Cuba ready for "normal relations with US"

[cullinane]

UNITED NATIONS -- Cuba is ready for normal relations with the United
States "on the basis of respect and noninterference in the domestic
affairs of each country," Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque said
Friday.

But normal relations depend on whether President George W. Bush "can
dare to challenge the insolence and the power of the extremist groups
based in Miami ... which are dictating their interests to control U.S.
foreign policy as far as Cuba is concerned," he told a news conference.

In an interview Thursday with The Associated Press, Perez Roque said a
U.S. offer of assistance after Hurricane Michelle devastated the island
last month was "a positive signal," and Cuba hoped the offer heralded a
change in policy by the Bush administration.

"Today there is an administration in the United States which can outline
its own policy towards Cuba according to the interests of the American
people, business people and farmers," he told the news conference at
Cuba's U.N. Mission.

Perez Roque maintains that while American public opinion supports
lifting the trade embargo, U.S. policy toward Cuba has been "held
hostage" by a minority of Cuban-Americans opposed to lifting the trade
restrictions. Bush has previously vowed not to ease the trade ban.

Asked in the AP interview what Cuba would consider a positive, follow-up
action by the Bush administration, he replied: "To allow Americans to
travel freely to Cuba."

Even though Cuba has suffered under the U.S. embargo, Perez Roque said,
its people have "no grudges or ill-feelings" toward Americans.

"I believe that normal relations between Cuba and the United States, for
which Cuba is ready on the basis of respect and non-interference in the
domestic affairs of each country ... do not depend on hurricanes," he
told the news conference.

Perez Roque said although Cuba turned down the offer of U.S. aid after
the hurricane, it has opened talks with the United States for a one-time
cash purchase of food and medicine to replenish stocks depleted by the
storm.

"I believe in a matter of days we could have an agreement," he said
Friday. "I do not see any obstacles."

[DaNatural]

very interesting, but i dont make much of it, america has no need to make peace with cuba. cuba needs the usa more then it needs them.

[El Commandante]

I just hope that the US don't use this as an opportunity to invade, not with tanks and troops but with McDonalds and Burger King. I really hope that they don't try to wreck the country.

[Freiheit]

Cuba is country with two faces. There are nice beaches with the rich European tourists who usually are not interested in the country, the only want to have fun, but on the other hand, the population is quite poor. They work hard and cannot go to this hotels and beaches. In my oppinion there is not too much equality in Cuba. And with all this hotels and 'tourist supply' Cuba was invaded by capitalists a long time ago.
I know Cuba depends of this money, but they act against their principels.

[El Commandante]

Yes but this money was desperately needed with the collapse of USSR. This money has gone to produce a health service which is free for all with treatment on par with America and a better education system than most states in America. The original revolutionnaires always said it would be hard but look at what has been achieved, it has one of the highest life expectancies in North and South America. That is pretty impressive for a revolution built on hopes and dreams and against the biggest capitalist country in the world.

[Freiheit]

But on the other hand, Cuba is still a dictatorship. And Castro is able to kill any person he wants. And that is not right, Cuba needs a democratic structure.
A democratic structure would also help to represente the revolution, if the the majority of the people support the system, it is much more publicity than if the dictator support it.

But the biggest problem of Cuba: there is no freedom of speech and press. And that is very bad. An oppositioner mustnt be killed.

[CommieBastard]

I am all for reforms in Cuba, but it still has the best system out of all of the countries in the world.
At least there you get killed just cos some guy doesnt like you, whereas in the USA you live a pathetic and pointless life simply cos you were born in the wrong area to the wrong people.
I know i would sure as hell rather die than end up living in the circle of superficiality that capitalism provides.

Vivé Castro!

[Guest]

Where do you live, CommieBastard? In Cuba or in a circle of superficiality that capitalism provides?

[Freiheit]

The life-standard in most European countries is despite of cpitalism, much higher than in Cuba. That shouldnt support capitalism, but Cuba (Castro) is on the wrong way. I dont wanna live in a country in which I am killed, if i dont have exactely the same oppinion which the dictator has. Because no community is perfect, i will always be a renegade, also in communist country. i wanna be free to say my meaning etc.

[CommieBastard]

guest, i am from a choking circle of superficiality which capitalism provides. Why?

