If you were Lenin

[New Tolerance]

If you were in the place of Lenin just after the revolution succeeded in Russia what economic/political policies would you put in place?

[the SovieT]

well first of all i would force all peasents to plant weed..

then i would make beer the national beverage, and forbiden the exportation of beer and vodka, all of it had to be drank by the soviet people, and only after a few years, when the productivity was high they could export it...

[Morpheus]

Lenin shouldn't be the one making the decisions.

[Blackberry]

In fact, there shouldn't be any hierarchy of decision-making.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 9 2003, 10:48 AM
well first of all i would force all peasents to plant weed..
Take note, people. The peasants should be forced to do what the almighty leader tells them.

It sounds a lot like slavery, doesn't it?

[New Tolerance]

In fact, there shouldn't be any hierarchy of decision-making.

Well then the question would be how would you go around dismantling the hierarchies? I don't think hierarchies are going to be gone if you just make a speech and tell people that chains of command are gone. They'd be all confused.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 9 2003, 12:49 PM

In fact, there shouldn't be any hierarchy of decision-making.

Well then the question would be how would you go around dismantling the hierarchies? I don't think hierarchies are going to be gone if you just make a speech and tell people that chains of command are gone. They'd be all confused.

Why would people be confused? If Lenin and the Bolsheviks did not take power in the first place, a decentralised direct democratic decision-making would probably have occurred anyway.

[New Tolerance]

Why would people be confused? If Lenin and the Bolsheviks did not take power in the first place, a decentralised direct democratic decision-making would probably have occurred anyway.

Ok, I thought you were talking about something else.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

O my, we can't have any centralized planning! Lest we responsibly manage society to make the things to make the people strong! O no! That would be just TERRIBLE! We need capita- *ahem* ANARCHY to have TRUELY free peasants.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 09:50 AM
O my, we can't have any centralized planning! Lest we responsibly manage society to make the things to make the people strong! O no! That would be just TERRIBLE! We need capita- *ahem* ANARCHY to have TRUELY free peasants.
Yes, we have seen that vanguardism is a miserable failure.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

"Comrade James",its insulting to all the Marxists here that you are a moderator at a so called communist forum.Disregarding that,Lenin didn;t have full power at all.Notice how whenever he had a new idea he had to work his tail off to get it passed the Central Comitte and all other similar organasations.Even the western "historians" don't deny this.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 03:39 PM
"Comrade James",its insulting to all the Marxists here that you are a moderator at a so called communist forum.Disregarding that,Lenin didn;t have full power at all.Notice how whenever he had a new idea he had to work his tail off to get it passed the Central Comitte and all other similar organasations.Even the western "historians" don't deny this.

"Comrade James",its insulting to all the Marxists here that you are a moderator at a so called communist forum.

To vanguardists, yes, but non-vanguardists do not seem to have a problem with me.

I encourage you to private message the administrators to voice concerns about me. I will give you their names: Malte; Dhul Fiqar; Exploited Class; D Day; RedCeltic. Please request that they will message me when they have decided whether it is an insult that I am a moderator or not.

And if you haven't noticed already, this is an Ernesto Guevara message board.


Disregarding that,Lenin didn;t have full power at all.

I never said otherwise.


Notice how whenever he had a new idea he had to work his tail off to get it passed the Central Comitte and all other similar organasations.

Redstar2000, a marxist, has tirelessly written a lot on this subject, and argued on this same issue over and over and over again. He gets sick of it, and it bores me as well.

I point you to several of his pieces:

http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/r...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1052240426&archive=1054467213&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)
http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/r...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1052191276&archive=1054467213&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)
http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/r...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1057723353&archive=1059755414&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)
http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/r...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1058534739&archive=1059755414&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)
http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/r...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1063384078&archive=1067850372&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)
http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/r...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1070685577&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

When will you realise, that your vanguardism and 'democratic' centralism has achieved nothing but dictatorship and/or capitalism?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

So all the free health care,the free education,the high literacy rates,even the ability to be able to take vacations and what not a few times a year(this was available for everyone under the so called "dictatorship"you so negatively speak of).Even my dad,a defector from socialist Hungary and a stout anti-communist talks of how everyone could go to the opera and entertainment at a low price,now that socialism is overthrown many of these neccessities such as good education,housing,etc aern't availbable.And since those aern't available,I do not even think that I have to comment on such non-neccissity things like operas and what not.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

You may hate Leninism,but not giving it credit for the positives that it achieved,that no one denies,(what i spoke about in my former post,that is just a start),is simply foolsih,ignorant and simplistic.

