affirmative action

[gawkygeek]

ive always seen affirmative action to be the reaction of hundreds of years of persecution, but a great trechary against progress. it has done nothing more than weaken the quality of our schools and workplaces, it creates an enviornment where ppl are judged by race, thats just rediculous

[Urban Rubble]

I'm split on this one. I think it, at this point, but a necessity, but I'm not sure. Hopefully we won't always need it.

[Monty Cantsin]

Giving someone perks for being part of one race/colour is still Racism. So I feel it shouldn’t happen because it still represents the image that we are not equal.

[flayer2]

it has done nothing more than weaken the quality of our schools and workplaces

How, by allowing those "inferior minorities" into the workplace and school systems?


it creates an enviornment where ppl are judged by race, thats just rediculous

Rubbish. The enviroment where people are judged by race already existed before Affirmative action and would still exist if affirmative action was abolished.

Affirmative action means equal opportunity but apparrently you have confused it with quotas. Would you care to comment on the "quota system" used for the amerikan prison population?

[communistbutter]

I agree...racism has existed way before afirmative action...The ideawas made to try and help minorities live a better life...in a largly white controled society...in doing so though it heightened the fact that race is such a big deal without really meaning too...All in All its a good idea with a small negative affect

[(*]

To have equality we must first level the playing field.

Hundreds of years of persecution must be accounted for. Reverse Racism, I think not!
Things still aren't equal now!

Affirmative action should not be around forever of course.
Another way to try and make things more equal would be reparations (I'm not talking about giving checks to people, but invest into the community).

[Eastside Revolt]

I find that affirmative action just gives poor ingnorant white people something to ***** about, reparitions would work much better.

[Se7en]

i've always been against affirmative action.

if i was competing for a job and lost out to a less qualified 'minority' just because they are a 'minority' i would be pretty pissed off. granted, if i am less qualitifed then the 'minority' should get the job regardless. why can't people be judged by their merits rather than their color? i agree that the playing field needs to be leveled, but affirmative action is not an effective way to go about doing it. i never owned slaves, why should i be punished?

[RedAnarchist]

If application forms for jobs did not haev questions about race, it might help people get jobs for their qualifications rather than their skin colour.

[Hampton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 11:08 AM
i've always been against affirmative action.

if i was competing for a job and lost out to a less qualified 'minority' just because they are a 'minority' i would be pretty pissed off. granted, if i am less qualitifed then the 'minority' should get the job regardless. why can't people be judged by their merits rather than their color? i agree that the playing field needs to be leveled, but affirmative action is not an effective way to go about doing it. i never owned slaves, why should i be punished?
Chances are if you are white, which I don't know if you are, you can get another job that pays the same if not more at the next interview. The person of color might not be able to do so because of things like racism. If people could be judged by their merits then we wouldn't need AA, I agree but until then I think a system which gives some help to those who are disadvantaged is a good thing. You can give them all the job training in the world and they can be the most qualified but if that employer is racist the it's all moot.

There are flaws in the system, no doubt, but until something else comes along other than people shouldn't be judged by their skin color, it's needed.

[Se7en]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 05:26 PM
Chances are if you are white, which I don't know if you are, you can get another job that pays the same if not more at the next interview. The person of color might not be able to do so because of things like racism. If people could be judged by their merits then we wouldn't need AA, I agree but until then I think a system which gives some help to those who are disadvantaged is a good thing. You can give them all the job training in the world and they can be the most qualified but if that employer is racist the it's all moot.

There are flaws in the system, no doubt, but until something else comes along other than people shouldn't be judged by their skin color, it's needed.
None of this changes the fact that the 'minority' shouldn't get the job at all because s/he is not qualified for it in the first place.

yes, a system needs to be created that helps the less fortunate but funding for public education and inner city youth programs are much better ways to go about bringing change.

i think our society breeds racism because of the emphasis placed on it. until people lay down their race cards and realize that we're all just human no program can make a significant difference.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I support affirmative action. Racism is far from dead, and without it people of color would be even more underrepresented in good jobs and political positions (need an education for that!) and overrepresented even more in prison.

The criticism that seems most valid is that affirmative action is not class conscious. Many of the African-Americans, for example, getting benefits are members of the aspiring black middle class. They do not really need as much help, as say, the person of color still in the ghetto... still deeply impoverished.

[Hampton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 02:19 PM
yes, a system needs to be created that helps the less fortunate but funding for public education and inner city youth programs are much better ways to go about bringing change.


I can be the most qualified motherfucker in the world going into a job interview but if my skin is darker than the dude next to me I might not get the job because of it. So yea, there should be better funding for schools and better books and better housing and cops that don't profile people but these things aren't happening and until they do something is there in place of it. It's not the best system, it has flaws, but it's needed.

