Greece election results coming in ... ND possibly 1st, SYRIZA doing well

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

It seems SYRIZA is doing better than most people were expecting a few weeks ago, ND and PASOK got whupped hardcore. It seems we will have to wait for more results to see how the other parties like KKE, DL, Gold Dawn etc did.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17975370


Greek main parties 'suffer big losses' at polls

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51606000/jpg/_51606573_fa1d16c0-9c6c-4f82-b0b8-ab66ddd94f78.jpg
Exit polls in the Greek parliamentary election suggest the two main parties have suffered big losses.
The polls, televised across Greece, put the centre-right New Democracy party in the lead with 17-20% of the vote.
Syriza, a coalition of left-wing parties, is put just in second place with centre-left Pasok third.
Pasok and New Democracy have been in coalition since last November and were expected to lose support to anti-austerity candidates.
There is widespread anger across Greece to harsh measures imposed by the government in return for international bailouts.
The exit polls, televised nationally, showed New Democracy with 17-20%; Syriza on 15.5-18.5% and Pasok in third place with 14-17%.

[ed miliband]

i'm just hoping for a really low turnout, sickened to hear it might be as high as 80% in france

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Why would you hope for a low turnout?

[ed miliband]

because at worst it suggests apathy towards (bourgeois) politics (no bad thing), at best it suggests utter hatred.


why would you hope for a high turnout? that's much more puzzling.

[Krano]

Nazis got into parliament.

[Paulappaul]

Why would you hope for a low turnout?

Because you'd think by now that the Greeks would get, you know, that parliamentary elections don't do shit and no matter who you elect it's gonna be the same bullshit. Marx said elections prove certain consciousness, whether it be Socialist, Liberal or Otherwise. Turn that on its head and you see when nobody votes for political reasons it represents a certain consciousness.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I have also posted the EXIT poll in the Greece section. Yeah, the nazis get in the parliament. SYRIZA sucks, they want Greece to be in the EU and they are like to govern with PASOK, so Greeks again are gonna eat shit for ONCE AGAIN.

[ed miliband]

Because you'd think by now that the Greeks would get, you know, that parliamentary elections don't do shit and no matter who you elect it's gonna be the same bullshit. Marx said elections prove certain consciousness, whether it be Socialist, Liberal or Otherwise. Turn that on its head and you see when nobody votes for political reasons it represents a certain consciousness.

this, except we don't know whether people have consciously made a "political" decision not to vote

[Aurora]

If that result for SYRIZA is correct it's a massive jump in support for them, hopefully the revolutionary sections have gained rather than the social-democratic.

[Q]

I have also posted the EXIT poll in the Greece section. Yeah, the nazis get in the parliament. SYRIZA sucks, they want Greece to be in the EU and they are like to govern with PASOK, so Greeks again are gonna eat shit for ONCE AGAIN.

Leaving the EU is hardly an alternative.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Leaving the EU is hardly an alternative.
It's the only solution for Greece to be free of capitalism!All these "leftist" parties (SYRIZA,DIMAR,PASOK) want Greece in EU but they promise to get the country out of the mnemonium!NO !

[Paulappaul]

this, except we don't know whether people have consciously made a "political" decision not to vote

With exception to the bourgeois, I think everyone who refuses to vote is because they recognize "voting doesn't affect me"/"voting won't change anything" which is a communist consciousness in and of itself, while it may not be as developed as "Voting won't do anything because since World War 1 Capitalism has been a decadent system blah blah".

[ed miliband]

It's the only solution for Greece to be free of capitalism!All these "leftist" parties (SYRIZA,DIMAR,PASOK) want Greece in EU but they promise to get the country out of the mnemonium!NO !

yes, of course, because capitalism only exists because of the eu.

[Q]

It's the only solution for Greece to be free of capitalism!All these "leftist" parties (SYRIZA,DIMAR,PASOK) want Greece in EU but they promise to get the country out of the mnemonium!NO !

It would mean a certain complete bankruptcy and meltdown of society. In a way you're right: It would indeed mean the end of capitalism, but in the sense of a complete disintegration of society.

