Elections in Greece 2012

[Kornilios Sunshine]

EXIT POLLS (PREDICTIONS)

Here are the first approximate results (EXIT Poll) as of 19:00 from ANT1 Channel.
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/305585_218025621633685_1015917761_n.jpg
ND = 17%-20%
SYRIZA = 15,5% - 18,9%
PASOK = 14% - 17%
KKE = 7,5% - 9,5%
Independent Greeks = 10% - 12%
LAOS = 2,5% - 3,5%
Golden Dawn (NO!!!) = 6% - 8%
Ecologists = 2,5% - 3,5%
DIMAR = 4,5% - 6,5%
Dimokratiki Symmachia = 2% - 2,8%

SKAI Channel (Public Issue) prediction
http://a.media.newsbomb.gr/items/cache/7b491c5ea3e64e98b8b210ececc56fd1_XL.jpg?t=94391280 0
ND = 20,5% - 24,5%
SYRIZA = 14% - 18%
PASOK = 13% - 17%
KKE = 7,5% -10,5%
Independent Greeks = 7% - 10%
DIMAR = 6% - 9%
Golden Dawn = 5% - 8%
Ecologists = 2%- 4%
LAOS = 2% - 4%
Dimokratiki Simmachia = 1% - 3%
Drasi = 1% - 3%

MEGA TV PREDICTION
http://media.megatv.com/filesystem/images/20120506/engine/mega_o_53761_1144299_type12367.jpg
ND = 17% - 20%
SYRIZA = 15,5% - 18,5%
PASOK = 14% - 17%
Independent Greeks = 10% - 12%
KKE = 7,5% - 9,5%
Golden Dawn 6% - 8%
DIMAR = 4,5% - 6,5%
LAOS = 2,5% - 3,5%
Ecologists = 2,5% - 3,5%
Dimokratiki Simachia = 2% - 2,8%
Drasi = 2% - 2,8%
Dimiourgia Xana = 1,9% - 2,5%
ANTARSYA = 1,2% - 2%
Others = 2% - 4%

First National Results (SKAI TV, Singular Logic)
In 1.269/20.605 voting stations in Greece

http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/epikrateia_1.jpg
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/epikrateia_2.jpg

ΝD = 22,3%
PASOK = 15,2%
SYRIZA = 14,3%
Independent Greeks = 10,1%
ΚΚΕ= 8,2%
Golden Dawn = 6,7%
DIMAR = 5,8%


THESE ARE NOT ACTUAL FINAL RESULTS.WILL KEEP THIS UPDATED FOR OTHER RESULTS AND THE FINAL ONES.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

HERE ARE THE FINAL APPROXIMATE RESULTS ACCORDING TO SINGULAR LOGIC(STILL UPDATING!)
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/singular.jpg
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/singular_1.jpg
ND = 19,2% and 109 MP positions
SYRIZA = 16,3% and 50 MP positions
PASOK = 13,6% and 42 MP positions
Independent Greeks = 10,5% and 32 MP positions
KKE = 8,5% and 26 MP positions
Golden Dawn = 7% and 22 MP positions
DIMAR = 6% and 19 MP positions
Ecologists = 2,9%
LAOS = 2,9%
Dimokratiki Simmachia = 2,7%
Creation! Again = 2,1%
Action = 1,7%
ANTARSYA = 1,2%
Social Symphony = 1%

[Kornilios Sunshine]

OFFICIAL RESULTS

ND = 18,9% and 108 MP seats
SYRIZA = 16,8% and 52 MP seats
PASOK = 13,2% and 41 MP seats
Independent Greeks = 10,6% and 32 MP seats
KKE = 8,5% and 26 MP seats
Golden Dawn = 7,0% and 21 MP seats
DIMAR = 6,1% and 19 MP seats
Ecologists = 2,7%
LAOS = 2,8%
Dimokratiki Simmachia = 2,6%
Creation! Again = 1,9%
Action = 1,5%
ANTARSYA = 1,1%
Social Symphony = 0,9%
"I don't pay" movement = 0,8%
OCHI(NO) = 0,8%
National Union Link = 0,6%
Centralists Union = 0,5%
Pirate Party of Greece = 0,4%
Society = 0,4%
KKE M-L & (M-L)KKE = 0,2%
EEK = 0,1%
Liberal Party = 0,06%
Independent Candidates = 0,06%
OAKKE = 0,05%
OKDE = 0,03%
KEAN= 0,01%


Yes ND ONCE AGAIN at the goverment, PASOK down , Independent Greeks one more nationalist party at the Greek Parliament, we had the SYRIZA HUGE increase ever, Golden Dawn nazis in parliament and 9 parties at the parliament total. LAOS conservatists out of the parliament. Greek voters once again with full of shit in their heads. They will even wait for Golden Dawn to become goverment and then do something to take it down just like in the Junta, hope this will never happen again though.

[pax et aequalitas]

[COLOR=Red][U]
SYRIZA = 15,6% and 28 MP positions
PASOK = 14,2% and 43 MP positions


I'm not really aware of how the stuff works in Greece, but this seems rather odd.

[brigadista]

just heard on the news here there will be a coalition government - is this correct?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I'm not really aware of how the stuff works in Greece, but this seems rather odd.
By MP positions I mean how many MPs are going to be on the party e.g. 112 New Democracy Parliament Members in the Parliament.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

just heard on the news here there will be a coalition government - is this correct?
Well not sure yet, it's still on the air.Will keep ya updated though.

[Omsk]

This situation worries me.How many power does the Golden Dawn de-facto have?(Influence,seats,voting power,power among the poor strata.)

[brigadista]

please do -loving your work here :):) @ KommounistisGR

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Annoying that percentage votes often don't translate into fair seat distributions for smaller parties, otherwise Syriza could have been a huge headache for the ND, PASOK etc.

What, generally, are Syriza's politics? They and the KKE have enough popular support, it would seem, to move towards offensive tactics (i.e. not just passively participating in the parliament).

Also, what are the politics of the independent greeks?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

This situation worries me.How many power does the Golden Dawn de-facto have?(Influence,seats,voting power,power among the poor strata.)
Let me tell you. It was voted by 137.564 Greeks and raised up to 6,5% points since 2009. 21 Seats still powerful. The thing is that people voted them because they thought Golden Dawn would get rid of all the immigrants. If that happens, those people will be killed and Golden Dawn will prove its fascist and antihuman identity. I wouldn't worry for that party as I would worry for the opportunist SYRIZA, which was increased very very much , but it got its votes from exPASOK voters, because of the fact their positions look alike the PASOK. (Have a ""left""" goverment inside the EU)

[Kornilios Sunshine]

please do -loving your work here :):) @ KommounistisGR
Thank you very much comrade :D

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Annoying that percentage votes often don't translate into fair seat distributions for smaller parties, otherwise Syriza could have been a huge headache for the ND, PASOK etc.

What, generally, are Syriza's politics? They and the KKE have enough popular support, it would seem, to move towards offensive tactics (i.e. not just passively participating in the parliament).

Also, what are the politics of the independent greeks?
SYRIZA are supposed to be leftists but actually they are a bunch of opportunists or should I say, PASOK alike. They want Greece in EU but under a left goverment,bullshit this cannot be done, unless the goverment is not left. As far as Independent Greeks are concerned, they are some shitty nationalist Neo-Greeks who believe in their Motherland. You get it I think. Something "lighter" than Golden Dawn.

[Aurora]

Thanks for posting results.



What, generally, are Syriza's politics? They and the KKE have enough popular support, it would seem, to move towards offensive tactics (i.e. not just passively participating in the parliament).

SYRIZA are a coalition group, the largest section Synaspismos is social-democratic and the smaller sections are Trotskyist, Maoist and Green.

[X5N]

Commie Jesus, Golden Dawn is going to get twenty seats? I wasn't expecting them to get more than, say, a dozen.

They must be smashed.

[TheMyth]

http://national12.ekloges.dolnet.gr/index.php

[Tabarnack]

May 6, 2012, 4:16 p.m. ET
Greek Syriza Leader: Will Seek Talks With Other Left-Wing Parties

ATHENS (Dow Jones)--Greece's leftist Syriza party, which looks set to take second place in Sunday's national elections, will seek to hook up with other left wing parties to form a government, its president said.
In a televised statement, the leader of the Coalition of the Radical Left party, also known as Syriza, Alexis Tsipras, said he will stick by his commitment to annul Greece's austerity package.
"The parties that signed the memorandum now form a minority. Their signatures have been deligitimised by the people," he said.
"The people showed at the ballot that national salvation does not go through the memorandum."
With some 35% of the vote counted, Syriza trailed conservatives New Democracy and is backed by about 15% of voters. New Democracy was in first place, backed by just over 20% of voters.
Minutes later, the Communist Party of Greece ruled out teaming up with Syriza.
-By Jenny Paris and Stelios Bouras, Dow Jones Newswires; +30-210-3731772; [email protected]

[Krano]

God i hate bourgeois democracy.

[NewLeft]

Golden Dawn: "be afraid"

[Vninect]

[B]
ND = 20,4% and 112 MP positions
SYRIZA = 15,6% and 28 MP positions
PASOK = 14,2% and 43 MP positions


Syriza is currently at 50 MP positions, while Pasok and ND both went down 1.

Others unchanged.

That 28 number is far off the mark. Typo, I assume.

Greek site:
http://national12.ekloges.dolnet.gr/index.php

Guardian interactive map:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/may/06/greece-elections-results-map?newsfeed=true

[MaximMK]

I heard that SYRIZA and Independent greeks wont makea coalition because SYRIZA wanted to let macedonia join on the NATO summit with its constitutional name something that the independent greeks do not want. Since KKE wont go with any other party the only solution is SYRIZA and PASOK to form a coalition. But i think there will be no government and new elections will be held... we will see when all votes are counted. I hope SYRIZA figures something out and forms the government not those conservative right wing ND.

[brigadista]

watching greece v closely here in england - been to greece many times- unfortunately cant speak greek but stayed once in the house of an old greek partisan couple - i have to tell you they were very inspiring -
very interested in what happens

[Die Neue Zeit]

I wouldn't worry for that party as I would worry for the opportunist SYRIZA

Speak for yourself, given your own party's BS conduct during the recent protests.

[Crux]

Thanks for posting results.


SYRIZA are a coalition group, the largest section Synaspismos is social-democratic and the smaller sections are Trotskyist, Maoist and Green.
And synaspismos in turn has internal tendencies but on the whole socialdemocratic would be pretty much correct. That our local KKE guy in this thread finds the rise of SYRIZA more worrying than the rise of Golden Dawn says something though...

[Luís Henrique]

That our local KKE guy in this thread finds the rise of SYRIZA more worrying than the rise of Golden Dawn says something though...

As Marx wrote once, the first time as tragedy, the second as farce, but it is Third Period all over again.

And of course, the point of Syriza (and DIMAR) taking votes from PASOK is that they oppose the austerity policies that PASOK favour - which is somewhat mirrored in the right, with Independent Greeks and Golden Dawn taking votes from New Democracy for similar reasons: opposition to austerity policies against ND's support for them. So the analysis that Syriza takes votes from PASOK because the politics are similar misses the precise difference that made voters move from one to another...

Greece seems to be ingovernable atm, new elections are likely to be called quite soon. The point is, what should leftists do in a situation of ingovernability?

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

well not really...KKE always agitated against Syriza more than against GD.

[RedSide]

The voters of PASOK, SYRIZA, and Democratic Left are social democrats. Actually Syriza has a "left" side but Synaspismos is the dominant force in Syriza. Tsipras used "coalition of the left" rhetorics (kke and DL didn't accept his proposal) that helped him attract a great part of Pasok voters. He is charismatic, young and promises a renegotioation of the bailout agreement and that his left government will solve all the problems without greece leaving the eurozone.:rolleyes:. He didn't even mention the words capitalism or socialism during his campaign. People just want to keep their way of life without sacrificing or risking anything so he is the obvious solution for angry PASOK voters.

I think that the rise of Golden Dawn was expected. They were presented as an antisystemic party that every other party(+ the press) was attacking before the elections so around 400000 shitheads decided that it was a good idea to vote these monkeys:crying: in order to punish the corrupt politicians. This kind of logic goes back to the indignados movement. The top part of Syntagma Square was mostly consisted of people carrying 53523523 greek flags each, talking about hanging all the politicians, burning the parliament and stuff like that.

What was a big surprise (and disappointment) to me was that KKE lost votes in every big city (Athens,Piraeus,Thessaloniki).

Edit: My bad, Syriza doesnt want to negotiate but reject the bailout! Haven't slept yet, so I'm excused:P

[Luís Henrique]

What was a big surprise (and disappointment) to me was that KKE lost votes in every big city (Athens,Piraeus,Thessaloniki).

It is not a surprise at all.

It is what happens when you have a politics of class collaboration - but in fact reject all collaboration with other political forces that could give flesh and bones to such politics.

Luís Henrique

[X5N]

Shame ANTARSYA didn't win any seats.

But at least PASOK/ND aren't going to be able to form a coalition together (from what I hear).

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Syriza is currently at 50 MP positions, while Pasok and ND both went down 1.

Others unchanged.

That 28 number is far off the mark. Typo, I assume.

Greek site:
http://national12.ekloges.dolnet.gr/index.php

Guardian interactive map:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/may/06/greece-elections-results-map?newsfeed=true
Oops. Sorry about that corrected it.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

It is not a surprise at all.

It is what happens when you have a politics of class collaboration - but in fact reject all collaboration with other political forces that could give flesh and bones to such politics.

Luís Henrique
True KKE didn't got votes because it rejected to colaborate with SYRIZA, and you are telling me that SYRIZA can stop class colaboration? SYRIZA wants that and in colaboration with KKE,well this cannot happen!They have many differences in their politics.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

That our local KKE guy in this thread finds the rise of SYRIZA more worrying than the rise of Golden Dawn says something though...
What does this say? I am more worried because now with SYRIZA, people will not protest, thinking that SYRIZA and ND are going to solve their problems. However, I am sure there are going to be many protests about Golden Fart from leftists. I am as worried for SYRIZA as for Golden Dawn in the long run.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

during the recent protests.
Can you define recent? When it was?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Antonis Samaras, New Democracy's leader wants to request his own goverment by Karolos Papoulias, the president of the country but Antonis Samaras needs another "partner" for this goverment. He is probably going to ask it from Venizelos, the PASOK leader, who is likely going to reject this.

[RedPersonality]

Apparently we will have again elections on 17th of June.
They can't form a goverment.

[Delenda Carthago]

Speak for yourself, given your own party's BS conduct during the recent protests.



- A government of the left, ie, has no need of industrialists and investors?

-On the contrary. It needs a healthy business climate. It needs merit laws. Because no serious investor will not come to a country which is a boiling cauldron, which has turned Nigeria to Europe.Alexis Tsipras, NET TV 2/5/2012

http://www.zougla.gr/blog/article/523056


This is who YOU are. Not only Tsipras, not only SYRIZA, not only DieLinke, the whole European Left. Its funny how KKE gets shit by all these "ultra revolutionaries" while in context you are just the left foot of capitalism.

[Triple A]

So from what i get KKE would rather have right wing in power fucking the millions of greeks than have to cooperate with syriza and realise we are not in 1917 anymore.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

So from what i get KKE would rather have right wing in power fucking the millions of greeks than have to cooperate with syriza and realise we are not in 1917 anymore.
Yes, you got it. If SYRIZA was elected, we would be in the same shit as with PASOK and ND! They all have the same politics which serve capitalism, despite SYRIZA believeng they are leftitists themselves. A KKE-SYRIZA cannot happen because these two parties have completely different politics,in economy terms at least.

[Luís Henrique]

True KKE didn't got votes because it rejected to colaborate with SYRIZA, and you are telling me that SYRIZA can stop class colaboration?

No, I didn't say anything like that.

What I said is quite different: that the KKE cannot break with class collaboration either - but it pretends otherwise, and for that reason cannot even be consistent in their politics of class collaboration. It cannot also break with parliamentary politics - which is the reason that its adherents are "surprised" by the mediocre results - but it cannot succeed in it (of, course, since the PASOK voters are "social-democrats" - and I suppose the voters of ND are neoliberals, or whatchamacallit - the KKE cannot take their votes, otherwise it you would have to say about it what you are now saying about Syriza). So their politics are a dead end in themselves; what is surprising is not that it had so few votes, but that it still has any votes at all.

Luís Henrique

[Sasha]

KKE is as much the left-wing of capital as SYRIZA, just more authoritarian and inept...
I rather have a spectacle that gives the people ipods than a spectacle that gives the people breadlines...
Freedom and socialism will be won on the streets, and im afraid the KKE and GD will be the last defenders of the old order..

[Luís Henrique]

Yes, you got it. If SYRIZA was elected, we would be in the same shit as with PASOK and ND! They all have the same politics which serve capitalism, despite SYRIZA believeng they are leftitists themselves. A KKE-SYRIZA cannot happen because these two parties have completely different politics,in economy terms at least.

Ergo, Greece cannot form a government, for PASOK-ND, PASOK-Syriza, or ND-Syriza, or ND-Golden Dawn, or ND-Greek Independents, or Golden Dawn-Greek Independents are also impossible coallitions at this moment.

Which means that we are going to have new elections soon - in June 17, if I correctly understand - and that the KKE will again put its hopes into an electoral campaign, that it will again run an electoral campaign under a reformist program and with a reformist strategy - and an incongruent tactic, that ostensibly rejects reformism and makes their strategy ineffective - and will again be beaten in the ballot, to the renewed surprise of its supporters...

And since the June 17 elections will quite probably result in another quagmire, the KKE will repeat the process, making "gains" of 1% or 0.5% each time, while Syriza or the Greek Independents or Golden Dawn will actually compete for the dissatisfaction of Greek voters.

The problem now is, no democratic vote is going to give a workable majority to the only solution capital has to offer Greece (recession and "austerity"). And so either capitalism or democracy has to go. Parties that work on the fiction that a capitalist solution without disenfranchising the electorate is possible are doomed to defeat, either in the short or the long run.

Luís Henrique

[Tim Cornelis]

Alexis Tsipras, NET TV 2/5/2012

http://www.zougla.gr/blog/article/523056


This is who YOU are. Not only Tsipras, not only SYRIZA, not only DieLinke, the whole European Left. Its funny how KKE gets shit by all these "ultra revolutionaries" while in context you are just the left foot of capitalism.

How are we on the "left foot of capitalism"?

[Crux]

For the record I would most likely have voted for ANTARSYA had I been in greece.

[Luís Henrique]

The most polemic issues in Greece seem to be the following:

1. Austerity (pro: ND & PASOK, 149 seats; against: SYRIZA, Ind. Greeks, KKE, Golden Dawn, DIMAR, 151 seats);

2. Europe (pro: ND, PASOK, SYRIZA, Ind. Greeks, DIMAR, 253 seats; against: KKE & Golden Dawn, 47 seats);

3. Immigration: (pro: SYRIZA, PASOK, KKE, DIMAR, 138 seats; unclear: ND & Ind. Greeks, 141 seats; against, Golden Dawn, 21 seats)

All this superimposed into the traditional left/right divide (left: SYRIZA, PASOK, KKE, DIMAR, 138 seats; right: ND, Ind. Greeks, Golden Dawn, 162 seats).

As we can see, a pro-austerity government is impossible unless some party changes positions; an anti-austerity government is impossible unless the deep divides between the anti-austerities on the other issues can be somehow superated. A pro-Europe government is impossible without ND and PASOK, which means, without somebody changing positions or austerity becoming a non-issue; an anti-Europe government is completely impossible. A pro-immigration government is only possible if austerity and Europe somehow become non-issues, and would depend on Ind. Greeks or ND taking a firm stand on the issue; an anti-immigration government is impossible unless Ind. Greeks and ND go anti-immigration and ND changes policies regarding austerity. A left government is impossible given the various divisions among the leftist parties (PASOK's pro-austerity stance, KKE's anti-Europe position); a right government is impossible for similar reasons, plus the extreme positions of Golden Dawn, that make unlikely for ND and Ind. Greeks to work with them at this point.