[Morpheus]

The "positives" it achieved were no better than the positives achieved by Social Democracy - healthcare, education, etc. And the Social Democrats did it without murdering everyone who disagreed with them. Leninism is incapable of liberating the working class, it is a proven failure.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Lenin was a fundamentally good man; he was forced into coercive policy making by the volatile nature of the times.

"Vanguardism" is not such a good idea now, no. But Lenin had little choice - Russia's population was comprised largely (80%) of peasants. Establishing a "dictatorship" in the name of the Proletariat was therefore the right idea. If Russia had not been crippled by the First World War, and if Civil War hadn't broken out almost immediately after the siezure of power, perhaps things would have been different.

Lenin implemented sensible policies, considering the circumstances.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

The "positives" it achieved were no better than the positives achieved by Social Democracy - healthcare, education, etc. And the Social Democrats did it without murdering everyone who disagreed with them. Leninism is incapable of liberating the working class, it is a proven failure.

Give me some examples of this.

[komsomol]

I would put in place whatever was possible at the time, with the benifit of hindsight I would probably have let some market forces exist. Support for the regime would undoubtedly be shown in the civil war, and so would the opportunistic petty-bourgeoisie intellectual's traitorous tendencies. More careful, more directly democratic policies would be worked out once the civil war had ended and the apparatus had been put in place.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 03:16 AM
The "positives" it achieved were no better than the positives achieved by Social Democracy - healthcare, education, etc. And the Social Democrats did it without murdering everyone who disagreed with them. Leninism is incapable of liberating the working class, it is a proven failure.
Wrong! it was the masses who did this and working class ideas that created these policies. Social Democracy is a political ideal that has been influenced by the working class. Socialism is the ideal of the working class.

[SonofRage]

I would have killed Stalin.

[Soviet power supreme]

If I were Lenin i wouldnt pull out Russian troops from Finland in 1918.In fact I would have increace the number a lot.Yes I know he wanted these nations to solve by themselves their problems and he gave them independency.But the bourgeoise didnt fight fair and they got those mothafucka troops from Germany.

I want to know what trotkies here would have done.
Would you continued the capitalist policy NEP?

[Eastside Revolt]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 8 2003, 11:02 PM
If you were in the place of Lenin just after the revolution succeeded in Russia what economic/political policies would you put in place?
If I were in Lenin's shoes I would have had an unsuccessful revolution mostly because, I would not have made violence my number 1 tool for influencing the people. I think I'd be lucky to get a small commune going around Moscow, and I'm sure even that would be crushed by outside pressures.

Personally I'm not cold enough to try and force such a large number of stupid peasants to be civilised. In Lenin's shoes I would have kept trying in Germany or anywhere more advanced than Russia.

Please don't jump on me. :D

[apathy maybe]

Firstly I wouldn't have killed off (or got Trotsky to kill off) all the anarchists.

[bazonix]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 11 2003, 08:20 PM
Lenin was a fundamentally good man; he was forced into coercive policy making by the volatile nature of the times.

"Vanguardism" is not such a good idea now, no. But Lenin had little choice - Russia's population was comprised largely (80%) of peasants. Establishing a "dictatorship" in the name of the Proletariat was therefore the right idea. If Russia had not been crippled by the First World War, and if Civil War hadn't broken out almost immediately after the siezure of power, perhaps things would have been different.

Lenin implemented sensible policies, considering the circumstances.
A good man....? Perhaps, but a stupid one.

You cannot guide/force the people into Communism. People have to realise the truth for themselves. Seizing power is a mugs game. Only idiots think they can change the world to match their desire. You can fight, you can educate, you can set an example, you can give passion and goodness and love, but to seize power is to deny all of these things, all those things that are good in humanity.

That is my thought for today. I might be wrong, but it feels right to me.