What do you think should happen to Breivik?

[Blanquist]

He's just sitting there in a sharp suit, smiling, and will get a nice prison cell to relax in.

How would have handled it? Do you think he should just be shot? Or do you agree with Norway's humane method of dealing with mass-murdering fascists?

[MustCrushCapitalism]

How would [you?] have handled it?
Gulag.

[seventeethdecember2016]

He should be given a pill to erase all his memories, and then rehabilitated to society.

Some testing is being done on the production of such pills.

[Blanquist]

Given a pill to erase all his memories, and then rehabilitated to society.

Some testing is being done on the production of such pills.

Such a pill would be so dangerous in the hands of the ruling classes.

We better hope those pills don't get made.

[Zav]

Given a pill to erase all his memories, and then rehabilitated to society.

Some testing is being done on the production of such pills.
Do the scientists working on this not know that such a thing would be more dangerous than a nuclear bomb? Seriously, even developing that technology is criminal.

Personally I think he should be rehabilitated. He's obviously disturbed. He should, however remain under some form of observation for the rest of his life.

[Koba Junior]

Put him down. Like we're short on right-wing nut-jobs or something.

[honest john's firing squad]

Do the scientists working on this not know that such a thing would be more dangerous than a nuclear bomb?
I don't think an amnesia-inducing pill can level entire cities and kill millions, no.

[Koba Junior]

I don't think an amnesia-inducing pill can level entire cities and kill millions, no.

Still, I suspect I'd be impressed by the amount of damage millions of panicking amnesiacs might do on their own.

[Zealot]

How can you rehabilitate a man who was politically motivated? There's no point in executing him when he could be made to contribute several years of labour to society. So I'm going with Gulag, however, I would consider other options if someone could convince me otherwise.

[Blanquist]

How can you rehabilitate a man who was politically motivated? There's no point in executing him when he could be made to contribute several years of labour to society. So I'm going with Gulag, however, I would consider other options if someone could convince me otherwise.

Maybe use him for some risky medical tests?

[Koba Junior]

How can you rehabilitate a man who was politically motivated? There's no point in executing him when he could be made to contribute several years of labour to society. So I'm going with Gulag, however, I would consider other options if someone could convince me otherwise.

Have you considered that we might extract labor from the guy, then put a cap in him?

[seventeethdecember2016]

Maybe use him for some risky medical tests?
Clever remark, as your trying to lure Marxist-Leninists into claiming that they promote something done by the Nazis, but the fish aren't biting today. I also think Exoprism was kidding.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I do seem to recall Breivik was training to gain muscles... *hm*

[dodger]

How can you rehabilitate a man who was politically motivated? There's no point in executing him when he could be made to contribute several years of labour to society. So I'm going with Gulag, however, I would consider other options if someone could convince me otherwise.

How can we speak of political motives if a man needs rehabilitation? I await courts ruling as to his mental condition/ Clearly he is deemed able to defend himself. Mental illness does not seem a factor. Psychopaths are untreatable, Looks likely he will die in prison. There are no politics here Norwegians have been left a terrible legacy by this fellow. .The sooner the process is completed, the sooner people can reclaim shattered lives. Lets not attach any importance to him , that he may crave.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I don't think an amnesia-inducing pill can level entire cities and kill millions, no.

Drop a few of them in the water supply of a big city and we'll see what will happen.

[ridethejetski]

I also think Exoprism was kidding.

Why would you think that? I mean, his avatar is a man who's regime carried out such acts on a massive scale...

[Zav]

I don't think an amnesia-inducing pill can level entire cities and kill millions, no.
If a country uses a nuclear explosive, the whole world knows about it and can condemn them. If a country erases the memories of their political enemies, only a few people will know about it, and no one would be able o oppose them. This is the stuff of conspiracy theorists' nightmares.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

He's not even worth the future Arctic gulags that I will build in Norway (even though I am American . . . I will be supreme ruler of da world). Just execution.

[Sir Comradical]

I say executions are necessary only when our side needs to secure victory in wars. However there's nothing to be gained by executing this guy other than the joy that comes from revenge. If it's possible to rehabilitate him and show that even the worst psychopaths can be transformed then it's a win for humanity. The way we approach civilian crimes should be a reflection of how legality would take on new forms once the property relations of capitalism have been abolished.

