The Las Samurai

[Lardlad95]

OK The Film the last Samurai chronicles Japan during the decline of the Samurai.

Now this brings up alot of debate in my mind.

On the onne hand you have the Samurai which was an actual Warrior, which retained the notion of onor and hand to hand combat

On the other hand you had westernization with industrialized combat whnere you didn't even really need to look at your enemy.

Now I personally hate guns, I think they are weapons for cowards, so I'm a little biased and I personally wish that we still had ars in which you faced your enemy not shot him.

Of corse we must remember that the Shogunate was actually a fuedal system which opressed thier people and basically set up an aristocracy.

Then again the west also imposed it's own culture on Japan and basically eradicated it's society.

so whats worse? imperialism, or the Shogunate?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also has anyone seen the movie? was it good?

[Ortega]

It seems like a very interesting move. Hopefully I can see it soon... I wasn't expecting much from a historical movie starring Tom Cruise. Is it any good?

[MysticArcher]

wow, my first post

yeah, it was pretty good, entertaining though not incredibly historically accurate

the Shogunate was a much better system, because even during wars the peasants were treated fairly well, they were recognized as important to society, most of the time anyway, sometimes peasants weren't treated well, but still much better than the constant exploitation of western society

also,imperialism is worse because even under the shogunate peasants were able to revolt more easily

as for the whole guns suck, yeah as a blacksmith I totally agree

[truthaddict11]

im warry of a historical movie starring Tom Cruise as that total crapfest "Far and Away" ( i wish i was far and away from seeing it) was. anyways it looks good, i'll have to see that ROTK and Tim Burton's Big Fish, I am a Burton fan ever since Batman and have heard so much Oscar buzz over his new movie, hopefully it will make up for that disapointment of Planet of The Apes.

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 08:28 PM
wow, my first post

yeah, it was pretty good, entertaining though not incredibly historically accurate

the Shogunate was a much better system, because even during wars the peasants were treated fairly well, they were recognized as important to society, most of the time anyway, sometimes peasants weren't treated well, but still much better than the constant exploitation of western society

also,imperialism is worse because even under the shogunate peasants were able to revolt more easily

as for the whole guns suck, yeah as a blacksmith I totally agree
Hi welcome to the forum.

as its your first post i feel obliged to disagree with you. from what i've read about that time in japan the class system was one of the worst in history. those people who weren't samurai weren't even allowed to have names, they were just called by what their occupation was "porter, fisherman, ect."
in fact the peasants were held in such low esteem that any samurai at any time could kill any peasant for any reason or no reason and there would be absolutely no repricusion. the peasants were restricted as to where they could go, what they could do, and what they could own. they could not own weapons.

like any other person i have to admire the bravery and courage of the samurai. when i was younger i used to be infatuated with them. it started after i read the book SHOGUN. its a fantastic book based on the same true story that this movie is based on. as i got older i began to see the samurai for the ugly tradition that it was. those people have no respect for any human life. their greatest duty is honor and a class pyramid. i remember one story i heard of samurai- a head samurai was trying to climb up a cliff face, the others were standing at the top. the ones at the top threw down a rope. the leader at the bottom didn't see the rope and couldn't hear the screams over the crashing waves. all the sudden two samurai at the top were ordered to dive over the cliff yelling 'rope' so the one climbing would hear. they did it of course and the leading samurai was saved. also the tradition of suicide is alarming. loyalty and sacrifice are noble traits but the samurai took it much to far, bordering stupidity and a loathing of human life.

i also respect the great deal of skill that is required to be an effective swordsman. on the other hand, you have to realize the psychological effect guns had. since the peasants were never allowed to have any weapons they were always completely defenseless against the oppression of their ruling lords. it is very difficult to defend against a samurai with a razor sharp katana, especially when your not trained. when guns came to japan the fight became equalized. if a peasant had a gun, the samurai was now the one defenseless. i would say that the peasants gained the ability to revolt when westerners brought the guns to japan. guns ruined the 'elitism; of fighting, though they also destroyed the art. fair trade in my opinion.

