The steps to a fully communist society

[SacRedMan]

Dear Revleft,

These are, I think, the steps to archieve a communist society. Please correct me if something is wrong or if something can't work out.

1. Overthrowing the capitalist system when it is weak with the majority of the people who fully support the revolution.

2. Install a socialist governement to write a new law, reform and repair things etc.

3. Convince and inform people about communism

4. Abolish money, private property, religion etc.

5. Replace the governement with communes

6. Abolish things like nationalities and borders

I know this is very, veeery simplistic, but this is how I think it should be done according to these steps.

What do you think? Are they good? Bad? What should be better? What should be replaced or removed?

Regards,
SacRedMan

[ed miliband]

lemme ask you then, what's your concept of "revolution"? 'cos it seems very much like you think of it as simply a group seizing power on behalf of the working class and instituting changes for them.

there can be no "steps" to communism, it is the real movement which abolishes the present state of things; communism is "the revolution".

[Offbeat]

Step 2 is a no no for me. Government should be by the people - not by a centralised, hierarchical authority. I agree with everything else except the bit about abolishing religion. Maybe religion will naturally disappear over time, but you can't abolish it from people's minds, and there'd have to be some sort of totalitarian state to abolish the practising of organised religion, which isn't what we're after.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Wouldn't it be easier to overthrow the capitalists if you first inform people about communism and not after?

[Left Leanings]

lemme ask you then, what's your concept of "revolution"? 'cos it seems very much like you think of it as simply a group seizing power on behalf of the working class and instituting changes for them.

there can be no "steps" to communism, it is the real movement which abolishes the present state of things; communism is "the revolution".

Yep.

There's a common and fundamental misunderstanding, demonstrated in the OP's post. The failure to appreciate the distinction between insurrection, state control, and revolution.

Insurrection is the act of abolishing the bourgeois and its state machine. Revolution is not state control on behalf of the workers, but workers democracy itself.

[SacRedMan]

communism is "the revolution".

Explain.


lemme ask you then, what's your concept of "revolution"? 'cos it seems very much like you think of it as simply a group seizing power on behalf of the working class and instituting changes for them.

You can say I'm still on a tutorial's level. I'm a 16 years old communist that has read 7 books about and from the subject, so I might have some misinterpretations.

Here's the list of books I've read:
-The Communist Manifesto
-Violence by Slavoj Zizek
-First as tragedy, then as farce by Slavoj Zizek
-Stalin by H. Barbusse
-Trotski by L. Comby
-Marx's in Brussels by Edward De Maesschalck
-Main philosopher's: Karl Marx by Peter Singer

[jookyle]

It's not a good idea to simply list steps that have to followed and assume that this is the way to go about it. Charles Fourier showed us how adhering to a strict and un-moveable plan will fail. Remember Chaos Theory, everything effects everything. As the revolution starts, continues, and gives way to the point where a new society is established we'll encounter situation that we may not for see happening and must adapt the plan to overcome or work with such situations.

[SacRedMan]

It's not a good idea to simply list steps that have to followed and assume that this is the way to go about it. Charles Fourier showed us how adhering to a strict and un-moveable plan will fail. Remember Chaos Theory, everything effects everything. As the revolution starts, continues, and gives way to the point where a new society is established we'll encounter situation that we may not for see happening and must adapt the plan to overcome or work with such situations.

When I typed these steps I also kept in mind there is no way this will be all happening according to plan. Nothing happens like it is on paper.

[Goblin]

why would you abolish religion?

[Bostana]

Explain.

Principles of Communism
By: Karl Marx, and Frederich Engels.


— 1 —
What is Communism?

Communism is the doctrine of the conditions of the liberation of the proletariat.



Might want to read the rest of the principals as well. Here's the link to it:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

[Delenda Carthago]

1. Overthrowing the capitalist system when it is weak with the majority of the people who fully support the revolution.

2. Install a socialist governement to write a new law, reform and repair things etc.

3. Convince and inform people about communism

Revolution is not something revolutionaries do, its something classes do. So you dont do a revolution first and then you inform people that things are changed. You try to convince people to do the revolution. What revolution would it be anyway if people didnt participate anyway? Thats a coup, not a revolution. The point is for people to take their lives in their own hands, not to find a new sheeper to rule them.

[The Αnarchist Tension]

1. Overthrowing the capitalist system when it is weak with the majority of the people who fully support the revolution.

2. Install a socialist governement to write a new law, reform and repair things etc.

3. Convince and inform people about communism

4. Abolish money, private property, religion etc.

5. Replace the governement with communes

6. Abolish things like nationalities and borders

:confused:

-----

Well, yeah - With the exceptions of steps 2 & 6, that is the goal of all communists, but what you should be asking is how do we preform those steps.

[ckaihatsu]

Revolution is not something revolutionaries do, its something classes do. So you dont do a revolution first and then you inform people that things are changed. You try to convince people to do the revolution. What revolution would it be anyway if people didnt participate anyway? Thats a coup, not a revolution. The point is for people to take their lives in their own hands, not to find a new sheeper to rule them.


As with anything impacting, people should know *why* and *what* they're doing, first. We wouldn't advise a kid to just jump into a new car and drive it around just because they can and because the car is brand-new -- there are the larger questions of what is the kid doing, would they be accepted as a driver by the rest of society, are they going somewhere-in-mind, can they control the car, can they afford to use the car, etc.

Politics is like operating machinery because -- at least for revolutionary politics -- it literally *is* about who should be operating machinery, and to what purposes. People should make sure that they understand it's a serious topic and that they're taking on a role in public life by engaging in the discussion and practice of politics.

