Chinese pills made from dead babies found in South Korea

[Arlekino]

I don't know what to say about that. I am in shock right now.
Thousands of pills filled with powdered human flesh have been discovered by customs officials in South Korea, Daily Mail reported yesterday.
The capsules are in demand because they are viewed as being a medicinal ‘cure-all’.
The grim trade is being run from China where corrupt medical staff are said to be tipping off medical companies when babies are aborted or delivered still-born.
The tiny corpses are then bought, stored in household refrigerators in homes of those involved in the trade before they are removed and taken to clinics where they are placed in medical drying microwaves.
Once the skin is tinder dry, it is pummelled into powder and then processed into capsules along with herbs to disguise the true ingredients from health investigators and customs officers.
The discoveries since last August has shocked even hardened customs agents who have pledged to strengthen inspections.
Chinese officials are understood to have been aware of the trade and have tried to stop the capsules being exported but thousands of packets of them have been smuggled through to South Korea.
Danger:
The Chinese Ministry of Health has launched an investigation into the alleged production of pills made from dead babies
There is a huge demand for alternative Chinese remedies - which include ground up rhino horns.
The Chinese have historically consumed human placentas to improve blood supply and circulation.
Health authorities in Asia are concerned that if the powdered foetus trade is allowed to continue the capsules will find their way onto the internet and be sold to gullible or sick desperate people in other parts of the world.
The South Korean Customs Service said it had heightened its searches of suspicious packages being brought into the country by travellers from China in an attempt to stamp out the sickening trade.
According to customs agents, 35 smuggling attempts have been made since August last year involving more than 17,000 capsules disguised as ‘stamina boosters’.
Hospitals and abortion clinics in China reportedly pass the remains onto drugs companies when a baby is stillborn or aborted, the South Korean SBS documentary team reported last year.
The San Francisco Times reported that tests carried out on the pills confirmed they were made up of 99.7 per cent human remains.
The tests were successfully able to establish the genders of the babies used.
There is a huge demand for the pills which are thought to enhance stamina. Microwave-dried placenta is also sought after for its alleged ‘medicinal’ benefits.
However, in reality the human flesh capsules contain super-bacteria and other harmful ingredients.
A number of smugglers who have been detained by the South Korean authorities have claimed they did not know what the ingredients were or the manufacturing process behind them.
Ethnic Koreans from North-east China who now live in South Korea are those who were mostly intending to use the capsules or share them with other Korean-Chinese’ said a customs official.
‘They are normally brought into South Korea in luggage or posted by international mail.’
The capsules were all confiscated but no one has been punished because the amount was deemed small and they were not intended for sale, a customs official added.
Chinese newspapers have identified the Northeastern provinces as the source of the human flesh capsules, in particular the Jilin region which is close to North Korea.
There have been disturbing reports that some babies were those who had perished in China’s notorious ‘dying rooms’ where youngsters are deliberately left to die because they were born into families that already had the limit of one child in country areas.
In order to keep its population down, China performs 13 million abortions a year - mainly because mothers sacrifice their newborns to avoid punishment such as severe fines or even a beating by the authorities.
The Chinese authorities have confirmed that 38 per cent of women of child-bearing age have been sterilised - but the babies that are aborted do not go to waste because of the sickening trade in using their corpses for purported medicinal purposes.
Despite their disgust at discovering packets of the so-called rejuvenation pills being brought in from China, South Korean officials have refused to confirm where the babies came from or who made the capsules.
Sources said this was because they were not prepared to create diplomatic friction with Beijing, preferring to leave it to Chinese officials to do something about the horrific trade in powdered babies.

http://www.thenationonlineng.net/2011/index.php/news/46082-chinese-pills-made-from-dead-babies-found-in-south-korea.html

[Zav]

Two words: Daily Mail.
It's lame propaganda, and it's certainly no worse than U.S. industrial practices.

[scarletghoul]

Two words: Daily Mail.
It's lame propaganda, and it's certainly no worse than U.S. industrial practices.
I can see why youd say that, but i seriously dont think we can rule out the possibility that this is true. there are some really fucked up people, and awful superstitions are becoming very widespread in the world at the moment

[Bostana]

How do you spell 'Conspiracy Theory'?

[Astarte]

I can see why youd say that, but i seriously dont think we can rule out the possibility that this is true. there are some really fucked up people, and awful superstitions are becoming very widespread in the world at the moment

Its actually really not that far-fetched seeing as though the Communist Party of China has become a typical total ruling class at this point, mixing capitalist and state power as they see fit with whatever other ideas and ideologies they want ... I wouldn't be surprised if some inner-party members were even behind the whole thing seeing as though no one has yet to have been prosecuted for this crime.

In traditional Chinese folk medicine there have been all kinds of taboo, mythical and semi-legendary cure-alls - and in Chinese history, of course attempts to attain them - one mythical elixer in Chinese folk-tales can be found in the 16th century novel "Journey to the West" - it is the fruit from a tree called the "Man-fruit tree" it grows humanoid fruit every 10,000 years and if one eats one of these fruits one is said to become immortal - as the poster above mentioned, there are actually out there people who believe this kind of thing will have some kind of health-benefit.

http://innerjourneytothewest.com/english/books/JTW/JTW25.html

[Questionable]

I shudder to think of what other ingredients are put into products we consume daily that nobody knows about yet.