I think you have to address the race problem before it can go away, not by ignoring it, and I don't think that this has been done yet in America. The TRUTH of what's going on isn't shown..when George Bush can go and celebrate the birth of MLK and at the same time push to get affirmative action erased, we're not addressing the problem. Bush isn't addressing the fact that he put 140 something people to death in Texas, most of them were black.


until people lay down their race cards and realize that we're all just human no program can make a significant difference.

Exactly.

[Se7en]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 10:03 PM
I can be the most qualified motherfucker in the world going into a job interview but if my skin is darker than the dude next to me I might not get the job because of it. So yea, there should be better funding for schools and better books and better housing and cops that don't profile people but these things aren't happening and until they do something is there in place of it. It's not the best system, it has flaws, but it's needed.

I think you have to address the race problem before it can go away, not by ignoring it, and I don't think that this has been done yet in America. The TRUTH of what's going on isn't shown..when George Bush can go and celebrate the birth of MLK and at the same time push to get affirmative action erased, we're not addressing the problem. Bush isn't addressing the fact that he put 140 something people to death in Texas, most of them were black.


until people lay down their race cards and realize that we're all just human no program can make a significant difference.

Exactly.
i wasn't suggesting that we ignore the race issue as much as we should be moving on from it. affirmative action feels like we're too busy dragging our feet in the mud when we should be pressing forward.

but perhaps i am too idealistic with regards to this topic.

[jermicide]

Okay, here goes my first post...

Affirmitive Action is a hard subject to sort out. In my father's union it use to be impossible to join the apprenticeship school unless you were a woman or a minority. It made it very hard for whites to get a job. Oh the other hand if you abolish AA it wouldnt solve anything either. I still think there is too much racism. I use to have a white manager at work who would hire mostly whites and never anybody blacks. Then he was transferred out and I had a black manager who hired mostly blacks and never anybody hispanic. I guess my whole point is even though AA is flawed to abolish it wouldnt solve the problem, I think it would somewhat, though definately not completely, regenerate back to the problem we had before AA.

[gawkygeek]

i wasn't pushing for things to be completely put back to the way they were, way back, but rather have a system of blind applications, where race had no place. for a job, there could be only a paper application with essays and such with no question of race involved, and maybe an optional interview. this would of courst work better on the college entry level where the applications are already almost all paper.
i feel that the greatest problem with AA is that its goal was to help the less fortunate, and it was decided that race made one less fortunate which is such a rediculous. the main problem in society is the division between the rich and the poor, closing that gap seems to be a much more important task to me than leveling the races. i think that once the classes are finally equalized ppl will begin to see that all ppl are equal and racism will just fade away.

[Sandino111]

Affirmative action for minorities is needed because the white man has had 200 years of affirmative action in their favor. How can you compare that to about 30 years of affirmative action for minorities. We must scrutinize the history of the United States and we will find that the goverment had affirmative action since the independance of the U.S.
Uncle Sam made sure the white man was the only person that was allowed to accumulate wealth and land. Uncle Sam also protected the white man from being incriminated; minorities were not allowed to testify against a white man.
Those events have led to our current conditions. The white man must give up those privileges he did not earn.

[Saint-Just]

Affirmative action is indespensible in bringing racial equality to society, and it will be for a few more decades. The reality is that in the past (more so) and now employers would discriminate on race when they employed people. Affirmative action ensures equality of outcome between races when it comes to employment. Eventually all races will betreated equally as they all have the same opportunities to reach the same levels of social status.

[gawkygeek]

Affirmative action for minorities is needed because the white man has had 200 years of affirmative action in their favor. How can you compare that to about 30 years of affirmative action for minorities. We must scrutinize the history of the United States and we will find that the goverment had affirmative action since the independance of the U.S.
Uncle Sam made sure the white man was the only person that was allowed to accumulate wealth and land. Uncle Sam also protected the white man from being incriminated; minorities were not allowed to testify against a white man.
Those events have led to our current conditions. The white man must give up those privileges he did not earn.

how can one justify an act of reverse racism in such a way, if the whites of the past were the one's persecuting, how can it be acceptable to make the whites of today pay for their intollerable acts of injustice?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 02:24 AM

Affirmative action for minorities is needed because the white man has had 200 years of affirmative action in their favor. How can you compare that to about 30 years of affirmative action for minorities. We must scrutinize the history of the United States and we will find that the goverment had affirmative action since the independance of the U.S.
Uncle Sam made sure the white man was the only person that was allowed to accumulate wealth and land. Uncle Sam also protected the white man from being incriminated; minorities were not allowed to testify against a white man.
Those events have led to our current conditions. The white man must give up those privileges he did not earn.

how can one justify an act of reverse racism in such a way, if the whites of the past were the one's persecuting, how can it be acceptable to make the whites of today pay for their intollerable acts of injustice?
First off, I don't think there is really such a thing as "reverse-racism" because the difference, to me, is that "racism" has to do with a structural element in society such as segregation, slavery, jim-crow laws, consiously inequal acess to home-loans or residence in certain areas. White people have never been singled out in such away and prevented from aspects of society like.