Hardly a way forward.

What we need is class action on a continental level to pose continentalwide alternatives. This is, at the very least, necessary to start to pose positive alternatives to capitalism.

[Tim Cornelis]

It's the only solution for Greece to be free of capitalism!All these "leftist" parties (SYRIZA,DIMAR,PASOK) want Greece in EU but they promise to get the country out of the mnemonium!NO !

If socialism is to be a success, the revolution must be continental and start throughout most/all of Europe (or another continent for that matter). I am moderately, and critically pro-EU for this reason. It integrates the political scenes and economies of Europe, thus bring the people closer together. A revolution is more likely to spread throughout Europe when it's more united as opposed when it is independent nation-states.

SYRIZA may get 15-18 percent, in addition to the KKE with 10 percent is 25-28 percent for the communists. While SYRIZA is not really revolutionary, it is a step in the right direction.

EDIT:

Disappointing results for the KKE, between 9-12 percent in polls, but reports say only 7.5-9 percent in the election.

[Thirsty Crow]

With exception to the bourgeois, I think everyone who refuses to vote is because they recognize "voting doesn't affect me"/"voting won't change anything" which is a communist consciousness in and of itself, while it may not be as developed as "Voting won't do anything because since World War 1 Capitalism has been a decadent system blah blah".
There's a whole host of other reasons for not showing up and failing to vote. I think you're just hoisting your predetermined opinion on people who hold a wide variety of views.
And even then, "voting won't change anything" doesn't express anything like a communist consciousness since it is entirely negative, and doesn't put the basic boss to worker relationship into question.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29

According to the polls I'm seeing, this party got in. That's pretty fucking bad, and I think that this is especially notable in Greece, where the global economic crisis is hitting hardest right now. When the economic crisis worsens in other areas, we might see this same result, unfortunately.

[ed miliband]

It would mean a certain complete bankruptcy and meltdown of society. In a way you're right: It would indeed mean the end of capitalism, but in the sense of a complete disintegration of society.

Hardly a way forward.

What we need is class action on a continental level to pose continentalwide alternatives. This is, at the very least, necessary to start to pose positive alternatives to capitalism.

this, but what can we expect? the kke only see national solutions for international issues.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

yes, of course, because capitalism only exists because of the eu.
No didn't say that, but EU is also a reason for capitalism in Greece.

[Welshy]

No didn't say that, but EU is also a reason for capitalism in Greece.

I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but how can the EU be a reason for capitalism in Greece when Greece was capitalist before 1981?

[Thirsty Crow]

If socialism is to be a success, the revolution must be continental and start throughout most/all of Europe (or another continent for that matter). I am moderately, and critically pro-EU for this reason. It integrates the political scenes and economies of Europe, thus bring the people closer together. A revolution is more likely to spread throughout Europe when it's more united as opposed when it is independent nation-states.
Now that's a big assumption. I don't think it holds actually.
The primary political focus, concerning the European Union, is still the nation state. The political scenes are hardly "integrated" because of the existence of European mechanisms, but rather because of the social and economic crisis which puts very similar problems on the agenda all over the place (Europe, that is). Also, it's very hard to see just how Europe is united when you consider the existing inter-imperialist conflict in Europe (something which is disguised by flowery rhetoric), especially along the lines of the center and periphery.

Now of course, that doesn't mean that we should throw our support between concealed nationalist projects which emphasize the Union as a political and economic problem of the first order.

[Paulappaul]

There's a whole host of other reasons for not showing up and failing to vote. I think you're just hoisting your predetermined opinion on people who hold a wide variety of views.
And even then, "voting won't change anything" doesn't express anything like a communist consciousness since it is entirely negative, and doesn't put the basic boss to worker relationship into question.

Can you give me some other examples? Naturally I'm not everywhere in the world, I can say from my entire experience on this planet what it comes down to is that the reason people won't take an hour out of their lives to role on down to the ballot box is because they recognize that voting doesn't mean squat to them because it doesn't change anything, because 1 vote doesn't control anything.