[RedHal]

holy fuck, even ppl on scumfront are doubting this story, but here on revleft they'll believe this racist shit. The South Koreans hate the Chinese as much as they hate the North, figure it out.

[Drosophila]

Yeah, seems bogus. I was pretty much sold at "super bacteria."

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Oh, and to stick with the subject this is probably bull

[Astarte]

I really wasn't making a judgement as to whether or not it was true. Its just that ruling classes in situations of total power tend to get pretty inhumane. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Koba Junior]

I really wasn't making a judgement as to whether or not it was true. Its just that ruling classes in situations of total power tend to get pretty inhumane. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me.

It's unlikely that the inhumanity occurring here is the production of pills made from powdered baby. What's more likely is that the inhumanity being perpetrated is the propagation of sensationalist news designed to play on the fear and ignorance of the East prevalent among many Westerners.

[Blanquist]

Those of you saying this couldn't be true are very naive.

[Koba Junior]

Those of you saying this couldn't be true are very naive.

After all, pills being made from powdered baby happens constantly. You've seen it for yourself, of course.

[Blanquist]

After all, pills being made from powdered baby happens constantly. You've seen it for yourself, of course.

Don't be a condescending prick, it doesn't make you look smarter.

Where did anyone claim this is done constantly?

Seriously man, you put constantly in italics.

There are lots of abortions, fetuses are discarded, it isn't hard to get your hands on it, any less than getting your hands on circumcised foreskin. And there is a market for it, no matter how small.

I believe a BBC article and statements from Korean officials before I believe some naive fool with a Stalin avi who has never even been to Asia.

You seem like the kind of guy that would be surprised that cats are commonly eaten. "No way! propaganda bullshyt!!"

Step out into the real world mate. Ignorance never helped anyone.

[Koba Junior]

Don't be a condescending prick, it doesn't make you look smarter.

Where did anyone claim this is done constantly?

Seriously man, you put constantly in italics.

There are lots of abortions, fetuses are discarded, it isn't hard to get your hands on it, any less than getting your hands on circumcised foreskin. And there is a market for it, no matter how small.

I believe a BBC article and statements from Korean officials before I believe some naive fool with a Stalin avi who has never even been to Asia.

You seem like the kind of guy that would be surprised that cats are commonly eaten. "No way! propaganda bullshyt!!"

Step out into the real world mate.

So not only have you been to Asia, have direct experience with something at least as awful as feeding people ground up human fetus, and implicitly trust the BBC and its affiliates, but my avatar makes my skepticism invalid. In any case, exactly how easy is it to obtain discarded fetuses and foreskin? You seem to have a lot of knowledge about acquiring those particular things, so I'm left to assume you're fairly experienced. That being said, I'm still skeptical that powdered baby made it into pills, and that this has only ever occurred in China. Given the bureaucratic red tape that permeates Chinese business, even with market reforms, I imagine it's much more difficult to obtain and then proceed to make a fine powder out of aborted fetuses than it would be in the United States of America or other Western countries. Even if it isn't more difficult, consider that it is at least as difficult; what's not so difficult is conjuring an incredible story that readers and viewers won't bother to verify.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Anybody who assumes this isn't true because it seems outlandish has their head in the ground. Does anyone seriously think that mafiosos in China can't bribe abortion clinics in rural or poorly run parts of the country? Does anybody really think it is beyond human morality to do such a thing? One would have to be incredibly naive to believe those things.

[The Young Pioneer]

It's propaganda, but it's also plausible.

Many vaccinations are derived from aborted fetuses (hep-A, rubella, rabies, etc).***

Why can no one believe the same is done with a Chinese medication? Though, you of course don't see Western media shouting, "US DOCTORS INJECT DEAD BABIES INTO AMERICA'S CHILDREN!" so it's a double standard and probably a gross exagerration.



***Because someone's bound to demand it of me:

Two different strains of human diploid cell cultures made from fetuses have been used extensively for vaccine production for decades. One was developed in the United States in 1961 (called WI-38) and the other in the United Kingdom in 1966 (called MRC-5).

WI-38 came from lung cells from a female fetus of 3-months gestation and MRC-5 was developed from lung cells from a 14-week-old male fetus. Both fetuses were intentionally aborted, but neither was aborted for the purpose of obtaining diploid cells. The fetal tissues that eventually became WI-38 and the MRC-5 cell cultures were removed from fetuses that were dead. The cellular biologists who made the cell cultures did not induce the abortions...

The WI-38 and MRC-5 cell cultures have been used to prepare hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines, preventing millions of cases of rubella, hepatitis A, varicella and rabies.

Hayflick L, Moorhead PS (1961). The serial cultivation of human diploid cell strains. Experimental Cell Research 25:585-621.
Hayflick L (1965). The limited in vitro lifetime of human diploid cell strains. Experimental Cell Research 37:614-36.
Jacobs JP, Jones CM, Baille JP (1970). Characteristics of a human diploid cell designated MRC-5. Nature 227:168-70.

