Spirituality And The Revolution

[CommunistRob]

In my opinion what previous revolutions have seriously lacked is a strong religious and or spiritual base.Many leaders such as Lenin , Castro , or Mao didn't think to fondly of religion at all.I think this really lead to a lack of morals when these leaders tried to lead there country.My new philosophy is that although I believe socialism is the best economic system for a country it should not be held as a priority before other things.Spirituality should be number one because once a person reaches a state of advanced learning and even enlightenment socialism will just come naturally.I see this because most religions promote charity or helping the poor and naturally once you begin to study as many religions as possible you will become a morally strong person.Morally strong people want to help the poor.And as for atheists I consider them a religion too atheists belive that there is no god because there is no scientifical or physical evidence.Well then the atheist belive that everything was formed naturally without any help from a higher power so in a sense and atheist does have a god , nature.And I am not saying that any government formed should automatically force one particular religion down the populations throats it should simply develop large programs where one can learn as much information as they can about any religion or spirtual idea.For any country the people must have a strong spiritual and philosophical base if they dont they will lose morals and there vision of peace love justice and happiness will become blurred as we can see in many countries today such as ours although many of our leaders are religious they know nothing about other religions through out the world which has ended up causing us and the world many problems.There will be a revolution that comes one day when the time is right and this revolution will be solely based on the idea that spirituality is the most important thing in a persons life.

-Always Learning

Peace And Infinite Blessings

[redstar2000]

There will be a revolution that comes one day when the time is right and this revolution will be solely based on the idea that spirituality is the most important thing in a person's life.

No.

There's no such thing as "spirituality" and thus it cannot be the basis of anything except self-delusion or the deliberate effort to delude others.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[CommunistRob]

"No.

There's no such thing as "spirituality" and thus it cannot be the basis of anything except self-delusion or the deliberate effort to delude others."


Of course you have your opinion and i respect that.But I think Joseph Stalin also believed the same thing and we all know what a kind compassionate man he was (i'm being sarcastic).People must remember spirituality and religion are not the same thing.Spirituality deals with the way you look at religion life and well being.Anyone who disregards spirituality will most likely end up disregarding many common morals that humanity shares.Adolph Hitler was not a spiritual person he was colse minded and did not see the right other religions had to exist and could not understand there way of thinking.Anyone who has a strong spiritual background will be open to other religions so In my opinion a nation with a high spiritual awareness will not have the problems many countries have today that are caused by religious differences.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I am an athiest and spiritual matters don't really concern me as an induvidual at this point, but I think that freedom of religion/spirituality are important things and no mass workers movent in the forseeable future will be 100% athiest. I think that nothing stays around this long without fufilling some kind of perpose and I think spirituality helps many people and religion shows that regular people do wish for a better world even if, right now, they think they can olnly get it after they die.

However, I have also heard many religious people say things like "you have to revolutionize yourself from within before you can change society" and I think this is a barrier to change since society has a major impact on how you live your life. How is someone supposed to be a good christian in a system that forces you to compete with your fellow man in order to make a living.

[redstar2000]

Anyone who disregards spirituality will most likely end up disregarding many common morals that humanity shares.

Well, which "common morals"?

A good many of them, in my view, deserve not merely to be disregarded but crushed!

We could start with the treatment of women and children, for example... :angry:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[CommunistRob]

When i'm talking about spirtuality as an important thing I'm not just talking about religion.I'm talking about the way people look at life in general.In my opinion although most people in the world may be part of a religion they aren't very spiritual they just simply follow what there leaders tell them to do.People need to open there eyes and search for the key to existence by themselves and you don't have to believe in god to do that you can also be an atheist until people are truly aware in a spiritual sense I don't think a revolution would succeed without spirtuality and you know why so far every communist country has failed at creating a successful system and maybe it's because they all weren't very fond of spirituality.

[Rasta Sapian]

rob, good point, spiritualism is very important to many! it is something that can't be suppressed!
What do you think about a spiritual revolution?

