thirsty Crow]

would wearing a hammer and sickle tshirt be purely political too then? Or a Che tshirt - assuming you actually knew about him
Yes, of course, though I think it is a somewhat different case with Che who became a pop-culture idol with politics completely evacuated (apart from a very vague sense of rebelliousness).

Now, to come back to the problem at hand, I still think that one should at least distinguish from subcultures which have a strong political bent, like WS skinheads, and those who do not.
Relating to the former, it is reasonable to assume that the person will be "discriminated" against not on the basis of hairstyle, clothing or any such thing, but on grounds of political symbolics. Is it a case of a discrimination on a subcultural basis? I'd still say no since there is no reason not to expect this discrimination to occur on a very specific basis - that of political symbols.

[Niall]

Yes, of course, though I think it is a somewhat different case with Che who became a pop-culture idol with politics completely evacuated (apart from a very vague sense of rebelliousness).

Now, to come back to the problem at hand, I still think that one should at least distinguish from subcultures which have a strong political bent, like WS skinheads, and those who do not.
Relating to the former, it is reasonable to assume that the person will be "discriminated" against not on the basis of hairstyle, clothing or any such thing, but on grounds of political symbolics. Is it a case of a discrimination on a subcultural basis? I'd still say no since there is no reason not to expect this discrimination to occur on a very specific basis - that of political symbols.

unless the person was wearing a swastika tshirt, or any other symbol, could you tell he/she was a WS skinhead just by looking?

[Thirsty Crow]

unless the person was wearing a swastika tshirt, or any other symbol, could you tell he/she was a WS skinhead just by looking?
That depends on the local varieties.
For instance, sporting soemthing like a "88" patch is a clear giveaway.

[Niall]

That depends on the local varieties.
For instance, sporting soemthing like a "88" patch is a clear giveaway.
obvioulsy, though would that not be considered political?

[Rottenfruit]

i would not like nazi skinhead neighours(yes that is a subculture) so yeah

[Mao_O]

Forget punk and goth. All leftists should wear Mao's cap!

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The best answer here is the first one. I personally find discrimination a natural thing within capitalist society, I am discriminatory against everybody equally.

[enlightened_ape2112]

People have the right to dress how they want without discrimination. I agree with Fawkes a lot of this is rooted in homophobia, racism, and sexism. For example predjudice against long haired men is mixed with hompohobia and sexism because it doesn't meet the mainstream definiton of what a male is supposed to be. Also I don't care at all for the argument that oh thses people are choosing to look like that so its okay. That's bullshit you have to right to choose what you want to look like. You can't compare wearing a dildo hat to dressing outside the norm. I also don't agree that this is just the way things are and we just have to put up with it and get over it. Get over it is an idiotic phrase. It has no empathy or understanding in it in fact its very fascist.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

The best answer here is the first one. I personally find discrimination a natural thing within capitalist society, I am discriminatory against everybody equally.
Isn't that the same line toted by bigots and libertards to justify cultural repression and hate-crime?

"Fucking negroes."

"What did you say, you fucking racist?"

"I'm not a racist! I hate everyone equally!"

[DoCt SPARTAN]

Discrimination is Unacceptable.........Humanist in my blood for godless better tomorrow!

[Revenant]

Discrimination exists within these subcultures, whether ultimately they organise into class based hierarchies, those most able to consume prove their worth?