[Koba Junior]

Anybody who assumes this isn't true because it seems outlandish has their head in the ground. Does anyone seriously think that mafiosos in China can't bribe abortion clinics in rural or poorly run parts of the country? Does anybody really think it is beyond human morality to do such a thing? One would have to be incredibly naive to believe those things.

Try to apply Occam's Razor to this frazzled, tangled beard. Why would Chinese mafiosos go to the trouble of bribing abortion clinics for access to aborted fetuses so they can be ground up and put into pills? The evidence for the specific scenario I just described in that question simply doesn't exist. It is also important to consider that this type of atrocity is at least as capable of happening anywhere in the world, but the only thing like it to happen has happened in China alone. Consider how much, much more common sensationalist and downright false news is that mafiosos collecting aborted fetuses to grind up into pills. It's definitely more naive to construct wild explanations out of thin air than to use experience to determine that the story is likely false.

[Koba Junior]

Comrade Pioneer, I think extracting cell strains from fetuses and grinding up whole fetuses and infants into a fine powder are rather far apart in terms of likelihood.

[The Young Pioneer]

Comrade Pioneer, I think extracting cell strains from fetuses and grinding up whole fetuses into a fine powder are rather far apart in terms of likelihood.

I agree, but at the same time, both concern using aborted fetuses ZOMG...for medical purposes...while only one case is sensationalised.

If the West didn't use such vaccines, but China did, I'm sure we'd be seeing a similar article about this. :rolleyes:

[Koba Junior]

It wasn't very long ago that there was a similar story regarding the popularity of Chinese actually cooking and eating aborted fetuses for supposed health benefits. This story was quickly proven to be false. Given everything else that makes the pill story incredibly unlikely, I'd say its extreme similarity to a previous hoax makes a fair case for skepticism.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Try to apply Occam's Razor to this frazzled, tangled beard. Why would Chinese mafiosos go to the trouble of bribing abortion clinics for access to aborted fetuses so they can be ground up and put into pills?

They do it for Money.


It's definitely more naive to construct wild explanations out of thin air than to use experience to determine that the story is likely false.What evidence? There is a black market for highly illegal rhino horn and tiger genitalia coming out of China despite layers of security, so our "experience" shows that traditional Chinese medicine can create markets in scarce ingredients despite numerous legal hurdles. There is also a huge supply of aborted fetuses because of the government-imposed one-child policy, and there is also a massive amount of semi-legitimated corruption undermining the Chinese state. So "Occam's Razor" does not indicate that this story is implausible or "likely false".

[Koba Junior]

They do it for Money.

So there's a lot of money in grinding babies up into a fine powder and selling them in pill-form? Do you know that this is actually happening or are you speculating?


What evidence? There is a black market for highly illegal rhino horn and tiger genitalia coming out of China despite layers of security, so our "experience" shows that traditional Chinese medicine can create markets in scarce ingredients despite numerous legal hurdles.

What part of traditional Chinese medicine calls for powdered baby?


There is also a huge supply of aborted fetuses because of the government-imposed one-child policy ...

I'd be interested in seeing a citation on Chinese abortion rates.


... and there is also a massive amount of semi-legitimated corruption undermining the Chinese state.

Legitimated corruption cannot be unique to China.

[QUOTE[So "Occam's Razor" does not indicate that this story is implausible or "likely false".[/QUOTE]

Actually, yes, it does. I've explained why already: the explanations that make the story plausible are offered without evidence. You say mafiosos get the fetuses, but where is the evidence that this occurs? You seem to have implied powdered baby is a traditional Chinese medicine, but where is the evidence to back that up? And why is it that you've completely ignored that a story almost exactly like this circulated news outlets years ago, only to be disproved? All things considered, given the lack of evidence and plausibility, as well as a precedence for the "medicinal fetus" premise being fabricated, the Razor really does give us the answer: the story is likely bullshit.

[Agent Ducky]

It cites the San Francisco Times... That's not even a real newspaper, guys...

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It cites the San Francisco Times... That's not even a real newspaper, guys...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17980177


S Korea 'to target powdered human flesh capsules'

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60070000/jpg/_60070558_untitled.jpg The capsules containing the powdered flesh were found both in luggage and in the post
South Korea says it will increase customs inspections targeting capsules containing powdered human flesh.
The Korea Customs Service said it had found almost 17,500 of the capsules being smuggled into the country from China since August 2011.
The powdered flesh, which officials said came from dead babies and foetuses, is reportedly thought by some to cure disease and boost stamina.
But officials said the capsules were full of bacteria and a health risk.
"It was confirmed those capsules contain materials harmful to the human body, such as super bacteria. We need to take tougher measures to protect public health," a customs official was quoted as saying by the Korea Times.
Inspections are to be stepped up on shipments of drugs arriving from north-east China, Yonhap news agency reported.
The Dong-a Ilbo newspaper said that capsules were being dyed or switched into boxes of other drugs in a bid to disguise them.
Some of the capsules were found in travellers' luggage and some in the post, customs officials said.
Allegations that human flesh capsules were being trafficked from north-east China into South Korea emerged last year in a South Korean television documentary.
At the time China's Health Ministry said it was investigating the claims raised by the programme.
Ministry spokesman Deng Haihua, quoted at the time in China Daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-08/10/content_13081928.htm), said China had "strict management of disposal of infant and foetal remains as well as placentas".
"Any practice that handles the remains as medical waste is strictly prohibited," the newspaper quoted him as saying.