I make it a point to compartmentalize politics when I'm talking to people I don't know yet because politics is *not* the same as life -- it's *larger* than life and not everyone wants to take on that kind of role for themselves. I think it's only fair to allow people to be not-political if they really don't have the inclination or mindset for it, but once they've shown themselves to be receptive then the gate's open and everything can be brought to the table, so to speak.

So all of that is prelude to echoing what DC said -- people, in their masses, should be the ones doing politics in the direction of revolution. Political movements are larger than any one of us so there are individual limits to its practice, but with the right *numbers* of people doing it it takes on a significance and force that really does change the world.


[7] Syndicalism-Socialism-Communism Transition Diagram

http://postimage.org/image/1bufa71ms/

[ckaihatsu]

[1] History, Macro Micro -- Precision

http://postimage.org/image/34mjeutk4/


[22] History, Macro Micro

http://postimage.org/image/35q8b6o84/

[Q]

1. Overthrowing the capitalist system when it is weak with the majority of the people who fully support the revolution.

3. Convince and inform people about communism
As others have said, this implies minoritarian politics. E.g. a bunch of coupers that simply seize the existing state apparatus or, at best, a clique that seeks to manipulate the masses and con it into power by, most commonly in most conceptions, a mass strike or a variant thereof.

What we need is majoritarian politics; where the class is organised as a class for the political project of overcoming capitalism and founding a truly human society, communism.

In other words: If the working class is to carry out revolution, it has to want to take power.


4. Abolish money, private property, religion etc.

5. Replace the governement with communes

6. Abolish things like nationalities and borders
One does not abolish these things, one has to overcome the need of them. This is what takes some time. Likewise class society will not just cease to exist after the revolution.

[gozai]

:confused:

-----

Well, yeah - With the exceptions of steps 2 & 6, that is the goal of all communists, but what you should be asking is how do we preform those steps.
Is't there a guy with the exact same user name as you, who is banned? Thats pretty weird.

[Q]

Is't there a guy with the exact same user name as you, who is banned? Thats pretty weird.

Read his signature?

[ckaihatsu]

1. Overthrowing the capitalist system when it is weak with the majority of the people who fully support the revolution.

3. Convince and inform people about communism





As others have said, this implies minoritarian politics. E.g. a bunch of coupers that simply seize the existing state apparatus or, at best, a clique that seeks to manipulate the masses and con it into power by, most commonly in most conceptions, a mass strike or a variant thereof.


I don't mean to mince words but #1 could be taken literally and it would be politically legitimate -- there could very well be a case of the bourgeoisie becoming so weakened by its own economic system that the people become fed-up and mass sentiment allows revolutionaries -- whether a large group or a smaller one -- to assume control over the running of the economy. (I'm thinking the conditions circa 2000 before 9/11, which led to a soft coup for the White House.)





What we need is majoritarian politics; where the class is organised as a class for the political project of overcoming capitalism and founding a truly human society, communism.


We shouldn't *encourage* a vanguardist substitutionism, and, in the Internet age, it's probably not even practically possible anyway, which brings us to #3, 'Convince and inform people about communism.'

That said, though, it's a given that not *everyone* is going to be pro-revolution, thereby necessitating *some* degree of substitutionism, and that as long as mass support exists for a proletarian control of the economy, instead of the bourgeois / market system, then the actual carrying out of it need not be a too-involved process for everyone.





In other words: If the working class is to carry out revolution, it has to want to take power.


Or -- possibly -- the working class has to want to *allow* revolution, and to be savvy enough to consistently denounce bourgeois policies and their representatives.





4. Abolish money, private property, religion etc.

5. Replace the governement with communes

6. Abolish things like nationalities and borders





One does not abolish these things, one has to overcome the need of them. This is what takes some time. Likewise class society will not just cease to exist after the revolution.


Objectively the working class doesn't *need* any of those things.

[Threetune]

:confused:

-----

Well, yeah - With the exceptions of steps 2 & 6, that is the goal of all communists, but what you should be asking is how do we preform those steps.

Communism understands that first the working class must seize power in order to enforce its will, whatever that is. This is the first step!

It matters little what speculation or fantasies we may wish to indulge in, without the means to carry through our plans they are just dreams.

“Only he is a Marxist who extends the recognition of the class struggle to the recognition of the dictatorship of the proletariat. That is what constitutes the most profound distinction between the Marxist and the ordinary petty (as well as big) bourgeois. This is the touchstone on which the real understanding and recognition of Marxism should be tested.” V.I. Lenin. Part 3, State and Revolution.

[Angry Young Man]

1. Seize state power in a given country
2. Seize its productive forces
3. Establish industrial democracy
4. Stave off counterrevolution
5. Aid other countries with step 1. Gradually capitalist influences finds itself beseiged.

Then the productive capacity develops exponentially, creating a massive surplus, thereby making administration unnecessary. And we all live happily ever after.

...until the Butlerian Jihad.

[Q]

1. Seize state power in a given country
2. Seize its productive forces
3. Establish industrial democracy
4. Stave off counterrevolution
5. Aid other countries with step 1. Gradually capitalist influences finds itself beseiged.

Then the productive capacity develops exponentially, creating a massive surplus, thereby making administration unnecessary. And we all live happily ever after.

...until the Butlerian Jihad.

Say Syriza comes to power in Greece coming elections. How will you see that happen?

[Angry Young Man]

Hopefully they're ready prepared to take the lead. It is a rag-tag coalition, but hopefully the massive boost in confidence solidifies it.

Truth be told, I don't know for certain. And it seemed to come out of the blue a bit.