Plus, any government without ND will be weak in the Parliament, due to the huge size of ND's caucus; but any government with ND will be weak outside the parliament, given the evident illegitimacy of the "bonus" seats it won because it had a nominal advantage over Syriza (16.67% of seats hinged on 2.1% of voters); Greek constitution has foolishly staked the parliament against the nation, and poised it to self-destruction. Which we all shall be watching in the following weeks.

Luís Henrique

[Blake's Baby]

So the Greeks have voted for a pro-Europe, anti-austerity, ambivalent-about-foreigners government?

[Luís Henrique]

So the Greeks have voted for a pro-Europe, anti-austerity, ambivalent-about-foreigners government?

I think they have voted against austerity, but have split their anti-austerity vote among pro- and anti-Europe, pro- and anti-immigration, and left and right anti-austerity options.

Luís Henrique

[Delenda Carthago]

How are we on the "left foot of capitalism"?
What are you? Anarchist or euroleftist?

[Delenda Carthago]

So from what i get KKE would rather have right wing in power fucking the millions of greeks than have to cooperate with syriza and realise we are not in 1917 anymore.
KKE would rather not work with any political power that does not quiestion the power of Capital over Labour no matter if they label themselves "Left" or "Right". You as an anarchist should applause that.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

What are you? Anarchist or euroleftist?

What in the world is a "euroleftist"? :confused:

[aneczka]

That our local KKE guy in this thread finds the rise of SYRIZA more worrying than the rise of Golden Dawn says something though...

Is it true, that the KKE itself is pretty conservative for a supposed revolutionary party, also when it comes to the immigration? Also remember the members of PAME welcoming nazis to the steel strike. The stalinists never had and never will have clear methods. To the extent that I think it's very possible for them to use the nazis against political opponents. Sure they will at least cheer at nazis beating anarchists and others up.

[Per Levy]

What in the world is a "euroleftist"? :confused:

i guess he means the partys that are united in the european left fraction of the eu parliament, they're mostly social-dems who are a bit to the left of normal social-dem parties like the uk labour or the german spd. that or he means euro-communists.

[Delenda Carthago]

What in the world is a "euroleftist"? :confused:
The EU parliament "Left, parties like SYRIZA, Blocko, DieLinke etc.

[Alaz]

What in the world is a "euroleftist"? :confused:



The word indicates the ideological deviation and the "new current" in the left popularized mostly right after the attenuation of the USSR, based on raising the struggle of identities (such as sex, nation) while leaving the class perspective behind and conflicting with the revolutionary essence historical progress, thus; turning the struggle into a reformist civil rights movements and restricting itself within the limits of political scene of the capital, and in time becoming more of a "humanitarian" tool for the system to repair its deficiencies and used in order to canalize potential energy of popular movements and/or class oriented movements that could get radicalized, to bourgeois ideology.

[Vninect]

The word indicates the ideological deviation and the "new current" in the left popularized mostly right after the attenuation of the USSR, based on raising the struggle of identities (such as sex, nation) while leaving the class perspective behind and conflicting with the revolutionary essence historical progress, thus; turning the struggle into a reformist civil rights movements and restricting itself within the limits of political scene of the capital, and in time becoming more of a "humanitarian" tool for the system to repair its deficiencies and used in order to canalize potential energy of popular movements and/or class oriented movements that could get radicalized, to bourgeois ideology.
Shorter sentences?

I think what you're saying is: After the USSR attenuated, the majority of the left started to focus on identity struggles (e.g. sex, nation), rather than class struggle. Thus, they became a reformist civil rights movement, within the limits of the capitalist logic. It offers a "humanitarian" face to the system and diverts energy from popular and/or class oriented movements, to a bourgeois ideology.

I suppose it only or mainly happens in Europe, for it to be called Euroleftist?

[Crux]

i guess he means the partys that are united in the european left fraction of the eu parliament, they're mostly social-dems who are a bit to the left of normal social-dem parties like the uk labour or the german spd. that or he means euro-communists.
If so that's funny because: http://www.guengl.eu/showPage.php?ID=10&LANG=1&GLANG=1
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/99419/%CE%A7%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%BC%CF%80%C E%BF%CF%82_%CE%91%CE%93%CE%93%CE%9F%CE%A5%CE%A1%CE %91%CE%9A%CE%97%CE%A3.html
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/28584/%CE%93%CE%B5%CF%8E%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_% CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%A5%CE%A3%CE%A3%CE%91%CE%A3.html

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Greece seems to be ingovernable atm, new elections are likely to be called quite soon. The point is, what should leftists do in a situation of ingovernability?

Luís Henrique

Celebrate, and open the possibility (in the public debate, via KKE, Syriza etc.) of the alteration of the political system i.e. extra-parliamentary measures.

Capital would then be forced to either back down, or more likely try to respond with force (i.e. a Monti/Papedemos style installation, but this time with force!).

Both scenarios would probably result in Greece leaving the Euro. Not sure what that would mean, in realpolitik terms, for Hollande's 'new start' in the rest of Europe. I'm somewhat unsure of how Greece staying/leaving the Euro will affect policy in the rest of the eurozone, but it seems pretty key that what happens to Greece in terms of:

a) the political instability
b) austerity, currency issues

will plot a path for either the restoration of the Euro project, or its demise.

We will see.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The problem now is, no democratic vote is going to give a workable majority to the only solution capital has to offer Greece (recession and "austerity"). And so either capitalism or democracy has to go. Parties that work on the fiction that a capitalist solution without disenfranchising the electorate is possible are doomed to defeat, either in the short or the long run.

Luís Henrique

Don't you mean neoliberalism specifically, as opposed to capitalism? :confused:


The EU parliament "Left, parties like SYRIZA, Blocko, DieLinke etc.

The GUE-NGL is at least a step forward in continental worker unity, as opposed to nationalist opportunism of all stripes (including "international" fan clubs of some national Trotskyist group).

"For once" (polemically), I actually agree with Maja and his links to KKE members in the GUE-NGL.

[Crux]

I am sorry but that is absolute nonsense that you keep spouting over and over. The GUE-NGL is *not* a step towards unity, it is a technical alliance in the european parliament. That you can not see the difference between the two further displays, as if that would be needed, the weakness and absurdity of your perspectives. Indeed that both KKE and SYRIZA are in the GUE-NGL group shows this too. That KKE seem to share your illusions in that body, although from the opposite direction, does not make either of your position any less detached from reality.

[Geiseric]

For the record I would most likely have voted for ANTARSYA had I been in greece.

I just did a bit of research and I like what I saw so far, but it said that the vote went down in the last election, do you know why?

[Crux]

AFAIK this is the first general election ANTARSYA has contested in it's current form and in the last locals they had a minor breakthrough in a constituency in Athens. On the whole they are pretty small but their current perspectives both in their critique of KKE and SYRIZA and in their calls for left unity are quite clear. My understanding is that they previously held a slightly more sectarian position, not in the same ballpark as KKE though. But they seem to have risen to the occasion. My comrades in Xekinima have cooperated with them more post our departure from SYRIZA. And we called for a vote for them in this election, as well as calling for votes, critically of course, for the KKE and SYRIZA.

[Mindtoaster]

Syriza to seek to form a ruling coalition of the radical left


Greece's radical leftist Syriza party is to start trying to build an anti-austerity cabinet and prevent fresh elections, a day after the conservatives failed to form a coalition government.

Alexis Tsipras, Syriza's leader, is holding talks with President Carolos Papoulias on Tuesday and will be given three days to form a government.

The meeting comes as debt-laden Greece faces stern warnings from Germany and the EU to stick to its bailout deal.

"We will exhaust all possibilities to reach an understanding, primarily with the forces of the left," Tsipras said ahead of the meeting.

The conservative New Democracy party's failure to form a government underscored Greece's precarious situation, with the country needing bailout funds to stay afloat, but where painful austerity measures have given rise to widespread voter anger.

The euro and world stock markets sank on Monday after voters kicked out the Greek government in weekend elections and voted in a Socialist president of France in a backlash against austerity, but Asian markets rebounded Tuesday.

Al Jazeera’s John Psaropoulos, reporting from Athens, said: "There are fewer chances today, I think, of forming consensual government than we had yesterday when the largest party, the Conservatives, was trying its hands at it."

"Today it’s the radical left, Syriza, who really want a sort of leftist coalition of the communists and other left parties.

"There is a great deal of digesting to be done of the results here. The idea that Greece doesn’t have a stable government is still sinking in."

Fiscal pact

The political developments in France and Greece had stoked anxiety about the fate of the EU's tough fiscal pact adopted in March to try to end the eurozone's crippling debt crisis.

New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras said on Monday his efforts to form a "national salvation" administration had failed, meaning that Syriza, as the runner-up in Sunday's election, would now be tasked with forming a government.


-Vangelis Agapitos, an independent economist, speaks to Al Jazeera from Athens

"I did whatever I could to secure a result but it was impossible," Samaras said in a televised address after a day of separate meetings with fellow leaders.

Samaras, 60, was rebuffed by Syriza and the small Democratic Left group, while the nationalist Independent Greeks and the Communist party refused to even meet with him.

Third-placed socialist party PASOK, which was formerly in a coalition with New Democracy, agreed to co-operate but only if the leftists also joined.

The snub to Samaras suggests that Greece's political parties are paying more attention to the punishing message sent by voters fed up with austerity measures than to worries about the future of the euro or warnings from Berlin and Brussels.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the chief proponent of austerity as the main way out of the eurozone crisis, said on Monday that it was "of utmost importance" that Greece stuck to its reform path, although conceding this was "difficult".

A spokeswoman for the European Commission said Brussels "hopes and expects that the future government of Greece will respect the engagements that Greece has entered into".

'New elections'

Tsipras, who described the election results as a "message of overthrow", has said he would seek to form a left-wing coalition to reject the "barbaric" measures of the EU-IMF loan agreement that saved Greece from fiscal collapse.

The country, in its fifth year of recession with unemployment at 20 per cent, is committed to finding in June another $15bn in savings over the next two years.

New Democracy and PASOK, which have alternated in power since 1974, saw their share of the vote collapse to 32.1 per cent on Sunday from 77.4 per cent at the last election as voters supported instead a raft of anti-austerity parties.

This left the two parties, which favour sticking to the bailout but with easier terms, with 149 MPs in the 300-seat parliament, insufficient for a re-run of the outgoing coalition led by technocrat Lucas Papademos.

Instead, voters angry after two years of cuts handed parties wanting to tear up the agreements a total of 151 parliamentary seats between them, including the leftist Syriza, which with 52 seats relegated PASOK to third place.

The others included the far-right Golden Dawn with 21 seats, the right-wing Independent Greeks with 33 MPs and the communist KKE with 26.

Berenberg Bank economist Holger Schmieding warned there was a risk that "Europe could turn off the flow of support funds and thus force Greece to leave the euro".

Economist Guillaume Menuet of Citi said there was "significant potential" for Greece to miss its next round of targets and a 50-to-75-per cent chance of what he called a "Grexit" within 12 to 18 months

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/05/20125855522726156.html


Anyone familiar with KKE know if they will likely join this?

[Crux]

Take a look at this thread, man.

[KurtFF8]

It seems that the KKE rejected talks about forming a government with SYRIZ.

[NoPasaran1936]

What, KKE...no revolution?

[Crux]

with their steady growth of under a percent per election expect the revolution in about well they are at 8.48% right now, so depending on how many elections some 30-40 years.

[Tabarnack]

with their steady growth of under a percent per election expect the revolution in about well they are at 8.48% right now, so depending on how many elections some 30-40 years.

I would expect them to loose one or two points in the next election as the left vote converge towards Syriza...

[Tabarnack]

Crisis escalates as insurrection breaks German control of Europe

The political dam has broken in Europe. German Chancellor Angela Merkel no longer has enough allies in the club of EU prime ministers to impose her hairshirt agenda. Her methodical plans are disintegrating on every front.

The immediate fate of Greece - and the euro - is in the hands of a boyish motorcycle Marxist. Syriza leader deal Alexis Tsipras has vowed to tear up the hated Memorandum, as the EU-IMF "troika" loan package is known.
He showed no sign of backing off as he met his country's president and began talks on the formation of an implausible Left front. "The popular verdict clearly renders the bailout null and void," he said.

To those who warn that such defiance means an unstoppable lurch towards full default, a banking crash and EMU expulsion, he retorts that Greece has the "ultimate weapon". It can bring down the whole European system if EU leaders refuse to soften the terms.

This bluff may be called. "Patience among the creditor countries is running out," said Blanka Kolenikova from IHS Global Insight. Germany's media says finance minister Wolfgang Schauble is itching to force Greece out of the euro as a salutary example, sure that Europe is strong enough to withstand the shock. This, in turn, is an illusion waiting to be punctured.

Arnaud Mares from Morgan Stanley said a Greek exit would set off "massive deposit flight" from all the vulnerable EMU states. "It could unravel the single currency altogether."
It is an dangerous moment for Europe and global markets. Greece has no functioning goverment. It must decide on a series of bond repayments, starting this week. Tough choices will not wait until fresh elections in June, should they occur.

The new bonds issued after private investors suffered a 75pc haircut in March are already trading at levels of extreme distress, with 21pc yields on 10-year debt. The EU deal to end all deals has collapsed after just two months.

The disastrous chain of events has essentially discredited the entire crisis policy imposed on Europe by Germany. Combined fiscal and moneary contraction has pushed much of southern Europe into a deflation "death spiral", pulling the rest of Europe down with a delay. Even The Netherlands is now in deep recessoin.

Revolt was inevitable. It has finally occured. The European Commission on Tuesday called for an immediate investment blitz to stop the downward slide. This follows hard on the heels of a call by European Central Bank chief Mario Draghi for a "growth compact". The EU insistutions are slipping out of Germany's control.

The election of François Hollande in France has radically altered Europe's balance of power, and popular fury has done the rest across a string of democracies.

There are signs that Italy may start to tuck in behind France, picking away at the EU Fiscal Compact. Silvio Berlusconi's People of Liberty party said it will not back treaty ratification unless it includes eurobonds and turns the ECB into a lender-of-last-resort. The party rebuked Italy's premier Mario Monti for behaving as "Germany's representative".

The party's abrupt shift follows an electoral rout over the weekend in North Italy, where anti-euro maverick Beppe Grillo won 20pc of the vote in Parma and 15pc in Genoa.

Mr Monti cannot push the treaty through without Mr Berlusconi's blessing. The carefully-crafted plans for ratification in Berlin and Rome on the same day are in tatters.

Mrs Merkel said she will embrace Mr Hollande with open arms but on policy substance she has carried on as if the insurrection never happened. "The fiscal pact is not negotiable," she said, insisting that EU treaties cannot be reopened once parliaments have begun to ratify. This is not true. The European Constitution was abanondoned after France and The Netherlands voted "No" in referendums in 2005.

Berlin hopes to assuage Paris with a beefed up role for the European Investment Bank and a growth compact, perhaps tacked on as an annexe to the fiscal treaty. Officals at the Kanzleramt think Mr Hollande's rhetoric was campaign hot air, and that he will switch tack like German Social Democrat Gerhard Schroder a decade ago once in office.

This may be a misjudgment, failing to catch the mood of fury in Europe. Mr Hollande was emphatic in his victory speech. "My mission is now to give Europe growth, jobs, prosperity and a future. We are not doomed to austerity," he said. They may call him "Flanby" in France after a brand of caramel pudding but his mildnesss disguises a steely side, and his Socialist base is not to be trifled with.

For Germany it is a moment of truth. Berlin has put off hard choices since the crisis began. It has refused eurobonds or budget transfers, stepping back from the Rubicon of fiscal union.

Mrs Merkel has insisted on austerity and reforms alone, imposing the full burden of adjustement on the weaker states. She has brushed aside arguments the EMU's crisis is in essence a North-South imbalance in trade and capital flows that cannot be corrected in this fashion within a currency union.

Her government has ignored warnings that simultaneous contraction in the whole of southern Europe - without offseting monetary stimulus or expansion in North Europe - can only lead to a replay of the Gold Standard errors of the early 1930s.

This phase of the crisis over. Now Germany itself will have to adjust.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/9253207/Crisis-escalates-as-insurrection-breaks-German-control-of-Europe.html

[Luís Henrique]

Syriza to seek to form a ruling coalition of the radical left

It is pretty clear that such effort will fail.

The anti-austerity parties sum 151 parliamentary seats (in 300), which mean they can only form a majority if they can all unite. This means Syriza, KKE, DIMAR... and Independent Greeks... and Golden Dawn. Evidently at this moment nobody wants Golden Dawn's company, not even the Independent Greeks, much less Syriza. Or the KKE. Or DIMAR.

Things wouldn't change much even if PASOK somehow made a public autocritic, denounced austerity, and completely changed position. Their 41 chairs could replace Golden Dawn's 21, but not Golden Dawn's 21 and Independent Greeks 33. Not even indeed Golden Dawn's 21 and KKE's 26 taken together. So it would be necessary that New Democracy both reverted its policies and agreed to play second fiddle in government, albeit having the double seats than Syriza's; the chances for that are minimal - and even if it happened, it would mean an extremely unstable government, vulnerable even to a handfull of ND MPs rebelling against their leadership.

What comes next if (when) Syriza fails? Does the president call the PASOK (and will he have to call all the parties one by one, down to DIMAR)?

With ND resigning the responsibility of forming government, the absurd of the bonus seats attributed to the most voted party becomes even more apparent - the measure, designed to increase stability by affording some gratis seats to the government party, now increases instability by affording those seats to a potential opposition party!

Is there a possibility of a minority government? On what conditions? Or a government has to have a majority?

A new election is on sight, in my opinion, and will probably punish the parties seen as obstructing the forming of a new government; I expect considerable losses for the KKE. Part of its voters won't understand loosing the opportunity to form a "left government" and will defect to Syriza and/or DIMAR. I fear as well an increase in Golden Dawn's votes, especially if ND or the Independent Greeks make some blunder (ND and PASOK will have no longer the benefits of being government, so further losses for them are to be expected regardless). If that happens, particularly if Golden Dawn breaks into double digits, wins some important or symbolic cities, or if it is still impossible to form a government, I fear that Greece may be in its path to fascism.

Luís Henrique

[TheRedAnarchist23]

According to results 100% of people voted, this makes no sence, they must not be revealing the number of people who did not vote, if in Portugal it was 40% in greece it must have been much bigger.

[Vninect]

According to results 100% of people voted, this makes no sence, they must not be revealing the number of people who did not vote, if in Portugal it was 40% in greece it must have been much bigger.

I don't think so. 100% of the votes have been counted by now. According to guardian source:

Registered 9.949.401 | Voted 6.476.751 | Abstention 34,90%
Valid 97,64% | Blank 0,55% | Invalid 1,80%

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/may/06/greece-elections-results-map

[Luís Henrique]

[Alexis Tsipras] showed no sign of backing off

He would have to be a complete sell out - no, a crazed sell out - to do such a thing. He, and his party, were mandated to oppose the "memorandum", how would they make a U turn without loosing all legitimacy?


"Patience among the creditor countries is running out," said Blanka Kolenikova from IHS Global Insight.

And they will do exactly what? Invade Greece militarily?


Germany's media says finance minister Wolfgang Schauble is itching to force Greece out of the euro as a salutary example, sure that Europe is strong enough to withstand the shock.

Ah, this. But it is only effective if the net result for Greece is very bad - worse at least than what is happening now, under the diktat of the "memorandum". Is there a similar example in history? Wait, yes, it exists: Argentina dumped its debts, became a pariah, everybody predicted doom and apolypse - and instead Argentina recovered, to reemerge in a quite better situation than under the IMF's impositions.

So...


This, in turn, is an illusion waiting to be punctured.

Indeed.


Arnaud Mares from Morgan Stanley said a Greek exit would set off "massive deposit flight" from all the vulnerable EMU states. "It could unravel the single currency altogether."

Quite possibly, especially because it may well be a self-fulfiling prophecy: the usual forex speculators bet against the Euro, provoke a panic, and the Euro in fact implodes.


It is an dangerous moment for Europe and global markets. Greece has no functioning goverment. It must decide on a series of bond repayments, starting this week. Tough choices will not wait until fresh elections in June, should they occur.