So there's a lot of money in grinding babies up into a fine powder and selling them in pill-form? Do you know that this is actually happening or are you speculating?


According to the news article, yes there is a market for this. If you have an expert in Chinese medicine claiming that there is no such thing that might be compelling evidence that, assuming this is not a new trend in traditional Chinese medicine, that this is made up. But otherwise, there's no more reason to disbelieve this than to disbelieve that Rhinos are going extinct because of the demand in East Asia for the horn.



What part of traditional Chinese medicine calls for powdered baby?
Well, I doubt either of us are experts in traditional Chinese medicine. Also, traditional Chinese medicine is a broad practice with a long tradition, I doubt there are many people out there who know its full breadth.



I'd be interested in seeing a citation on Chinese abortion rates.
The fact that the one-child policy is imposed on the population despite the fact that most women are pregnant more than once in their lifetime should not make it a huge leap to presume that abortion rates in China are fairly high.



Legitimated corruption cannot be unique to China.
Um, of course it isn't, what's your point?



Actually, yes, it does. I've explained why already: the explanations that make the story plausible are offered without evidence. You say mafiosos get the fetuses, but where is the evidence that this occurs? You seem to have implied powdered baby is a traditional Chinese medicine, but where is the evidence to back that up? And why is it that you've completely ignored that a story almost exactly like this circulated news outlets years ago, only to be disproved? All things considered, given the lack of evidence and plausibility, as well as a precedence for the "medicinal fetus" premise being fabricated, the Razor really does give us the answer: the story is likely bullshit.Your explanations for why the story isn't plausible has even less evidence. I don't know anything about this "fake story", but I did see articles about this particular case (like the one I put up).

[Zealot]

This isn't actually that hard to believe. Why? Because it's even common in places such as New Zealand (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10780820), Australia (http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity/mad-men-tv-series-star-january-jones-says-all-mothers-should-try-eating-their-placentas/story-fn907478-1226309881801) and Britain (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2090607/Would-pill-placenta-Midwife-sells-babies-afterbirth-new-mothers.html) and was apparently "the brainchild of American Lynnea Shrief who formed the Independent Placenta Encapsulation Network two years ago." The only difference in these countries is that they're made out of placenta, not aborted babies, but as far as I can see it seems to be for the same purpose.

[Koba Junior]

According to the news article, yes there is a market for this. If you have an expert in Chinese medicine claiming that there is no such thing that might be compelling evidence that, assuming this is not a new trend in traditional Chinese medicine, that this is made up. But otherwise, there's no more reason to disbelieve this than to disbelieve that Rhinos are going extinct because of the demand in East Asia for the horn.

The evidence against the likelihood of this story comes from the debunking of an extremely similar myth that was perpetuated by news outlets regarding Chinese actually cooking up fetuses to eat them. There is a precedence for this kind of story being fraudulent.

Greene, Thomas. "Dead-Baby Muncher Pics Spawn Police Inquiry." The Register. 22 February 2001.

Greene, Thomas. "Online Baby Muncher Is an Artist." The Register. 23 February 2001.

Laurance, Jeremy. "British Police Discover More Child Abuse Horror on Internet." The Independent. 21 February 2001.

Lowy, Joan. "Reports of Fetus Sales Alarm Congressman." Denver Rocky Mountain News. 4 May 1995 (p. A49).

Sharma, Yojana. "Chinese Trade in Human Foetuses for Consumption Is Uncovered." The Daily Telegraph. 13 April 1995 (International, p. 14.)


Well, I doubt either of us are experts in traditional Chinese medicine. Also, traditional Chinese medicine is a broad practice with a long tradition, I doubt there are many people out there who know its full breadth.I'd think consuming human fetuses and infants would be something that fell out of favor around the same time applying mercury to every ailment did.


The fact that the one-child policy is imposed on the population despite the fact that most women are pregnant more than once in their lifetime should not make it a huge leap to presume that abortion rates in China are fairly high.So you say without any citation. Who's to say adoption or foster care does not occur in China? And how can you be sure that effective contraception is not practiced across the board? If abortion rates are so high that the disposed fetuses can be bought by criminals, it should be simple to find some information that confirms the idea.


Um, of course it isn't, what's your point?Why is this story unique to China? Why isn't something like this happening anywhere else?


Your explanations for why the story isn't plausible has even less evidence. I don't know anything about this "fake story", but I did see articles about this particular case (like the one I put up).See above.

[Igor]

I can see why youd say that, but i seriously dont think we can rule out the possibility that this is true. there are some really fucked up people, and awful superstitions are becoming very widespread in the world at the moment

i'm ruling everything out before i see a source that isn't daily fucking mail. i could provide more reliable news by generating random words.

