Lenin's Death New Research

[Althusser]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/health/research/lenins-death-remains-a-mystery-for-doctors.html?_r=1

[NewLeft]

First sentence: The patient founded a totalitarian state known for its “merciless terror".. :mellow:

Stalin killed Lenin.

“Yes,” Dr. Vinters said. “Lenin could have gone on for another 20 or 25 years, assuming he wasn’t assassinated. History would have been totally different.”

[Althusser]

Get past the first sentence and the far fetched "Stalin killed Lenin!" part, and it's really interesting.

Hypothetically though, if Stalin did kill Lemon, it would give me one more reason to loathe him.

[Vapaus]

Interesting if it is true, that Lenin was indeed the first notch on Stalin's belt in his relentless pursuit of personal power at any cost. It certainly would not surprise me. Always seemed suspicious how Lenin was so prone to strokes and eventually death at such a relatively young age.

[Caj]

What a dumb article, beginning with the ridiculous first sentence and culminating in the idealist final sentence. I wonder how many of those Stalin quotes are actually legitimate. I googled a few of them and nothing else really came up.

[Caj]

Get past the first sentence and the far fetched "Stalin killed Lenin!" part, and it's really interesting.

Hypothetically though, if Stalin did kill Lemon, it would give me one more reason to loathe him.

Lemon?

[NewLeft]

Lemon?
My bad, autocorrect lol

[Althusser]

Lemon?

I was joking about New Left's comment before mine. lol

[Os Cangaceiros]

As a baby, Lenin had a head so large that he often fell over.

lol

[Zealot]

So Stalin not only killed Lenin but lemons as well... bastard.

That article was disappointing I'm not even gonna lie. I was hoping to find some new insights and instead it was just another 'Stalin killed Lenin'-type theory

[Drosophila]

"Dr. Lurie concurred on Friday, telling the conference that poison was in his opinion the most likely immediate cause of Lenin’s death. The most likely perpetrator? Stalin, who saw Lenin as his main obstacle to taking over the Soviet Union and wanted to get rid of him."

This doesn't even make sense. Lenin posed no threat whatsoever to Stalin's taking power. Do these people even know the slightest thing about USSR history?

Also, I doubt that history would have been "much different" if Lenin had lived another two decades. He and Stalin weren't all that different, even though people tend to hold higher opinions of Lenin.

[Zealot]

"Dr. Lurie concurred on Friday, telling the conference that poison was in his opinion the most likely immediate cause of Lenin’s death. The most likely perpetrator? Stalin, who saw Lenin as his main obstacle to taking over the Soviet Union and wanted to get rid of him."

Haha, oh wow

I also love the spelling errors. Fuck NYT.

A team of Doctors share their world-breaking, earth-shattering new theory on the death of Lenin after conducting an extensive investigation. Are you ready to hear it? Here it is:

STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT, STALIN DID IT.

Thanks to the great efforts of these Doctors, the mysterious death of Lenin is now finally solved. It took great sacrifices on the part of a room full of Doctors and a New York Times article to uncover this. Well, I'll be damned.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Ho hum. I think blaming Stalin for Lenin's death is kind of silly shy of much more compelling evidence. People ignorant of the conditions in the USSR at the time do not realize just how difficult it would have been for Stalin to even have the opportunity to poison Lenin. Lenin had severe arterial sclerosis -- that caused the strokes. Had Lenin lived, Stalin would have probably figured out a way to at least remain on the CC and politburo -- he was a masterful politician.

However, had Lenin lived another 5 years and been able to carry out fights within the party, history would have been different. Maybe very different, but maybe not. But, fuck it, he didn't. Stalin triumphed, led the thermadorian reaction and chummed all the old bolsheviks. And now we live in times of unstable but triumphant reaction. Doo dah.

[Blanquist]

Stalin had the most to gain from Lenin's death.

Lenin broke relations with Stalin before his death and demanded Stalin be removed as General Secretary.

[Drosophila]

Stalin had the most to gain from Lenin's death.

Lenin broke relations with Stalin before his death and demanded Stalin be removed as General Secretary.

nah

[PhoenixAsh]

Interesting speculative medical analysis.

If this degenerates any further into sectarian warfare I am going to close this thread. Keep on topic of the (medical) arguments in the article.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Haven't yet read the article but interestingly enough this article is responsible for ferreting out the Stalinist, whom will probably be expelled, from the Fifth International Youth Group I am in. Drama is about to go down! lol

...still seems somewhat ridiculous to me,the notion that Stalin would kill Lenin.

[Geiseric]

Figuratively Stalin killed the idea of Leninism... I don't think he literally killed Lenin, because there's no proof, but Lenin didn't ever once say that he believed in SoiC and his life proved the contrary to what Stalin later claimed, thus a political rift would have inevitably formed. I read that he was getting better though in the months before he died.