Who will make such decisions, in absence of government? The parliament? If so, we know what the decisions are going to be; you can't put Golden Dawn and KKE together in a government, but neither is going to vote against their mandate just because the other is not.


The disastrous chain of events has essentially discredited the entire crisis policy imposed on Europe by Germany. Combined fiscal and moneary contraction has pushed much of southern Europe into a deflation "death spiral", pulling the rest of Europe down with a delay. Even The Netherlands is now in deep recessoin.

Ah, yes. Exactly this: the medicine is killing the patients, more effectively than the disease itself. And so, the problem is up to Germany, not to Greece; Greece will survive a default, even if it means more sacrifices, and anyway it is already getting the sacrifices; but at least some German banks won't survive it.

And so...


Revolt was inevitable. It has finally occured. The European Commission on Tuesday called for an immediate investment blitz to stop the downward slide. This follows hard on the heels of a call by European Central Bank chief Mario Draghi for a "growth compact". The EU insistutions are slipping out of Germany's control.

Which means Ms Merkel herself is in her way to an electoral surprise soon. When are the next elections in Germany?


The election of François Hollande in France has radically altered Europe's balance of power, and popular fury has done the rest across a string of democracies.

It is a weird world, one where the election of such a moderate politician like François Hollande can do such things.


There are signs that Italy may start to tuck in behind France, picking away at the EU Fiscal Compact. Silvio Berlusconi's People of Liberty party said it will not back treaty ratification unless it includes eurobonds and turns the ECB into a lender-of-last-resort. The party rebuked Italy's premier Mario Monti for behaving as "Germany's representative".

And so even the conservative right in Italy is quitting the austerity boat. And why? Because,


The party's abrupt shift follows an electoral rout over the weekend in North Italy, where anti-euro maverick Beppe Grillo won 20pc of the vote in Parma and 15pc in Genoa.

Yes, nothing like a good electoral beating to get political parties rethinking their absurdities.


Berlin hopes to assuage Paris with a beefed up role for the European Investment Bank and a growth compact, perhaps tacked on as an annexe to the fiscal treaty. Officals at the Kanzleramt think Mr Hollande's rhetoric was campaign hot air, and that he will switch tack like German Social Democrat Gerhard Schroder a decade ago once in office.

But now is not ten years ago; there is a quite strong crisis now, Greece is in the brink of bankrupcy, and Portugal, Ireland, and even Spain are not much better. Even Italy and the Netherlands are in deep trouble, and France is in some difficulties; it isn't the character of the individuals that push them into some decision, but the actual state of capitalist accumulation.

Luís Henrique

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I heard the neo-nazi type assholes who got into power run on a platform of "sealing the borders with mines". Is that true, because that seems crazy for even for neo-nazi fucks.

[LeftAtheist]

I heard the neo-nazi type assholes who got into power run on a platform of "sealing the borders with mines". Is that true, because that seems crazy for even for neo-nazi fucks.

I heard that too and apparently it is true:

"ATHENS, Greece -- Election advertisements for Greece's far-right Golden Dawn party called for "taking the dirt out of the country," "cleaning up Athens" and planting land mines along the borders to stop illegal immigrants from coming in."

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/07/3599942/far-right-party-rises-as-first.html

[Sasha]

I think a new junta with full NATO/eu support might very well be already considerd an option at the moment it wouldnt be the first time in Greek history...

Who would have thought this 10 years ago...

[Threetune]

I think a new junta with full NATO/eu support might very well be already considerd an option at the moment it wouldnt be the first time in Greek history...

Who would have thought this 10 years ago...

Leninism of course.
Nice to see more people waking up but most still haven’t grasped the necessity of constantly repeating ‘the only answer is revolution and the dictatorship of the working class everywhere’.
Not a lot of that on this thread unfortunately.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Leninism of course.
Nice to see more people waking up but most still haven’t grasped the necessity of constantly repeating ‘the only answer is revolution and the dictatorship of the working class everywhere’.
Not a lot of that on this thread unfortunately. Probably because most people here are already starting a version of this assumption so it doesn't need to be said.

The question is "how," since the Greek left is a little beyond the point of just sloganeering. What does it mean that a large chunk of people went from "give the soc-dems a chance and pass the memorandum" to rejecting the soc-dems, to rejecting the the whole concept of having to pay back the debt. Elections won't bring about socialism, but it doesn't mean that they don't sometimes express significant things about what's going on in society and mass consciousness.

[Mindtoaster]

Leninism of course.
Nice to see more people waking up but most still haven’t grasped the necessity of constantly repeating ‘the only answer is revolution and the dictatorship of the working class everywhere’.
Not a lot of that on this thread unfortunately.

Yeah, more rhetoric circle jerks are EXACTLY what RevLeft needs

[Luís Henrique]

Yeah, more rhetoric circle jerks are EXACTLY what RevLeft needs

Revleft? What about Greece?

We should pay Threetune's air ticket to Greece, where he will certainly convince the Greeks of his ideas in a week, and lead a revolution in a month...

Luís Henrique

[Rainsborough]

Gosh, am I getting a moment of historic deja-vu? The Greek people, just like Russia in 1917, are facing a simple choice, and the majority of the international left, from the safety of distance, are pointing out the best way to achieve revolution.

[KurtFF8]

Probably because most people here are already starting a version of this assumption so it doesn't need to be said.

The question is "how," since the Greek left is a little beyond the point of just sloganeering. What does it mean that a large chunk of people went from "give the soc-dems a chance and pass the memorandum" to rejecting the soc-dems, to rejecting the the whole concept of having to pay back the debt. Elections won't bring about socialism, but it doesn't mean that they don't sometimes express significant things about what's going on in society and mass consciousness.

Well with my limited understanding of Greece, it seems that what's happening is a really deep political crisis unfolding and the Left (all of it) is quite clearly demonstrating that it is unprepared to deal with the crisis. I hope this changes as we all do, but it's quite concerning because situations like this give an opportunity for the forces of reaction to really move (we can of course see signs of this with Golden Dawn's ascendance in the elections).

Crises like this present an opportunity for the Left, but if it isn't up for the task, then they also present a real danger to the workers of Greece.

I'm also not sure how a unity government would really work out in this case considering the fundamental reason that the main parties were rejected was over the issue of the bailout. They would clearly head such a unity government but with much less confidence of the electorate which in turn has the potential of deepening the political crisis.

The tl;dr version: I have no idea what will happen now

[Threetune]

Revleft? What about Greece?

We should pay Threetune's air ticket to Greece, where he will certainly convince the Greeks of his ideas in a week, and
Luís Henrique

Now we all agree on the need for the dictatorship of the working class as the only possible “answer” to the vicious austerity attacks, we can confidently set about telling everyone who will listen that they will need to pass the word, get ready for even deeper more vicious economic, social and military attacks on workers communities right across the world including Europe and North America.

We can let everyone know that the reformist and centrist halfway-house ‘lefts’ are not only not a ‘solution’ but rather a cover for the big bourgeois manoeuvring against “their own people”.

We can explain the necessity of building mass revolutionary parties whose main aim will be the destruction of the local capitalist state by the democratic dictatorship of the working class. We can explain that nothing short of this will defend workers communities from the genocidal war that is already being conducted against much the third world because of capitalism's need for the wholesale destruction of the ‘surplus’ capital and ‘surplus’ production that is clogging ‘world trade’.

We cannot assume that anyone else will do that or is planning to do that. Revolutionaries have to face down all the cynical whining and whinging from the usual ‘left’ sceptics and pessimists who want us to shut up about revolution (sneering about "leading a revolution in a month..." ) and keep explaining these most important things patiently and overtly over and over again.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well what is evident is that traditional "radical" leftwing parties are rapidly becomming obsolete and are already irrelevant when drastic operation outside the parliamentary system is required or even demanded....at the very least in Europe

Traditional "revolutionary" parties have become enntrenched within the system. Are used to operating within the system and are no longer able and, as it seems, willing to start clandestine operations. They use the laws and the methods of the very same system they say they try to destroy. Instead it makes them complacent.

What is more...they have since decades fought each other just as hard if not harder than the capitalist system. The revolutionary left as it exists now has largely become a defunct left over of the cold war era...and these times are over. Period. Forever. Won't come back.

Society and the economy has changes in Europe. There are very little workers left in te traditional sense of mass mobilisation in single factory or workplace. Economy is revolving around service. Small(er) bussinesses, a fragmented workforce and therefore little or no class consciousness. Traditional mobilisation techniques based on the older ideological basis of Marxism/Socialism and Marxism-Leninism are no longer viable. New methods need to be employed that do not solely focus on the workplace and union work.

What is happening in Greece now makes this more and more apparant.

Union on the left needs to be reached and new venues of action need to be employed will we ever have a chance of actually having a revolution in Europe.

So what will happen now? New elections will be held. A military coup will be likely...or somebody will be bought or bribed to sell out like usually happens.
Europe already pushed for an undemocratic government...and they will do so again. As long as they will see their cash.

[Threetune]

Well what is evident is that traditional "radical" leftwing parties are rapidly becomming obsolete and are already irrelevant when drastic operation outside the parliamentary system is required or even demanded....at the very least in Europe

Traditional "revolutionary" parties have become enntrenched within the system. Are used to operating within the system and are no longer able and, as it seems, willing to start clandestine operations. They use the laws and the methods of the very same system they say they try to destroy. Instead it makes them complacent.

What is more...they have since decades fought each other just as hard if not harder than the capitalist system. The revolutionary left as it exists now has largely become a defunct left over of the cold war era...and these times are over. Period. Forever. Won't come back.

Society and the economy has changes in Europe. There are very little workers left in te traditional sense of mass mobilisation in single factory or workplace. Economy is revolving around service. Small(er) bussinesses, a fragmented workforce and therefore little or no class consciousness. Traditional mobilisation techniques based on the older ideological basis of Marxism/Socialism and Marxism-Leninism are no longer viable. New methods need to be employed that do not solely focus on the workplace and union work.

What is happening in Greece now makes this more and more apparant.

Union on the left needs to be reached and new venues of action need to be employed will we ever have a chance of actually having a revolution in Europe.

So what will happen now? New elections will be held. A military coup will be likely...or somebody will be bought or bribed to sell out like usually happens.
Europe already pushed for an undemocratic government...and they will do so again. As long as they will see their cash.

And the “anarchists” will argue against the truly the Marxist revolutionary program for destruction of the capitalist state by the dictatorship of the working class. In that way the anarchists assist the collapsing capitalists to avoid the final judgment.

[Tabarnack]

Eurozone crisis: EU moves to loosen grip of austerity

European executive calls for shift towards growth as leftist leader Alexis Tsipras steps up Greece's eurozone rebellion


The European executive has responded to the electoral earthquakes in France and Greece (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/greece) by calling for a shift towards growth across the EU as the new firebrand leftist leader in Athens stepped up his country's rebellion against austerity.

Alexis Tsipras, the leader of a group of radical Greek leftists that has been charged with trying to form a government, tore into the terms agreed by Athens for a €130bn bailout, threatening to nationalise the Greek banks and warning that Greece would walk away from its rescue deal with the eurozone.


In Brussels, Herman Van Rompuy, the European council's president, called a special summit to be held in a fortnight at which the French president-elect, François Hollande, will be able to unveil his proposals for tackling the euro (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/euro) crisis. The European commission supported Hollande's demands for pan-European investment to generate growth and create jobs.


"We are seizing the moment to advance our proposals in the new political climate," said Olli Rehn, the commissioner tasked with dealing with the euro crisis, as he accepted that the weekend's elections in France and Greece had changed the face of European politics.


Rehn and José Manuel Barroso, the commission's president, said it was likely that EU leaders would agree next month to increase the capital of the European Investment Bank by €10bn, which could be used as collateral to inaugurate large infrastructure "pilot projects" on a pan-European scale this year. Hollande campaigned on a similar platform.


The commission also says that there is €82bn in unused structural funds from the EU's medium-term budget which could be tapped to promote growth and jobs. That amounts to a quarter of the EU budget. Its use in this way is likely to run into stiff opposition from national governments.


In a further sign that EU leaders are being forced by popular pressure to loosen the austerity that has been the main response to the 30-month debt and currency crisis, Rehn signalled there could be a relaxation of tight fiscal conditions for countries struggling to meet binding budget targets. But any loosening would not apply to Greece, whose bailout is subject to terms set by the commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF.


Tsipras said he viewed that deal as null and void. "The popular verdict clearly renders the bailout deal invalid," he said, after two-third of Greeks voted on Sunday for parties rejecting the bailout terms. He called for a moratorium on Greek debt repayments, an investigation of the Greek banks, and the lifting of immunity of Greek MPs to facilitate their prosecution if deemed appropriate.


Tsipras's radical coalition was the moral victor of the Greek election, coming second with almost 17% of the vote and beating the mainstream centre-left Pasok into third place. He was asked to try to form a government after an attempt by Antonis Samaras, the centre-right leader, collapsed within hours. No one expects Tsipras to succeed in cobbling together a parliamentary majority either. The talk in Athens was of Greeks having to return to the polls next month. Samaras said Tsipras was asking politicians to sign up to a coalition agreement that would mean "the destruction of Greece".


more...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/08/eurozone-crisis-austerity-greece-alexis-tsipras

[W1N5T0N]

So what will happen if Greece rejects Austerity as a whole?
I know people are suffering, but this essentially means no more money from the EU, more debt, no more loans from other countries, inability to pay for anything,
bankruptcy = civil war....
simply rejecting any austerity, any cuts to budget will be arguably even worse for greek working class people...clusterfuck. :(

[Threetune]

Rehn and José Manuel Barroso, the commission's president, said it was likely that EU leaders would agree next month to increase the capital of the European Investment Bank by €10bn, which could be used as collateral to inaugurate large infrastructure "pilot projects" on a pan-European scale this year. Hollande campaigned on a similar platform.

Where will it come from? Roll them presses all they like, it’s no ‘solution’, it will just make matters worse, much worse.

[Blake's Baby]

Civil war? I suppose it's a possibility.

Inability to pay for anything? What does that mean exactly?

I think it is true that either under austerity measures, or outside of them, the working class is going to suffer for some considerable time to come.

[Per Levy]

And the “anarchists” will argue against the truly the Marxist revolutionary program for destruction of the capitalist state by the dictatorship of the working class. In that way the anarchists assist the collapsing capitalists to avoid the final judgment.

little polemic aside, hindsights post was a question of tactics and what tatics should be used in the current situation, while also a critic on old tatics that might not work anymore. and you brush it aside with some anarchbashing?

[PhoenixAsh]

And the “anarchists” will argue against the truly the Marxist revolutionary program for destruction of the capitalist state by the dictatorship of the working class. In that way the anarchists assist the collapsing capitalists to avoid the final judgment.

Really? Or are we just against the abuse of Marxist theory to try and justify the creation of just another hierarchical class through vanguardist elitism posed under the guise of a workers democracy?

But that it neither here nor there.

The fact of the matter is all current European Marxist and Marxist-Leninist parties are irrelevant. All developments in the last two years show this again and again. Not to mention the fact that half of them have simply gone over to the other side, turned social democrat and/or merely use the ideology as a form of nostalgic posturing while clinging on to government and parliamentary power with all their might.

There is no more mass movement relevant enough to be mobilised in the workplaces. That strategy is outdated and past its due date. Society has changed and most communist parties in Europe live in the past, are hopelesly sectarian and can't even agree to work together on the simplest initiatives in the face of dire economic circumstances.

What sure as hell is evident is that they can't adopt to changing situations and are completely failing to educate the workingclass let alone lead them. And it is also very obvious that riots and destruction do not work in and off themselves either....so the radical left as a whole is left in the sidelines.

So what is needed is a new strategy and a new way of organising and mobilising. Outside the defined powerstructures of the system and outside of the powerstructures of these outdated relics from the cold war. And that means pressence in the communities, activities outside of union organisation, outside of workplace agitation...because these have been marginalised in recent decades.

[Blake's Baby]

Absolutely agree with all of that except the notion that we can abandon workplace organisation. That is still where the working class has the power to confront capital. Organising in communities (how? who?) is all very well, but residents' associations and anti-power station groups aren't going to challenge capitalism. We (by 'we' I mean the working class, not Leftists of any persuasion) still need to organise ourselves at the point of production otherwise we just become ginger groups for reformism.

[Threetune]

Absolutely agree with all of that except the notion that we can abandon workplace organisation. That is still where the working class has the power to confront capital. Organising in communities (how? who?) is all very well, but residents' associations and anti-power station groups aren't going to challenge capitalism. We (by 'we' I mean the working class, not Leftists of any persuasion) still need to organise ourselves at the point of production otherwise we just become ginger groups for reformism.

No, we have to organise a party that will help organise the dictatorship of our class over the capitalists and their supporters. The anarchists are opposed to this. That’s why they stay quietly confused in this thread about what to do, but get all twitchily when exposed. Sad really.

[Jimmie Higgins]

So what will happen if Greece rejects Austerity as a whole?
I know people are suffering, but this essentially means no more money from the EU, more debt, no more loans from other countries, inability to pay for anything,
bankruptcy = civil war....
simply rejecting any austerity, any cuts to budget will be arguably even worse for greek working class people...clusterfuck. :(It would be tough and dangerous no doubt but Austerity won't "fix" the debt either so really it's a choice between a crash managed by the bourgeois, specifically the democratically unaccountable Troika or economic instability caused because the working class refuses to pay for the capitalist crisis.

Workers are automatically fucked under the status quo because that's the plan - recover by pushing down the working class - they are only "probably" fucked if austerity is rejected. But it is potentially better because people are feeling like they can have a say in these matters and so it opens up the possibility for our class to organize and change the battle from one where we are on the defensive against attacks to a more even footing where we reject the logic of making workers pay for the crisis. It also puts the European bourgoise on it's heels because people have rejected the idea that "there is no alternative" and so it will make it harder for the EU to turn to Portugal and then France or Ireland and say, "your turn next".

[PhoenixAsh]

Yes. Pluriformity & Diversity of action & tactics coupled with cooperation.

I am not arguing against one or the other. I am saying that, like the KKE, a singular focus on certain strategies is unsuccesful and will keep being unsuccesful in a society/economy that no longer holds these primary focus sectors as the majority of its activity.

Specifically in Greece 80% of the workforce is working in the service sector. Those are smaller companies. Fragmentised workforces. And yet the KKE focusses almost solely on these kind of actions to create a class movement in factories and manufacturing companies. That is just a fragment of the Greek working class.

Now...this isn't something I am making up. This is from the KKE materials on their website and in their paper. Their strategy is to reject, criticise and disparage any initiative outside of the KKE or outside of their political ideological niche.

A massive rally is nice and all. But when you are not actively participating in induvidual actions, even in a supporting role, or support larger actions outside your own political spectrum then you are going to marginalise yourself. As is evident from the Greek vote.

So when communities create events or take initiative....you need to be pressent or in the very least actively supportive.

What established CPs rarely seem to realise is that the first step in class consciousness is not becomming a communist but realising where you are in society....and that the first step in politicising people is to get them active. Forcing them into particular actions...like strikes and unionisation...isn't going
to work at all.

[PhoenixAsh]

No, we have to organise a party that will help organise the dictatorship of our class over the capitalists and their supporters. The anarchists are opposed to this. That’s why they stay quietly confused in this thread about what to do, but get all twitchily when exposed. Sad really.

Really? Because you have a party. And so far all they have done is standing with their thumbs up their arses saying that "it isn't time yet" and walking around blaming everybody else for their own failure to get massive support.

So no...we do NOT need another party like the dozens we already have. The dozens we already have which have for decades become entrenched in the bourgeoisie system of parliamentary democracy and at times even actively cooperated within that system and who time and time again FAIL to mobilise the masses or even persuade them to vote for them.

Your arguments and contribution in this thread are nice and all...but don't you feel that given the reality outside the internet....it seems to be a bit odd and contradictory to recent events to make these arguments?

[Mindtoaster]

It would be tough and dangerous no doubt but Austerity won't "fix" the debt either so really it's a choice between a crash managed by the bourgeois, specifically the democratically unaccountable Troika or economic instability caused because the working class refuses to pay for the capitalist crisis.



