What is the most dense, arcane, and esoteric Marxist theory you've ever read?

[Stadtsmasher]

I think for me its Juche. I can't really get my head around it.

What other theory strikes you as particularly inpenetrable?

[Koba Junior]

I don't find juche so much impenetrable as much as I find it completely incoherent.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Juche isn't a Marxist theory by any means. Its essentially a form of humanism combined (in a weird way) with self reliance and Korean nationalism.

If you're looking for dense, arcane Marxist theory, surf around libcom a bit. I'm sure you'll come up with something.Better yet, check out the theory section of the CPGB.

If you're looking for basic class struggle, well that's another matter.

[Q]

The Platypus Society has pretty dense stuff (http://platypus1917.org/).


Better yet, check out the theory section of the CPGB.
Hmm, do you have any examples?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Oh I was sort of referring to Mike McNair. I was being something of a smart as-their stuff is pretty accessible. I haven't been following the debates in Weekly Worker that closely but they do have interesting stuff to say/ I do have a feeling theyt are a bit over theoretical sometimes.

Platypus certainly takes the cake for impenetrable jargon though.

[gorillafuck]

platypus may take the cake.


Israel, the “tautological nation” as it is termed by Bahamas, magazine of the anti-German left, is an anomaly in general: It fits no scheme in the philosophy of history and expresses no recognizable political interest, whether of the bourgeoisie and their intellectual henchmen or of the Left and its theorists. from http://platypus1917.org/2010/10/08/communism-and-israel/

[Railyon]

Decadence Theory ranks pretty high on my list.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I still hope to someday have enough mental resolve to wrap my head around Situationist theory.

[black magick hustla]

lol all the stuff quoted above is nothing if you havent ventured in tiqqun land, or even worse, deleuze and guittari, cuz psychoanalysis def. takes the cake

[black magick hustla]

platypus may take the cake.

from http://platypus1917.org/2010/10/08/communism-and-israel/

this ius bullshit but its not impenetrable. its basically some antigerman bullshit about absolving israel from its sins or something

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah, that quote about the anti-Germans and Israel isn't really that hard to understand, as long as you have a certain degree of understanding regarding the topics discussed. I've had some difficulty with Tiqqun before, but that's probably because I haven't read (nor have I ever desired to read) any of Deleuze, Guittari or Agamben.

Also, "Empire" by Hardt/Negri is kind of dense in parts.

[ComradeOm]

I'm pretty sure that Hegel deliberately made his works obtuse just to ensure that people didn't waste time reading them. I tried to tackle Phenomenology of Mind (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/phindex.htm) some years ago and made it about two pages in before stopping with disgust. In terms of esotericism, I've always found Marxist attempts to 'disprove' the Big Bang using dialectical materialism to be pretty silly

As for stuff that's actually worth reading, I didn't enjoy Gramsci's Prison Notebooks. Well worth the effort, to be sure, but the very nature of their writing (as smuggled journals in a prison) means that as a whole they're fairly disjointed with concepts not flowing as logically as they should and generally lacking structure

[Die Neue Zeit]

Oh I was sort of referring to Mike Macnair. I was being something of a smart ass - their stuff is pretty accessible.

Yes you were. :glare:

[The Douche]

lol all the stuff quoted above is nothing if you havent ventured in tiqqun land, or even worse, deleuze and guittari, cuz psychoanalysis def. takes the cake

I got to "participate" (really, I just sat at the table feeling stupid) in a reading group on a deluze and guittari text. It made me feel bad about myself and how ignorant I am.

[Deicide]

I got to "participate" (really, I just sat at the table feeling stupid) in a reading group on a deluze and guittari text. It made me feel bad about myself and how ignorant I am.

How did you find a reading group for a Deluze and Guattari text :confused:

[The Douche]

How did you find a reading group for a Deluze and Guattari text :confused:

I was visiting my friends, they are Tiqqunists, one of the people from the house came and got me and said "hey, we're gonna do a little reading, want to come down?".

Hahahaha...

I was pretty surprised when I realized what we were gonna read, too.

[Valdyr]

I've always found Marxist attempts to 'disprove' the Big Bang using dialectical materialism to be pretty silly

Agreed. As a physics major, it's pretty infuriating to see. After all, how exactly does the (somewhat poorly named, I will say) big bang theory contradict dialectical materialism unless one's understanding of the latter is incredibly shallow and mechanical?

....oh wait (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Woods_(political_theorist))

Anyway, in terms of dense Marxist stuff, some of Adorno and Wilhelm Reich's writings are pretty bad, though I'll join in the choir saying Platypus takes the cake.

No doubt there are some texts that are more obscure (some of Lacan, Deleuze, Hegel, etc.) that aren't full-on Marxism.

[The Douche]

Who the fuck still reads Platypus? They're fucking state department socialists. Seriously, this shit is tripping me out, people in this thread talking about them, and I see that one of my facebook friends (and a member here) is going to the NATO conference "with" them (in some capacity, I dunno how close he is to them). I wanted to start shit with him about it on FB, but obviously he has bigger things to worry about right now than arguing about that.

But seriously, fuck Platypus.

[Valdyr]

But seriously, fuck Platypus.

I agree, but I've read some of their stuff because like you, I have a friend who's a member. I read a lot of stuff from groups I'm not a big fan of.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

No mention of Alain Badiou yet.... I think some of his stuff is pretty dense and sometimes even obscuritanist.

[Valdyr]

No mention of Alain Badiou yet.... I think some of his stuff is pretty dense and sometimes even obscuritanist.