Freiheit... the average life standard may be higher, but i am willing to bet the bulk of cubans have a better life than the bulk of english. And that's only if you take the material element into account. As for the atmosphere of solidarity, that's just something you don't get elsewhere. As for Cuba's need for reform.... if you come from cuba it is easy to get out. You have 2 options, you leave through legitimate means, applications take a month, OR the USA will pay you large rewards to float on a piece of wood through the sea and look photogenic. Either way is good, and available, and in your opinion seems to be preferable to death. To be frank, anything that would take me back to a country like the one i am in atm would be a worse option to me than death in Cuba.
PLUS, the regime there has opinions that very roughly agree with mine, so i wouldnt risk death anyway ; )

[Viva Zapata]

yeah, you tell 'em CommieBastard !!! and Castro receives overwhelming support from the people, don't forget that. It would ofcourse be a lot easier if they wouldn't face the murderous embargo, and because they've faced so much terrorist acts in their country it has become necessary for the intelligence agency to keep a close eye on things. without this, it would be heaven on earth..

[Freiheit]

i know the cuban revolution increased the life standard in cuba very much.
now every cuban, doesnt matter which color his skin has, has the same rights.
but this rights are too low. sure, the people likes castro, but there is no opposition allowed etc. it is a tolitarian dictatorship, for example castro wants that if he dies that his brother raul gets the power. and that sound pretty dumm to me.
i know you cant change it from one day to another, but there must be reforms, now!

[vox]

Both sides here are making good points.

I heard a report on the radio a while back, and the general feeling of Cubans seemed to be that Castro was good, but he's been in too long and they should vote. Once again, the proletariat sees the salvation that is needed.

I'm not going to defend Castro's long tenure, but at the same time it would be silly to compare Castro to someone like Stalin. I've no need for that kind of essentialist thinking.

Someone brought up tourism. Yes, Cuba does rely upon it. But you can take another island nation, Jamaica, which relies on tourism, and compare the conditions in Jamaica to those in Cuba.

Castro is not a savior. In communism, there is no savior. There is only struggle, constant vigilance and dedication. I think that's more than enough.

vox

[Freiheit]

i dont wanna compare castro with stalin, but also in cuba was many people killed by castro (and che) because they had different opinions.
and that is bad.
1) the people are too afraid to critisize castro, and critic is needed to make something better. with critic castro learn what the people really want.
2) it makes a lot of anti-cuba propaganda by american etc. possible. if the cuban people would vote for a communist government, the american would be pissed of very much. and the whole world would laugh at them.

[Latino Americano]

If one looks through history, one can see Fidel has been on the defensive from the beginning.

Embargos, Invasions, Assassinations,Bio Weapons, Sabatoge, etc.

It can be clearly seen that the United States has and is continually trying to destroy Cuba directly and indirectly.

The U.S. has always tried, through time , to isolate all leftist governments.

More Governments need to be built on Socialism in order for all Socialist brothers to advance.

A strong alliance is necessary so these governments would not have to rely on the capitalist countries for support because that support would come from within.

[Freiheit]

i ask the following question:

HOW CAN FIDEL CASTRO KNOW WHAT HIS PEOPLE REALLY WANT, IF HIS PEOPLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT?

castro has only his SUBJECTIVE view of the problems, issues ... everything. free speech is needed for a working political system.
almost everyone in this forum wants more freedom in speech and more rights for the opposition (because we are the opposition). How can we expect more rights for us, but in a country builded on our philosophy, we support that the opposition and people with different opinions get killed?

EVERY POLITICAL SYSTEM HAS TO BE BUILD ON RESPECT AND TOLERANCE!

[Guest1]

I agree with Freiheit. The problem with alot of the revolutions so far is that they end up losing touch with the proletariate they came into power to help. I've voiced my opinions on democratic revolution in other threads, but it's an important point. Revolution should not be lead, it should come from the people themselves. No one person should be able to direct it, how are they to know what is good for the people? Castro is not the people, Mao is not the people, Stalin is not the people. They lead the people. The people should lead them. What happens after the revolution? Is the work over with? Dow we disregard the proletariate because we have no need of them? There is a tendancy to forget them as they have no real power in a dictatorship. The revolution should remain the people's revolution, not Castro's revolution. They should be capable of directing it. Democratic revolution. Not only does it give crediblity, but it also insures that the revolution doesn't lose its way.

[Viva Zapata]

here an article that I bumbed into yesterday

How democratic is Cuba ?

The Cuban Revolution began with the struggle for democracy against the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista.It was also a struggle for democracy in the broadest sense of winning the right of the Cuban nation to act as a sovereign power and shape its own future.

Out of the revolution there arose a number of mass popular organisations which to this day continue to wield considerable influence over Cuban society.These include the trade unions, the Federation of Cuban women,the national association of small farmers and, very importantly, the committees for the defence of the revolution. all these have extraordinarily high levels of membership numbering in most cases around 95% of their potential constituency.