[Se7en]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 06:56 AM

We could start with the treatment of women and children, for example... :angry:


elaborate, si vous plait...

[Jimmie Higgins]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 11 2003, 10:31 PM
rob, good point, spiritualism is very important to many! it is something that can't be suppressed!
What do you think about a spiritual revolution?
I agree with the first part, but I think from a marxist perspective, it would be impossible to change all of society through an inner spiritual change of many induviduals. I don't think the problem with capitalism lies within people's hearts and sould, but in the structures of the system.

For example, lets say that rich industrialist has a spiritual awakening and realizes that he is exploiting his workers to make profit for his company, so then he treats his workers better and gives them a desent wage (this isn't socialism but it is a better version of what we have now) and decides he won't try and run his competators out of business. Well because he makes no more profits, investors stop investing and his other copetators drive him out of business by continuing to exploit their labor. Now he is no longer a businessman, but he is spiritually enlightened... the end result is only a change of one induvidual, and not the entire system.

It's not because business people are evil induviduals that the world is screwed up, it's because of the pressures and forces in the system. The market drives the lust for profit, drives down wages, causes crisis and companies to lay people off, pushes towards monopoly anb so on.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I just want to add that I think spirituality can help people and reforms can make observable improvements on people's lives. Most of the time these are good things, they make life more livable in this system, but the root problems don't come from the human soul or bad induviduals, the vast majorety of our problems come from the way society is set up and organized at this time in history.

Additionally, I think that once society has changed so that the majorety run things and have their demands met, then spirituality may be even more meaningfull since people will not have to worry about the everyday battles of rent and work and unemployment and crime and can concentrate on spiritual or other matters.

[redstar2000]

People need to open their eyes and search for the key to existence by themselves ...

What key?

Who has actually found "it" and what evidence can they offer that "it" actually "unlocks" anything?


...until people are truly aware in a spiritual sense, I don't think a revolution would succeed without spirtuality...

Who "is" truly "aware" in a "spiritual" sense and what do they have to say for themselves?

Where is the equivalent of a "spiritual engineer" who can tell us what to do and why and how it works?

No platitudes or obscure babble, mind you, but useful information that actually helps to figure out the universe.

Without this, you're just saying "be spiritual"...a completely meaningless injunction.

Why should anyone bother?


Spiritualism is very important to many! It is something that can't be suppressed!

Oh, I don't know about that...once kids are no longer taught to take things like that seriously, I suspect only historians will be interested...and not many of them.


elaborate, si vous plait...

It was asserted earlier in the thread that the failure to be "spiritual" would result in one ignoring many of the "morals common to humanity".

During almost all of recorded history, it was considered "moral" to treat women and children as property...and, often, not even very valuable property at that. Even now, in most of the world it is still considered "moral" to abuse female spouses and relatives and to use physical violence against children.

This is an example of "morals common to humanity" that deserves to be crushed out of existence...by whatever means necessary.

"Spirituality", of course, has nothing relevant to say on the matter...or about anything else that is real.

This is to be expected...since "spirituality" itself is not real.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Rasta Sapian]

a subconscious, uforic, evolution of the mind, we are talking spiritual revolution people spreading universalist ideals to the masses



peace yall :)

[CommunistRob]

You know what I think there needs to be a spiritual revolution before there can be any successful socialist revolution what do you think?

[Wenty]

i think you make a good point rob. Spirtuality should be allowed, could be allowed in a revolution.

What i think we should all agree on is that it should be tolerated. Some religions can have a negative effect but on the whole i don't think thats the case. I think its important to tolerate these things in society.

I only hope that anyone who is agnostic or atheist can still appreciate that if they were to create a socialist society these things would still be allowed to prosper. After all, repression (on a greater level then capitalist countries) is something common to all so called marxist-leninist states. Especially repression of religion.

[Wenty]

:marx: - how cool btw

[Rasta Sapian]

the bible and communist manifesto have one thing in common.
they both contain ideals and practices for people in societies, however, thease people lived hundreds or thousands of years ago, things have changed over the years. It is time for a change whether it happens politically (bloddy revolution, etc.) or spiritually (light bulb-subconscious enhlightenment)

Open your mind, use your own observations you find in the world, read between the lines in the media, look to yourself for the answers, look to others as well........