[MysticArcher]

no, peasants had weapons, usually not the best, but they did have weapons
in the 18th century the shogun confiscated all weapons owned by non samurai, supposedly to make nails for a giant wooden statue of Buddha, but before that (especially in the 100 years of civil war between 1550 and 1650 I think) weapons were pretty much everywhere since so many samurai died on the battlefield, peasants would just take their stuff
yeah, the class system did suck, but I don't think the peasants were randomly killed, at least way less than in Europe, peasants in Japan were recognized as a necessary resource, if nothing else

all guns did was destroy the values of the samurai class, the noble values, not the abuses of power

as for the whole defending yourself against a skilled swordsman, the peasants had spears most about twice the length of a katana, which didn't level the field completely, but it meant that many peasants could fight a few samurai and have a chance

[The Children of the Revolution]

Japanese culture is fascinating; I wish I could have studied it at school. Instead, we got "Nazi Germany" over and over again. Which was a little tedious - there's only so much Hitler you can handle.

Both 'the Shoganate' AND 'Imperialism' were class ridden, oppressive systems. But of the two I prefer the sword of the samurai to the cannon of the West. Bear in mind though that guns were fairly recent in the West too - before that it was broadswords, axes, pikes, crossbows etc. Much more fun.

Sodding guns.

(LardLad95, what is your opinion of archers? British Longbowmen? Were they "cowards"?)

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Alejandro C+Dec 9 2003, 06:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alejandro C @ Dec 9 2003, 06:10 AM)
[email protected] 8 2003, 08:28 PM
wow, my first post

yeah, it was pretty good, entertaining though not incredibly historically accurate

the Shogunate was a much better system, because even during wars the peasants were treated fairly well, they were recognized as important to society, most of the time anyway, sometimes peasants weren&#39;t treated well, but still much better than the constant exploitation of western society

also,imperialism is worse because even under the shogunate peasants were able to revolt more easily

as for the whole guns suck, yeah as a blacksmith I totally agree
Hi welcome to the forum.

as its your first post i feel obliged to disagree with you. from what i&#39;ve read about that time in japan the class system was one of the worst in history. those people who weren&#39;t samurai weren&#39;t even allowed to have names, they were just called by what their occupation was "porter, fisherman, ect."
in fact the peasants were held in such low esteem that any samurai at any time could kill any peasant for any reason or no reason and there would be absolutely no repricusion. the peasants were restricted as to where they could go, what they could do, and what they could own. they could not own weapons.

like any other person i have to admire the bravery and courage of the samurai. when i was younger i used to be infatuated with them. it started after i read the book SHOGUN. its a fantastic book based on the same true story that this movie is based on. as i got older i began to see the samurai for the ugly tradition that it was. those people have no respect for any human life. their greatest duty is honor and a class pyramid. i remember one story i heard of samurai- a head samurai was trying to climb up a cliff face, the others were standing at the top. the ones at the top threw down a rope. the leader at the bottom didn&#39;t see the rope and couldn&#39;t hear the screams over the crashing waves. all the sudden two samurai at the top were ordered to dive over the cliff yelling &#39;rope&#39; so the one climbing would hear. they did it of course and the leading samurai was saved. also the tradition of suicide is alarming. loyalty and sacrifice are noble traits but the samurai took it much to far, bordering stupidity and a loathing of human life.

i also respect the great deal of skill that is required to be an effective swordsman. on the other hand, you have to realize the psychological effect guns had. since the peasants were never allowed to have any weapons they were always completely defenseless against the oppression of their ruling lords. it is very difficult to defend against a samurai with a razor sharp katana, especially when your not trained. when guns came to japan the fight became equalized. if a peasant had a gun, the samurai was now the one defenseless. i would say that the peasants gained the ability to revolt when westerners brought the guns to japan. guns ruined the &#39;elitism; of fighting, though they also destroyed the art. fair trade in my opinion. [/b]
I have to agree and disagree.

1. Guns in the hands of peasants allowed them to revolt, however guns also took away the art of fighting and made war alot less honorable.

2. This was the wests chance to turn Japan into a new china. The west ahs fucked over asia time and time again just like they did with africa and south america

so it was at most a mixed blessing that the westerners came

[Rastafari]

wow LardLad95, it&#39;s great to see you back.
I know nothing about this, so I&#39;ll say Mononoke Hime

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 06:46 PM

I have to agree and disagree.

1. Guns in the hands of peasants allowed them to revolt, however guns also took away the art of fighting and made war alot less honorable.