Agreed

It needs to be stressed again and again that austerity has sweet fuck all to do with economic recovery. Its the same old IMF strategy going back to at least the 1970s of using crisis as a cover to deregulate markets and push through neo-liberal capitalism

Austerity is PURELY ideological

[Threetune]

Really? Because you have a party. And so far all they have done is standing with their thumbs up their arses saying that "it isn't time yet" and walking around blaming everybody else for their own failure to get massive support.

So no...we do NOT need another party like the dozens we already have. The dozens we already have which have for decades become entrenched in the bourgeoisie system of parliamentary democracy and at times even actively cooperated within that system and who time and time again FAIL to mobilise the masses or even persuade them to vote for them.

Your arguments and contribution in this thread are nice and all...but don't you feel that given the reality outside the internet....it seems to be a bit odd and contradictory to recent events to make these arguments?

What a diversion. You lot hate and reject the only possible ‘solution’ for the working class to the economic, political and social crisis, that is, proletarian dictatorship. The nearer the revolution gets the more you lot are being exposed as nothing but wind bags with no coherent politics, ideology, strategy or tactics. A complete shambles desperately covering up for the fact that you will do everything in your power to turn workers away from discussion of the dictatorship necessary for victory.

[PhoenixAsh]

What a diversion. You lot hate and reject the only possible ‘solution’ for the working class to the economic, political and social crisis, that is, proletarian dictatorship. The nearer the revolution gets the more you lot are being exposed as nothing but wind bags with no coherent politics, ideology, strategy or tactics. A complete shambles desperately covering up for the fact that you will do everything in your power to turn workers away from discussion of the dictatorship necessary for victory.

Diversity. Learn to read when you are being an ass on the internet.

So far your prescious party has done fuck all but collaborate within the bourgeoisie system. Your so called revolutionaries even participated in government which did NOT abolish capitalism but paved the way for it. In fact...your so called revolutionary vanguards have on more than one occasion actually prevented revolutionary escalation and have again and again failed to mobilise the masses.

So you presume to be in a position to lecture here on who is and who is not a class traitor and aiding and abetting capitalism and the bourgeoisie? How very quaint.

To even start a debate about the DOTP and its usefulness is not only presumptuous but very, very premature.

[No_Leaders]

Holy hell this is the 2nd time i've re-written this ugh. Once at work and comp froze and now at home and my laptop spazzed out and refreshed the page sighh..

Anyways, i was going to dispute this sillyness of the DOTP, i mean isn't that just worker control of the means of production like in Spain in Catalonia, Aragon during the Spanish Civil War? I was always under the impression that the term dictatorship does not mean dictatorship in the sense that it typically means which most people misconstrue. I think organizing workers in the work place is definitely always going to be an important thing to do. I mean we, the workers we're on the fore front seeing capitalism as the exploitative oppressive system it is first hand. We see the cronyism between bosses/managers and 'favored' employees, we're pushing their products onto ignorant consumers, we work in their factories, mines, make food for the bourgeoisie, stock shelves with more and more products day after day, crunch numbers in our cubicles, while our health benefits get slashed, hours get cut, friends and family get laid off while the bosses and ceo's continue to prosper.. We know all to well the realities of capitalism, so organizing the work places is very important. I do believe however we can bridge connections within our local communities, to show people there are alternatives to a failed and dying system that will continue to drag us all down into a cesspool of poverty and hopelessness. I think most people just don't realize how most of the issues we struggle fighting against are all interconnected. The thing is we need to continue, this is what class struggle is. Working through a bourgeois political system is not the way to do this though. I mean you can't work within the system to dismantle it. We can't rely on the old tried methods of parties being revolutionary and leading to a classless, stateless, free society. It doesn't work that way, let's leave the parties and offices of prime minister/president to the bourgeoisie. (unless people here really think if a communist/radical leftist became president he'd really make changes)

My point is, i been seeing arguments back and fourth about the communist party this and the party that, whats the party going to do once they take office if they did? Would we goto our jobs and be able to kick the bosses out and setup a workers committee where we can all decide on things democratically as a group? Would i be able to walk streets at night without worrying of being hassled by the racist piggies? Would i be able to tell my landlord to fuck off and that i don't have to pay rent anymore since he/she does not own the land? I highly doubt it. When it really comes down to it, you'd end up with a social democrat at the best, and an authoritarian regime at the worst. In the end capitalism remains intact, the work places will still be controlled and run by an exclusive class, private property will still exist, and the workers will still remain slaves led down a road to what they hoped would bring about true freedom only to be deceived one more time. Parties? Nah. No thanks.

Not attacking any one poster here, just throwing my 2 cents in!

[Threetune]

“To even start a debate about the DOTP and its usefulness is not only presumptuous but very, very premature.” Hindsight
“Parties? Nah. No thanks”. No Leaders.


How the capitalists love all this confused talk from anarchists which only helps spread confusion and pessimism among the middle class youth.

Workers on the other hand want a revolution and a revolutionary party opposed to the plague of reformist parties, but the anarchists come along and tell us we are not to talk about forming revolutionary parties and tell us not to talk about the dictatorship which will destroy the capitalist dictatorship, that’s what the anarchists say. They say its “presumptuous” and “very very premature” to even start a debate about the dictatorship of the proletariat. They appear to have assessed the political situation and judged that it is no where near revolutionary and are therefore opposed to us building a revolutionary party or even mentioning our dictatorship.

And that’s why the capitalists love them.

[Psychedelia]

I always thought that there is going to be an revolution in Greece not elections :crying:

[Rainsborough]

“To even start a debate about the DOTP and its usefulness is not only presumptuous but very, very premature.” Hindsight
“Parties? Nah. No thanks”. No Leaders.


How the capitalists love all this confused talk from anarchists which only helps spread confusion and pessimism among the middle class youth.

Workers on the other hand want a revolution and a revolutionary party opposed to the plague of reformist parties, but the anarchists come along and tell us we are not to talk about forming revolutionary parties and tell us not to talk about the dictatorship which will destroy the capitalist dictatorship, that’s what the anarchists say. They say its “presumptuous” and “very very premature” to even start a debate about the dictatorship of the proletariat. They appear to have assessed the political situation and judged that it is no where near revolutionary and are therefore opposed to us building a revolutionary party or even mentioning our dictatorship.

And that’s why the capitalists love them.

Absolutely, the workers need action not more talk. I suppose things in Greece will folow the usual pattern, there will be no revolution. Then the Anarchists can do the usual thing and return to riot and talk, way to end capitalism and replace it with utopianism.

[Threetune]

Absolutely, the workers need action not more talk. I suppose things in Greece will folow the usual pattern, there will be no revolution. Then the Anarchists can do the usual thing and return to riot and talk, way to end capitalism and replace it with utopianism.


Well yes, I don’t know anyone who knows what will happen in Greece but going about saying that talk of workers power is “presumptuous” and “very very premature” is just sheer reactionary philistinism.

At what point in the history of the communist movement have communists NOT talked about the need for revolution? Even in the most ‘quiet’ periods it is vital to point out that capitalism is a system of crisis and needs to be overthrown.
We are watching as the economic chaos worsens daily with escalation of imperialist war, widespread revolt across the world with formally ‘stable’ states and governments disintegrating in front of our eyes and still the anarchists and it must be said, ‘Stalinists’ and crypto Trots like the CPGB (critical support for Melenchon) telling us not to talk about revolution. We remember when they sneered “don’t keep talking about the economic crisis comrade”, “you are exaggerating”, “you are a catastrophist” etc. They were all wrong then and are all wrong now.

The planet under capitalism is going to hell in a handcart, that’s obvious. The “SOLUTION”, like it or lump it, is working class dictatorship and the sooner hundreds of millions start talking about it, AGANST THE ADVICE OF THE ANACHISTS ETC, the more chance we have of pulling it off. Delay is criminally insane.

[Jimmie Higgins]

How the capitalists love all this confused talk from anarchists which only helps spread confusion and pessimism among the middle class youth.

Workers on the other hand want a revolution and a revolutionary party opposed to the plague of reformist parties, but the anarchists come along and tell us we are not to talk about forming revolutionary parties and tell us not to talk about the dictatorship which will destroy the capitalist dictatorship, that’s what the anarchists say. They say its “presumptuous” and “very very premature” to even start a debate about the dictatorship of the proletariat. They appear to have assessed the political situation and judged that it is no where near revolutionary and are therefore opposed to us building a revolutionary party or even mentioning our dictatorship.

And that’s why the capitalists love them. Well open the doors, let them in, don't get in the way of a stampede of all the actual existing workers who are swarming the party HQ.

As someone who does believe that revolutionary workers will be most effective in organizing themselves into a party/ies of organic revolutionaries engaged in every possible area of working class struggle while also coordinating with eachother (i.e. a democratic but centralized party of working class revolutionaries) ... as far as I can assess the political situation, there is no possible way in the current moment that suggests that workers would be ready and able to take hold of society for themselves. Obviously things change quickly (in this time period and especcially in places like Greece) and I do think revolutionaries have to prepare for this and try and help this process as much as we subjectively can, but currently I don't think much of the Greek working class is thinking "hey we could run things ourselves". The KKE might think of itself as a vanguard, but again they have followers and supporters in working class communities and being a vanguard doesn't mean people follow you or that you tell people to follow you, but that you are ahead of people who are already in motion and trying to scout out various possible ways forward. Revolutionaries are not generals over the class but should be organizers among the class - rather than "telling" we should be trying to help coordinate and strengthen the existing struggle which means for us to "non-presumtavly" talk about an actual revolution and actual worker's power, the question has to be on the table. THe Bolsheviks didn't say: "Form soviets so we can create duel power and then we'll call for all power to these soviets" - there was already duel power which means the question was already a question for the class - "do we support the new government or do we continue organizing in soviets?" A: "All power to the soviets".

I think this vote in Greece represents a turning point into a new phase, but it doesn't mean that workers are actually prepared or even thinking about working class rule... not at this moment. But we should all be preparing for this likely hood or for this level of struggle to happen in our locations.

[Crux]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/anti-bailout-coalition-soars-popularity-ahead-second-greek-election
If this is what the result will be well...I'll write a longer analysis later when I am less caught up in this purely emotional sensation of jubilation. The fascists falling down to 4.9% is just the icing on the cake.

[PhoenixAsh]

“To even start a debate about the DOTP and its usefulness is not only presumptuous but very, very premature.” Hindsight
“Parties? Nah. No thanks”. No Leaders.




I think the Greek workers have just disproved your point....they seem to be very devided over which group they will elect:

ND or SYRIZA....neither of which are revolutionary. Not to mention the fact that the more radical elements MARGINALLY like the KKE better than the Nazi's of GD.

And the same goes for EVERY other country in Europe.

So the workers seem to not exactly want what you are saying....disproving your point.

OR.....it might be thta the KKE and all other CP's in Europe simply aren't revolutionary anymore and are, like I said, hopelessly lost. Points which you continue to ignore in favor of bashing Anarchists...who, in classic fashion of another tactic of the KKE, seem to beyour sole focus of the blame why workers aren't revolutionary anymore :D :D :D

You keep proving my points.



How the capitalists love all this confused talk from anarchists which only helps spread confusion and pessimism among the middle class youth.

Workers on the other hand want a revolution and a revolutionary party opposed to the plague of reformist parties, but the anarchists come along and tell us we are not to talk about forming revolutionary parties.

See my response above.

Now....your famous KKE is a party which has actively participated in a burgeoisie gorvenment. How revolutionary is that?

And you DARE talk about reformism?

Don't make me laugh more at you than I am already doing.





and tell us not to talk about the dictatorship which will destroy the capitalist dictatorship, that’s what the anarchists say. They say its “presumptuous” and “very very premature” to even start a debate about the dictatorship of the proletariat. They appear to have assessed the political situation and judged that it is no where near revolutionary and are therefore opposed to us building a revolutionary party or even mentioning our dictatorship.

Again....the KKE, like many CP's in Europe....have actively participated in burgeoisie government, participate in the burgeoisie parliamentary process and are totally dependend on it (they had to fire people for crying out loud because their government handouts went down :D )

They also on more than one occasion cooperated with the cops.

And prevented revolutionary situations from actually evolving into a revolutionary movement.

Now....you could try and entrench yourself in the classic party-line bullshit and just regurgitate the same old, same old lines which by now have marginalised CP's all over Europe to factual irrelevancy or you could (novel idea) actually start to look for solutions to the fact that these CPs barely do better than hardline Racists and Neonazi's in the elections.

The DOTP and its role and usefulness are ONLY relevant to be discussed if they even have a freaking chance to occur. But so far your precious vanguardists have FAILED utterly to bring them about and are FAR FAR FAR removed from being actually in a position to lead anybody.

So bringing this up in a thread about the Greek elections and why the CP there failed....is pure deflective argumentation and premature.






And that’s why the capitalists love them. [/quote]

So far capitalists love the KKE. They draw the votes of the discontent and they can definately count on them not to take any initiative or action and protect the system if necessary.

[Threetune]

I think this vote represents a turning point into a new phase, but it doesn't mean that workers are actually prepared or even thinking about working class rule.

No, because you and the rest of the ‘lefts’ including the anarchists (and in Greece that’s a lot of people) are ORGANISED to tell workers NOT TO TALK ABOUTR REVOLUTION!!!

[Threetune]

I think the Greek workers have just disproved your point....they seem to be very devided over which group they will elect:

ND or SYRIZA....neither of which are revolutionary. Not to mention the fact that the more radical elements MARGINALLY like the KKE better than the Nazi's of GD.

And the same goes for EVERY other country in Europe.

So the workers seem to not exactly want what you are saying....disproving your point.

OR.....it might be thta the KKE and all other CP's in Europe simply aren't revolutionary anymore and are, like I said, hopelessly lost. Points which you continue to ignore in favor of bashing Anarchists...who, in classic fashion of another tactic of the KKE, seem to beyour sole focus of the blame why workers aren't revolutionary anymore :D :D :D

You keep proving my points.



See my response above.

Now....your famous KKE is a party which has actively participated in a burgeoisie gorvenment. How revolutionary is that?

And you DARE talk about reformism?

Don't make me laugh more at you than I am already doing.






Again....the KKE, like many CP's in Europe....have actively participated in burgeoisie government, participate in the burgeoisie parliamentary process and are totally dependend on it (they had to fire people for crying out loud because their government handouts went down :D )

They also on more than one occasion cooperated with the cops.

And prevented revolutionary situations from actually evolving into a revolutionary movement.

Now....you could try and entrench yourself in the classic party-line bullshit and just regurgitate the same old, same old lines which by now have marginalised CP's all over Europe to factual irrelevancy or you could (novel idea) actually start to look for solutions to the fact that these CPs barely do better than hardline Racists and Neonazi's in the elections.

The DOTP and its role and usefulness are ONLY relevant to be discussed if they even have a freaking chance to occur. But so far your precious vanguardists have FAILED utterly to bring them about and are FAR FAR FAR removed from being actually in a position to lead anybody.

So bringing this up in a thread about the Greek elections and why the CP there failed....is pure deflective argumentation and premature.





So far capitalists love the KKE. They draw the votes of the discontent and they can definately count on them not to take any initiative or action and protect the system if necessary.


As I have been saying since finding this site in Feb 2011, ‘leftism’ is counterrevolutionary and you are the proof if ever there was any.

You are united, as one, with the big bourgeois, the social democrats, Stalinists, Trotskyists and it must be said, Golden Dawn in refusing to talk about creating a revolutionary communist party in action for grappling the power away from the capitalists. You are all in agreement that we must not talk about workers dictatorship.

So what is your advice apart from “don’t talk about revolution” which is the same advice as the capitalists and all other ‘lefts’ and “radicals”give. Ha!

[Jimmie Higgins]

No, because you and the rest of the ‘lefts’ including the anarchists (and in Greece that’s a lot of people) are ORGANISED to tell workers NOT TO TALK ABOUTR REVOLUTION!!!No, just not to talk about it in an abstract and meaningless way.

Anyway, this is a pretty silly accusation. When I'm doing propaganda activities or whatnot every argument I make to try and convince someone of these politics and arguments is geared around the need for, and the question of how does, the class put itself in a position to be able to take over society - i.e. revolution. I do say we need a revolution, my concern is always the question of "how".

Getting up and saying "Revolution! Revolution! Revolution" when people are not already prepared and able to have a worker's revolution is revolutionary posturing and the subtext of these calls is: "Follow me, follow me, follow me" in the practical sense. In fact where I am, a certain subset in the anarchist milieu act almost as mock-Maoists as they run around talking about Revolution no matter what the context and think that anyone who isn't trying to directly confront the state at any time are "liberals" and "reformists" and so on - tactics as dogma IMO and much like the Moaists in the 1970s who believed "Revolution is around the corner" at the same time they had no meaningful roots in the working class. All this is only to say that I doubt revolutionary leftists and anarchists are not talking about revolution - at least in a propagandistic way, if not in an agitational way.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well yes, I don’t know anyone who knows what will happen in Greece but going about saying that talk of workers power is “presumptuous” and “very very premature” is just sheer reactionary philistinism.


Yes. A debate about the use of the DOTP in Greece is a thread about the outcome of the recent elections and how desasterous they have actually been for the KKE is extremely premature because currently there is NO party in Greece that is actively trying to organise a revolution or capable of doing so.

The DOTP as in the clssic ML sense is a long, long way off. And it is nice an all to start a debate of "what could save the working class" but this thread is not the place to do so since there will be no party in Greece that actually can actually fullfill the vanguard position.

So your argument on how Anarchists are opposed to the DOTP being the cause of the disasterous performance of the KKE in the last decades since they last collaborated within a bourgeoisie government is hillarious and nhow they are too incompetent to lead anything or to even persuade the workers to vote for them. This all to such and extend that the KKE is barely ahead of neonazi's in Greece.

Your argumenst so far are hillarious and fly completely in the face of the political reality on the spot.

The DOTP can only be brought about by an actual revolution. Whhich requires a revolutionary situation. One which the KKE has prevented time and time agian from happening. So there is no short term chance of a DOTP at all by a vanguard party. Especially not one being brought about by class traitors of the KKE who have collaborated with capital time and time again....defending them is nothing short of class collaborationism and class treason.





At what point in the history of the communist movement have communists NOT talked about the need for revolution? Even in the most ‘quiet’ periods it is vital to point out that capitalism is a system of crisis and needs to be overthrown.

Yes....they talk...and talk...and talk. And that is exactly my point. All classic CPs in Europe are hopelessly lost in the past and their sectarianism. Like you are illustrating. Which wouldn´t come as a surprise because the KKE is actually an anti/revolutionary movement which has executed left/communists, Trotskyists, Anarchists, Council communists, Syndicalists, Socialists and all other non-KKE groups in the past.

All the while offcourse the KKE has begged for positions of power within the burgeoisie structure and has actively participated in burgeoisie governments :)




We are watching as the economic chaos worsens daily with escalation of imperialist war, widespread revolt across the world with formally ‘stable’ states and governments disintegrating in front of our eyes and still the anarchists and it must be said, ‘Stalinists’ and crypto Trots like the CPGB (critical support for Melenchon) telling us not to talk about revolution. We remember when they sneered “don’t keep talking about the economic crisis comrade”, “you are exaggerating”, “you are a catastrophist” etc. They were all wrong then and are all wrong now.


Owww....now we are the ones not talking about revolution??? Because I seem to remember a debate a while back when we...that is the anarchists here....were pissed off with the KKE for actually rpeventing a revolutionary situation from being created and the KKE cronies defending taht position by qarguing that the time was not right adn that they were oso afraid of military intervention.

O also remember a time when there was a revolutionary situation in Greece and the KKE...like on most occasions...actively chaced anarchists and handed them over to the cops.

That is what your ML-revolutionbary party does: protect capitalism.





The planet under capitalism is going to hell in a handcart, that’s obvious. The “SOLUTION”, like it or lump it, is working class dictatorship and the sooner hundreds of millions start talking about it, AGANST THE ADVICE OF THE ANACHISTS ETC, the more chance we have of pulling it off. Delay is criminally insane.
[/quote]


LOLOLOLOL

Your DOTP up to date has failed in every place it has been implemented. It resulted in reformism, downright repression and a creation of a new political elite and exploiter of the workers. Leading to the loss of any form of support for communism the world over.