[CommunistRob]

Rasta Sapien I really like your way of thinking,are you really a rasta?

[commie kg]

Bakunin said "As long as we have a master in heaven, we will remain slaves on Earth." I tend to agree wholeheartedly.

Spiritualism is just mankind's attempt to justify his own existence. Once you actually think about religion, what it's about, and how it's been used in the past as just one of the ruling class' many tools of exploitation and oppression, you will disavow it as quick as you can say "God Bless." :lol:

[Wenty]

i've thought about religion. I don't think its a tool to exploit people or oppress people. For sure it can be used in that way just as oppression isn't a feature of marxism.

You saying its one of the ways the ruling class exploits people is marx, i think we all know that. I'm not sure i'm willing to agree with him wholeheartedly on this one though.

[Trissy]

I think some understanding of philosophy and spirituality would be helpful for a revolution but I still fail to see why religion is needed. True Stalin and many other leaders had horrendous regimes human rights wise but I don't think being religious would have changed much. We just have to ask ourself the question 'do you have to be relgious to be a moral person?' My own thoughts on this would be a resounding no. I'm not religious and yet I think I'm not necessarily a bad person.

Religion may have its positive points in aiding the suffering members of our species but I feel it is a distraction from the matter at hand, namely this world and life. We can't be sure that there is an afterlife and yet millions of people are holding out for one. If this is the only life we get then shouldn't we make the best of it and address the issues in this world? Religions may or may not be a tool of oppression but I think they are a distraction none the less. Plus not all brands and branches of religion are friendly. I'm sure we don't need reminding that there are many religious fanatics out there in every major religion and they want to preach their hatred of other religions, races, sexualities and cultures.

[Wenty]

as u said in another topic tristan, u are biased. For people who believe in a certain faith it isn't a distraction. It is their life, it helps them deal with problems. For people who don't believe it is nothing, obviously.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I have to agree with redstar2000 on this one.


Religion and spirituality are bullshit.

Anyone who believes this shit is deluding themselves, they have nothing to do with morality.

[Trissy]

Yes, well we're all biased I'm afraid, I just try to keep mine under control.

Well I'd argue that it is a distraction whether you believe or not because it claims to provide easy answers for the human race and prevent them from questioning things further. How many people believe in a divine plan of which we have no knowledge and so decide not to look for answers to their problems or what the sources of their problems are? How many believe in an afterlife and so tolerate almost anything in this life in order to get a nice afterlife? How many people waste their lives away in worship of something who's existence cannot be convincingly proved or disproved?

There's a world out there believe it or not and I think it would be quite nice if everyone realised that and made the most of it before we settle down and consider if there is a next chapter to life. I realise religions provide many people with hope but I don't think I need to repeat Nietzsche in stating how hope is a double-edged sword. Sure, it'd be great if there is an afterlife but hey here's a novel idea...why don't I try voting before I pray/grovel? Why don't I take part in political movements and organisations set on change before I resort to fooling myself that everything will be okay in the end...:unsure:

[Wenty]

i think, as in most things, we have to agree to disagree tristan.

as for comraderobertriley's comment. "religion and spirtuality are bullshit, anyone who believes this shit is deluding themselves". How do you know the people that believe aren't really deluding themseleves but in fact it is you who are deluding yourself by believing what you believe.

It all comes down to the character of belief in the end. It is up to you to decide what to believe and what not to believe. I get irritated by dogmatism.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Its just a shame that when you do eventually die and nothing happens you wont be able to say: "oh i guess i was wrong"

[Trissy]

Alas Adam I think you're right although I suspect we'll both continue to seek ways of persuading people to our way of thinking with new ways of presenting our respective views. I just find it interesting that you're an admirer of some of Camus' views, and yet the Absurd and a God are irreconcilable. A Universe without a God is one in which we must face up to the Absurdity of existence and live for it rather then in denial of it, where as a Universe with a God is one in which existence has meaning and so we have nothing to fear.