[Koba Junior]

Figuratively Stalin killed the idea of Leninism... I don't think he literally killed Lenin, because there's no proof, but Lenin didn't ever once say that he believed in SoiC and his life proved the contrary to what Stalin later claimed, thus a political rift would have inevitably formed. I read that he was getting better though in the months before he died.

I don't agree with that at all. I believe socialism in one country follows the line of Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Otherwise, there would be no way to end exploitation except through the spontaneous revolution of the proletariat throughout the industrialized world.

[Geiseric]

It wouldnt be spontaneous, there were advanced and organized proletarians and communist parties in Italy, Germany, Spain, Hungary but they were restricted to soviet foreign policy which was tied to trading with western european powers, thus trying to advance russia's economy by preventing a revolution in germany. Same goes for france, as soon as fascism started rising Stalinism was unable to form united fronts with other proletarian parties in an effort to provide a front against it. Their lines at revolutionary times were parliamentary and popular fronts with bourgeois liberals most of the time.

[The Young Pioneer]

So Stalin not only killed Lenin but lemons as well... bastard.

All good M-Ls have an aversion to yellow fruits. :D


(Oh God that was awful but I really couldn't resist.)


No but really I doubt Stalin was behind it. Kind of Western-propagandic to suggest such a thing, in my opinion...

[Misanthrope]

Otherwise, there would be no way to end exploitation except through the spontaneous revolution of the proletariat throughout the industrialized world.

Why are you assuming spontaneity?

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Haven't yet read the article but interestingly enough this article is responsible for ferreting out the Stalinist, whom will probably be expelled, from the Fifth International Youth Group I am in. Drama is about to go down! lol

...still seems somewhat ridiculous to me,the notion that Stalin would kill Lenin.
Stalin killed all of his other comrades from the Bolshevik ranks, why would he have spared Lenin? I mean the guy would probably have killed his own mother to gain a majority in the Politburo on a vote about monetary policy.

[Reznov]

Get past the first sentence and the far fetched "Stalin killed Lenin!" part, and it's really interesting.

Hypothetically though, if Stalin did kill Lemon, it would give me one more reason to loathe him.

hehe, Lemon.

Does anyone else giggle at this?

[Koba Junior]

It wouldnt be spontaneous, there were advanced and organized proletarians and communist parties in Italy, Germany, Spain, Hungary but they were restricted to soviet foreign policy which was tied to trading with western european powers, thus trying to advance russia's economy by preventing a revolution in germany. Same goes for france, as soon as fascism started rising Stalinism was unable to form united fronts with other proletarian parties in an effort to provide a front against it. Their lines at revolutionary times were parliamentary and popular fronts with bourgeois liberals most of the time.

I would be interested in seeing the hard evidence that led you to these conclusions.

[Grenzer]

However, cooperating with social-democrats is the same thing as cooperating with bourgeois liberals, since that is ultimately who controls the social-democrats. The main problem was not that they refused to cooperate with social-democrats, which would be tantamount to reformism, but that the worker's movement became divorced from Marxism. This is a consequence of the failure of 1914. In short, there was pretty much no revolutionary strategy that could have been pursued that would have prevented the fascists from rising to power. Social-democratic parties are not proletarian parties, they are bourgeois parties. Neither the popular front nor the Trotskyist collaboration with bourgeois liberals, which is laughably done under the cloak of "proletarian united front", are acceptable strategies.

[Brosip Tito]

I think it's slightly interesting, and not far fetched.

However, the lack of evidence incriminating Stalin, is enough for me to say he didn't do it. Nor did Trotsky...to the ML's who I have heard blame him.

But yeah...not a stretch to believe Stalin would do it.

[Grenzer]

I think it's slightly interesting, and not far fetched.

However, the lack of evidence incriminating Stalin, is enough for me to say he didn't do it. Nor did Trotsky...to the ML's who I have heard blame him.

But yeah...not a stretch to believe Stalin would do it.

I pretty much have the same impression. I mean it makes sense that Stalin would do it, but there is really no evidence at all for it. There are a lot of people that wanted him dead, like pretty much every bourgeois state in the world.

[pastradamus]

Dissapointing article. Plain and simple.

[Zulu]

Lenin didn't ever once say that he believed in SoiC

Go read "On the Question of the United States of Europe", for starters.

[Zulu]

So Stalin not only killed Lenin but lemons as well... bastard.


Lennon.

Stalin killed John Lennon. Because who else could have done it???

[Caj]

I sense a new tendency: Marxism-Lemonism.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Stalin killed all of his other comrades from the Bolshevik ranks, why would he have spared Lenin? I mean the guy would probably have killed his own mother to gain a majority in the Politburo on a vote about monetary policy.

Assassinating rivals is a bit different than assassinating the head of world wide socialist revolution. Were he ever to be discovered harboring such plans it would have,needless to say,been the end of him.

Ultimately, however, this comes down personal opinion: is never going to be solved... so business as usual I guess.

[Hit The North]

Hypothetically though, if Stalin did kill Lemon, it would give me one more reason to loathe him.

