Difference between Class Struggle and Class War?

[Angry Young and Red]

I may be mistaken, but I think that Marxist-Leninists use the term Class Struggle mostly, while Libertarian Socialists and Anarchists uses the term Class War more often.

If I am correct here, then why is it so? Is there any ideological reason? What is the actual difference between the two terms?

[Railyon]

Class War sounds more badass. I think it's just taking the concept of class struggle a step further as the term can also refer to the implicit class antagonisms in capitalism.

Just my uninformed 2c though.

[Revolution starts with U]

Class struggle is slacking off, unionizing, pushing for higher wages, etc.

Class warfare is when the working class openly declares "war" against the bourgeois oppressors. At least that's how I see it.

[Leftsolidarity]

There's no difference

[MustCrushCapitalism]

Class War sounds more badass.
Basically this.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Class struggle is class warfare.

Class Struggles is individual battles in the Class War.

[Bostana]

Class Struggle is The conflict of interests between the workers and the ruling class in a capitalist society, regarded as inevitably violent.

Class Warfare is when the Proletariat fights back

[L.A.P.]

It seems to me that "class war" is a term used by reactionaries to make class struggle appear as scary or undesirable. I remember this came up in an argument about Cuba and it kind of went like this:

Reactionary:ZOMG! Castro and Che executed their own people! (I won't get into it but I really hate it when people make historical figures worse because they killed people who just so happen to live within the same national borders, it implies killing foreigners is not as bad and you shouldn't fight the bourgeoisie because they're of the same national origin. Fuck nationalism)

xx1994xx:Well I'm sure some of the executions were unfortunate but it's not like most of them were poor peasants or something, they were members of an economic class brutally warring against the average Cuban. It's called class struggle dude, look it up.

Reactionary: Yeah, more like class warfare.

xx1994xx:Okay...what's your point?:mellow:

[Railyon]

Reminds me of the type of conservative bullshit like "one type of socialist killed over race, another over class, they're all murdering loons".

[Luc]

tbh I think it's just easier to say class war instead of class struggle

3 "s"'s ? it better be one word or else fuck it :glare:

[Pretty Flaco]

class war is what you hear about on fox news.

[Luc]

class war is what you hear about on fox news.

actually this (xx1994xx's post) got me thinking....


I know for certain "class war" has been around since around 1900 and used by leftists not just rightists as demonstraded by this quote from a Galleanist leaflet or something left after a bombing:


War, Class War, and you were the first to wage it under the cover of the powerful institutions you call order, in the darkness of your laws. There will have to be bloodshed; we will not dodge; there will have to be murder: we will kill, because it is necessary; there will have to be destruction; we will destroy to rid the world of your tyrannical institutions.

from Sacco and Vanzetti: The Anarchist Background by Paul Avrich

can also read about it from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Galleani#Galleanist_activities) scroll down to bottom of the section

[Die Neue Zeit]

Class struggle is slacking off, unionizing, pushing for higher wages, etc.

Sorry, but that's not even class struggle. Genuine class struggle is political, and is more likely to emerge from movements like Occupy than from tred-iunion maneuverings.


Class warfare is when the working class openly declares "war" against the bourgeois oppressors. At least that's how I see it.

It sound "bad ass" in the wrong way, a lot of times. Why? It was invented by those on the mainstream, trying to blunt working-class initiative on class antagonisms.

[Revolution starts with U]

Sorry, but that's not even class struggle. Genuine class struggle is political, and is more likely to emerge from movements like Occupy than from tred-iunion maneuverings.



It sound "bad ass" in the wrong way, a lot of times. Why? It was invented by those on the mainstream, trying to blunt working-class initiative on class antagonisms.

I agree with the larger point, but worker movements are every bit as much a part of class struggle as when they move politically. Revolutions may be more likely to come from Occupy-type assemblies, but class struggle exists even in times of "class peace."

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Class War sounds more badass. I think it's just taking the concept of class struggle a step further as the term can also refer to the implicit class antagonisms in capitalism.

Just my uninformed 2c though.

^This.

[Grenzer]

It sound "bad ass" in the wrong way, a lot of times. Why? It was invented by those on the mainstream, trying to blunt working-class initiative on class antagonisms.

That's true. Here in the United States, the reactionaries constantly claim that anything that could even remotely be construed as progressive is "Class warfare". It's never used by the centre-left to describe the centre-right, and if it is, it's half hearted.

What most people conceive of as class struggle does indeed seem to be trade union struggle. Political struggle is the most meaningful form of class struggle, since economic gains can only come with a corresponding gain in political gains(but political gains can't necessarily be made through trade union struggle).