[Prometeo liberado]

I can not believe this "commies eating babies" thing has found new life again. This red-baiting nonsense has been around since the White Armies used it during the civil war. I'm anxious to see how long it will take to read the "evidence" that international Asian Jewry is also behind this. Killing me!! Where is a TrotskistMarx post when you need it?

[gorillafuck]

so the sources are the Daily Mail which is constantly wrong, and the San Francisco Times which is not a newspaper that exists?

seems legit.

[28350]

devils advocate: what is wrong with the industrial production of fetal/baby corpse pills (aside from the industrial production part)?

[REDSOX]

If this story is true and sometimes the bourgeois press can tell the truth, then it reminds me of the 1973 film Soylent green where humans end up eating other humans.

[Igor]

devils advocate: what is wrong with the industrial production of fetal/baby corpse pills (aside from the industrial production part)?

uhh what? why would the "industrial production part" be wrong?

[ellipsis]

I've seen these types of stories frequently, archetypal racist propaganda, more than likely.

[Igor]

I've seen these types of stories frequently, archetypal racist propaganda, more than likely.

this. eating babies is pretty much the oldest and worst cliche in the otherize your enemy textbook

[MotherCossack]

i might leave rev-left........
you lot should read your posts!
here is the thing...... you sound like a bunch of narrow minded, know-it all, mean-spirited,
unpleasant, self-satisfied schoolboys and girls.
And if we were getting stuff done it might be ok.... but we are not...
we are just gossiping and *****ing [am i reading all the worst threads?]
Sorry if you do not like it... you could always chuck me out.... but then I might start the revolution without you.

about the babies........
sick idea.... we are as bad.[in this general area of the world] .. probably.....
these are depraved and unnatural times!

[MotherCossack]

shit that might be a bit harsh.... am I in a bad mood....
Sorry!
teenage kids are seriously mean and nasty and hard work...
i might sell them .

[ridethejetski]

I've seen these types of stories frequently, archetypal racist propaganda, more than likely.

So the BBC just randomly decides to pump out 'racist propaganda' for what reason?

Why would they need to demonise South Korea?

I mean, if this was just the Daily Mail i'd put it down to their sloppy journalism (see the Egyptian sex with dead people nonsense), but while the BBC may sometimes be bias, I see no reason why they would be so here...

[Koba Junior]

Why would they need to demonise South Korea?

They're demonizing China, actually. And you don't need to establish a motive when evidence of and precedence for the act is already apparent.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The evidence against the likelihood of this story comes from the debunking of an extremely similar myth that was perpetuated by news outlets regarding Chinese actually cooking up fetuses to eat them. There is a precedence for this kind of story being fraudulent.

Greene, Thomas. "Dead-Baby Muncher Pics Spawn Police Inquiry." The Register. 22 February 2001.

Greene, Thomas. "Online Baby Muncher Is an Artist." The Register. 23 February 2001.

Laurance, Jeremy. "British Police Discover More Child Abuse Horror on Internet." The Independent. 21 February 2001.

Lowy, Joan. "Reports of Fetus Sales Alarm Congressman." Denver Rocky Mountain News. 4 May 1995 (p. A49).

Sharma, Yojana. "Chinese Trade in Human Foetuses for Consumption Is Uncovered." The Daily Telegraph. 13 April 1995 (International, p. 14.)


Except this isn't a story about the Chinese cooking them up and eating them, this is a story about pills being exported to South Korea for profit. It's the South Koreans eating the babies, according to this story, why would the South Korean government slander their own people by bringing these up if the allegations are false? The Chinese are just exploiting an economic opportunity.



I'd think consuming human fetuses and infants would be something that fell out of favor around the same time applying mercury to every ailment did.
Um, well there's the fact that mercury is poisonous ...



So you say without any citation. Who's to say adoption or foster care does not occur in China? And how can you be sure that effective contraception is not practiced across the board? If abortion rates are so high that the disposed fetuses can be bought by criminals, it should be simple to find some information that confirms the idea.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1336466/Chinese-region-must-conduct-20000-abortions.html

Also Wikipedia, china on abortions and 1 child policy. I didn't want to go looking for citations because i thought the high incidence of abortion was common knowledge, as well as common sense based on the obvious limits of instituting a 1 child policy in a country of 1.3 billion people.


Why is this story unique to China? Why isn't something like this happening anywhere else?

See above.What about this story is "unique to China" other than the fact that it is some kind of strange alternative medicine? In New Jersey recently, a large number of rabbis and elected officials were arrested in an organ trading ring recently (http://www.theage.com.au/world/organ-trafficking-rabbis-arrested-over-massive-crime-ring-20090724-dv50.html). Bourgeois economics and scarcity of health care creates space for illegal markets, since China is a Capitalist country in addition to being a corrupt and autocratic republic I don't see why anybody is so surprised that this kind of thing could go on.


so the sources are the Daily Mail which is constantly wrong, and the San Francisco Times which is not a newspaper that exists?

seems legit.

You didn't notice the fact that I put up a BBC article on this, citing the South Korean government and saying that China's Health Ministry was looking into it???