If life gives you lemons, make Stalinade.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

However, cooperating with social-democrats is the same thing as cooperating with bourgeois liberals, since that is ultimately who controls the social-democrats. The main problem was not that they refused to cooperate with social-democrats, which would be tantamount to reformism, but that the worker's movement became divorced from Marxism. This is a consequence of the failure of 1914. In short, there was pretty much no revolutionary strategy that could have been pursued that would have prevented the fascists from rising to power. Social-democratic parties are not proletarian parties, they are bourgeois parties. Neither the popular front nor the Trotskyist collaboration with bourgeois liberals, which is laughably done under the cloak of "proletarian united front", are acceptable strategies.
The Trotskyist tactic of the United Front is not a collaboration with bourgeois liberals. At least not as put forth by Trotsky. And to simply call the SPD in Germany in the 1920s a bourgeois party is not accurate. The SPD today, sure, it's a bourgeois party -- but there were far more contradictions back when.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Lennon.

Stalin killed John Lennon. Because who else could have done it???And here I never even knew that Stalin was a fan of Jodie Foster.

EDIT: Shit, I meant catcher in the Rye. Wrong 1980s assassin. Damn I fucked up that joke.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Assassinating rivals is a bit different than assassinating the head of world wide socialist revolution. Were he ever to be discovered harboring such plans it would have,needless to say,been the end of him.

Ultimately, however, this comes down personal opinion: is never going to be solved... so business as usual I guess.
Of course this is the idlest of speculation. . . but, I think you underestimate Stalin. He would have made his moves over time -- it would have been much harder than with Trotsky. He would have had others begin the accusations and then slowly come around himself -- at first he would probably have defended Lenin. This guy was able to move Trotsky, Zinoviev and Kamenev out of power in a blink of an eye. They were all superior to Stalin on all counts except political cunning. A misstep in the process and Stalin would have been finished -- agreed.

[PhoenixAsh]

There is no evidence.

The conclusion is that medical examinations allow for the possibility that he was poisoned.

There is no actual proof of that because, as was mentioned in the aticle, it is not very posible to reexamine the body of Lenin nor to do any tests on it. So wether or not there was even murder in the first place is pure speculation to start with.

Any firther extrapolations who might possibly have done this are nothing short of spectacularism along the lines of the usual level of the Discovery Channel programs.

Mentioning Stalin as a possible perp...is just about as likely as naming his female companion/nurse/wife...who knows....maybe it was his neighbor because Lenins cat shit on his steps. Seeing as there is no evidence persuing this line goes into speculative history...

[Geiseric]

Conspriacy time: Stalin had Lenin's body embalmed so it couldn't be examined after he killed him. :laugh:

Seriously though, who does that? Lenin didn't really want a tomb that made him out to be the Pharoah of the USSR.

[Rafiq]

Figuratively Stalin killed the idea of Leninism... I don't think he literally killed Lenin, because there's no proof, but Lenin didn't ever once say that he believed in SoiC and his life proved the contrary to what Stalin later claimed, thus a political rift would have inevitably formed. I read that he was getting better though in the months before he died.

This is, without doubt an Idealist "analysis". The required social mechanisms which would formally destroy "Leninism", that is, the Lenin we all love from the Revolution to the Failure of the German one, was already present within this same person since the 1920's. Stalin was a mere continuation of this phenomena, and finally dug the grave of the revolution and gave it a proper burial.

[Rafiq]

However, cooperating with social-democrats is the same thing as cooperating with bourgeois liberals, since that is ultimately who controls the social-democrats. The main problem was not that they refused to cooperate with social-democrats, which would be tantamount to reformism, but that the worker's movement became divorced from Marxism. This is a consequence of the failure of 1914. In short, there was pretty much no revolutionary strategy that could have been pursued that would have prevented the fascists from rising to power. Social-democratic parties are not proletarian parties, they are bourgeois parties. Neither the popular front nor the Trotskyist collaboration with bourgeois liberals, which is laughably done under the cloak of "proletarian united front", are acceptable strategies.

Social Democracy, at that time, was something entirely different. It was 100% revolutionary in nature.

[Drosophila]

Seriously though, who does that? Lenin didn't really want a tomb that made him out to be the Pharoah of the USSR.

Most countries tend to worship their founders.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Most countries tend to worship their founders.

Worship only comes about, however, when propaganda becomes thick and people begin to germinate distorted views on who they actually were. Without the propaganda aspect I doubt most people would have more than a passing affection at all "great leaders."

[Tim Finnegan]

Most countries tend to worship their founders.
Pickling 'em is a special kind of crazy, though.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Pickling 'em is a special kind of crazy, though.

At least it is a step above mummification... I think...

[Drosophila]

Worship only comes about, however, when propaganda becomes thick and people begin to germinate distorted views on who they actually were. Without the propaganda aspect I doubt most people would have more than a passing affection at all "great leaders."

Sure, propaganda often fuels it. I don't deny this.