I don't see how it is negative in the least, infact its those people who I've found easiest to reason with over to a Communist perspective because they already get the jist of the problem, whereas voters have this naive belief that they are actually doing something and that the existing political institutions represent them. I've meet tons of Trade Union dude who get the boss is out to fuck them, who understand the relationship of production, yet every year they role around to that old ballot box and drop their vote off for the next democrat. You forgetting the people who don't have a boss, the unemployed, the student who still vote, who still have a power in changing in the system. You're reducing this to a very narrow point of production perspective, when Class Struggle and Communist Consciousness doesn't always descend from that and its defining feature isn't always boss to worker exploitation.

Anyways got to get to work, because otherwise I'd be all negative and shit.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to say, but how can the EU be a reason for capitalism in Greece when Greece was capitalist before 1981?
Of course it was, but when it got on the EU it was the heavy wind that came and fucked us up. Not trying to say that 1981 was a golden season but compared to today you can see that capitalism is much more intense than before.

[Tim Cornelis]

Now that's a big assumption. I don't think it holds actually.
The primary political focus, concerning the European Union, is still the nation state. The political scenes are hardly "integrated" because of the existence of European mechanisms, but rather because of the social and economic crisis which puts very similar problems on the agenda all over the place (Europe, that is). Also, it's very hard to see just how Europe is united when you consider the existing inter-imperialist conflict in Europe (something which is disguised by flowery rhetoric), especially along the lines of the center and periphery.

Now of course, that doesn't mean that we should throw our support between concealed nationalist projects which emphasize the Union as a political and economic problem of the first order.

My comment may have given the impression that I put too much weight on the importance of the EU. At present Europe is not integrated, as you say. But the EU works more towards that point, especially economically. If the European economy is integrated and collapses, all of Europe collapses simultaneously, whereas now Germany's economy is booming and Greece's is in a depression.


Of course it was, but when it got on the EU it was the heavy wind that came and fucked us up. Not trying to say that 1981 was a golden season but compared to today you can see that capitalism is much more intense than before.

I don't think you can say capitalism "is more intense", sounds idealist tbh. Maybe you mean that the economy is worse than it was before and that this is due to the European Union.


this, but what can we expect? the kke only see national solutions for international issues.

http://www.english-test.net/forum/user_images/04052010113054.jpg

This picture doesn't say everything of course, may be meaningless rhetoric.


Can you give me some other examples? Naturally I'm not everywhere in the world, I can say from my entire experience on this planet what it comes down to is that the reason people won't take an hour out of their lives to role on down to the ballot box is because they recognize that voting doesn't mean squat to them because it doesn't change anything, because 1 vote doesn't control anything.

I don't see how it is negative in the least, infact its those people who I've found easiest to reason with over to a Communist perspective because they already get the jist of the problem, whereas voters have this naive belief that they are actually doing something and that the existing political institutions represent them. I've meet tons of Trade Union dude who get the boss is out to fuck them, who understand the relationship of production, yet every year they role around to that old ballot box and drop their vote off for the next democrat. You forgetting the people who don't have a boss, the unemployed, the student who still vote, who still have a power in changing in the system. You're reducing this to a very narrow point of production perspective, when Class Struggle and Communist Consciousness doesn't always descend from that and its defining feature isn't always boss to worker exploitation.

Anyways got to get to work, because otherwise I'd be all negative and shit.

I think what he was trying to say that simply not voting does not equal class consciousness. For example, I saw a Greek hotel owner (capitalist) being interviewed who said something along the lines "all politicians are the same, I'm not voting." Simple political apathy requires class consciousness as catalyst to have some revolutionary potential.

[Teacher]

Looks like Sarkozy just got sank as well

[Mindtoaster]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/05/201256165643443598.html

Syriza is now the second largest party in Greece at 15.5 - 18.5

[Rocky Rococo]

I'm finding lots of reports online about New Democracy, PASOK, Syriza, and Golden Dawn, but nothing at all about KKE, Democratic Left, LAOS and Antarsya. Any information about how those parties fared would be welcome.