[Princess Luna]

I say executions are necessary only when our side needs to secure victory in wars. However there's nothing to be gained by executing this guy other than the joy that comes from revenge. If it's possible to rehabilitate him and show that even the worst psychopaths can be transformed then it's a win for humanity. The way we approach civilian crimes should be a reflection of how legality would take on new forms once the property relations of capitalism have been abolished.
How are executions necessary to 'achieve victory in war'? If an enemy general is captured is it really going to matter that much if he is sitting a cell for the remainder of the war, rather then dead? Or are you talking about executing deserters? Because that is wrong on so many levels...

As for Breivik, insane or not, I think he should be put away until it's determined he is not longer a threat and then he should be released. Prisons should only exist to protect people, never as a tool of revenge.

[Igor]

we should give him all the hugs he obviously didn't get as a kid :(

[Le Penseur Libre]

He should be given a pill to erase all his memories, and then rehabilitated to society.

Some testing is being done on the production of such pills.

Name of said pills. I believe in death penality.

[Drosophila]

Name of said pills. I believe in death penality.

Why not just sentence him to a life of hard labor? That lessens the likelihood of him becoming a martyr for the racists.

[Sir Comradical]

How are executions necessary to 'achieve victory in war'? If an enemy general is captured is it really going to matter that much if he is sitting a cell for the remainder of the war, rather then dead? Or are you talking about executing deserters? Because that is wrong on so many levels...

Obviously enemy generals wouldn't be executed because they're bargaining chips and can be traded. Yes I am talking about executing people for desertion, insubordination, and treason. If I was on the front-lines even I'd need a line of officers behind me threatening to shoot if I retreated, that's just the nature of war. Anyway good luck defending your revolution with cuddles and kisses.


As for Breivik, insane or not, I think he should be put away until it's determined he is not longer a threat and then he should be released. Prisons should only exist to protect people, never as a tool of revenge.

Agreed.

[GPDP]

Looks like the bloodlusters are out in force today, judging from this thread.

On top of all the things that have already been said over and over in this board on why the death penalty is both useless and reactionary, you would literally only be doing him a favor. Here is a man who if he had his way would like nothing more than to use the state to take life away from those he finds to be undesirable, and our response is... to implement the very policy he desires.

Good job, you would put us one step closer to his ideal vision of society in giving the fucking state power over life and death, AND you would make him a martyr in the process. He really couldn't ask for anything more.

And to the people advocating forced labor... you are not my comrades either. We should fucking know better than to resort to slave labor. I don't give a fuck whether they deserve it or not. We are supposed to end exploitation, not turn into exploiters ourselves.

Don't get me wrong, my base feelings tell me I would like nothing better than to see this putrid piece of shit put up against the wall and shot until dead, and his corpse thrown onto a maggot-infested ditch to rot, but I know better than to let my emotions define my politics, and I think you all should as well. Killing him will not undo his heinous crimes, nor will it be worth the can of worms one opens upon giving the state, socialist or capitalist, the authority to forfeit life itself.

[Left Leanings]

What Brevik did was horrendous.

He espoused racist and nazi ideas. Those ideas took hold of him, and the result has been devastating. Racism and nazism fucks people over. Both Brevik's victims - and Brevik himself. He's one of a long-line of disturbed individuals, who have messed up the lives of others, and their own lives, having been seduced by nazism.

It's a foregone certainty that Brevik will be convicted.

He should be detained in a humane and secure penal or hospital environment, until he can (if possible) be successfully rehabilitated, or until he poses no realistic threat to anyone ever again :star:

[seventeethdecember2016]

Name of said pills. I believe in death penality.
I'm not sure if 'painful memories' are the same as regular memories. Even so, I bet it'd only be a stretch to make both possible.

http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/01/6757302-pill-could-erase-painful-memories-study-shows?lite (http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/01/6757302-pill-could-erase-painful-memories-study-shows?lite)

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2012/02/ff_forgettingpill/all/1

[Red Commissar]

The conversation should be less about what to do about Breivik, and how to prevent future Breiviks. Even among those arguing that an example must be made of him to serve as a deterrent against future cases, you'll still have the festering political environment that Breivik came from and probably thousands more too. People like Breivik actually want that heavy handed treatment because it'll help fufil their stupid mentality that they're becoming martyrs against an oppressive system.