2. This was the wests chance to turn Japan into a new china. The west ahs fucked over asia time and time again just like they did with africa and south america

so it was at most a mixed blessing that the westerners came
I think the west has fucked up japan without giving it much. The culture is japan right now seems very ugly to me. kids are competing for grades in 2nd grade, teen suicides are really high. they have such a high societal pressure that most people become slaves to success. sure they are the most technologically advanced country but.. the people are like robots. its ten times worse than america in destroying youth and individuality. people are forced to conform and work their asses off to become heads of corporations only to realize once they are the heads they have wasted their whole life on business. just a couple of months ago a top exec in one of their car companies (hyundai?) killed himself and it was the fourth exec in a year to do so at that company. all this in the name of westernization. and japanese culture used to be so beautiful..

lardlad-have you heard the talib song about japan. damned if i can remember the name of it but i remember some of the lyrics-

all japanese look pretty
and given me more love than hello kitty

everyone&#39;s eating sea weed
me too but when i see weed
i&#39;m smokin
nah just jokin

or something like- do you know the name? i lost it

[truthaddict11]

just saw the movie, the guns have nothing to do with peasant revolts. the story is a former Civil War hero(Tom Cruise) and someone involved with crusades against the Native Americans (something he does regret) is recruited by the Empereor of Japan to modernize his military with guns, the Samurai&#39;s are upset about this turn of Japan away from its traditional values. Well during a battle with some Samurai, the soilder is taken prisoner and into a Samurai villiage, here he learns the way of the Samurai and becomes one, i wont go into much detail about this because i dont want to ruin the movie. Well the Samurai end up in a big battle with the Imperial Army of Japan, this is the climax of the movie. It was a really good movie overall one of the better releases of the year.

[Al Creed]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 09:04 PM
Now I personally hate guns, I think they are weapons for cowards, so I&#39;m a little biased and I personally wish that we still had ars in which you faced your enemy not shot him.

Of corse we must remember that the Shogunate was actually a fuedal system which opressed thier people and basically set up an aristocracy.

Then again the west also imposed it&#39;s own culture on Japan and basically eradicated it&#39;s society.

so whats worse? imperialism, or the Shogunate?
I too feel the same way about guns. They are coward weapons, lazy weapons too.

Id rather sympathize with the Shogunate than Westernization, because the Shogunate did have honour. Im sure, if the West kept it&#39;s damn nose out of Japan, eventually the Shogunate would have erroded, but not as tragic as westernization stamping it into the ground.

I want to see this movie SOO much. Im going to see it tomorrow, by myself, so no one interrupts me (yes, I go to movies by myself:P).

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 12:59 AM
wow LardLad95, it&#39;s great to see you back.
I know nothing about this, so I&#39;ll say Mononoke Hime
kweli had A song about japan? tell me what it is

i plan to move to japan, especially now that i&#39;m nichiren shu

i heard it was very conformist but anything seems better than the US for righ now.

My mom really enjoyed it there so I suppose I will too.

I had no idea about the suicide thing though

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 06:18 PM
kweli had A song about japan? tell me what it is


i can&#39;t remember the name. i did just remember the chorus is something like- number one, ichi ban. maybe thats the title. couldn&#39;t find it on kazaa though, and thats where i got it in the first place

[New Tolerance]

Guns has made battles less honorable.

However, aren&#39;t guns more humane than swords or other weapons? Since it is much quicker to die when you get shot in the head (and you don&#39;t have the time to feel much pain), rather than being quartered by swords and you have to literally die from the pain and bleeding.

[MysticArcher]

no, stabs and slashes are generally better since:

you can defend yourself, if you don&#39;t get hit you won&#39;t have a problem and it&#39;s easier to stop a sword than a bullet

bullets have to be removed, and sometimes they shater, or break/shatter bones

very rarely, especially with the inaccuracy of guns at first, was anyone shot in the head, more often it was a painful gut shot

lardlad95 nichiren shu
I&#39;m not familiar with that one, though I am generally familiar with Nichiren Buddhism, could you explain a little about it?