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm finding lots of reports online about New Democracy, PASOK, Syriza, and Golden Dawn, but nothing at all about KKE, Democratic Left, LAOS and Antarsya. Any information about how those parties fared would be welcome.

here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/elections-greece-2012-t171241/index.html?t=171241)

Can someone explain to me why ANTARSYA ran as an independent party? In what way is it different than the KKE? More "anti-establishment" I imagine.

[Luís Henrique]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29

According to the polls I'm seeing, this party got in. That's pretty fucking bad, and I think that this is especially notable in Greece, where the global economic crisis is hitting hardest right now. When the economic crisis worsens in other areas, we might see this same result, unfortunately.

Indeed Marine Le Pen had a strong showing in France, even though the crisis there is by no means comparable to Greece.

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

I guess the KKE was punished for its BS during the recent protests, not gaining as much as SYRIZA, thankfully.

[Crux]

Leaving the EU is hardly an alternative.
Having spoken with fairly high up Synaspismos reps on EU matters though they fundamentally hold a very naive view on the EU. The EU removes control from the national parliament and exists for the sole purpose of serving the european big capitalists. Is leaving EU an alternative? well in and of itself it offers very little but I don't think a collapse of the EU as such is necessarily regressive, quite the opposite. The EU have not, will not and can not bring about any kind of unification on a european level.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Having spoken with fairly high up Synaspismos reps on EU matters though they fundamentally hold a very naive view on the EU. The EU removes control from the national parliament and exists for the sole purpose of serving the european big capitalists.

So why don't you advocate greater power for the EU parliament itself, if you're so concerned about the EU executive and administration having too much power vs. national parliaments? :glare:


Is leaving EU an alternative? well in and of itself it offers very little but I don't think a collapse of the EU as such is necessarily regressive, quite the opposite. The EU have not, will not and can not bring about any kind of unification on a european level.

Though requiring adaptation to modern circumstances, Marx and Engels' call for a unified German republic should inspire political unification and democratization demands with respect to the European Union.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Thread moved. :)

[Crux]

So why don't you advocate greater power for the EU parliament itself, if you're so concerned about the EU executive and administration having too much power vs. national parliaments? :glare:



Though requiring adaptation to modern circumstances, Marx and Engels' call for a unified German republic should inspire political unification and democratization demands with respect to the European Union.
Well, the main power is not with the european parliament anyway. I don't see a "reformed" EU as likely at all. Further more it is an undeniable fact that even the EU parliament, the democratic figleaf of the EU structures, moves power further away from those it is supposedly representing. But sure I am not *opposed* to democratic reform within the EU structure I just see it as very unlikely. Working class solidarity across europe is in no way dependent on the EU, which, again only serves the european big capitalists.

yes I know you are fond of reapparoprating terms and positions from actual revolutionaries to cover for your own reformism, thanks for demonstrating this once more.

[Q]

Here is an infographic of the election results (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/may/06/greece-elections-results-map). I made a screeny for the most important data:

http://oi49.tinypic.com/ipxwuf.jpg

There is a 3% treshhold for getting into parliament, so everything beneath that is to be ignored.

Further: A strictly "left" coalition of Syriza, Pasok, KKE and Dimar would get 137 out of 300 seats. So, if Syriza is to get into government, they will probably do so with ND.

In either case, Syriza in a coalition would spell the end of that party and would most likely have a negative effect for similar parties across Europe.

[Geiseric]

Well the EU is kind of a huge net of capital that works in conjunction with the rest of it, so how will Greece leaving the EU (Which I would assume does provide things for the region that wouldn't be there otherwise) fix the issue of inherit capitalism and the purpose greece holds in the international economy?

And holy shit, up 6.6%! That's crazy!

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well, the main power is not with the european parliament anyway. I don't see a "reformed" EU as likely at all. Further more it is an undeniable fact that even the EU parliament, the democratic figleaf of the EU structures, moves power further away from those it is supposedly representing. But sure I am not *opposed* to democratic reform within the EU structure I just see it as very unlikely.