:thumbup:

[Crux]

Okay you guys I have threetune on ignore for a reason so I am just going to post this again:
Anti-Bailout Coalition Soars In Popularity Ahead Of Second Greek Election (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/anti-bailout-coalition-soars-popularity-ahead-second-greek-election)

discuss.

[PhoenixAsh]

As I have been saying since finding this site in Feb 2011, ‘leftism’ is counterrevolutionary and you are the proof if ever there was any.

You are united, as one, with the big bourgeois, the social democrats, Stalinists, Trotskyists and it must be said, Golden Dawn in refusing to talk about creating a revolutionary communist party in action for grappling the power away from the capitalists. You are all in agreement that we must not talk about workers dictatorship.

So what is your advice apart from “don’t talk about revolution” which is the same advice as the capitalists and all other ‘lefts’ and “radicals”. Ha!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I am not the one supporting a party that has actually actively participated in burgeoisie government. That is you. Which is actually class treason.

I am not the one defending a part which has time and time again prevented strikes and protests to escalate into a revolutionary situation. Again...that is you.


I am not the one defending a party whioch has been cooperating with the cops on numerous occasions handing comrades over to them. Again...that is you.

I am also not the one defending a party which has only a few months back protected parliament against protesters. Again...that is you.

I am also not defending a party which has been instrumental in the murder and assassination of hundreds of revolutionaries. Again...that is you.

I also not the one defending a party which is solely and exclusively focussed on workplace organisation and berates and actiovely speaks out against all other activities and initiatives which are not organised by the party or affiliates. Again...that is you.

I am not the one who in the face of electorate reality tries to argue that the working class wants a vanguard. Again...that is you.


But somehow....I am the counter revoltionary? :laugh::laugh:

Lets face is....the reality across Europe is that vanguard parties are marginalised. They are irrelevant and left overs from a system which has long perished and has managed to discredit itself beyond salvation. Your party has failed to get the attention of the working class....and is in no position to lead anything but its own downward spiral into oblivion.

And yes...your party is only going down in the polls :) :) So yes....keep ranting and raving that you somehow are still relevant....that will definately work.

[Mindtoaster]

Okay you guys I have threetune on ignore for a reason so I am just going to post this again:
Anti-Bailout Coalition Soars In Popularity Ahead Of Second Greek Election (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/anti-bailout-coalition-soars-popularity-ahead-second-greek-election)

discuss.

With the KKE refusing to join a coalition with Syriza, would that be enough for a government to form?

[Threetune]

Yes. A debate about the use of the DOTP in Greece is a thread about the outcome of the recent elections and how desasterous they have actually been for the KKE is extremely premature because currently there is NO party in Greece that is actively trying to organise a revolution or capable of doing so.

The DOTP as in the clssic ML sense is a long, long way off. And it is nice an all to start a debate of "what could save the working class" but this thread is not the place to do so since there will be no party in Greece that actually can actually fullfill the vanguard position.

So your argument on how Anarchists are opposed to the DOTP being the cause of the disasterous performance of the KKE in the last decades since they last collaborated within a bourgeoisie government is hillarious and nhow they are too incompetent to lead anything or to even persuade the workers to vote for them. This all to such and extend that the KKE is barely ahead of neonazi's in Greece.

Your argumenst so far are hillarious and fly completely in the face of the political reality on the spot.

The DOTP can only be brought about by an actual revolution. Whhich requires a revolutionary situation. One which the KKE has prevented time and time agian from happening. So there is no short term chance of a DOTP at all by a vanguard party. Especially not one being brought about by class traitors of the KKE who have collaborated with capital time and time again....defending them is nothing short of class collaborationism and class treason.





Yes....they talk...and talk...and talk. And that is exactly my point. All classic CPs in Europe are hopelessly lost in the past and their sectarianism. Like you are illustrating. Which wouldn´t come as a surprise because the KKE is actually an anti/revolutionary movement which has executed left/communists, Trotskyists, Anarchists, Council communists, Syndicalists, Socialists and all other non-KKE groups in the past.

All the while offcourse the KKE has begged for positions of power within the burgeoisie structure and has actively participated in burgeoisie governments :)





Owww....now we are the ones not talking about revolution??? Because I seem to remember a debate a while back when we...that is the anarchists here....were pissed off with the KKE for actually rpeventing a revolutionary situation from being created and the KKE cronies defending taht position by qarguing that the time was not right adn that they were oso afraid of military intervention.

O also remember a time when there was a revolutionary situation in Greece and the KKE...like on most occasions...actively chaced anarchists and handed them over to the cops.

That is what your ML-revolutionbary party does: protect capitalism.






LOLOLOLOL

Your DOTP up to date has failed in every place it has been implemented. It resulted in reformism, downright repression and a creation of a new political elite and exploiter of the workers. Leading to the loss of any form of support for communism the world over.

:thumbup:[/QUOTE]

The results of the elections are as they are because the various parties had an influence or because they did not have an influence, make your mind up.
As I keep saying, you anarchists can’t fail to prove that you are against workers power. You can’t help but prove that you are against destroying the dictatorship of capitalism with working class dictatorship. You have absolutely no other policy for taking power from the capitalist class.

[PhoenixAsh]

Okay you guys I have threetune on ignore for a reason so I am just going to post this again:
Anti-Bailout Coalition Soars In Popularity Ahead Of Second Greek Election (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/anti-bailout-coalition-soars-popularity-ahead-second-greek-election)

discuss.

True. And you are right.

I think these latest poll results show that Greece still will not be able to form a new government.

I am not entirely sure what will happen after. I think when a new government can not be formed the old one will stay in place. So far this seems to be the case and I think there will be attempts by the Supreme Administrative Court to form an as widely accepted government as possible....I am not entirely sure but somebody has to give in or there will be a situation that can and will eventually lead to a suspension of democracy.

[PhoenixAsh]

LOLOLOLOL



The results of the elections are as they are because the various parties had an influence or because they did not have an influence, make your mind up.
As I keep saying, you anarchists can’t fail to prove that you are against workers power. You can’t help but prove that you are against destroying the dictatorship of capitalism with working class dictatorship. You have absolutely no other policy for taking power from the capitalist class.


Actually I have made my position on why the KKE failed in the elections perfectly clear and in answer to that you ignored almost all of my points and went on moohing about the DOTP and how anarchists are against it....in the process making the false equation that DOTP=revolution=workers power.

And the KKE NOT being a revolutionary party was one of my main points. So all yoru arguments are simply misguided and misplaced.

But to come back to your argument that the DOTP=workers power. This is a ludicrous assertion because the DOTP is rulership of the vanguard in your eyes OVER the working class.

[Threetune]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I am not the one supporting a party that has actually actively participated in burgeoisie government. That is you. Which is actually class treason.

I am not the one defending a part which has time and time again prevented strikes and protests to escalate into a revolutionary situation. Again...that is you.


I am not the one defending a party whioch has been cooperating with the cops on numerous occasions handing comrades over to them. Again...that is you.

I am also not the one defending a party which has only a few months back protected parliament against protesters. Again...that is you.

I am also not defending a party which has been instrumental in the murder and assassination of hundreds of revolutionaries. Again...that is you.

I also not the one defending a party which is solely and exclusively focussed on workplace organisation and berates and actiovely speaks out against all other activities and initiatives which are not organised by the party or affiliates. Again...that is you.

I am not the one who in the face of electorate reality tries to argue that the working class wants a vanguard. Again...that is you.


Just post your evidence, any evidence. Go on just one tiny little bit will be enough to prove your point.

Bet you anything you can’t produce any evidence. Bet you are now going to look like a chump because you have just made up all your accusations for the last several posts and you haven’t got a scrap of proof to back them up with. But please don’t let me stop you from trying to support your hollow case. Go on please just one little bit of fact to get you of the hook.

[Crux]

With the KKE refusing to join a coalition with Syriza, would that be enough for a government to form?
Well, two things this poll will probably further strengthen SYRIZA and secondly as you might remember there is a new election law in greece which gives the party with the most votes 50 extra seats. I bet the two old establishment parties didn't expect this would be something to come back and bite them in the ass when they wrote it into law.

[Threetune]

True. And you are right.

I think these latest poll results show that Greece still will not be able to form a new government.

I am not entirely sure what will happen after. I think when a new government can not be formed the old one will stay in place. So far this seems to be the case and I think there will be attempts by the Supreme Administrative Court to form an as widely accepted government as possible....I am not entirely sure but somebody has to give in or there will be a situation that can and will eventually lead to a suspension of democracy.

Yes but what might be the best thing for workers in Greece to be discussing in relation to these elections. Are you bothered about what workers in Greece are talking about or not? What should they be doing in the next lot of elections? Care to enlighten us, from an anarchist view point.?

[Tabarnack]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/anti-bailout-coalition-soars-popularity-ahead-second-greek-election
If this is what the result will be well...I'll write a longer analysis later when I am less caught up in this purely emotional sensation of jubilation. The fascists falling down to 4.9% is just the icing on the cake.


Given that results only represent about 75% of the vote, it would mean that Syriza would get more or less 30% of the seats with the extra 50 seats this would add up to 140 seats, close to a majority, since Dimar is willing to join in that means a majority left alliance, and the campaigning for the second vote has not even started yet...

[Tabarnack]

Given that results only represent about 75% of the vote, it would mean that Syriza would get more or less 30% of the seats with the extra 50 seats this would add up to 140 seats, close to a majority, since Dimar is willing to join in that means a majority left alliance, and the campaigning for the second vote has not even started yet...


I did a quick calculation and with this poll the political parties would get the following.

Syriza 129 seats
N D 57
Pasok 36
I G 29
KKE 20
G D 16
Dimar 13

It Takes 151 seats to have a majority.

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47371418?__source=ft&par=ft

SYRIZA my ass...

[No_Leaders]

LOLOLOLOL

Your DOTP up to date has failed in every place it has been implemented. It resulted in reformism, downright repression and a creation of a new political elite and exploiter of the workers. Leading to the loss of any form of support for communism the world over.

:thumbup:


You're missing the point. Hindsight is merely pointing out the facts that for being revolutionaries it seems participating in a bourgeois political system is pretty counter-revolutionary. I already told you i agree with a DOTP if that means worker control of the means of production, yet somehow you keep flaunting around that us anarchists have no idea what we're talkin about and side with capitalists. Yet you see reactionary CP parties who side with the cops, who directly work within the state and it's functions all the while chanting some nice slogans from old soviet times. How the hell is participating in the capitalists politics revolutionary? I don't see a revolution in Greece, i see elections, time to replace those ol' conservatives with some social democrat leftists! Oh wait they can't forge a government hmm who's next ahh those 'socialists' PASOK yes, great.. That's the problem right there, people are still buying into the system of voting in an official, there's nothing revolutionary about a party, only in name. The only way it would be revolutionary is if the capitalists were overthrown, the state dismantled, and people organized into self running communes, and workers were running the work places themselves through democratic committees. So how is an election going to cause this?

[Tabarnack]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47371418?__source=ft&par=ft

SYRIZA my ass...


If the EU cannot be reformed in the interest of the Greek people then this has to be demonstrated through practice and real negotiation, if this fail then the Greek people will be in a better position to make a definitive and enlightened choice, and under these circumstances you may find that it will not be the KKE that will lead the way out...

[Jimmie Higgins]

Didn't the KKE argue for reluctant support for the memorandum initially? Didn't they warn of the EU consequences and so they thought that rejecting the debt would be harmful? I'm not sure and I was looking online but couldn't find a straight answer.

[Crux]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47371418?__source=ft&par=ft

SYRIZA my ass...
Bitter much? Yes I agree the leadership of SYRIZAs still has a far far too weak and naive position, not just on the EU and euro, but this too. However there are rumblings even within SYN and I think they *will* be pushed to the left. Where will the KKE be though? Holding steadfastly on the sidelines?

Reminds me I heard KKE was the second least popular party among youth. What was it Lenin said? Those who have the youth have the future.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yes but what might be the best thing for workers in Greece to be discussing in relation to these elections. Are you bothered about what workers in Greece are talking about or not? What should they be doing in the next lot of elections? Care to enlighten us, from an anarchist view point.?

BWAHAHAHA :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

...weren't you the one here talking about how we needed a DOTP??? And now all of the sudden you want advice on what the Greek workers should vote for in BOURGEOISE elections???

See THAT is my whole problem with the KKE. Like I said. They are completely endentured to the system that they purely focus on electoral results instead of revolution...you know...actually taking to the street and INSTEAD OF WAVING FLAGS and putting their arses on the parliamentary pluche....actually occupying things and overthrowing the bourgeousie government. You know...stuff ACTUAL revolutionaries do.

But YOU...you wantn electoral advice :thumbup::thumbup:

You are freaking hillarious....

[PhoenixAsh]

Just post your evidence, any evidence. Go on just one tiny little bit will be enough to prove your point.

Bet you anything you can’t produce any evidence. Bet you are now going to look like a chump because you have just made up all your accusations for the last several posts and you haven’t got a scrap of proof to back them up with. But please don’t let me stop you from trying to support your hollow case. Go on please just one little bit of fact to get you of the hook.


OK...here you go in june 1989 Synapsismos of which KKE was one of the partners joined New Democracy in a government....which as we all know did NOT oust capitalism. Did NOT bring about revolution. Did NOT bring abouta workers state. And merely provided a left wing face to capitalism in Greece.

Before and after that time KKE participated in elections within the bourgeoisie parliamentary system.

Right now they are part of the Europen Left-Nordic Greens withing the EU which does NOT run on a revolutionary platform but has according to its constitution committed to integration.


So there is your evidence....Must suck to be you right now.

[Crux]

So, comrade Delenda Carthago, I am sorry let me try and do something you do not. That is engage constructively.

A “Left government” is a “leaking lifeboat” for the people who are suffering (http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-05-09-aristeri-kyvernisi)


In its statement, the Press Office of the CC of the KKE notes the following regarding the statements of Alexis Tsipras:

In his statement today A. Tsipras used the mandate which he received to assist his next election campaign, making partial proposals which have the character of a pre-election campaign statement aimed at the most desperate people in order to mislead them and steal votes.

Despite the basic fact that a government must deal with more than 4 or 5 issues- it must deal with all the issues- A Tsipras bypassed this reality as if it did not exist. The KKE highlights the following:

The memorandum and the loan agreement are not going to be abolished by the proposals of A. Tsipra. Despite this fact, he presented certain proposals, as pro-people way out, which conceal the generalised anti-people offensive of the monopolies and their parties, the commitments which all the EU member-states have undertaken, such as the “Europe 2020 Strategy”, policies which are incorporated in the memorandum and the loan agreement.

The proposals of A. Tsipras clearly state that the workers will be called on to pay again for a large section of the debt for which they are not responsible, while the people needs the cancellation of the debt. At the same time these proposals leave the way open for privatizations and for the implementation of new anti-worker measures by the capitalists (salaries of 400 euros, flexible labour relations etc.). They leave the reactionary changes in education, healthcare and welfare untouched.

The declarations regarding the public control of the banks for the benefit of the small and medium-sized businesses are a conscious effort at deception, as they condemn them to taking out new loans in the conditions of their suffocating encirclement by the monopolies.

The proclamations of A. Tsipras regarding “productive reconstruction with sensitivity to ecological matters” are related to the same development path which has already led to the deep crisis and the bankruptcy of the people, while it ignores the Common Agricultural Policy and its consequences for the poor farmers.

The silence regarding the permanent treaty obligations undertaken by the Greek governments within the framework of NATO and the imperialist plans to intervene in the Eastern Mediterranean, is extremely characteristic of the submission of SYN/Syriza to the ruling class and its international allies. Such a government will complicate and sharpen the people’s problems.

Hear hear, comrades! However, suppose the next election rolls around and the possibility comes for actually forming a left government, and the KKE are in a parliamentary "king maker" position. Will the KKE then say: "We will support a left government, if it is a genuine left government. These are our demands." or will you say, to quote the end of your statement:

The people must divorce themselves from all those who call on them to continue along the nightmarish “EU one-way-street”, whether they have a pro or anti-memorandum façade.

The battle will be determined first of all within Greece and not only within the EU. In addition, the notorious “ European wind of change” which Hollande is allegedly bringing, is not related to the peoples but the struggle of the monopolies of every country for domination.

9/5/2012

[Luís Henrique]

I did a quick calculation and with this poll the political parties would get the following.

Syriza 129 seats
N D 57
Pasok 36
I G 29
KKE 20
G D 16
Dimar 13

It Takes 151 seats to have a majority.

One problem is that the results of the poll, as published, do not include projections for the vote of the parties that did not manage to reach the 3% threshold in May 6th; a few of them however were quite close to it (Greens, LAOS, DISY, Recreate Greece). Should any of them increase their share of the vote by one percentual point, they would win seats (likely eight) in the parliament, decreasing the seat share of the seven bigger parties. And looking at the poll figures, SYRIZA is up by 7 percentual points, but the other six parties are down by 12%. Of course, maybe this difference has gone indecided, but it is also quite possible that some of the small party is making gains.

On the other hand, DIMAR and Golden Dawn now seem to be in danger of not reaching 3% of the vote, and consequently of failing to elect any MPs.

Notice that KKE seems poised to lose more votes than any other party, which was predictable due to their extremely incompetent politics of reformist strategy combined with "ultra-left" tactics. They would lose, according to this poll, 2.5 percentual points, slightly more than PASOK's 2.4 loss (but as PASOK has more votes to lose, this means KKE is proportionally losing significantly more than PASOK).

Anyway, with such numbers, SYRIZA would need an alliance with one of the pro-austerity parties(very unlikely), or an alliance with right wing Independent Greeks (quite unlikely), or an alliance with both KKE (still unlikely) and DIMAR to form a government. Maybe the KKE, having shoot their own feet by playing the intransigents, will make a U-turn and accept a minor role in SYRIZA's government - and then probably work to sabotage it internally. But other than that, figures would have to further change to make forming a government possible.

Luís Henrique

[Rainsborough]

Try reading the article.


The head of Greece's Radical Left Coalition, Alexis Tsiparas (http://www.cnbc.com/id/47334408/) told CNBC Thursday that he will “go as far as I can” to keep Greece in the euro zone, despite declaring earlier this week that the Greek bailout agreement (http://www.cnbc.com/id/47334408/) is “null and void” and should be abandoned. Sounds like a man about to switch horses to me.

[Vninect]

One problem is that the results of the poll, as published, do not include projections for the vote of the parties that did not manage to reach the 3% threshold in May 6th; a few of them however were quite close to it (Greens, LAOS, DISY, Recreate Greece). Should any of them increase their share of the vote by one percentual point, they would win seats (likely eight) in the parliament, decreasing the seat share of the seven bigger parties. And looking at the poll figures, SYRIZA is up by 7 percentual points, but the other six parties are down by 12%. Of course, maybe this difference has gone indecided, but it is also quite possible that some of the small party is making gains.

On the other hand, DIMAR and Golden Dawn now seem to be in danger of not reaching 3% of the vote, and consequently of failing to elect any MPs.

Notice that KKE seems poised to lose more votes than any other party, which was predictable due to their extremely incompetent politics of reformist strategy combined with "ultra-left" tactics. They would lose, according to this poll, 2.5 percentual points, slightly more than PASOK's 2.4 loss (but as PASOK has more votes to lose, this means KKE is proportionally losing significantly more than PASOK).

Anyway, with such numbers, SYRIZA would need an alliance with one of the pro-austerity parties(very unlikely), or an alliance with right wing Independent Greeks (quite unlikely), or an alliance with both KKE (still unlikely) and DIMAR to form a government. Maybe the KKE, having shoot their own feet by playing the intransigents, will make a U-turn and accept a minor role in SYRIZA's government - and then probably work to sabotage it internally. But other than that, figures would have to further change to make forming a government possible.

Luís Henrique

These polls are of course always inaccurate to a bunch of percentage points. Golden Dawn will score higher in actual elections - people don't want to admit they vote fascist. And if it is true that they are only polling for existing parties, then that might give a little rattle to the whole thing, too. So I don't think it's useful to extrapolate from these results, especially when the trends are small.