I think Voltaire put it best in his brilliant satirical evaluation of Leibniz's rational Universe...'all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds'.

Does this world look that way to you?

[Wenty]

what do i have to compare it to tristan?

I am a great fan of camus, look at my avatar!

the dogmatism continues then comraderob.


:che: :engles: :marx: :castro: I love these emoticons.

[Trissy]

Come now dear Adam, you really shouldn't be so modest. We can compare it to any rational model of the world in our mind. Of course I don't mean any type of Utopia that people may long for, but I mean a physical world (as I admit that a Utopia would be hard to create if you wanted to hold on to human freewill). Let me just put forward a few rough suggestions if I may be so bold:

* A Universe where the stars didn't have a finite lifetime.
* Elements that aren't radioactive and so don't increase the chances of cancer.
* A world which wasn't made up of techtonic plates that rub against one another creating causing earthquakes and volcanoes.

Now if I can come up with these three suggestions being a limited human being with a small mental and physical capacity then what could a being with infinite knowledge and power come up with? If there was such a being then he didn't need to leave these problems there for the human race to ponder over, and instead we could concentrate on important issues such as creating a better society.

Indeed you have a lovely avatar, and I think mine is snazzy too. Too emphasise my view that we need to win an ideological war of words with religion before any revolution is possible, i shall finish with a quote from good old Fred.


‘108. New struggles – After Buddha was dead, his shadow was still shown for centuries in a cave – a tremendous, gruesome shadow. God is dead; but given the way of men, there may still be caves for thousands of years in which his shadow will be shown – and we – we still have to vanquish his shadow, too’

[Wenty]

god gave the world to mankind. What we ponder is our own doing.

this topic is becoming narrow in the amount of people posting, and we have gone off topic again.

[CommunistRob]

Personally I disagree that religion and spirituality are only distractions from our exsistence.I think they are the key to our exsistence.Once we reach a level of spirituality we will realize there is no need to rely on anything to sustain us there will be no reason to worry about death or the after life for we will live forever.

[Rasta Sapian]

it is the will of the masses that will fuel the heart of the revolution, and yes, i believe that spirituality will definatly play a big role in the re-education.

rasta sapian say: smoke jah erb everyday, keep those demons at bay, say hey, thank jah for my life today

peace yall

[Trissy]

Well I didn't claim that spirituality was a distraction, just religion. As is has been stated earlier religion and spirituality are clearly different and I think we can have one without the other, just like we can be moral without having to be religious. Spirituality can simply be feeling the wonder of the world around us, and so it doesn't require any deity or the idea of heaven or an immortal soul. Spirituality can be helpful but I think the negative aspects religions have negate any positive ones they may have.

Take death for example. Sure, it's nice to think that poor dead aunt maude is in Heaven but this idea can easily cause me to ignore any feeling that we should make the most of this world while we can and instead cause me to focus on being 'good' in anticipation of being rewarded when I die. If this is the case then any religion that talks of Gods and other lives will only be a weight holding us back from any revolution. Sure Opium may make us feel better, but the fact remains that it saps and shortens life.

[CommunistRob]

Well maybe some people would think that because there is an afterlife they dont have ot make the best of this world i on the other hand I dont.But anyway this debate is weather or night spirituality is important not religion.I want to start a movement based on socialism and spirituality I wonder how many of you people would be with me.

[Rasta Sapian]

Universalism is the answer!

A classless world, with a people who respect each other more then themselves.

At the same time giving thanks and praise to world in which we are apart of.

This not a movement as much as it is evolution of the mind, all knowing, it is fate and fact that mankind is slowly waking up!

peace yall

[j.guevara]

i have never understood communists wanting to abolish religion. Im not religios I think its all bullshit ( for the same reasons that communists think so) but I would never take away someones spirituality. According to Marx relgion needs to be abolished cause its a tool of oppression and stops people from rebelling, but it could not be a abolished til after the revolution, so havent the people already rebelled? Their would be no need to desroy it then, ofcourse the power and money held by organized religion would haveto be destoyed and seized, but to attempt take someones religion or spituality will cause them to become fundamentalists and rebel against you.