Giving Breivik execution or "hard" punishment won't really solve anything, and it goes without saying it will not really alleviate the suffering of the victims' families, though there'll undoubtedly be an outcry that Breivik got off easy.

Ideally there should be action taken to check the growth of that toxic mindset Breivik came from that got him (and others) in to this mentality of hatred. Sad thing is really had Breivik not really gone into this shooting rampage, his views would have had simply been written off as being part of the people worried about the sovereignty of Norway and immigration "problems".

[Koba Junior]

Having actually read some of what has been made available of Breivik's work, I'd have to question why killing the guy is doing what he wants. The death penalty isn't exactly what he had in mind.

[Drosophila]

I don't give a fuck whether they deserve it or not. We are supposed to end exploitation, not turn into exploiters ourselves.


It's not like all exploited workers are racist murderers.

But please note that I'm not pushing for him to be sent to some forced labor camp or something. I'm just questioning why people call for capital punishment instead of "real" punishment.

[Koba Junior]

gulag gulag gulag fucking stalinists.

Yeah, whoever thought extracting labor from someone who's otherwise harmful to society was a good idea? Trotsky would've done something completely different, I'm sure.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Trotsky would've done something completely different, I'm sure.

.../sarcasm.

Only moralist anti-materialists have a problem with our gulags.

/Being serious

[Drosophila]

Yeah, whoever thought extracting labor from someone who's otherwise harmful to society was a good idea? Trotsky would've done something completely different, I'm sure.

Is this sarcasm?

If not, why would you want to extract labor from someone in a capitalist society? I mean even in socialism it's stupid, but why under capitalism?

[Koba Junior]

Is this sarcasm?

If not, why would you want to extract labor from someone in a capitalist society? I mean even in socialism it's stupid, but why under capitalism?

This question doesn't even make any sense.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Is this sarcasm?

If not, why would you want to extract labor from someone in a capitalist society? I mean even in socialism it's stupid, but why under capitalism?

/Renegade Marxist-Leninist.

[Drosophila]

This question doesn't even make any sense.

- You want to make use of Anders Breivik by putting him through forced labor

- Doing so would probably not be useful, but if it was, it would help build up a capitalist society

- You oppose capitalism

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

- You want to make use of Anders Breivik by putting him through forced labor

- Doing so would probably not be useful, but if it was, it would help build up a capitalist society

- You oppose capitalism

When does extracting someone's labor for the benefit of society in a penal context=capitalism?

[Leftsolidarity]

Compromise: We cuddle him in a gulag as we execute him.

See, everyone's happy now!

[Drosophila]

When does extracting someone's labor for the benefit of society in a penal context=capitalism?

Norway is a capitalist society. Making Breivik (even though he's one person, so it wouldn't make a difference) go into forced labor would build up a capitalist system.

Essentially you're taking a bourgeois role, even if Breivik is a scum bag.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Norway is a capitalist society. Making Breivik (even though he's one person, so it wouldn't make a difference) go into forced labor would build up a capitalist system.

Essentially you're taking a bourgeois role, even if Breivik is a scum bag.

Good point. Then we'll just kill him.

If Norway was socialist . . . then fun time Arctic gulag.

[Drosophila]

If Norway was socialist . . . then fun time Arctic gulag.

I know you're joking, but still....pointless.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I think Breivak should be taken seriously as exactly what he says he is.He explicitly stated that his mass murder was a political act. He wants people to regard his crime as a political act. That is exactly what it is. The Norwegian and international ruling classes do not want to confront the political nature of his mass murder. The respectable right and even social democrats do not want to admit their complicity in his crime by having whipped up racism against people from Muslim countries, immigrants, minorities.

We should not allow the ruling class to mask this political crime under the cover of insanity. Breivak is clearly "sane", his pathology is that of capitalism in decline.

There should be a major examination of the society that produced Breivak, not just radical right fringe groups but of the broader psychopathology of capitalism.

While on trial and in prison Breivak should be given no platform to air his "views".I don't know anything about the Norwegian legal system but as much as possible this mass murderer should be denied a platform.The best thing that could come out of this would be an official judgement of some sort of Breivak as a political criminal and, after some time, a deep national discussiion of what led to his crime should follow.