The KKK are racists because they are trying to enforce a social code which segregates and opresses black people in all aspects of their lives. A white person calling a black a slur means he's a bigot, not necisarily a racist... similarly a black who uses slurs against white people and latinos is a bigot, not necissarily a racist.

Fox news calls the Black panthers a "racist group", but the Black panthers were not trying to systematically make whites live in an inferior position in society, they were fighting against forces which were systematically keeping blacks in an inferior social level... police, the governemt, the courts. So even though they called the white people who ran thoes institutions of black opression, "pigs" or "crackers", they were not trying to opress whites and so they were not rascist.

So on these grounds, I don't believe that we have experienced anything that could be called "reverse-discrimination". for such a concept to exist, then there would have to be laws which specifically prevented whites from living where they wanted to and holding the jobs they wanted and so on... this is not the world people in america live in.

Secondly, how is it that Affermative action programs are specifically punishing whites?

[gawkygeek]

by ur definition of racism and ur claim that reverse racism, racism itself no longer exists because the laws of segregation is gone, but that only takes de jure racism which is a mere fraction of its problem, the real problem that has plauged the country is de facto, ppl are just racist, i usualy avoid using the word "reverse-racism" just because its simply racism, AA doesn't specificly punish whites, but we face the brunt of its negative effects [yeah im white, if u haven't figured that out by now]
i avidly disagree with u, white ppl, call it paranoia but i can feel and see the stares as i walk thru a prodominately black neighborhood, i try not to let it bother me because i understand the problem but it is there, and i feel the problem everytime i fill out an application read through the list of races until i come down past black, hispanic, native american and just go down to white at the bottom, and i know that its going to hinder the application in it's path, because ppl have become obsessed with statistics and not appearing racist, so being white reduces my chances of a job or entry to college.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Black americans are dispraportionately subject to some part of the (in)justice system and and living in working-poor and blue-collar jobs and going to less funded schools than whites, it's not the same ballpark. I'm not saying it's easy or unopressive to be living under this system being a working-poor white, I'm just saying it's a different thing.

[Hampton]

Fox news calls the Black panthers a "racist group", but the Black panthers were not trying to systematically make whites live in an inferior position in society, they were fighting against forces which were systematically keeping blacks in an inferior social level... police, the governemt, the courts. So even though they called the white people who ran thoes institutions of black opression, "pigs" or "crackers", they were not trying to opress whites and so they were not rascist.

Ohhh hoo, if I could come out of your monitor and kiss you I would, beautiful stuff.


On a more serious note, I think people are getting a little paranoid thinking that affirmative action will take every job that you apply for if you're not a minority. There's a dozen reasons why you may not get the job and not one of them may be AA, maybe that person just isn't qualified enough ot that there's another white guy who is more qualified that you are. Or you're an schmuck.

[gawkygeek]

there is a major problem with the idea of AA; it gives the ignorant people a reason to be angry with minorities, beyond all of the actual problems i see with the internal parts of AA. it causes a reason for ppl to shift blame. i think it also adresses the wrong problem, it shouldn't be made to improve the chances of a minority getting a job, it should focus on giving jobs to people that need the job, its not fair that nesecity plays little to no part in getting a job, if a white male needs a job to get by, but there is an equally qualified minority, even if better off, the latter is more likely to get the job. this just doesn't make sense to me.
AA also has a major flaw, it does little to improve a situation of glass ceilings, while the minorities are forcibly hired, there is nothing to push for promotion and with a lack of solution for this, i don't see a very good explanation for the real usefulness of AA

[Soul Rebel]

ahhh-- this issue pisses me off, not because i am against a.a., but because of how people think of it.

it is in no way "reverse discrimination." it is basically a system of "points" made to level the playing field. it is intended to give minorities the same opportunity for jobs and education. it is not to punish whites or to make them loose out. the only people who feel they are being punished are those who feel that their "unearned priviledges" are being threatened.

and it is ridiculous to assume that minorities "are just being given the jobs." this is crap. they are just as qualified but may or may not recieve extra points because they are minorities. you have to realize that without this, whites would continue to get jobs at higher levels even if they are less qualified.