I think the only thing we can say from this, is that there is an interesting rise for Syriza, at the cost of all the others; and there is not yet the shift of votes required to make a proper Syriza gov' or Syriza+1 coalition (the only candidate for which appears to be DIMAR, though in blissful naitivé, I could see a role for the KKE in such a coalition).

[Threetune]

OK...here you go in june 1989 Synapsismos of which KKE was one of the partners joined New Democracy in a government....which as we all know did NOT oust capitalism. Did NOT bring about revolution. Did NOT bring abouta workers state. And merely provided a left wing face to capitalism in Greece.

Before and after that time KKE participated in elections within the bourgeoisie parliamentary system.

Right now they are part of the Europen Left-Nordic Greens withing the EU which does NOT run on a revolutionary platform but has according to its constitution committed to integration.


So there is your evidence....Must suck to be you right now.

If you have your pills handy, prepare to take them now. The evidence we are looking for, is evidence that I support the KKE in any way, which is the whole thrust of your last eight posts at least. And you never thought to check before letting you mouth run away with you. Not too bright are you.

However, you have provided some sound incontrovertible evidence that you share the same attitude as every single left and right bourgeois party in Greece, on the question of proletarian dictatorship. Like the bourgeois in Greece including the reformists the Stalinists and Trotskyites and the fascists – you hate any discussion of workers dictatorship because as a middle class counter-revolutionary you correctly fear the necessary discipline of revolutionary workers building communism out of the ruins of capitalism.

Maybe you anarchist can explain to the Greek workers facing devious electoral propaganda, why it is that you ‘intellectual’ anarchists can have the time to read about and discuss the pros and cons of the dictatorship of the proletariat, but for the working class to do the same is considered by you anarchist gentlemen to be “presumptuous” and “very, very premature.” to discuss a central plank of communist understanding since Weydemeyer first coined the term, because every anti-communist trend in Greece is united in a holy pact to prevent workers debating the only solution that can save the entire working class from otherwise certain disaster?

[Luís Henrique]

Sounds like a man about to switch horses to me.

It is quite possible, of course, though it all depends on what he conceives as "far as I can". Evidently he is helped by the election of Hollande and the discourse of a "pact for growth" that comes with it.

If he does switch horses, his party will disappear in weeks; the only reason it won so much votes is its opposition to austerity. They do not have an "inertial" vote due to tradition such as New Democracy, PASOK, and KKE undoubtly have. So either he is going to have to be extremely artful in doing it while looking as he isn't, or he will prove a weird kind of opportunist - a suicidal opportunist.

The deep problem, of course, is what a "pact for growth" can achieve at this moment, if it is even possible. As far as I understand, it is in the belief in such "growth" (which evidently can only be a capitalist growth) that the reformism of SYRIZA (and of DIMAR, and KKE, and KKE-ML, etc.) lies...

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Like the bourgeois in Greece including the reformists the Stalinists and Trotskyites and the fascists – you hate any discussion of workers dictatorship because as a middle class counter-revolutionary you correctly fear the necessary discipline of revolutionary workers building communism out of the ruins of capitalism.

No party in Greece is calling for a dictatorship of the proletariat at this moment. And no non-party movement, league, federation, group, sect, cult, church, organisation, whatever, is either.

So yes, we know that the only solution for the present crisis of capitalism is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the rule of worker councils, the expropriation of factories, offices and farms, etc; and that, not in Greece, but in a significant - in population and production - number of countries. What we don't know yet is how to do it, beyond the quite obvious realisation that going through the streets of Athens shouting "all power to the working class" won't solve anything at this moment.

The working class has to earnestly push for power, it has to want to be the ruling class, or it won't be able to establish its own dictatorship. And that is difficult at a moment when the working class barely recognises itself as a class.

Luís Henrique

[Threetune]

No party in Greece is calling for a dictatorship of the proletariat at this moment. And no non-party movement, league, federation, group, sect, cult, church, organisation, whatever, is either.

So yes, we know that the only solution for the present crisis of capitalism is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the rule of worker councils, the expropriation of factories, offices and farms, etc; and that, not in Greece, but in a significant - in population and production - number of countries. What we don't know yet is how to do it, beyond the quite obvious realisation that going through the streets of Athens shouting "all power to the working class" won't solve anything at this moment.

The working class has to earnestly push for power, it has to want to be the ruling class, or it won't be able to establish its own dictatorship. And that is difficult at a moment when the working class barely recognises itself as a class.

Luís Henrique

Who advocated walking through the streets shouting anything? But you know, you might have a good idea there.
It would be self evidently just foolish to ONLY go through the streets of Athens shouting "all power to the working class" it would be necessary to go through the streets of other towns and cities as well as intervening at meetings and using every available outlet to begin the discussion.
If as you correctly say, “we know that the only solution for the present crisis of capitalism is a dictatorship of the proletariat, the rule of worker councils, the expropriation of factories, offices and farms, etc; then how is it possible to do that without the massive widespread discussion which is condemned on here as just “talk” by the anarchist spokesman. ‘Talking’ about the dictatorship of the proletariat would be the best ‘practice’ for all revolutionaries right now.

[Sasha]

i dont think i could put it better than this greek poster does:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8717&stc=1&d=1336755316


“The people do not know their true power”
Anti-authoritarian haunt at Panteion University (http://stekipanteios.espiv.net/)

[Tim Cornelis]

i dont think i could put it better than this greek poster does:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8717&stc=1&d=1336755316


“The people do not know their true power”
Anti-authoritarian haunt at Panteion University (http://stekipanteios.espiv.net/)

It's not a Greek poster actually, I've seen an English and Dutch copy. English seems to be the original.

----------------

Poll results:

Syriza: 23.8%, up from 16.8% in the election
New Democracy: 17.4%, down from 18.9%
Pasok: 10.8%, down from 13.2%
Independent Greeks: 8.7%, down from 10.6%
KKE: 6.0%, down from 8.48%
Golden Dawn: 4.9%, down from 7%
Dimar: 4.0%, down from 6.11%

How is that the KKE is less popular now than before the crisis?

[Red Commissar]

I don't want to seem like I'm derailing the current conversation regarding the KKE, SYRIZA, and the rest of the groups, but I just want to make a comment about how this election was received outside left circles. Just observing from the mainstream media and rants from self-styled experts on Yurop.

Generally the consensus is that the election in Greece is a "no" to austerity, but the ramification so that seems to vary on what end of the country's politics they come from. A vibe I seem to be getting though from some these folks is that "Greeks" are A. Don't want to tighten their belts B. Mooch off Europe for bailouts, and C.

I guess it's just another aspect of this "southern European" nonsense though that some people fall back on to explain the Eurozone crisis. Taking a sampling I've seen elsewhere:



It was seen 2 years ago already that when the strict austerity measures hit Greece, there will be no political will to push them through. Greece should have been shown the door out of the Eurozone, but the euro-elite was too proud to admit a defeat.

Greece will not pass the austerity measures.
1) Greece runs out of money, other Eurozone countries won't give new packages anymore
2) Greece can't fund its banks, they run out money -> people will withdraw their money from the banks in panic
3) The banks can't do transfers to abroad and can't pay debts, the European Central Bank has to say no
4) Greece is forced out of the Euro and will create their own currency

This was already known a long time ago that Greeks will never support radical saving measures.

But, in the mean time Germany and France passed new packages of billions of Euros from AAA countries like the Netherlands and Finland. Yes, the private losses of German and French banks were socialized to other European countries. Absolutely disgusting.

Guessing it's a Euroskeptic but it's amusing seeing that it appears that again, all of Europe's problems are the burden of the Greeks themselves. If it wasn't for the fact that media is essentially spewing this too, this would be roundly be considered a very simplistic and erroneous conclusion.

[Luís Henrique]

How is that the KKE is less popular now than before the crisis?

63% of voters want the parties to find a solution and put up a government... and evidently KKE doesn't come out as facilitating the task.

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

PASOK has also failed to reach a formation plan. Syriza and New Democracy refused to ally themselves with pro-austerity parties.

Right now it is up to the pesident to make a final attempt in getting a government going and if that fails there will be new elections.

[PhoenixAsh]

If you have your pills handy, prepare to take them now. The evidence we are looking for, is evidence that I support the KKE in any way, which is the whole thrust of your last eight posts at least. And you never thought to check before letting you mouth run away with you. Not too bright are you.

"we" are not looking for anything. Your whole conduct in this thread has been to protect the KKE from criticism by eveading the arguments posted and that in itself is evidence enough of your position.

Seeing as your arguments neither were relevant to the thread topic nor to the post you replied to and you now deny to support KKE....we come to an interesting junction in the debate. Either you weer purposefully derailing the thread by flamebaiting and trolling or you are in fact supporting the KKE.

The choice is up to you. Which one is it?



However, you have provided some sound incontrovertible evidence that you share the same attitude as every single left and right bourgeois party in Greece, on the question of proletarian dictatorship. Like the bourgeois in Greece including the reformists the Stalinists and Trotskyites and the fascists – you hate any discussion of workers dictatorship because as a middle class counter-revolutionary you correctly fear the necessary discipline of revolutionary workers building communism out of the ruins of capitalism.

I hate discussion of the DOTP in a thread where it is neither relevant or in a situation where the shouting of "we need DOTP to solve the problems" are anything but mindless posturing.

That aside I made my views of the DOTP pretty damned clear and I think any vanguard party who tries to take power away from the workers by deciding FOR them what is good and what is wrong is an enemy of the working class.

The DOTP in your sense of the word is in my opinion an abomination and leads to the creation of class devisions and authoritarian controll of the working class. It is, as history has shown, the insturment for the creation of just another socio-econmic elite and state capitalism/exploitation of the working class and is neither revolutionary nor left wing.

The suggestion that ANY vanguard party can replace complete and open workers control in direct democratic procedures and workplace controll of the workers is ludicrous because that is entirely and ONLY up to the workers as a whole. You reject this notion and you seem to be of the opinion that workers themselves do not know and are unable to know what is best for them. Your patronizing and haughty position places you above workers as mentally, socially and politically their superior....and that my fuzzy little friend...is exactly why you are elitist and counter revolutionary.




Maybe you anarchist can explain to the Greek workers facing devious electoral propaganda, why it is that you ‘intellectual’ anarchists can have the time to read about and discuss the pros and cons of the dictatorship of the proletariat, but for the working class to do the same is considered by you anarchist gentlemen to be “presumptuous” and “very, very premature.” to discuss a central plank of communist understanding since Weydemeyer first coined the term, because every anti-communist trend in Greece is united in a holy pact to prevent workers debating the only solution that can save the entire working class from otherwise certain disaster?

Unless I am mistaken...the working class of Greece is NOT in fact debating a DOTP. In fact...the working class of Greece is voting for reformist parties.

Now I know you have had some problems with comprehensive reading but my origincal post you attacked was about the counter revolutionary tactics of the KKE who, like other European communist parties, have totally managed to outdate themselves and become beholden to the regime and are in fact marginalised in revolutionary politics. I gave arguments for that and one explanation I gave was their non stop attacks on other revolutionary groups as being counter revolutionary and reject union of the revolutionary left.

As an answer to this you decided in a no so very puzzling move, given your political allegiance, to attack Anarchism as counter revolutionary. Which immediately proved my point.

Your only reason to do so was your wish to protect a plitical organisation which is renownd for their betrayal of the working class and who time and time again has directly prevented demonstrations and rallies from expanding and evolving into revolutionary situations.

Now your ONLY answer to this has been your repeated rehash of the position that the only thing that can safe the working class in Greece is the DOTP. A position which is blatantly stupid since for a DOTP to be even created in the first place there first needs to be a revolution.

And since that is not going to happen thanks to the help of the KKE...So there is not going to be a revolution...and that revolution is something we anarchists on this site have been calling for to happen for months now (and one of the main reason we intensely dislike the KKE) and some of us have actively worked towards on location. Unfortunately we were never supported in that effort and even downright fought against by parties which are in fact posing as vanguardists. Parties...one in particular...who have up until this day refused to create and help create a revoltionary situation and have done all in their power to prevent one from comming into existance.

Now your vanguardism has been done. There is no vanguard party in Greece. Everywheer a vanguard party has taken the lead in revolutions the revolutions have become corrupted and have failed to lead to a workers state and instead devolved into a dictatorship of party elites.

So no....vanguardist elites is not something I care deeply about. I see them as a danger to the revolutionary movement. Doesn't necessarilly have to be the case...but most likely they will.

Now you have become ridiculously feverish in your attempts to paint anarchists as bourgeoisie collaborators. Naturally this doesn't come as a real surprise from somebody who supports a system in which people who do not agree with your insane notion of how to rule and exploit the working class for their own political gain are executed and murdered....

[Rainsborough]

Originally Posted by hindsight20/20 http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2442166#post2442166)
There is no vanguard party in Greece. Everywheer a vanguard party has taken the lead in revolutions the revolutions have become corrupted and have failed to lead to a workers state and instead devolved into a dictatorship of party elites.

Is that so? Then can you tell me where a where a revolution has succeded without a Vanguard party?

[No_Leaders]

Is that so? Then can you tell me where a where a revolution has succeded without a Vanguard party?
The better question is show me a successful revolution with a vanguard party? By successful i mean one where you didn't have secret police, work camps, suppression of democratic workers councils etc. This isn't even the thread for this kinda discussion, i'm sure we can dig up an old "Is the Vanguard necessary" thread if need be. Hindsight is merely defending himself from silly alegations by a guy who seems to sidestep any serious points made and merely continues to call anarchist counter-revolutionary without responding back to the serious points made.

[TheMyth]

The better question is show me a successful revolution with a vanguard party? By successful i mean one where you didn't have secret police, work camps, suppression of democratic workers councils etc. This isn't even the thread for this kinda discussion, i'm sure we can dig up an old "Is the Vanguard necessary" thread if need be. Hindsight is merely defending himself from silly alegations by a guy who seems to sidestep any serious points made and merely continues to call anarchist counter-revolutionary without responding back to the serious points made.
One things is having whole world as communist another thing is only a few countrys .
That0s why it was need secret police and work camps to avoid ruining the state to bring back to capitalism.

[PhoenixAsh]

One things is having whole world as communist another thing is only a few countrys .
That0s why it was need secret police and work camps to avoid ruining the state to bring back to capitalism.

And in effect that ruined that state, perverted communism and ruined the theory of communism for the next generations...

Communism is now forever associated with workcamps and bloody torture in one of the KGB/Tcheka holding cells...and the supression of workers rights.

And what is more...the vanguard made pretty damned clear that if you are a revolutionary you pretty much want to steer clear of people who think that secret police are necessary in order to controll the population...lest you find yourself swinging from some gallows or floating in a river.

[PhoenixAsh]

Is that so? Then can you tell me where a where a revolution has succeded without a Vanguard party?

Do you want the examples your precious vanguard party ruined or the ones it did not?

[Raúl Duke]

As far as I can see, the whole Eurozone crisis is getting really hot and it does kinda seem like either the EU will reform or countries will leave the Euro currency.

I'm also skeptical that the Greek people will get what they want from the government...no matter what party is running the show.

[Raúl Duke]

I can only see two sides of this coin:

Either the Greek government finds an anti-austerity solution, with or without the EU.

or

The Greek government will continue to discredit themselves (and thus, for leftists, further discredit the notion that participating in electoral politics is worthwhile) in a variety of possible ways, whether or not they form a government.

[Crux]

I hear DIMAR is contemplating forming a pro-austerity government with PASOK and ND. Fucking scabs!

[aty]

As far as I can see, the whole Eurozone crisis is getting really hot and it does kinda seem like either the EU will reform or countries will leave the Euro currency.

This crisis will create another destructive war in Europe if not us socialists take control over the situation. Europe is blowing up at the moment with unemployment standing at 11% and 25% youth unemployment at the moment in the whole EU-zone. This will generate into big social uprisings.

I already sense today that socialist theory is getting more and more revolutionary and more and more people is starting to wake up. In europe we are more at a situation where we are creating theories for the coming struggle and right now the mobilizing process have just started. In 2-3 years I expect the socialist movement to be really strong, as the nationalist movement will be also.

Exciting times ahead...

[Threetune]

This crisis will create another destructive war in Europe if not us socialists take control over the situation. Europe is blowing up at the moment with unemployment standing at 11% and 25% youth unemployment at the moment in the whole EU-zone. This will generate into big social uprisings.

I already sense today that socialist theory is getting more and more revolutionary and more and more people is starting to wake up. In europe we are more at a situation where we are creating theories for the coming struggle and right now the mobilizing process have just started. In 2-3 years I expect the socialist movement to be really strong, as the nationalist movement will be also.

Exciting times ahead...

Spot on. It’s the economic crisis that is driving the Greek “electorate” and everybody else towards more domestic chaos, wars and revolutions whether we like it or not. The only question now is, which class will come out of the chaos and mayhem on top.

By all means examine the mistakes and idiocies of the first courageous attempts at running life without capitalists but to pretend that this titanic class struggle is going to be settled without more desperate capitalist viciousness, which will have to be ruled ‘out of order’ by increasingly powerful workers states in every parish and continent, is just childish make-believe, at best.

Wars and revolutions COMPELL people to ‘take positions’ adopt attitudes and behaviour that previously would have been almost unimaginable. In Greece now it is the voting patterns, the strikes, the demonstrations none of which in themselves will solve anything.
Why should communist revolutionaries not put there revolutionary policy to the vote and stand on a platform of socialist proletarian dictatorship in opposition to bankrupt capitalist dictatorship. Too early? Too premature? Too advanced? Well the reactionaries of every description don’t think it’s too early to advance their violent hideous and divisive policies against the working class.

So which ‘left’ heroes in Greece now are refusing to advance a revolutionary program?

[Luís Henrique]

I hear DIMAR is contemplating forming a pro-austerity government with PASOK and ND. Fucking scabs!

Well, no, their position is not that, though it is possibly not better than that.

What they propose is a government that include all parties - or at least SYRIZA - and that would "disengage from the memorandum" gradually up to the next European elections.

It is a smart position - they won't demoralise themselves alone, they require at least the equivalent demoralisation of SYRIZA - that tries to put the bill for ungovernability back into SYRIZA's account. But I think the rage of the Greek voters with "austerity" has gone beyond the point at which DIMAR's proposal could be effective. "Gradual disengagement" sounds too much as "no disengagement at all" to be taken in serious after May 6th.

On another note, this is very worrysome:


Greek police overwhelmingly vote for neo-Nazi Golden Dawn (http://geopoli.net/archives/474): According to a mainstream Greek newspaper between 45 and 59 percent of police in Athens voted for the Golden Dawn, an unabashedly fascist political party.

The mainstream Greek newspaper would be one that has a website "www.iefimerida.gr", which I can't read because it is, well, Greek, and in a non-metaphorical way.

Luís Henrique

[Vninect]

The mainstream Greek newspaper would be one that has a website "www.iefimerida.gr", which I can't read because it is, well, Greek, and in a non-metaphorical way.

Luís Henrique

There is a thread on it here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/analysis-indicates-1-t171445/index.html

That thread features a pretty close translation of what seems to be written in the original newspaper article (google translate comes close to it). As I said in that thread, it seems to be completely bogus science. It doesn't seem to account for chance at all. I'd be extremely hesitant to believe it.

However, in abovelinked thread, there is a youtube video showing plaincloth folk standing next to police, throwing stones at protesters. Apparently, they are shouting nazi-slogans, while the protesters respond with anti-nazi slogans: I have to take that on faith, because I don't speak Greek. If true, that is way more significant than the probably funky probability calculation featured in the mainstream newspaper.

[PhoenixAsh]

The latest polls show a marginal increase for ND and PASOK...and a further decline of KKE and GD...

We are going to see those kinds of results more in the comming weeks to new elections. Attempt at influencing

[Delenda Carthago]

Introduction of the GS of the CC of the KKE, Aleka Papariga, to the press conference



http://inter.kke.gr/mail_icon.gif (http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-05-11-synentefxi-aleka/sendto_form)
http://inter.kke.gr/print_icon.gif



http://www2.rizospastis.gr/getImage.do?size=medium&id=363332&format=.jpg

The Assessment of the KKE regarding the revealing procedure-fraud of the exploratory mandates, which were part of the general plan for the mass manipulation and the disarmament of the people with the focus on the next elections

This is the reason why the KKE, when it was asked before the elections what it would do in case it received the exploratory mandate, clarified honestly and boldly before the people (without caring about the cost it would have regarding votes) that it WOULD immediately return the mandate. The KKE clarified that it will not participate in a government of bourgeois management that objectively entails an anti-people way out from the crisis. It is very well aware of the position and the practice of other parties, that none of the proposed governments, either those in favour of “negotiation” or those in favour of the “amendment” and a new Memorandum can solve the acute problems, even approach the needs of the people. This is the content of the historical responsibility, regarding which SYRIZA denounces us. We reply to them by commenting that they are demonstrating a historically irresponsible stance in relation to the people.