As far as Breivak himself? I'm not a vindictive person but if Knew or were related to one of the victims I very well might feel much differently. At the very least he should spend the rest of his life confronted with the grief and loss he has caused. Perhaps, years from now, if he ever reaches a degree of repentance he could provide a small amount of restorative justice in helping us to understand his twisted and diseased thinking, in a similar way to "ex-extremist" organisations of former terrorists.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I know you're joking, but still....stupid.

Hurtful.

[Red Commissar]

Having actually read some of what has been made available of Breivik's work, I'd have to question why killing the guy is doing what he wants. The death penalty isn't exactly what he had in mind.

We must be reaching different conclusions about his rants then. Lot of his language involves this concept of 'defending' Norway (and Europe) from this supposed comspiracy of "cultural Marxists" and Muslims to destroy it. There's an impression of laying down one's life to counter that, and to that end his fetish with the Templars and crusaders suits his delusion that he was doing the same. Indeed he would see himself as another in the long line of victims from this supposed conspiracy.

Even with all this said and done though, I'm not sure how any form of capital punishment could do anything, or these suggestions of prison labor. What precedent does that set for other prisoners? Socialism shouldn't really have the prisons so abundant under our current society, we should be thinking of ways to move beyond this.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

... a nice prison cell to relax in.

How would have handled it? Do you think he should just be shot? Or do you agree with Norway's humane method of dealing with mass-murdering fascists?

It's like reading a Daily Mail article.

I think someone else took to the idea that the best way to deal with someone you despise was to simply shoot them and he's on trial for it at the moment...however disgusting and unforgivable his deeds are, I can never support the idea of state-sponsored, 'legal' killing of any kind.
What I feel should have happened was a trial set up where he was not given so much time to pose for the cameras and spout his nonsense, which is all he really wants..then lock him up forever with bear minimum requirements of food, water and sanitation.

[MotherCossack]

I think Breivak should be taken seriously as exactly what he says he is.He explicitly stated that his mass murder was a political act. He wants people to regard his crime as a political act. That is exactly what it is. The Norwegian and international ruling classes do not want to confront the political nature of his mass murder. The respectable right and even social democrats do not want to admit their complicity in his crime by having whipped up racism against people from Muslim countries, immigrants, minorities.

We should not allow the ruling class to mask this political crime under the cover of insanity. Breivak is clearly "sane", his pathology is that of capitalism in decline.

There should be a major examination of the society that produced Breivak, not just radical right fringe groups but of the broader psychopathology of capitalism.

While on trial and in prison Breivak should be given no platform to air his "views".I don't know anything about the Norwegian legal system but as much as possible this mass murderer should be denied a platform.The best thing that could come out of this would be an official judgement of some sort of Breivak as a political criminal and, after some time, a deep national discussiion of what led to his crime should follow.

As far as Breivak himself? I'm not a vindictive person but if Knew or were related to one of the victims I very well might feel much differently. At the very least he should spend the rest of his life confronted with the grief and loss he has caused. Perhaps, years from now, if he ever reaches a degree of repentance he could provide a small amount of restorative justice in helping us to understand his twisted and diseased thinking, in a similar way to "ex-extremist" organisations of former terrorists.

i agree with a lot of what you say... but there is a contradiction in your argument..... if the accused is sane... which he certainly seems to be... then it would be difficult to argue that his thinking was diseased and twisted.
on the other hand .... maybe i am wrong.... sanity is such a difficult thing to assess.... or even really define.
If a sane person does this... then what is sanity?
i am sure most people are horrified and traumatised by the thought of being responsible for even a tiny fraction of his crimes.... it does not bear thinking about.... let alone... planning or anything more....
i can not reconcile the notion with him being sane with what he did.....
maybe there are two kinds of sanity.... the obvious kind that is easily detectable where the patient is clearly in a different reality, hears voices, shows no comprehension of acceptable behaviour and is clearly a threat if not restrained, physically, or by medication or other means.
- and there is another kind ... where no obvious signs of insanity exist and the patient clearly understands the complexities of society and human interaction and his or her place in that.
If such a person was to , for some reason, suffer damage to the 'mind' ... abuse, of any kind, pro-longed exposure to very unnatural influences, brain-washing, mis-use drugs, suffer depression for long periods, pyschological trauma like post traumatic stress disorder... non of which are identified or treated in any way....
it would probably take 2 or more factors to combine in a particular unhealthy environment... but a person could become volatile and develop a warped view of the world... which if not addressed would .... deepen, solidify and given the sufficiently malign opportunity turn to who knows what.....
There is evidence in history that shit like this happens.... Hitler.....and Nazi Germany... but I dont know enough about that....