These popular organisations are the backbone of the Cuban people's high level of participation in decisions which affect their everyday lives. But they are also complemented by a unique electoral system of direct democracy which the government proudly boasts, with justifiable reason, makes it the most democratic state in the world.

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible.

There are direct elections to municipal,provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. no political party, including the Communist party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions compromising representatives of all the mass organisations.the municipal elections are the cornerstone of Cuba's political structure. they comprise delegates who have great authority amongst the local population and who are elected for reasons of known integrity,intelligence,hard work and honesty

The elections to the provincial and national assemblies(Cuba's regional and national parliaments) follow a different procedure. for deputies to the national assembly the nominating process involves proposals from the municipal councils.

In addition to receiving nominations from different organisations and institutions, the candidacy commissions carry out an exhaustive process of consultation before drawing up a final slate. in the february 1993 elections(yeah, i know it's an old article)they consulted more than 1.5 million people and established a pool of between 60 and 70 thousand potential candidates before narrowing it down to 589.

The nominating process and the huge participation in the last election clearly show that the deputies to Cuba's parliament enjoy massive public support.
facts about the '93 elections to the National Assembly:
99% of the electorate voted
7% of the ballots were spoiled
of the 589 deputies,80% of them were elected for the first time, average age 43
77% men,23% women
59of the deputies were peasants or agricultural workers
46 were industrial or manual workers
23 trade union leaders
25 were intellectual,artists and journalists
29 teachers and specialists,10 secondary and university student leaders.

Found this article between some other papers, thought you might find it interesting.

[Kez]

Freihat, what are you on about, Castro hasnt killed anyone opposing him with freedom of speech, so get ur facts straight

comrade kamo

[El Commandante]

Castro is a legend in his own right, no other person could have held together the coutry democratically and so well like his has with so much adversity against him.

[Freiheit]

to Viva Zapata:

"Democracy cannot be maintained without its foundation: free public opinion and free discussion throughout the nation of all matters affecting the state within the limits set by the criminal code and the common law."
- The Supreme Court of Canada, 1938

to El Commandante and TravareeshKamo:

i asked you to answer a question (HOW CAN FIDEL CASTRO KNOW WHAT HIS PEOPLE REALLY WANT, IF HIS PEOPLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT?); you didnt do it. but no answer is also an answer. (my interpretation: you cannot answer my question, im right)

[CommieBastard]

Actually, the inability for a person to oppose your viewpoint does not automatically mean that your viewpoint is correct. All it means is that they are unaware of any opposing argument to it, which could simply be because they have been unable to think of one (it is easier to come up with an idea than refute it) or because they are unintelligent.

If i found any old idiot of the street and argued with him about something, and due to his idiocy could not refute the claim that i am in fact a large chicken, that would not mean that i am one...

What Plato said about the truth being reachable by debate was bullshit, and set abstract conceptualisation back several thousand years. Bastard.

[CommieBastard]

And as for what the supreme court of Canada said, i didn't realise that the ultimate authority in the defining of abstract concepts was Canada...
All I can say is that democracy is about power, and the wielding of it. In Democracy power is suposed to be spread equally so that the majority gets influence, and everything that Viva Zapata has there says shows to me that their system is CONSIDERABLY more democratic than any other system I have read details on. Unfortunately, that's limited to the UK, US, French, EU and Oz systems.
It's not as if Canada, or for that matter any other country in the world, do not violate many of the other basic foundations of democracy.

Also, I would say Viva Zapata answered your query about Castro, there it shows exactly how he finds out what the people want.

[Viva Zapata]

Thought so too, and Freiheit, do you really think that the cuban revolution depends on what ONE man wants ? if that was the case then the revolution has failed...

[gogo gomez]

talking my head out of the sand
walking around im feeling grand
then i listen to what all have to say
then i skwak, "my Lord why didnt i stay?"

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from Viva Zapata on 1:43 pm on Nov. 22, 2001
here an article that I bumbed into yesterday

How democratic is Cuba ?



viva zapata: thank you for the info, ive copied it for further study.

correct me if im wrong but is the article implying that Cuba is one of the most democratic states in the world? So what is the perceived problem? that Castro is a known dictator? forgive me for my ignorance but im slow to understand at times.

I heard that Bush was in Cuba and i also heard that he was quite impressed with it all??? hmm.