Respecting the institution of the mandates does not mean that the various parties should make exploratory attempts with hypocritical discussions and proposals since one or more parties have decided not to participate in the government as they want a new round of elections for their own purposes. Why, for instance, did SYRIZA not say from the beginning that it wants a one party government so as to avoid this wretched game which unfortunately will continue over the next few days?

For this reason we asked for elections yesterday, not because elections constitute, as it is usually said, the culmination of the people’s intervention, the solution for the people’s problems but in order to stop the deception. In any case, we are heading for elections. Therefore, the people must be ready to intervene drawing conclusions from this process of deception. These are staged games. But even if they form a government at the last moment the people should again be vigilant because elections will be around the corner.



OLD AND NEW MODERNIZED DILEMMAS



We assess at the same time that each party via the procedure of the mandates attempted to place at the centre of the people’s attention new misleading dilemmas so that if new elections are held the people will be trapped in old and modernized dilemmas and that the endurance of radical popular masses will be reduced in the face of the pressure.
Such dilemmas are:
FIRST: euro or drachma, despite the fact that whether with the euro or the drachma the people will be destitute.
SECOND: Greek or European solution, despite the fact that the issue will be determined by the class struggle and confrontation within Greece first of all and of course at a European level, not by negotiations but by strengthening the European labour and people’s movement in its struggle against the EU, in rupture with it.
THIRDLY: Austerity or development, but the path of capitalist development entails austerity in the conditions of the sharpening capitalist competition, and sharpening inter-imperialist contradictions.
FOURTH: right or left, Memorandum or Anti-memorandum, dilemmas which will also take on other forms, according to the developments, through the new form of the two poles centre-right-centre-left. These dilemmas, for which Syriza bears very serious responsibilities, marginalised and obscured the real contradictions inside Greece and the EU.

The real question for the Greek people is:

GREECE-WORKING PEOPLE INDEPENDENT AND FREED FROM THE EUROPEAN COMMITMENTS OR A GREECE INCORPORATED IN THE IMPERIALIST EU? The real contradiction inside Greece and in the EU is between the capitalist businesses, the monopoly businesses and the interests of the working class, the self-employed in the city and countryside, the contradiction between the governance of the people’s power and the power for the perpetuation of the bourgeois class.

Especially Syriza with its continuous mutations and also its general programme is attempting to use a left façade to persuade the people that the capitalist and workers can co-exist and prosper. Indeed, it is demanding social support for a left government, with the desire of persuading the people to take the position of the applauding audience, when the people must be demanding, must monitor and must be emancipated in relation to the government. It wants a priori to impose reduced expectations on the people with the dilemma left-right, in the logic of PASOK in the 1980s. With its positions today it is of course not a faithful imitator of PASOK, which then had advanced slogans such as EEC AND NATO ARE THE SAME SYNDICATE, OUT WITH THE AMERICAN BASES. It imitates its tactics, which is very negative for the people.

Each of the parties which had the responsibility of the mandate, and those that took part in the dialogue, utilised the open interventions of the EU and the IMF to consolidate the dilemmas. These despicable interventions are not new or unprecedented. They existed further back in the past, there were open and blackmailing dilemmas during the Papandreou and Papademos governments and will continue after the elections whatever government is formed. Here it is also revealed that a government, which states that it wants to keep Greece in the EU at all costs cannot negotiate or renegotiate for a pro-people way out from the crisis, in favour of the people’s rights. Finally, it will sign the EU decisions, at the most uttering some minor objections as PASOK did during its first period of government.

The only patriotic pro-people position is the unilateral cancellation of the debt, the struggle for the disengagement from the EU and its blackmails.

These blackmailing and intimidating dilemmas are creating the two new poles of two-party rotation, absolutely painless for the business groups, and in the end useful for the EU, as they all agree with the participation in the EU and therefore compliance with it. The people must not reinforce these two poles with their vote, reproduce them or support them in any way.

By attacking each other, they are seeking to stabilize and embed in the consciousness of the people the inevitability of assimilation into the EU, and consequently in NATO and the participation in imperialist wars, despite the fact that they do not touch on the latter, as if it does not concern the government, which will be elected. It is not at all accidental that among the various proposals and the 5 points promoted by Syriza in society, this is not included either as an axis or in the content: namely, what would the governmental delegation of the Tsipras government do when it takes part in the NATO summit, with the imperialist strategy of “intelligent defence” as its theme, that is to say with the subject of measures and policies to make the imperialist alliance more flexible and deadly. We remind you that the NATO summit will be held on the 20-21 of May. Unless of course Syriza, is seeking a one-party government, wants to avoid committing itself now or to avoid its participation in a summit, which just a few days after the formation of a government would expose it through the signing of the NATO summit’s decision.

The eclecticism and the choice of topics are characteristic of Syriza’s 5 points so that it can approach a specific audience, as if a government does not have to deal with all the problems. We witnessed the intervention of the Hellenic Federation of Industrialists to safeguard the stability of Greece in the EU in opposition to the people and in order to prevent the sharpening of the class struggle.

ND is mocking the people’s consciousness with the misleading argument that Syriza is leading the country out of the EU and Syriza is responding that it will ensure that Greece stays in the EU at all costs, something which is true. While at the same time it is lying when it claims that the “EU one-way street” can become more humane and pro-people. PASOK is stating that it can find agreement with Syriza as it says it is in favour of the EU and the euro. Syriza is lying that it will cancel the memorandum and the loan agreement and that it will free the people from the debt. And these three together with the Democratic Left are leading the people to the same blackmailing fear, but from different approaches, and are placing a barrier against a truly different and radical alternative solution.

These are dilemmas which absolutely serve the agonized attempts of the ruling class, faced with the danger of a popular uprising, to regroup its political staff, through the creation of a new renewed bipolar system of the centre-left and the centre-right, centre-right and the left with the governmental left fully assimilated into it. The governmental left, which allegedly does not hesitate to take on responsibilities, is the vehicle for the assimilation, subjugation and even breaking of the labour movement, the foiling of its social alliance with the self-employed in the city and countryside. Armed with the stick and when necessary the carrot, to turn the movement into an applauding spectator, bought off with temporary benefits (crumbs in the conditions of reduced demands) due to the crisis and destitution), which are painless for the system. A special goal so that this strategic aim can be achieved is to weaken in every way, including using repression, the vanguard role of the KKE in the labour and people’s movement, in the rallying of anti-monopoly anti-imperialist forces, or to force it to mutate, so that the system’s safety net is reinforced. The only ones who would be satisfied by such a development would be the industrialists, the ship-owners, and the monopoly groups. Neither of these two inter-connected attempts will be successful.

The election battle has begun. It is an opportunity for the suffering people to understand that there is a real danger that the radicalism, which they demonstrated, that the tendency to seek an alternative solution will be subjugated to the illusion of the “solution here and now”, the lesser evil, “something better” whatever that may be.

We are not living in the 1970s and 1980s during the ND and then the PASOK governments, in favourable conditions for capitalism. This period has ended, a period which allowed certain concessions to be made and reforms, which were harmless for the system in Greece, which had been previously been carried out in capitalist Europe. The path of capitalist development inevitably leads to economic crisis, to today’s circumstances, when a historical revenge has been taken against the peoples of Europe through the abolition of all the gains and concessions made after the war and in the case of Greece after the dictatorship.

The opportunity is being presented to those who wish to struggle for a better life- in the midst of the grotesque image of this week of mandates, when each party is trying to sound pleasing, to present itself as a militant negotiator- to correct the people’s vote in order to strengthen the KKE.

To reflect on the essence of the pro-people way out of the crisis and pro-people development and on what a people’s government means.

The future will be even more difficult and the people must not play a waiting game, and must not believe that the results of the elections can correct or overthrow the barbaric political line, which they have experienced, which is due to capitalism and the assimilation of Greece in the EU, with or without Merkel and Sarkozy.

The people have a major opportunity today to utilise their experience and not to throw it away in the name of the crisis, the dilemmas and illusions. The people and the country need a strong KKE and a movement fully emancipated from every governmental, employer and EU embrace. Consequently the vote must serve the regroupment of the labour movement, the social alliance and this is the reason why the strengthening of the KKE is important.

The people will pay a high price for every retreat from this perspective. The price will be new torments and disappointments and the loss of valuable time.

Athens 10/5/2012 THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE CC OF THE KKE

[PhoenixAsh]

hehehe....vote for the KKE so we can change capitalism from within the capitalist system....

So when exactly is the KKE going to call for a revolution? Because this here is election rethoric in order to convince people to vote for the KKE so they can have more power in order to force the political system to their will by parliamentary means.

I especilly love this passage:


strategic aim can be achieved is to weaken in every way, including using rasking for votes. epression, the vanguard role of the KKE in the labour and people’s movement, in the rallying of anti-monopoly anti-imperialist forces, or to force it to mutate, so that the system’s safety net is reinforced. The only ones who would be satisfied by such a development would be the industrialists, the ship-owners, and the monopoly groups. Neither of these two inter-connected attempts will be successful.

Vanguard role? lol....


This does not mean I disagree with a lot of things they say here...I just think it is on a lot of points relatively correct. But it is so ironic that they lack any form of realism about their own position and in fact do nothing more or less than they accuse the other parties of doing while trying (and failing here) to assume some revolutionary image....

[Lenina Rosenweg]

As I understand there is discontent with the KKE over their refusal to enter some sort of coalition with Syriza. Is there a possibility of a split within the KKE? Is this being discussed at all?

Also, what are the prospects for Syriza to be able to form a government if new elections are held in June?

[PhoenixAsh]

KKE refuses to partake in any coalition at the moment. They have the right arguments for it...

So far I have not heard of any notable opposition to this within the KKE and I think it is very unlikely that the KKE would split over the issue.

For as far the KKE's arguments are right there is no cooperation possible when the two alternatives are pro-austerity & pro-Europe vs pro-Europe & Anti-austerity.

From a situationist perspective however that leaves a very scatttered political theater. SYRIZA can not govern without either the KKE or PASOK. And since both currently refuse to cooperate with SYRIZA there is no possible government to be formed. The new polls show that SYRIZA and ND & PASOK will win in the next elections at the further expense of the KKE/GD. So the situation only seems to be more polarized. Which would lead us to conclude that either SYRIZA will have to give up their anti-austerity position or PASOK has to give up its pro-austerity position. Both of which could happen...the first being slightly more likely.

[PhoenixAsh]

KKE refuses to partake in any coalition at the moment. They have the right arguments for it...

So far I have not heard of any notable opposition to this within the KKE and I think it is very unlikely that the KKE would split over the issue.

For as far the KKE's arguments are right there is no cooperation possible when the two alternatives are pro-austerity & pro-Europe vs pro-Europe & Anti-austerity.

From a situationist perspective however that leaves a very scatttered political theater. SYRIZA can not govern without either the KKE or PASOK. And since both currently refuse to cooperate with SYRIZA there is no possible government to be formed. The new polls show that SYRIZA and ND & PASOK will win in the next elections at the further expense of the KKE/GD. So the situation only seems to be more polarized. Which would lead us to conclude that either SYRIZA will have to give up their anti-austerity position or PASOK has to give up its pro-austerity position. Both of which could happen...the first being slightly more likely.

[Comrade-Z]

Are any of the parties pointing out that capitalism has Greece by the balls regardless of what any government tries to do?

Here are Greece's options:
1. Accede to austerity demands from the EU. Cut spending. Cripple the working class's standard of living in exchange for some vague hope of eventually paying off its loans.
2. Reject the austerity demands. Get kicked out of the EU and the Euro. (Staying in the EU and rejecting austerity is not an option, regardless of whatever fantasy world Syriza would like to believe in). Capital flees Greece. Greece cannot get loans or resources. It becomes a crippled pariah state, hurt particularly bad by its economic isolation by virtue of the fact that it is a small country with few natural resources. (Even the Soviet Union had difficulty being isolated, and it was a large land with many resources). One cannot also discount the possibility of a domestically and/or internationally organized coup/invasion if a Greek government tries to reject austerity demands and loan payments.
3. Hope for immediate Europe-wide revolution so that Greece is not isolated if it rejects the austerity agreements. (Not going to happen).

So, in reality, a government's options boil down to #1 or #2. How do you want your misery? As an enforced-austerity debt slave, or as a pariah state facing possible coups and invasions?

This is why I see electoral politics being especially futile in Greece at the moment. These are realistically the only two options that any party can promise Greece at the moment. The only constructive political response, it would seem to me, would be to try as best one could as a Greek revolutionary to try to foment revolution in Spain, Italy, and ideally in France, Germany, and the rest of Europe. Even if such efforts amount to little, they will at least be a little in a constructive direction.

[Comrade-Z]

I was thinking, since an anti-austerity pariah-state Greece could not really function on its own, let's pose a hypothetical question:

If there were a revolution in Greece in the near future that really did appear to put the working class in power there, which other countries would possibly be inspired enough to jump on board with their own revolutions, realistically?

Spain: decent chance (unsullied revolutionary tradition, unemployment as high as Greece).

Italy: Maybe (feisty revolutionary tradition, financial crisis troubles).

Portugal: Maybe.

France: Tiny chance.

Germany: Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Britain: Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Norway: Probably not.

The problem is, any European communist society really needs Norway for its oil in order to hope to be self-sufficient in essential resources. And any communist Europe without Germany would be pretty weak with a strong counter-revolutionary neighbor next door.

So, until the political atmosphere in Germany changes and we stop hearing all this talk about how the "lazy Southern Europeans deserve to reap what they sow," I'm not very optimistic about anything positive coming out of this.

[marl]

It's impossible to say.

In Greece, there isn't exactly quite a revolutionary situation despite the fact the country has had constant revolts since the December of 2008. Right now, there is a gradual breakdown of authority in Greece (cops becoming Nazis, becoming scared of rioters, running out supplies like tear gas and whatnot quickly, large left-wing movement that takes root in youth and makes them critical of policing), but no alternative (i.e. worker council) to take its place, and that's the issue.

In other European countries, despite their economic situations, they're no where near the situation that Greece is in (and Greece is far from the situation in Petrograd Feburary of 1917).

Of course, Egypt and Tunisia surprised us all, as they came out of nowhere without what's necessary for a revolution. But were they really, truly revolutions? Not quite, as Egypt moved to a military junta and Tunisia moved to a liberal democracy.

[Luís Henrique]

KKE refuses to partake in any coalition at the moment. They have the right arguments for it...

So far I have not heard of any notable opposition to this within the KKE and I think it is very unlikely that the KKE would split over the issue.

For as far the KKE's arguments are right there is no cooperation possible when the two alternatives are pro-austerity & pro-Europe vs pro-Europe & Anti-austerity.

From a situationist perspective however that leaves a very scatttered political theater. SYRIZA can not govern without either the KKE or PASOK. And since both currently refuse to cooperate with SYRIZA there is no possible government to be formed. The new polls show that SYRIZA and ND & PASOK will win in the next elections at the further expense of the KKE/GD. So the situation only seems to be more polarized. Which would lead us to conclude that either SYRIZA will have to give up their anti-austerity position or PASOK has to give up its pro-austerity position. Both of which could happen...the first being slightly more likely.

To put it bluntly, the KKE wants to make a revolution by winning elections... and to win elections by talking about revolution.

Their behaviour is completely irresponsible, both from the point of view of capital and the point of view of revolution.

They think they are in 2010, when they could achieve small but consistent electoral gains through radical rhetorics because everybody expected ND and/or PASOK to actually form governments and take responsibility for whatever good or bad came out of it, and so the more radical fractions of the electorate could consider the KKE as an option as a protest vote, aimed at telling PASOK and ND not to act excessively stupid.

But now people want ND and PASOK out of government asap, and the KKE fails to realise it has to put a credible short term program to deal with the situation if it really wants to win elections. But, of course, that's what they actually fear deep down: that circumstances (such as, God forbid, an electoral victory) would force them to take responsibility and do something to solve the situation.

Because, naturally, they haven't the leastest idea of what to do.

(Not, of course, that SYRIZA knows what to do either, but, for good or bad, they seem willing to try; that's why they are poised to a tragedy, while the KKE is poised to a farce, although likely a bloody one.)

Luís Henrique

[Delenda Carthago]

hehehe....vote for the KKE so we can change capitalism from within the capitalist system....

So when exactly is the KKE going to call for a revolution? Because this here is election rethoric in order to convince people to vote for the KKE so they can have more power in order to force the political system to their will by parliamentary means.

I especilly love this passage:



Vanguard role? lol....


This does not mean I disagree with a lot of things they say here...I just think it is on a lot of points relatively correct. But it is so ironic that they lack any form of realism about their own position and in fact do nothing more or less than they accuse the other parties of doing while trying (and failing here) to assume some revolutionary image....
When a revolution is going to happen is somtheing the people will descide, not KKE. When you ll have strong movements in the streets, when you ll have occupations, when you ll have massive waves of strikes, thats when a revolution will happen. But revolutions happen by classes, not parties.

And please, please, dont accuse KKE that the revolution will happen through elections. One of the reasons SYRIZA took so many votes was that we went to the people with the line "nothing is gonna change though elections and we are not taking part in a bourgeois goverment". And we gonna lose more to keep this line. Please dont attack us as lovers of the ballot just to feed any antiKKE stereotypes. If we wanted, we could be goverment as we speak.

[Luís Henrique]

When a revolution is going to happen is somtheing the people will descide, not KKE. When you ll have strong movements in the streets, when you ll have occupations, when you ll have massive waves of strikes, thats when a revolution will happen. But revolutions happen by classes, not parties.

They do. Now what use is a party that is not part of the class?


And please, please, dont accuse KKE that the revolution will happen through elections.

Then why does the KKE participate in elections?


One of the reasons SYRIZA took so many votes was that we went to the people with the line "nothing is gonna change though elections and we are not taking part in a bourgeois goverment". And we gonna lose more to keep this line. Please dont attack us as lovers of the ballot just to feed any antiKKE stereotypes.

In other words, you participate in the game, but not to win it.


If we wanted, we could be goverment as we speak.

Of course. But you certainly don't want it:


But, of course, that's what they actually fear deep down: that circumstances (such as, God forbid, an electoral victory) would force them to take responsibility and do something to solve the situation.

Because, naturally, they haven't the leastest idea of what to do.

Luís Henrique

[Delenda Carthago]

They do. Now what use is a party that is not part of the class?
Τhe party will propose a way to do the revolution. If people will follow it, its their choice.


Then why does the KKE participate in elections?

Commintern has given the answer long ago on that one.

In other words, you participate in the game, but not to win it.

In other words, we use the situation, but dont expect much from it.

Of course. But you certainly don't want it:

Well done. The propaganda that all the conservative media in our country promote for the last month has found ears listening and in revleft. Whats next? Glenn Beck?

Luís Henrique
Delenda Carthago

[Lenina Rosenweg]

According to what I've read, if new elections are held in June, its estimated that Syriza would get 20% of the vote. Perhaps this would be enough to form a government without the help of the KKE.

Syriza and Alexis Tsipras would be in a bind. If elected it would be on an explicitly anti-austerity platform. In their heart of hearts Synapismos and other elements of Syriza probably want to reach some accommodation with the Troika, Merkel, et al. In the current situation this won't be possible.

A Syriza/left government will be on a knife edge. Acceding to austerity would be seen as treason and would provoke mass unrest. Backing away from austerity would inevitably (in this situation)mean a break with capitalism. It may sound hyperbolic but this could very well be Greece's 1968.

Tsipras sure as hell isn't Lenin but he's not Obama either. The guy will be walking on a precipice.