[Se7en]

regardless of class systems and historical accuracy...the movie was brilliant. BEAUTIFUL cinematography and a moving soundtrack. see it.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 06:25 AM
no, stabs and slashes are generally better since:

you can defend yourself, if you don&#39;t get hit you won&#39;t have a problem and it&#39;s easier to stop a sword than a bullet

bullets have to be removed, and sometimes they shater, or break/shatter bones

very rarely, especially with the inaccuracy of guns at first, was anyone shot in the head, more often it was a painful gut shot

lardlad95 nichiren shu
I&#39;m not familiar with that one, though I am generally familiar with Nichiren Buddhism, could you explain a little about it?
Nicheren Shu was really the first school of Nicheren Buddhism....the differences are minimal

There are differences in the words of some praers, the names of rituals may be different

Also we say "Namu Myoho Renge Kyo"

some others say "Nam Myoho renge kyo"

[hazard]

so I went out and about on friday and ended up seeing this movie

almost against my better judgement

turned out to be allright

sort of liked its portrayal as a transition from the past into modern times

thought the fight scenes could have been choreographed a little better

liked the ninjas

tom cruise, I mean, whats with this bullshit of doing two and a half hour long movies? is he trying to impress nicole or something? stick to flying fighter jets and pouring drinks.

[truthaddict11]

i thought the fights were brilliant, those were real samurai fighting and those were real bullets fired and hit people (with padding of course). I dont know how doing 2 1/2 hour movies is trying to impress Nicole Kidman :rolleyes: .

[hazard]

first of all, muskets didnt fire bullets. so I don&#39;t see how real bullets could be used.

second of all, if you meant by bullet musket "balls" ( for lack of a better term ), they are highly innacurate and very unpredictable so I don&#39;t see how they could, or why they would, have decided to use the real thing for a movie such as this. do you mean like "tomb raider 2" - they&#39;re "really" flying? they weren&#39;t. they were really falling through the air. sorta like in seinfeld when that dude took a swan dive onto george&#39;s car. remmeber the episode with pig man? " I think I saw a pig man&#33; A pig man&#33; "

Die, die, die pig die&#33;

additionally, cruise must have a problem if he isn&#39;t trying to win back nicole&#39;s heart. I mean come on. maybe the duration of the films might prove his endurance or ability to act for prolonged periods of time, albeit acting badly for a long time doesn&#39;t mean much more than acting badly for a short period of time. not that nicole is much better of an actor or anything like that. besides Batman Forever she isn&#39;t really much more than a summary of her appearance.

[truthaddict11]

it was directed by the same guy who directed Glory, Edward Zwick, he is well known for his desire for realism in his films. and for the record no i did not see Tomb Raider 2 nor do i watch Seinfield.

[truthaddict11]

here is a quote from a Movie magazine i get this is from a feature on the movie
"They shot us with hunting rifles right in the chest"&#33; says stuntman Larry Lam still sounding dazed months later. "It was into Kelvarpads but an inch either way we would&#39;ve been dead. The director was saying &#39;OK, act really scared,&#39; and I said, &#39;Dont worry I am&#39;"

here is Ed Zwick on the movie "I wanted nothing in the movie that wasnt real"

[hazard]

so you mean they were shot with guns that weren&#39;t in the movie to simulate what its like to really get shot? wow. thats kinda screwed.

[suffianr]

besides Batman Forever she isn&#39;t really much more than a summary of her appearance.

I liked her in Moulin Rouge. And I think she&#39;s really good in Cold Mountain.

[ComradeRed]

[QUOTE] first of all, muskets didnt fire bullets. so I don&#39;t see how real bullets could be used.

second of all, if you meant by bullet musket "balls" ( for lack of a better term ), they are highly innacurate and very unpredictable so I don&#39;t see how they could, or why they would, have decided to use the real thing for a movie such as this.

K, they were called &#39;minier balls&#39;, they were invented by a french dude, who was named minier. Remember &#39;The patriot&#39; *shudder*, imperialist propaganda, the dude mel gibson, he made his own ammunition out of led figures, a fire and a mold. Minier balls are more accurate, still very innaurate compared to rifles.

Remeber, it took place in 1876, repeater rifles were invented&#33;

[Hawker]

The movie was inspired by the real last samurai named Saigo Takamori (1828-1877) who helped to pull down the Tokugawa shogunate and to restore the Meiji emperor. He then watched in anguish as the Meiji government, in its drive to modernize the country, stripped the samurai of all that made them samurai — the representatives of Japanese tradition, honor, and glory, if also feudal privilege.The bitter irony of his life is that his understanding of samurai honor led him first, to overthrow the shogun in the name of the emperor, then to support a radical reformist government, and finally to rebel against a government he had helped to establish.