Human nature.

[OnlyCommunistYouKnow]

I constantly get the argument that communism goes against human nature, whatever that is. According to them, everybody is a greedy asshole. Does anyone have a good response to get them to stop using that argument.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

There is no human nature beyond fucking, eating, and dying.

For the vast majority of our history we, as a species, lived primarily in egalitarian hunter-gatherer communities. Following their position that human nature is to be greedy, this wouldn't have been possible.

Greed is a learned personality trait. In a society where greed is nurtured, rewarded, and preferred, greed will be prevalent. The same can be said for altruism, or any other personality trait.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

What is human nature?
Humans who live about let's say 3000 years ago would probably have an entirely different view of human nature than we.
Humans change and so does this human nature.

[Railyon]

There is no human nature beyond fucking, eating, and dying.

Asexuals would disagree with you on that though.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Humans are simultaneously competetive and co-operative depending on the material situation they find themselves in. In capitalism, where individualistic success is lauded, it is obvious why the altruistic nature of humanity doesn't surface as often except in token charitable gestures. Humans learn most of their behaviours as children by copying adults.

This is a video from a relatively credible source explaining some of it:

l7AWnfFRc7g

[Left Leanings]

Appeals to human nature have been used to justify many forms of oppressive practices, and uphold bourgeois control.

For example. Women were once denied an education, cos they were considered to stupid too learn. And they were considered too fragile to work in industry. A good quotation from the film Titanic, said by one of the First Class passengers: "Women and machinery do not mix".

It's a load of bollocks, cos some of our greatest and most educated peeps today, are women. And in the World War II, it was women who kept the factories and public transport system afloat.

And the so-called inherent lack of intelligence of Black people, was used to justify slavery. It was not in their nature to be anything more, it was claimed.

In capitalist, dog-eat-dog society, where people fear unemployment, poverty, homelessness, and where competition is encouraged, and workers are pitted against one another, greed can be the result.

But in a society based on common ownership, co-operation and workers democracy, where the material needs of people are not under threat and are secure, the need for greed and competition will change.

Human nature is not fixed. It is determined and shaped by factors in the economic environment.

[Revolution starts with U]

It's against apple nature to make apple sauce. Who gives a shit?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Asexuals would disagree with you on that though.
Yeah, I thought about that after I posted it.

[SacRedMan]

The human nature of primitive tribes like in Brazil and the human nature of Western civilians is so different there is no general humane nature in my opinion.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

The human nature argument is nonsense and completely arbitrary. If humans were greedy assholes, only looking out for numero uno instead of working together for benefit of the community we lived in, we would have went extinct a long time ago. Some idiots talk as if capitalism has been around since the beginning of time.

[Caj]

Humans are "greedy" in the sense that they follow their perceived self-interests. In class societies, the self-interests of an individual are often shared by the class of which that individual is a member. The liberation of the proletariat (communism) is within the self-interests of each individual proletarian. So saying humans are "greedy" isn't really an argument against communism.

[Q]

It is worthwhile to repeat a blogpost I made a while back (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=1654) that tries to tackle this common question from a different angle:


I'm not going to repeat others, but for the "human nature" argument I want to point out that it is also historically flawed. Capitalism has only existed for the last few centuries. Class society only dates back about 10 000 years. Human existence - that is, our specific species, Homo Sapiens - dates back to about 100 000 years. There is a large body of evidense that during about 90% of our existence we lived in a classless society. Marxists refer to this age as "primitive communism". In fact, the Radical Anthropology Group (http://www.radicalanthropologygroup.org/new/RAG.html), among others, is defending the idea that human existence itself is actually due to the overthrow of the alpha-male system that is seen in other primates, like gorillas. In other words, historically speaking, humanity is a revolutionary species that has lived in a communist social order most of its existence.

Let those silly capitalists answer that!

For the record: The response of bourgeois anthropologists is to completely dodge the question.

[Lobotomy]

the only defining characteristic of human nature is that humans respond to incentives. But even that is not uniquely human.

[Questionable]

Something I haven't seen anyone mention is that, if humans are indeed greedy and self-interested, capitalism actually requires more self-sacrifice than socialism would. A socialist society would attempt to take care of all of its members equally, granting them free healthcare and a job no matter what, whereas with capitalist society, you're disposed of the moment the capitalist no longer requires your work. If people were lazy and not easily motivated, capitalism would fall apart; a society where the proceedings of your labor come back directly to you in the form of social benefits makes more sense for "greedy" people to choose rather than one where you live a precarious existence off of ever-changing paychecks, and no one is there to help you if you can't meet the month's budget.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Humans are simultaneously competetive and co-operative depending on the material situation they find themselves in. In capitalism, where individualistic success is lauded, it is obvious why the altruistic nature of humanity doesn't surface as often except in token charitable gestures. Humans learn most of their behaviours as children by copying adults.

This is a video from a relatively credible source explaining some of it:

l7AWnfFRc7g

This video hit the spot. :thumbup1:

[Marxaveli]

Those RSA videos are good stuff. I like this one here, which sort of explains the some of the coercive psychological tactics the bourgeoise uses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo&feature=relmfu

[moves]

Only stupid people ask the question of human nature in the 21st century, after Marx and Engels' conclusively proved the base determines the superstructure.

And even if you prefer a bourgeois view (you shouldn't) anthropology shows without a shadow of a doubt that there is no such thing as human universals and human nature.

[Lowtech]

I constantly get the argument that communism goes against human nature, whatever that is. According to them, everybody is a greedy asshole. Does anyone have a good response to get them to stop using that argument.

in debate, really you want to address the specific context they are using 'human nature'

the ways human nature has been used by capitalists in my experience follow usually:

1. most humans lack motivation, requiring incentive of money
2. most humans lack autonomy, so they work better as subordinates
3. human nature is not aligned with altruism and therefore not compatible with communism

the best response is to first call out their obvious condescension toward humans as a whole, then to explain people do not require money to understand the merit of their deeds.

examples of this would be the many software developers that contribute to developing open software, linux, etc.

also, humans make due in any economic system they are in out of necessity, so 99% of so-called productivity and motivation attributed to capitalism by capitalists is in actuality simply the robustness of humans' ability to adapt and survive under harsh conditions.