I disagree, I find him pretty clear actually. Certainly his style is more "literary" than many analytic philosophers, but I have little trouble understanding his writing. His ideas are pretty tough, but I don't find he conveys them poorly.

Being and Event, for example, I find a lot clearer than something like Difference and Repetition (Deleuze).

[Pretty Flaco]

the fuck is platypus? their name sounds like a cult that worships marsupials or something

[Valdyr]

the fuck is platypus? their name sounds like a cult that worships marsupials or something

It's a graveyard for sectarian irrelevant leftist groups that are out of steam to die in peace by debating other such groups and criticizing actual relevant thinkers and movements.

[black magick hustla]

I disagree, I find him pretty clear actually. Certainly his style is more "literary" than many analytic philosophers, but I have little trouble understanding his writing. His ideas are pretty tough, but I don't find he conveys them poorly.


lol that is because you are a kasamite

[ComradeOm]

It's a graveyard for sectarian irrelevant leftist groups that are out of steam to die in peace by debating other such groups and criticizing actual relevant thinkers and movements.So how are they different from the majority of other left groups?

[The Douche]

So how are they different from the majority of other left groups?

Cause they're US anti-germans.

[L.A.P.]

Derrida and Heidegger write way too confusingly for what their points actually come down to. Felix Guttari and Gilles Deleuze were pretentious fucks, Anti-Oedipus has got to be one of the most nonsensical things I've ever attempted to read. They thought they could edit and revise the theories of every philosopher they could think of with pure bullshit. Schizoanalysis, desiring-production, plane of immanence, body without organs. I thought I was being trolled.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Dialectical materialism. :cool:

[Ravachol]

lol all the stuff quoted above is nothing if you havent ventured in tiqqun land, or even worse, deleuze and guittari, cuz psychoanalysis def. takes the cake

Braudillard's seduction theory and Lacanian Psychoanalysis are definitely a labyrinth compared to some more esoteric forms of Marxism. Even guys like Althusser, Adorno or Marcuse are just really boring as opposed to the 'LOL WTF DID I JUST READ' of continental philosophy. Then again, it isn't Marxism (though some of it originated within Marxism).

Also, I find all kinds of Critical Theory/Frankfurter schule Marxism applied to art and culture to be kinda obscurantist for it's own sake, like what Zizek does or Oscar-Guardiola Rivera or stuff like post-autonomia Negri and his 'constituency' bullshit which is really reformist blablabla.



Anti-Oedipus has got to be one of the most nonsensical things I've ever attempted to read


I disagree. It's needlessly dense, jargon-heavy and obscure but they make a lot of valid points and it's full of lucid nuggets. It really just depends on through what lens you read the whole thing and what you're trying to extract from their work.

[Prometeo liberado]

Obviously y'all havent given Avakian's The New Synthesis a proper going over yet. I found myself crying at 4 am wondering how he did it to me again.


Dialectical materialism. http://www.revleft.com/vb/most-dense-arcane-t171573/revleft/smilies/001_cool.gif
Don't be daft son.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What is Avakian's The New Synthesis exactly?

[Prometeo liberado]

What is Avakian's The New Synthesis exactly?

You pretty much summed it all up right there. Take the PSL egoism and couple it with Sendero Luminoso theoretical obscurity and there you have The New Synthesis. Its so full of nonsense that the Nepalese Communist party told the RCP to stop contacting them regarding all that crap. This should give you a start:

http://ri-ir.org/2012/03/29/bob-avakians-new-synthesis-a-critique-part-1/

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Avakian is just a pretentious bullshitter.

[Prometeo liberado]

Avakian is just a pretentious bullshitter.

Its kind of a guilty pleasure of mine to follow him and his little cells. There has to be some type of twelve step program to get off of my Avakian kick. Its like looking into the sun I guess. Poor Mike Ely has already gone intellectually blind from his time at the foot of this Man-God.

[Robespierres Neck]

If you think Juche is bad... try it with a side of Jim Joneism.
http://ruralpeople.atspace.org/

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Don't be daft son.

Don't hate, just appreciate.

[Deicide]

Avakian is God.

[Prometeo liberado]

Avakian is God.

Niiiice!

[The Douche]

Let's try and stay slightly more serious in this thread, please.

[Pretty Flaco]

honestly it was hard for me to understand the communist manifesto. i read online notes on it to help me through. but it's mostly hard to read because the language outdated.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Late-era Bordiga is all sorts of crazy. Not saying it's necessarily bad or not worth reading, just that his use of language is bizarre and hard to decipher.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

honestly it was hard for me to understand the communist manifesto. i read online notes on it to help me through. but it's mostly hard to read because the language outdated.

Really? The manifesto is actually one of the few things from Marx where I didn't have to google certain words.

[Red Joe]

Anybody ever give Social Text a look-see?

In 1996, it was the witless victim of a hoax wherein a contributor, Alan Sokal, submitted an article arguing that gravity was a bourgeois social construction. He was trying to make a point about their careless embrace of horseshit jargon.

Funny stuff.

[Ravachol]

Late-era Bordiga is all sorts of crazy. Not saying it's necessarily bad or not worth reading, just that his use of language is bizarre and hard to decipher.

Anything coming out of the post-Bordiga milieu (Invariance/Camatte, etc.) has this really weird almost ideosyncratic vocabulary that just seems a little 'off'. Might be the fact that all of it is translated from french and/or italian but still, it seems way more obscure than the language used by the rest of the ultra-left (which says something) or whatever.