You really like contradicting yourself, don't you? I mean, supposedly you Trots support "democratic demands," but you have no political demands at all at the EU level.


Working class solidarity across europe is in no way dependent on the EU, which, again only serves the european big capitalists.

And therein lies the problem. "Solidarity" is a very weak form of class unity. For economistic activists such as yourself, you haven't bothered looking into things like EU labour law, a clear sphere for unified political action. Ditto with intellectual property questions.


yes I know you are fond of reapparoprating terms and positions from actual revolutionaries to cover for your own reformism

By your nationalist standards, comrade Cockshott and a few other posters here are also somehow "reformists" for supporting continental unity beyond anti-austerity action and union solidarity. :rolleyes:

Oh, and you also didn't consider the possibility of staying in the EU, democratizing and raising the EU parliament's power, improving but converging labour and IP laws, and all that but getting out of the "euro"-zone. :glare:

[Crux]

Sorry DNZ but you seem to be out of your depth here. And yes as far as I understand Cockshot's position I consider it reformist. You desperate to call me a nationalist though is absolutely hilarious. Keep clutching for those straws. The EU labor law's are not worth the paper they are written on.

It's plain to see you have no idea what my position is, whilst yours is quite clear to anyone. Tell me when you're ready to stop knocking down straw-men. Or don't.

But to stay on topic I find KKE's position quite lacking too.

[Thirsty Crow]

Can you give me some other examples? Well, I tihnk I can, but that examples would fall into the category of anecdotal evidence (since I didn't really read any empirical studies on elections).
For example, some of the youth here where I live do consider elections useless and generally not something that affects them, but not because of their thoughts on the role of politics in society but rather because of their attitude towards life generally, which could be best described as narrowly individualist and even hedonistic in one way.




I don't see how it is negative in the least, infact its those people who I've found easiest to reason with over to a Communist perspective because they already get the jist of the problem, whereas voters have this naive belief that they are actually doing something and that the existing political institutions represent them. It's entirely negative since the statement, the attitude pertains only to what will not happen - a meaningful change through the ballot box. That's why I think it's an exaggeration to say that such an attitude represents a communist consciousness in and of itself (as I recall, those were the words you used).
Now, it's an entirely different matter that your experience with reasoning with them over to a communist perspective is the way it is. But this is something which will not always come about of itself.


You're reducing this to a very narrow point of production perspective, when Class Struggle and Communist Consciousness doesn't always descend from that and its defining feature isn't always boss to worker exploitation. But I think that still this represents a necessary feature of any kind of attitude which we might call "communist consciousness".
To clarify, this crisis has yet again shown (I'm talking here about my own experience) how broad layers of people are disillusioned with the political system and that they are more than ready to denounce them all. But here is precisely the problem, that only one aspect, only one institution (though a vitally important one) is singled out and trashed, all the while few people ask themselves some fundamental questions about their social life, questions of basic social reproduction (no need to term it that way) in capitalist society - the existence of an exploiting class, the reason for unemployment (still you can hear angry denouncing of the corrupt political class for not securing full employment; and on the other hand, there is a whole section of those broad layers, uncluding workers, who simultaneously dismiss the state, politicans and elections and degrade the unemployed as lazy bums).

To make myself clear, I do think that such attitudes represent at least a step in the right direction. But in and of itself it's merely one step, something which should be built upon and that's why I think it's necessary to be clear headed when dealing with mass disillusionment with the political system.

[Luís Henrique]

on the other hand, there is a whole section of those broad layers, uncluding workers, who simultaneously dismiss the state, politicans and elections and degrade the unemployed as lazy bums).

Indeed, there are people who think they are the same thing: politicians? lazy bums. Civil servants? Lazy bums. The unemployed? Lazy bums. Heck, immigrants? Lazy bums. Jews? Lazy bums.

It probably stems out of a very pro-capitalist ideology of (hard) labour.

And it can be an element of far-right ideology as much as, if not indeed more easily than, an element of class counsciousness.

Luís Henrique