[Die Neue Zeit]

I agree with the larger point, but worker movements are every bit as much a part of class struggle as when they move politically. Revolutions may be more likely to come from Occupy-type assemblies, but class struggle exists even in times of "class peace."

Actually, that's precisely what I've meant by worker movements as well. Worker-class movements are necessarily political. Mere "labour movements" aren't.


That's true. Here in the United States, the reactionaries constantly claim that anything that could even remotely be construed as progressive is "Class warfare". It's never used by the centre-left to describe the centre-right, and if it is, it's half hearted.

What most people conceive of as class struggle does indeed seem to be trade union struggle. Political struggle is the most meaningful form of class struggle, since economic gains can only come with a corresponding gain in political gains(but political gains can't necessarily be made through trade union struggle).

You've got it the wrong way around, comrade. Not every political struggle is genuine class struggle. If you were to reconcile with more economistic minded activists, I'd say that politics is the most meaningful form of what they call "class struggle."

Unlike various other situations requiring political neologisms, this one requires political re-appropriation.

[Revolution starts with U]

Actually, that's precisely what I've meant by worker movements as well. Worker-class movements are necessarily political. Mere "labour movements" aren't.

But is it not "labor movements" that form the basis of all working class struggle, political or not?

[Die Neue Zeit]

But is it not "labor movements" that form the basis of all working class struggle, political or not?

Mere "labour movements" are what I call those movements originating from trade union activity but where the organizations have decided to take some form of political action. Its most influential form is British Labourism.

They aren't worker-class movements, though. The differences between British Labourism and continental worker-class movements (Italian, French, and especially German) are vast. Worker-class movements start from the get-go with political action, knowing that economic gains are pointless and related struggles futile without politics from the outset. The German model, for example, started out as an explicitly anti-trade union movement (Ferdinand Lassalle's ADAV).

[Revolution starts with U]

Mere "labour movements" are what I call those movements originating from trade union activity but where the organizations have decided to take some form of political action. Its most influential form is British Labourism.

They aren't worker-class movements, though. The differences between British Labourism and continental worker-class movements (Italian, French, and especially German) are vast. Worker-class movements start from the get-go with political action, knowing that economic gains are pointless and related struggles futile without politics from the outset. The German model, for example, started out as an explicitly anti-trade union movement (Ferdinand Lassalle's ADAV).

I mean I can see how they're not effective. But I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be "genuine" class struggle.

I guess I just think group actions are abstractions of individual actions, so I make the assumption that "class struggle" must originate on a personal level; ie, class struggle includes both movements as a class, and individual actions such as slacking off or asking for a raise. I don't see why this would be so far off a conclusion to make. :confused:

[Zav]

I believe that Class Struggle refers to the many thousand year old conflict between the power groups in societies, while Class War refers to the one usurping the other's throne and/or abolishing said chair. Class Warfare refers to the strategies and tactics used to win the Class War, thus ending the Class Struggle. I have not read much Marx, but this is the general idea as far as I know.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I mean I can see how they're not effective. But I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be "genuine" class struggle.

I guess I just think group actions are abstractions of individual actions, so I make the assumption that "class struggle" must originate on a personal level; ie, class struggle includes both movements as a class, and individual actions such as slacking off or asking for a raise. I don't see why this would be so far off a conclusion to make. :confused:

One has a political character, while the other doesn't, unless said individual actions entail political education, political agitation, political organization, and all that political activist stuff jump-starting worker-class movements (called by ultra-leftists "voluntarism").

[Note to comrades: Though I distinguished between British Labourism and continental worker-class movements, it's obvious that the former does have some political character. It's just that the former also has that slippery slope of growing political struggles out of lesser economic struggles.]

[Jimmie Higgins]

IMO Class struggle always exists regardless of being relatively calm or explosive - whereas class war is when the class struggle breeches the surface of the illusions of a united population and both sides are conscious of the class nature of their struggle.

[Railyon]

I'd also think this term is a purely anglosaxon phenomenon. In German for example there is no "Klassenkrieg" but only "Klassenkampf" as far as I'm aware, and I'm not sure other languages have anything similar.

[Manic Impressive]

what does that mean class book?

I see no difference between class war and class struggle. In a way it's surprising that we don't have more words for it, like Eskimos and snow.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I'd also think this term is a purely anglosaxon phenomenon. In German for example there is no "Klassenkrieg" but only "Klassenkampf" as far as I'm aware, and I'm not sure other languages have anything similar.

There is the latter in German, actually.