I've seen these types of stories frequently, archetypal racist propaganda, more than likely.

That's too easy. There are false allegations of abusive labor conditions out there, it does not discredit actual allegations of labor abuse. There are false allegations of brutality against American and other Imperialistic armies, that doesn't discredit actual allegations of Imperialist brutality. Likewise, old historical orientalist lies doesn't mean we should then have naive misconceptions of Chinese politics that blinds us to corruption and autocracy there. Is it outside the realm of possibility? Our modern perspective shows that people of all nationalities can commit atrocities.

[Koba Junior]

Except this isn't a story about the Chinese cooking them up and eating them, this is a story about pills being exported to South Korea for profit.

An historic moment, this post represents the very first time something I've read has made me "facepalm."


Um, well there's the fact that mercury is poisonous ...

And this would mark the second time it's happened. Mercury was very common in Chinese medicine, comrade.



[/URL][URL]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1336466/Chinese-region-must-conduct-20000-abortions.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1336466/Chinese-region-must-conduct-20000-abortions.html)


A CHINESE county has been ordered to conduct 20,000 abortions and sterilisations ...

Note the wording. Not all 20,000 procedures being conducted are abortions. In total, the abortions and sterilizations being conducted number 20,000, and we can't be sure at all how that is divided among the procedures from this article alone.



What about this story is "unique to China" other than the fact that it is some kind of strange alternative medicine? In New Jersey recently, a large number of rabbis and elected officials were arrested in an organ trading ring recently (http://www.theage.com.au/world/organ-trafficking-rabbis-arrested-over-massive-crime-ring-20090724-dv50.html).

Is organ trading the same as grinding up fetuses and baby corpses whole into a fine powder?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

An historic moment, this post represents the very first time something I've read has made me "facepalm."


Your reasoning abilities leave something to be desired ... "facepalm" is not a rational reply to "these are clearly two distinct cases". Accusing evil Chinese commie bureaucrats of making fetus soup is substantively different than an alleged black market in "alternative medicine" getting uncovered.



And this would mark the second time it's happened. Mercury was very common in Chinese medicine, comrade.
Did I dispute that? I'm merely pointing out why they might have stopped using mercury but not fetuses ... fetuses don't kill you or rot your brains.



Note the wording. Not all 20,000 procedures being conducted are abortions. In total, the abortions and sterilizations being conducted number 20,000, and we can't be sure at all how that is divided among the procedures from this article alone.(1) That's not the only source i mentioned ... i also mentioned wiki

(2) You didn't read the article fully: "Demographers believe that China has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world, with estimates running at up to 80 terminations for each 1,000 live births. In Western Europe, the figure is just 10 abortions per 1,000 births."

(3) Even assuming that ... come on even half of that would be 10,000


Is organ trading the same as grinding up fetuses and baby corpses whole into a fine powder? If you're not resorting to some strange idealistic dogmatism ... yes! Both are ethically dubious industries fueled by a high demand in health care. How are they different? In terms of morality? Grounding up fetuses is actually morally less scummy than organ smuggling as organ smuggling actually is taking organs from people who need it more, taking bad organs or even killing people for their organs. In terms of efficacy? Well, considering there is a black market for tiger penis and rhino horn, scientific efficacy is not always a necessary condition for a black market.

[Rafiq]

How does one determine it is flesh? And with that, whether it is the flesh of a baby, in contrast with perhaps another animal?

[Art Vandelay]

I am just a little confused that communists and materialists would find it so unlikely that capitalists would engage in said activity.

[Doflamingo]

Maybe it was just a dead baby joke that someone took too far.

[Ocean Seal]

How does one determine it is flesh? And with that, whether it is the flesh of a baby, in contrast with perhaps another animal?
Human DNA found in skin cells.

But let us consider two cases.

It is false
Answer:Racist propaganda. Happens all the time, nationalist dickwaving, that is all.

It is true
Answer: Why is using the cells of aborted fetuses any worse than using placental cells? Dead babies I can understand, because they could not make the choice to donate their cells, and this could encourage murder.
But in all seriousness people donate organs. And fetuses which don't have consciousness are somehow worse for dealing with medical problems.

[Koba Junior]

Your reasoning abilities leave something to be desired ... "facepalm" is not a rational reply to "these are clearly two distinct cases".

It is, however, a response to "these are clearly not alike," when the two cases we're discussing are extremely similar in that they involve the Chinese consuming fetuses and dead babies for their supposed health benefits. That you've ignored this extreme similarity makes me wonder if you're interested in actually debating, rather than "winning."


Accusing evil Chinese commie bureaucrats of making fetus soup is substantively different than an alleged black market in "alternative medicine" getting uncovered.That "alternative medicine" is made of fetuses, as well. And their consumption is done for potential medical benefit. That you've ignored this extreme similarity ... well, I've already explained that.


Did I dispute that? I'm merely pointing out why they might have stopped using mercury but not fetuses ... fetuses don't kill you or rot your brains.... Okay. That changes everything.


(1) That's not the only source i mentioned ... i also mentioned wikiThat's not as impressive as it may have sounded in your head.