[fallen camarade]

I just want to say that this whole idea seems a little foggy, CommunistRob. You think all countries that you don't accept are bad because they aren't giddy and spiritual? That a country goes bad because there are no set moral standards based on a set religion/spirituality? I'm sorry, but I see a warmonger in every extremely religious/overly spiritual person I see. Having a sense of spirituality is good, and I respect that, despite the fact that I don't have an ounce of it in my body, but saying that the only way to achieve the ultimate greatness is based on having rock solid spirituality seems more than just a little sketchy. This overly spiritual people can be easily seen right on your television. Christian preachers saying " Me and my people hate all that don't believe in the lord", is just the ultimate hypocrisy, and these are the people that cause the problems. People like them, but with different beliefs, all over the world, are the ones waging "Spiritual War", and thus starts the death we all want to stop. If religion/spirituality was actually just a belief and not a reason for living or weapon, it wouldn't be a problem, something as complex as spirituality should not be the basis on which human being thrive. It would only work backwards.

[hazard]

"If religion/spirituality was actually just a belief and not a reason for living or weapon, it wouldn't be a problem, something as complex as spirituality should not be the basis on which human being thrive. It would only work backwards. "

what does this mean?

I'll tell you

that you're fucking dumb

[fallen camarade]

Hazard.....I just don't get you I guess. You stalked me into every forum I went in, and just said "you're dumb". Great way to prove your point, jackass. I love how you have the most clever isults, and this great wealth of information on how you back yourself up. It's wonderful. You are a moron and you always will be becuase you don't debate, you argue. You are closed minded, and lacking any sort of reason to say anything to me, because you never say anything intelligent. You just quote me, and then say "you are dumb". You will never learn anything. Why don't you just ask me question about what I say, and if my response is off, say so, and I swear to you I will re-evaluate everything I say and say if your point is valid, and if it is, I'll take back what I said. Problem is, though, is that a barely know anything about your opinons, because you don't tell me what they are?! Stop insulting, and lend someone who is unsure a hand. If you think you are right, than don't you want me to hear what you have to say? What if your thoughts were to change the way I thought, and I agreed with a lot of your opinons? There wouldn't be a problem then, would there? We's both benefit, so why are you being such an ass to me? I'm sorry my thoughts don't seem to make sense to you, BUT TELL ME WHY!!! For the love of god, just make a valid point against me for once, and then I'd like to discuss things with you so I can see where you are coming from. It would be a win/win situation, so please be a little helpful and pick apart my thoughts and tell me why I'm wrong. Don't just say I'm wrong. Tell me why.

[hazard]

fc:

the only thing I'm going to tell you is people, like you, who toss around words like "stalking" must consider the seriousness of your statements. you're like a pre modanna, attention grabbing little child who thinks its fine to parlay on serious societal issues. clearly, if you were ever the victim of stalking you wouldn't be too quick to accuse somebody of doing that. but then again, for every actual stalking case are a dozen or so people that just get off on the destruction of an individual's feelings for a little extra attention, go ahead and make the accusation, then move on with their pathetic, horrible lives like they're none the worse for it. meanwhile, real stalkers go around unmolested because the authorities are buzy dealing with the phantom stalkers who are typically more the victim than the person responsible for the accusation.

every comment you have ever made has a serious problem with its tone and tenure. you can pretend to be the person you want to be, but believe me, it will catch up. live a life of lies, and such a life will become nothing more than a lie.

time to turn over the page, friend, and see whats on the other side. I recommend holding it up to the light and see what filters its way through.

[CommunistRob]

I am attempting a revival of this topic.Love and Peace and happiness.

[SittingBull47]

dude you better watch it. You might end up with an out-of-control theocracy. Fuck organized religion. if the people want to worship, then by all means worship whatever you want, just as long if it doesn't oppress a people.