I am not excusing the man..... he is truly awful and has no defense... he did what he did and there is no defense... the trial is a waste of money..... how can you defend that... no not possible.
But what to do with him.....? that is the question.... I do not believe in capital punishment... but this comes close... but that is too easy and we are better than that.....
still... it is hard.. how to extract remorse.. and would it help anyway?

[Agathor]

I doubt there are many people here who are comfortable with Breivik continuing to live. However, anyone who thinks about about it calmly for a few minutes realizes that there is nothing to gain and much to lose by reintroducing the death penalty. What do we get from killing him? Only a brief satisfaction. Those children will stay dead, and there's no evidence that the execution would discourage similar acts. What do we lose? Well, all the people who will be convicted of murder via miscarriages of justice -- and there are a few of them every year -- will be killed before we figure out that they're innocent. Therefore the likely consequence of the death penalty is an increase in murders of innocent people.

[Angry Young Man]

It's tempting to want violent retribution for someone like Breivik. Thing is, rehabilitation is probably the cruellest method. He's beyond help, which means a life in a secure unit would give him more of a sense of being persecuted than being publicly flogged.

[MotherCossack]

I have it!
Castration.... then a period of reflection
Then a Lobotomy....
We could test new medicines on him... that we he might even serve some purpose and if it results in one life saved somewhere along the line.... well it 's something.

[Lanky Wanker]

He should be given a pill to erase all his memories, and then rehabilitated to society.

Some testing is being done on the production of such pills.

Would be a great solution, but memory is far too complicated to be controlled in such a precise way. It would indeed take years to get this even close to safe to use on people.



I doubt there are many people here who are comfortable with Breivik continuing to live. However, anyone who thinks about about it calmly for a few minutes realizes that there is nothing to gain and much to lose by reintroducing the death penalty. What do we get from killing him? Only a brief satisfaction. Those children will stay dead, and there's no evidence that the execution would discourage similar acts. What do we lose? Well, all the people who will be convicted of murder via miscarriages of justice -- and there are a few of them every year -- will be killed before we figure out that they're innocent. Therefore the likely consequence of the death penalty is an increase in murders of innocent people.

This is how I see it. People always say "they must have conclusive proof", but look where that's gotten us. I saw a film (and yes, it may just be a film, but it could and undoubtedly has happened in real life at some point) in which a man killed a child and the parents captured him during his journey to the prison. They tortured him to no end, until he finally escaped to hang himself. Problem is they had the wrong guy -- he'd lost his memory in the crash and convinced himself that he was the one who actually committed the crime. They arrested the right guy and everything, but when they captured him from the van taking him to be locked up they took the wrong fellow. Obviously this won't happen in every case, but is one innocent life worth a hundred guilty lives? I don't agree with the death penalty for reasons beyond this, so I'm not purely basing my view on the "what if we get the wrong person?" possibility. I think that such murderers and people who are obviously fucked in the head to a great degree should be kept away from the public for the safety of the public and the people themselves. You can't show that killing is wrong by killing someone; would we give a rapist the 'rape sentence'?

[Niall]

look him up in a small cell where he cant poison anyone else with his views

[Sir Comradical]

Yeah, whoever thought extracting labor from someone who's otherwise harmful to society was a good idea? Trotsky would've done something completely different, I'm sure.

Yeah sure, under socialism everyone has an obligation to work and being punished doesn't relieve anyone of those obligations. However forced labour under capitalism IS what the prison industrial complex is all about - cheap labour for capitalists.

[ridethejetski]

.../sarcasm.

Only moralist anti-materialists have a problem with our gulags.

/Being serious

I always wonder why calling someone a 'moralist' is a slur.

Perhaps your type could do with a little morality...

[Angry Young Man]

I think it's something to do with being stubborn or unable to adapt to the times.

However, the death penalty to me denies the social causes of crime, which isn't the most Marxian tack tbh.