(2) You didn't read the article fully: "Demographers believe that China has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world, with estimates running at up to 80 terminations for each 1,000 live births. In Western Europe, the figure is just 10 abortions per 1,000 births."

Why do demographers "believe" that, though? Is that the same as "they have objective evidence that this, in fact, occurs?"

[Sea]

I have some serious doubts on the authenticity of this article. Take a look at the URL of the image on the page.


thumbnail.php?file=Baby_Pill_399585387.jpgThis implies that the image is of the pills in question.

Doing a quick reverse google image search reveals that image is of counterfeit Chinese pills being sold in Nigeria.


In June, Nigeria's drug regulatory authority National Agency for Food And Drug Administration And Control (NAFDAC) had reported about the detention of a large consignment of fake anti-malarial generic pharmaceuticals labelled 'Made in India' which were actually produced in China.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It is, however, a response to "these are clearly not alike," when the two cases we're discussing are extremely similar in that they involve the Chinese consuming fetuses and dead babies for their supposed health benefits. That you've ignored this extreme similarity makes me wonder if you're interested in actually debating, rather than "winning."


... the Chinese aren't consuming them, they are exporting them to other countries and it is these other countries accusing them of exporting it. There is also not an "obvious" target for this to be slander either as the Chinese government is not as of yet directly implicated in it. The Chinese State and South Korean State are at least taking this case seriously enough to investigate it. Thus, the cases are completely different.

This is a Capitalist country with a corruption problem and a huge black market in illegal alternative medicine coming in and out of the country. I grant that this story could well be false, but it's also not so implausible as you are making it out to be.



That's not as impressive as it may have sounded in your head.
... sigh ... I'm not writing an academic paper, if you want a better source use google and I already linked a telegraph article.



Why do demographers "believe" that, though? Is that the same as "they have objective evidence that this, in fact, occurs?"I dunno, write the journalist at the telegraph and ask them that, unfortunately I obviously don't have the benefit of this interview notes. What the wiki article says is that the Chinese state views exact accounts of abortion rates as a state secret so it is hard to get the kinds of statistics which a demographer would claim as scientific, but that does not mean that the demographers are basing it on no evidence at all.

Do you actually have any counter-evidence against the claims of the demographers quoted in the Telegraph? You've given no evidence at all showing a low abortion rate.

[Koba Junior]

... the Chinese aren't consuming them, they are exporting them to other countries and it is these other countries accusing them of exporting it. There is also not an "obvious" target for this to be slander, as the Chinese government is not implicated in it. The Chinese State and South Korean State are at least taking this case seriously enough to investigate it. Thus, the cases are completely different.

That's entirely different then.

[/QUOTE]This is a Capitalist country with a corruption problem and a huge black market in illegal alternative medicine coming in and out of the country. I grant that this story could well be false, but it's also not so implausible as you are making it out to be.[/QUOTE]

I think it is as implausible as I've made it sound. That being said, I don't rule out the theoretical possibility of it happening. But, given my experience, it sounds awfully contrived.


... sigh ... I'm not writing an academic paper, if you want a better source use google and I already linked a telegraph article.

I have used Google. That being said, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, here, and assume yours is a valid source. (I'm not trying to make myself sound good or anything; I'm honestly conceding that this could possibly be a valid source.)


I dunno, write the journalist at the telegraph and ask them that, unfortunately I obviously don't have the benefit of this interview notes. Do you actually have any counter-evidence at all?

No. I don't. There is the honest answer to put an end to my petty arguing. What I have is a precedence for this being a lie, but I have no specific evidence that definitely shows that the article is false. This I readily admit, and I apologize for dragging things out to this point.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Fair enough-again, it's more than plausible that this is all made up. The South Koreans could have it completely wrong, it could be "counterfeit" or it could be South Korean propaganda designed to discredit the PRC. Certainly it wouldn't be the first time, as you and others have said, that the consumption of infants was used to demonize an "Other". But because this is an allegation coming out of South Korea and it fits within the broader problem of the black market in illegal forms of alternative Chinese medicine, it does seem less likely to be bullshit than those other cases you mentioned.

Who knows? If this is a real case then it will presumably be taken by the ROKorea to the Chinese government and we can see what they have to say about it.

[Misanthrope]

I don't see the exigency for 'ground up babies'. Just doesn't seem practical and it's mudslinging the term, baby killer.

[#FF0000]

if you read this headline and thought "oh my what an interesting article i will read this" instead of "wow i know already this is bullshit" then you are literally fuckin braindead.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

First it was tiger wine, now this. Strange times we're in.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

if you read this headline and thought "oh my what an interesting article i will read this" instead of "wow i know already this is bullshit" then you are literally fuckin braindead.