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from Freiheit on 2:00 am on Nov. 23, 2001
to Viva Zapata:

"Democracy cannot be maintained without its foundation: free public opinion and free discussion throughout the nation of all matters affecting the state within the limits set by the criminal code and the common law."
- The Supreme Court of Canada, 1938



Freiheit, does the above apply to everyone? or just a few appoints and elects? how can the people of the rat race do anything but be rats?? and the supreme court are they the twelve appointed that remain until ...either one resigns or dies?? i like the way democracy sounds and maybe i am very fortunate to live under its wings in america as long as i wear shades. :)


(Edited by gogo gomez at 7:59 pm on Nov. 23, 2001)

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from Freiheit on 2:00 am on Nov. 23, 2001
to Viva Zapata:

i asked you to answer a question (HOW CAN FIDEL CASTRO KNOW WHAT HIS PEOPLE REALLY WANT, IF HIS PEOPLE IS NOT ALLOWED TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT?); you didnt do it. but no answer is also an answer. (my interpretation: you cannot answer my question, im right)



lol Freiheit i enjoy your persistance. it seems obvious by the article that he does listen, no?

[Viva Zapata]

gogogomez

I would think it is democratic. The problem for the US I think is the fact that they have a one party system.
I don't think Bush has ever been to Cuba, probably never will.

[gogo gomez]

What Plato said about the truth being reachable by debate was bullshit, and set abstract conceptualisation back several thousand years. Bastard.


so what about Rene Descarte? he argued and doubted within himself and decided that there was truly an answer for every question and that everything that could be known "would".


(Edited by gogo gomez at 8:03 pm on Nov. 23, 2001)

[Freiheit]

i didnt say castro only thinks for himself, he tries to do the right thing, but whats the right thing? everyone has a different opinion. so the definition of right comes from the majority (and the majority gets it from education, parents, moral etc.).
1) ones emotions and feelings are always very strong, above all castros, and also if many people say him what they want, he wont always do it.
2) noone is perfect or even good. that the reason why the responsability of politics should be shared.
3) that you can say your meaning you must be a member of some certain associations, thats an undemocratic element. to be a member of an association you must do or think in some directions, everyone must be allowed to say his meaning.
4) the people who are politicians, doctors, policemen, nureses etc. (in fact, the people who should do what the people want). they have to be in the communist party which is controlled by castro. if you dont do what he want, they kick you off the party and you loose your job.

i didnt critisize castro, i critisize the system (so the only critisized thing about castro is: why doesnt castro change the system.)

where smoke is, is fire, too.

[Latino Americano]

Does one remember when Colin Powell said Fidel Castro has 'done great things for Cuba".

The statement might have been quickly swept away by the media before anybody could had gotten the chance to learn about it.

[CommieBastard]

No matter what you say Freiheit, Cuba is the most democratic nation there is....
People seem to have this idea that democracy means changing the leaders face every few years. Bullshit. The only thing that changes in America from term to term is the puppet that gets their strings pulled by the corporations.
And it isn't much better elsewhere.

Yes, Cubas system does not represent a PERFECT democracy. But by definition you cannot have anything which is perfect. Yes, there is room for improvement, but when the rest of the world is so far behind in the race, i think castro can be forgiven his stopping for a rest to wait for the rest of the buggers to catch up.

[CommieBastard]

Gogo Gomez - I would say very simply this, there is No truth. You cannot for certainty know anything.
You define your own reality. Every person lives in their own personal reality defined by their perceptions, the physiological interpretations of perceptions and the intellectual and abstract conceptualisations and interpretations of perceptions.

You cannot say any one interpretation is correct.
You cannot say that the majority is correct, because for all you know your perceptions of the majority's thoughts are incorrect. Can you ever know anything? i would say NO.

However, i would say that you have to work on the assumption that what you think of reality is correct, just so long as you recognise at every moment that your assumptions are based on what are ultimately flawed information, and are therefore willing to change them to fit in with new available assumptions.

and *sighs* i am going to give in and use an analogy i really don't like using... for all you know, you are actually a part of the matrix, you cannot disprove it.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 6:06 pm on Nov. 23, 2001

No matter what you say Freiheit, Cuba is the most democratic nation there is....


please explain me why cuba is the most democratic nation.

everyone is right as well as he is wrong. how can anyones opinion be called right or wrong, how can prove it - with other opinions. you can never prove an opinion then the only thing that can disprove an opinion is another opinion. but we need law (at least in our good sense) for a working society. and this laws should be made by the majority (there should be as less social laws as possible, but unfortunately some are needed).

please talk about my statements 1-4.

[Guest]

I have to disagree with cuba being the most "democratic" nation in the world. The only democratic nation in the world was in athens greece back a thousand years ago. Cuba isnt really a democracy because iam doubtful of the election process (since after all castro has been there since day one and also the public is probally as brainwashed as the american sheeple). If it was a true democracy i bet that castro wouldnt be there as long as he has now.
And america isnt a democracy,its a obliarchy

[Freiheit]

athen wasnt democratic, the economy was based on slavery and slves couldnt vote.