also, aa assigns points on an individual level, not on a group level. it can be a factor when applying to college or a job, but it doesnt have to be. it all depends on the person doing the hiring.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2003, 05:05 AM
there is a major problem with the idea of AA; it gives the ignorant people a reason to be angry with minorities, beyond all of the actual problems i see with the internal parts of AA. it causes a reason for ppl to shift blame. i think it also adresses the wrong problem, it shouldn't be made to improve the chances of a minority getting a job, it should focus on giving jobs to people that need the job, its not fair that nesecity plays little to no part in getting a job, if a white male needs a job to get by, but there is an equally qualified minority, even if better off, the latter is more likely to get the job. this just doesn't make sense to me.
AA also has a major flaw, it does little to improve a situation of glass ceilings, while the minorities are forcibly hired, there is nothing to push for promotion and with a lack of solution for this, i don't see a very good explanation for the real usefulness of AA
Well, politicians do try and scapegoat AA to whites, but that dosn't mean that we should no fight to any attempts to eliminate it. Politicians also scapegoat illegal immigrents and homosexuals, but socialists need to fight against these ideas even when they are coming from fellow working-class people.

In non-revolutionary times, people arn't automatically all going to make revolutionary conclusions about the system or government institutions, they will more likely, take the system for granted and try to make they system do what they want it to do. For example, most people will become reformists and try to change the system by voting for different politicians before becoming actual revolutionaries.

So socialists need to let people know that when the government tells you A and the companies tell you B, there are actually a whole lot of other choices out there.

So this scapegoating of AA is coming at a time when tuition is getting higher, public schools are becoming holding-cells and it is becoming harder and harder for regular people to go or send their kids to a decent school. So a white person is told by politicians that their chances of getting into school is hurt by affermative action rather than the politicians saying "yeah, well we arn't funding stae higher-education as much anymore so we can't hire more good professors and we can't take as many students and it will cost you more for any kind of higher education".

So I think we need to argue that AA is helping to mend inequaleties among races and is helping many more working class students who other wise couldn't go. AA is not the end, but it's a means to easing inequality for many many people and the end goal that we should argue would be that anyone who wants a higher education should be able to and everyone should have the right to get work (i.e. no unemployment).

[Finch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 06:43 AM
Giving someone perks for being part of one race/colour is still Racism. So I feel it shouldn’t happen because it still represents the image that we are not equal.
my thoughts exactly..

a minority might have complained about racism because they were not equal, now caucasians aren't equal to minorities? why don't white people have affirmative action?

it's just reverse racism.

[Saint-Just]

Affirmative action in Britain puts a quote to fill on the number of minorities employed in any particular workplace. Obviously they base this on the size of minorities within any particular area and their skills. In the hospital I work in they employ people who are from African, Asian, Slavic etc. origin and a few partially disabled people but white British people are still in the majority, it reflects society.

I don't see how affirmative action can be pushing too many people out of jobs, although I have not studied the practice.

[Sandino111]

Originally posted by Finch+Dec 13 2003, 02:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Finch @ Dec 13 2003, 02:01 PM)
[email protected] 9 2003, 06:43 AM
Giving someone perks for being part of one race/colour is still Racism. So I feel it shouldn’t happen because it still represents the image that we are not equal.
my thoughts exactly..

a minority might have complained about racism because they were not equal, now caucasians aren&#39;t equal to minorities? why don&#39;t white people have affirmative action?

it&#39;s just reverse racism. [/b]
WHITE PEOPLE HAVE HAD AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN THEIR FAVOR SINCE THE INDEPENDANCE OF THE U.S.&#33; CHECK YOUR HISTORY&#33;

why should whites be punished by something they didn&#39;t do?

The past led to todays current conditions, which led to the accumulation of wealth being passed down from past white generations to todays white generations. In contrast, the minorities didn&#39;t have the same rights as the white man, thus todays minorities inherited nothing from their past relatives.

The White man has had affirmative action in their favor for over 200 years&#33;&#33;&#33;
Uncle sam made sure the white mad accumalted wealth from the hard labor of minorities. It&#39;s time for Uncle sam to make things more balance.
Whites must give up some of that privilige that they didn&#39;t earn&#33;

[cormacobear]

Who&#39;s there to turn it off?

[Umoja]

Even more so, white people do benefit from affirmative action. White women are the prime benefactors of affirmative action.

[Sabocat]

The words "Reverse discrimination" are the cries of racists.

Affirmative Action can not be disgarded in the U&#036; until it is assured that no one will be discriminated against in the hiring, college enrollment, housing etc. processes due to their color, race, gender. I think we all know what the likelyhood of that anytime soon is. <_<

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

As a communist, I feel that housing, college, jobs, etc, should be made available for everyone, paid by the state, thus making affermative action a moot point. I don&#39;t think there is any reason to exclude anyone from these things, period.