Sigh ... either (a) the South Korean government made an error in their investigation, (b) the South Korean government uncovered a counterfeit alternative medicine smuggling ring, (c) the South Korean government uncovered an actual alternative medicine smuggling ring, or (d) the South Korean government is trying to smear some particular group in the PRC. In all of these situations, bacteria-filled pills were being hawked off to credulous consumers in South Korea, potentially to make them "sick", even if the allegations are ultimately false. But this story isn't "bullshit". If it was "Bullshit" then the Chinese ministry of health would have dismissed it outright. It's not "bullshit" that South Koreans are being sold pills which could make them sick because they are credulous enough to believe someone hawking less-than-effective alternative medicine. So regardless of whether or not the allegations by South Korea are false, it is worth investigating. As much as anything else, it is a serious problem if South Korea has "Braindead" customs agents who are crazy enough to concoct such a story.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/05/south-koreans-confiscated-pills-human-remains.html


EOUL and BEIJING — South Korean customs said it had confiscated more than 17,000 “health” capsules smuggled from China that contain human flesh, most likely extracted from aborted fetuses or stillborn babies. The Chinese Ministry of Health said Tuesday it had been investigating allegations that capsules were being manufactured from human remains but had found no evidence.
The South Korean customs agency said pills had been smuggled into the country through parcels and luggage carried from China. The pills were composed of "ground stillborn fetus or babies that had been cut into small pieces and dried in gas ranges for two days, then made into powders and encapsulated," the report said.
"Flesh pills have been continuously smuggled into [South Korea], camouflaged as health tonics," the statement said. The pills came mostly from cities in northeastern China: Yanji, Jilin, Qingdao and Tianjin.
The South Korean government has been investigating capsules made of human flesh since last year when a monthly magazine released a lengthy report about the use of dead infants in traditional medicines. The reports said the infants and fetuses were purchased illegally from hospitals. Forensic tests on pills marketed as “infant capsule” and “fetus powder” found a 99.7% match with human tissue, South Korean reports said.
Among some traditional healers in South Korea and China, fetuses and particularly placenta are believed to have medicinal properties.
"Human flesh pills are similar to a bizarre invigorate-seeking culture where people search for items such as seal's genitals and bear gall bladder in hopes for boosting one's stamina," Ha Il-hyun, a doctor at Seoul's Konkuk University Hospital, told the newspaper Chosun Ilbo. "If there's anyone who claims he benefited from the pill, it would only be a placebo effect."
The New China News Agency on Tuesday quoted a Health Ministry spokesman, Deng Haihua, saying that "China has strict rules on the disposal of the remains of dead infants, aborted fetuses and placentas, which are categorized as human remains and banned from being disposed of as medical waste."
"Medical institutions and their staff are forbidden to trade human remains, including placentas," the report added.
So yeah, maybe the South Korean police messed up in their investigation or are trying to smear China, but it's still worth posting and giving more thoughtful analysis than you have.


Edit-apparently the Vietnamese Health Ministry has "literally fuckin braindead" people running it :rolleyes: (your words not mine of course), that in of itself is a news story ...
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/society/22177/vietnam-looks-for--powdered-fetus-pills--from-china.html
http://vietnamnews.vnagency.com.vn/social-issues/224528/ministry-cracks-down-on-banned-%E2%80%9Chuman-flesh%E2%80%9D-pills.html

Ministry cracks down on banned "human flesh" pills
Ha Noi — The Drug Administration of Viet Nam under the Ministry of Health has affirmed that licence registration, production, import and circulation of "human flesh" pills are not allowed in Viet Nam.
The health ministry also asked provincial health and market watch departments and police to co-ordinate closely with one another to detect the pills made from human foetuses or deceased infants if they appear in Vietnamese markets. The Administration warned that any organisation or individual found in violation of the regulation would be strictly punished.
The department urged people not to buy, sell or use pills that do not clearly indicate where they were made. People should report ambiguous pills immediately to relevant agencies.
The announcement came after South Korean media reported that Seoul customs authorities had seized thousands of pills from China that used the dried-up remains of dead infants or human foetuses as the main ingredient. These capsules are being sold as a medicinal ‘cure-all'.
A test from the national customs office and the institute of scientific investigation in South Korea showed that the content of the pills was 99.7 per cent human remains, the TV programme said. — VNS

[Robocommie]

I just want to point out that in the 19th century people were horrified about the "rampant" white slavery crisis, and that in the 1980's people were concerned about widespread Satanic cults and ritual abuse.

Moral panic isn't new and it also affects governments.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I just want to point out that in the 19th century people were horrified about the "rampant" white slavery crisis, and that in the 1980's people were concerned about widespread Satanic cults and ritual abuse.

Moral panic isn't new and it also affects governments.

That is certainly true. It would still leave the question however of (1) what were the pills made of, (2) whether they posed a health risk, (3) how forensic evidence was either misread or faked by South Korean authorities (and if faked then why) and (4) how a false health scare became an international issue. So even if the allegations are a false panic it raises interesting questions of how this panic managed to spread (none of which has been rationally accounted for in any of the dismissals of the story)


you're stupid dude, deal with it

Are you just an offensive little cyber troll or do you have an argument? I tried to respond to you rationally and this is all you can come up with? Name-calling isn't a sign of intelligence or reason you know.

[Yazman]

Moderator action:

I've fucking had it with the flaming and spam in this thread.

I've cleaned up the shit and the next post I see that doesn't contribute to the subject matter in a meaningful way, or includes insults, is going to result in an infraction.

You've all been warned!