The KKE has faults but it is a worker's movement. Their sectarianism in this case is not productive.I have heard (anecdotally from contacts in Greece) that some KKE members have actually told people they should vote for Syriza instead.

[Luís Henrique]

Here are Greece's options:

1. Accede to austerity demands from the EU. Cut spending. Cripple the working class's standard of living in exchange for some vague hope of eventually paying off its loans.

This option is evidently incompatible with the Greek vote, which means it is incompatible with a democratic system; a dictatorship would be necessary to enforce it. But... are dictatorships allowed membership in the EU? If I am not mistaken, no, they aren't. So, why would Greece resort to a dictatorship to avoid being expelled from the EU, if resorting to a dictatorship would lead to it... being expelled from the EU?

Or is the EU to accommodate a Greek dictatorship in name of pragmatism? If so, why can't it accommodate a Greek default instead? And how it would then avoid accommodating successive dictatorships in Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Italy, France...? How does it avoid becoming a federation of dictatorships?


2. Reject the austerity demands. Get kicked out of the EU and the Euro. (Staying in the EU and rejecting austerity is not an option, regardless of whatever fantasy world Syriza would like to believe in).

That would be the point: is the EU able or unable to change its policies to avoid Greece's destruction? If it can't, and kicks Greece from the Union, what does this bode for Portugal and Ireland? And for Spain? Italy? the Netherlands? Can the EU survive if it expels Spain? Italy? France? Can the EU survive if it is reduced to... Germany? or is Germany going to lose its iron grip over the monetary policies of the EU?

Which means to ask: is there an option 3., in which Greece forces the EU to change its set-on-stone policies, and what would that entail for the EU and capitalism? Would an inflationary/keynesian EU be better poised to survive as a capitalist confederation than a monetarist/neo-liberal EU?

That's the question the Greek situation is asking.


Capital flees Greece. Greece cannot get loans or resources. It becomes a crippled pariah state, hurt particularly bad by its economic isolation by virtue of the fact that it is a small country with few natural resources.

That's the point of the blackmailing of Greece by the EU at this moment: drink the cyanide by yourselves, else we are going to have to shoot you. The Greek voters have called - or started calling - the bluff.


(Even the Soviet Union had difficulty being isolated, and it was a large land with many resources).

Or is the precedent Argentina, which was as bankrupt as Greece in 2002, defaulted its debt, got isolated, and survived - even as a capitalist country! - when all apologists of capital were predicting it hurling back into the stone ages? I don't know, and I can think of only one way to answer this question.


One cannot also discount the possibility of a domestically and/or internationally organized coup/invasion if a Greek government tries to reject austerity demands and loan payments.

I think we cannot discount the possibility of a domestic coup; but at this moment an anti-austerity ultra-nationalist coup seems more likely than a pro-austerity anti-nationalist coup. I think we can safely discard the possibility of a foreign invasion of Greece at this moment. Who would invade Greece? The US? What for? Germany? How, without immediately bringing back nasty memories of 1939? The EU? With what army exactly?


3. Hope for immediate Europe-wide revolution so that Greece is not isolated if it rejects the austerity agreements. (Not going to happen).

Hoping is always a miserable experience. But what Greece does now will have full impact on the situation of the whole EU, and especially on the situation of Ireland, Portugal, and Spain.


So, in reality, a government's options boil down to #1 or #2. How do you want your misery? As an enforced-austerity debt slave, or as a pariah state facing possible coups and invasions?

If my options were those, I would choose what slaves have always chosen when they had too: to flee, and try to survive in the wild. Apparently this is what the Greeks are doing now.


This is why I see electoral politics being especially futile in Greece at the moment. These are realistically the only two options that any party can promise Greece at the moment.

Sure; but they are also the only options that a non-partisan, non-electoral revolution would be able to promise.


The only constructive political response, it would seem to me, would be to try as best one could as a Greek revolutionary to try to foment revolution in Spain, Italy, and ideally in France, Germany, and the rest of Europe. Even if such efforts amount to little, they will at least be a little in a constructive direction.

But the only thing the Greeks can actually do at this moment to foment a revolution in Spain, Italy, and the rest of Europe... is to engage themselves in the fight against "austerity" as it is framed at this moment. "Propaganda by the deed", if you want so; but the only way to foster a European revolution from Athens, now, is to lead the way.

It is going to be bloody; but who said it wasn't?

Luís Henrique

[Vninect]

I was thinking, since an anti-austerity pariah-state Greece could not really function on its own, let's pose a hypothetical question:

If there were a revolution in Greece in the near future that really did appear to put the working class in power there, which other countries would possibly be inspired enough to jump on board with their own revolutions, realistically?

Spain: decent chance (unsullied revolutionary tradition, unemployment as high as Greece).

Italy: Maybe (feisty revolutionary tradition, financial crisis troubles).

Portugal: Maybe.

France: Tiny chance.

Germany: Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Britain: Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Norway: Probably not.

The problem is, any European communist society really needs Norway for its oil in order to hope to be self-sufficient in essential resources. And any communist Europe without Germany would be pretty weak with a strong counter-revolutionary neighbor next door.

So, until the political atmosphere in Germany changes and we stop hearing all this talk about how the "lazy Southern Europeans deserve to reap what they sow," I'm not very optimistic about anything positive coming out of this.

Not sure why you would limit your scope to (Western-)Europe. I'm not Greek, but let me pose an extension to your analysis - no more than a hypothesis.

Greece is not only European; and certainly not Western European. It's recent history is rife with dictators and monarchs, and shifts between international capitalism and national socialism. The reason Greece has regularly attracted the attention of larger forces (Britain, Italy, USA most recently), is its hyper-strategic location. One way to exploit that is - as is done for the last few decades - by fomenting military instability in the region. Specifically, the military arms race with Turkey presses heavily on the nation's budget. I do not see this as necessary. If the price of strengthening peace is losing control over some uninhabited islands, I'm not sure the Greek people would have much reason to be sad. Turkey seems a likely partner for Greece. But there are others.

Balkan countries to the north have supported the KKE in the past, and may do so again, in return for (better) access to the Mediterranean. But perhaps even more promising would be an African alliance. I'm not sure what is going to be the outcome of their revolutions, but if they choose to be sovereign, they may find a friend in Euro-exiled Greece.

Then there's Russia. No longer a communist country, but still faring a relatively independent course under dictator Putin. Though I would be extremely careful: An alliance with them might bring back cold war type tensions, in which Greece then becomes a vehicle - which doesn't help.

I've now covered almost all nearby neighbours. There are some potential partners further away - Cuba, Bolivia, Argentina, Brazil, that club perhaps. If Libya under Ghadaffi could partner with them (in those freakish dictator-socialist collaborations), then so can Greece.

There is, however, one more coast on the Mediterranean. I'm obviously leaving out Israel (and Gaza, which has only poverty and sadness to spare). But Greece is geographically close to that sweet Middle Eastern oil. And the fact that European and American forces are trying to reroute the oil pipes to avoid Russia, places Greece directly on the path of big oil pipes, which makes it even easier to get the oil. Perhaps Syria (pending whatever the fuck is going on there) and Lebanon will open up a path to the East for Greece. A partnership such as that, however, may open up a big, dirty crate of Islamophobia in Europe, and perhaps in Greece as well, escalating racist tensions towards a new (cold) war that is not about class.

So far, I've only talked about economic partners. With regards to the possibility of extending the revolution, I think the countries I discussed above are also much more likely to join or buckle than the ones you mentioned. "There are plenty other fishes in the sea".

[Luís Henrique]

shifts between international capitalism and national socialism.

AAArrrgh.

This. Is. Seriously. Misphrased.

Luís Henrique

[Tabarnack]

Greek crisis talks fail to yield cabinet deal
Radical left leader Alexis Tsipras says he will not join or support a pro-bailout coalition government.
13 May 2012 13:16

Greek radical left leader Alexis Tsipras says he will not join or support a pro-bailout coalition government, saying he cannot agree to what he terms a mistake. His continued refusal makes new elections in the crisis-struck country more likely.
Tsipras made the comments on Sunday after attending a meeting convened by President Karolos Papoulias with the head of the conservative New Democracy and socialist PASOK parties. Papoulias is making a last-ditch effort to broker an agreement and break the deadlock created by the elections, which left no party with enough parliamentary seats to form a government.


If no deal is reached, Greece must hold new elections next month, prolonging the political uncertainty and endangering the country's euro membership.
Papoulias, whose ceremonial role normally keeps him above the political fray, was to meet smaller parties elected to parliament later in the day.
European Union leaders have warned that without a government that backs the rescue plan, Greece will stop receiving payments and could find itself pushed out of the eurozone.
Sunday's meeting broke up after less than two hours of talks, and leaders said the discussions had hit a snag, though they expressed the hope that difficulties could be overcome.


Socialist leader Evangelos Venizelos said he felt "limited optimism" after the talks.
"Even now, despite the impasse at the meeting we had with the president, I hold on to some limited optimism that a government can be formed," he said.
He told party cadres that the talks came to a "dead end," indicating that hopes now fall on the co-operation of a smaller pro-European leftist party.


Syriza, which made massive gains to come second in last Sunday's election, campaigned on an anti-bailout platform and insists any new government must cancel the austerity measures Greece has had to commit to in exchange for international bailouts.


'Partners in crime'

After the talks, Syriza's leader Alexis Tsipras said the group refused to join a national unity government that includes parties supporting the bailout.
"They're not seeking an accord with Syriza ... they're asking us to be their partners in crime and we will not be their accomplices,"he said.


Tsipras argues that the bailout terms are so onerous that they are giving the country's battered economy no chance of recovery.
But both PASOK's Venizelos and New Democracy's Antonis Samarashave, whose parties negotiated the deals, have slammed Tsipras' position as irresponsible.
They say his policies would lead to disaster and force Greece out of the EU's joint currency, something that none of the political leaders say they want.


The political impasse must be overcome by Thursday, when parliament convenes, or new elections will have to be called in June.
A new poll published hours before the meetings on Sunday showed Greeks were desperate for a coalition government that will keep the country in the euro.
An overriding 72 per cent said parties should co-operate "at all costs" in the Kappa Research poll published in To Vima weekly.


In response to a separate question, 78.1 per cent said the new government should do "whatever it takes" to keep Greece in the euro.
Another group, the more moderate Democratic Left, could have provided the pro-bailout parties with enough votes to form a cabinet but has refused to do so unless Syriza joins too.


Exit not 'fatal'

European leaders say keeping the euro is impossible for Athens unless it sticks to the pledges to clean up its finances
that it made in the bailout.
Officials in Brussels who once refused to discuss any country leaving the euro now talk about a Greek exit as a real, if painful, possibility.
A prospect once seen as devastating for the continent's financial system is viewed as more manageable since banks wrote off much of their Greek debt this year.


"Technically, it can be managed," Irish central bank chief and European Central Bank policymaker Patrick Honohan said on Saturday, saying Greek exit would be a knock on confidence in the eurozone as a whole but would not necessarily be "fatal".


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/05/201251384644847720.html

[Vninect]

AAArrrgh.

This. Is. Seriously. Misphrased.

Luís Henrique
Take it easy, pal. It is tricky to phrase that, with history and polemic claiming different meanings. And I'm not used to the local polemic, here.

What I mean is they are both corporatist doctrines: one introducing more "free trade" and international plutocratic dependency; the other strongly nationalistic and xenophobic, with a military leadership (which is not a strictly legitimate branch of socialism, indeed).

I liked this particular phrasing for its ironic use of the chiasmus.

Does that calm you down?

[Luís Henrique]

Take it easy, pal. It is tricky to phrase that, with history and polemic claiming different meanings. And I'm not used to the local polemic, here.

What I mean is they are both corporatist doctrines: one introducing more "free trade" and international plutocratic dependency; the other strongly nationalistic and xenophobic, with a military leadership (which is not a strictly legitimate branch of socialism, indeed).

I liked this particular phrasing for its ironic use of the chiasmus.

Does that calm you down?

Capitalism is always both national and international. And your reference to "national socialism" is awful, for the dictatorial very pro-capitalist regimes in Greece not only had nothing to do with socialism, but were also quite unrelated to "National Socialism" as in Nazism. But at least you were not calling PASOK "national socialist", which was what you looked to be doing.

Seriously, giving any socialist, strict or not, legitimacy to fascism is not a good idea. And ignoring that the "strongly nationalistic and xenophobic" Greek dictatorships were not xenophobic nor nationalist at all when it came to the issue of foreign capital access to Greece's resources is a quite a misinterpretation, even if the "socialist" mislabel is removed.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

After the talks, Syriza's leader Alexis Tsipras said the group refused to join a national unity government that includes parties supporting the bailout.

"They're not seeking an accord with Syriza ... they're asking us to be their partners in crime and we will not be their accomplices," he said.

If he is about to switch horses, he seems to be awaiting for a different horse...

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

When a revolution is going to happen is somtheing the people will descide, not KKE. When you ll have strong movements in the streets, when you ll have occupations, when you ll have massive waves of strikes, thats when a revolution will happen. But revolutions happen by classes, not parties.

And please, please, dont accuse KKE that the revolution will happen through elections. One of the reasons SYRIZA took so many votes was that we went to the people with the line "nothing is gonna change though elections and we are not taking part in a bourgeois goverment". And we gonna lose more to keep this line. Please dont attack us as lovers of the ballot just to feed any antiKKE stereotypes. If we wanted, we could be goverment as we speak.

There are two things wrong with this.

One...the more important of the two...the role of a communist party is to agitate towards revolution. So far the KKE has not done this and has merely taken a rethorical role and organising their own events. This seperates them from the "people".

Two is that the KKE has demonstrated that it will not allow demonstrations to turn radical and have shown to actively prevent this from happening seemingly unwilling to give up some ideology of being a vanguard and notion that a demonstration is theirs to own.

Both of these are the main arguments against the KKE. I do not care they do not wat to participate in government. I care that they are not working towards revolution and have no coherent strategy other than rethorics.

[Luís Henrique]

Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats have just suffered another electoral defeat, this time in North Rhine-Westphalia. It is possible that Merkel's position, after all, is quite weak, and that she and her party do not have the effective means to enforce self-destruction into Greece.

The main theme of the electoral campaign in North Rhine-Westphalia? Austerity, of course. The state social-democrat government put up a budget deemed "irresponsible" by the Christian Democrats, who brought it down, forcing new elections... and the voters backed the social-democrat "irresponsibility" against Merkel's "austerity".

The real question seems to be not whether it is possible to repeal "austerity" policies, but whether the European economies can function once such policies are repealed. What happens if they are repealed? Inflation? Hyperinflation? A short-term boom? A more persistent anti-cyclic effect? Further losses in competitivity against Eastern Asia?

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats have just suffered another electoral defeat, this time in North Rhine-Westphalia. It is possible that Merkel's position, after all, is quite weak, and that she and her party do not have the effective means to enforce self-destruction into Greece.

The main theme of the electoral campaign in North Rhine-Westphalia? Austerity, of course. The state social-democrat government put up a budget deemed "irresponsible" by the Christian Democrats, who brought it down, forcing new elections... and the voters backed the social-democrat "irresponsibility" against Merkel's "austerity".

The real question seems to be not whether it is possible to repeal "austerity" policies, but whether the European economies can function once such policies are repealed. What happens if they are repealed? Inflation? Hyperinflation? A short-term boom? A more persistent anti-cyclic effect? Further losses in competitivity against Eastern Asia?

Luís Henrique

Shouldn't this post of yours be in the North Rhine-Westphalia thread? Die Linke's loss is a bigger concern than Merkel's expected defeat. :confused:

[Delenda Carthago]

There are two things wrong with this.

One...the more important of the two...the role of a communist party is to agitate towards revolution. So far the KKE has not done this and has merely taken a rethorical role and organising their own events. This seperates them from the "people".
May 15. PAME organises ANOTHER strike. Everyone else will be on their homes. And that includes everyone. SYRIZA, ANTARSYA, anarchists. They can be on every goverment, every riot they want, whatever. When it comes to class struggle, PAME is the name, strikes is the game.




Two is that the KKE has demonstrated that it will not allow demonstrations to turn radical and have shown to actively prevent this from happening seemingly unwilling to give up some ideology of being a vanguard and notion that a demonstration is theirs to own.

ANARKY(A)


Both of these are the main arguments against the KKE. I do not care they do not wat to participate in government. I care that they are not working towards revolution and have no coherent strategy other than rethorics.
Here you go...
http://inter.kke.gr/News/2010news/2009-09-16-political-resolution

[PhoenixAsh]

May 15. PAME organises ANOTHER strike. Everyone else will be on their homes. And that includes everyone. SYRIZA, ANTARSYA, anarchists. They can be on every goverment, every riot they want, whatever. When it comes to class struggle, PAME is the name, strikes is the game.

ANARKY(A)

Here you go...
http://inter.kke.gr/News/2010news/2009-09-16-political-resolution

yeah I have read that...

jadajadajada.....

You are missing the very big point. The point that on more than one occasion KKE actvely opposed the escalation of protests into revoluionary situations and has so far failed utterly to call for a revolution and active class struggle.

Instead KKE uses their ideologically fragmentised PAME umbrella organisation (remember...not communist organisation) to stage passive protests on specific days....not calling ONCE for indefinate strikes and using their armed militia to prevent radicalisation..

the fact that everybody else stays at home is probably because when they do show up they get attacked by PAME/KKE thugs and handed over to the cops. Not a chance in hell any revolutionary worth his or her salt would show up at a KKE rally. Now coul dyou point me to where the KKE and PAME have had party organised mass attacks on the cops an the state?? Or re they once again waving their little red flags and then go home?

[Tabarnack]

The leader of far-left party Syriza will not attend coalition talks on Monday, reports say, plunging Greece into further political disarray.

The move by Alexis Tsipras takes the country a step closer to elections - which polls now suggest the anti-bailout party could win.
President Karolos Papoulias had invited four parties, including Syriza, to further talks.
But Mr Tsipras on Sunday ruled out any deal with pro-bailout parties.
Both the centre-right New Democracy and the socialist Pasok have so far been unable to form a new coalition.
They both agreed to swingeing cuts in return for the last EU/IMF bailout, but suffered at last week's polls.
Syriza, which came second, insists any new government must cancel austerity measures agreed in return for EU-IMF loans worth 130bn euros ($170bn; £105bn).

Fruitless

"Alexis Tsipras will not attend the meeting tomorrow," Reuters news agency quoted Syriza official Nikos Pappas as saying.
That leaves New Democracy and Pasok due to attend the talks at the presidential mansion along with Democratic Left, a more moderate leftist party.
In theory, Democratic Left - which came seventh in the election, winning 19 seats - could provide those two parties with the support needed to form a coalition, but its leader, Fotis Kouvelis, has repeatedly said he would not do so without Syriza.

It became clear that Mr Papoulias's consultations with party leaders on Sunday were likely to be fruitless when Mr Tsipras refused to join a proposed national unity coalition with New Democracy and Pasok, saying: "They're not seeking an accord with Syriza... they're asking us to be their partners in crime and we will not be their accomplices."
A row erupted after Mr Tsipras accused Democratic Left of agreeing to form a coalition with New Democracy and Pasok - an accusation that Democratic Left rejected as a "slander and a lie" on its website.

Emerging after the talks, Mr Kouvelis said the president had told him there was "no possibility of the formation of a unity government, and he referred to the refusal by Syriza to participate in such an government, or to even show tolerance towards one".
The leader of New Democracy, Antonis Samaras, said Syriza had refused to join or back a coalition government, even if it pledged to "renegotiate" the loan agreement.
The BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens says most Greeks appear to be in favour of remaining in the euro, but there are questions as to what sacrifices they are willing to make to achieve that goal. European leaders say rejecting the terms of the bailout is incompatible with remaining in the euro - something polls suggest a large majority of Greeks want to do.

'Russian roulette'

If, as expected, the talks fail to produce a governing coalition, a new election will be scheduled for next month.
The uncertainty has alarmed Greece's international creditors, who insist the country must keep to the terms of the bailout deal if it is to continue receiving funds and avoid bankruptcy.

Correspondents say the anti-bailout vote that was shared among several small parties in the first election now seems to be consolidating around Syriza.
Several opinion polls have put Syriza in first place in any future poll. With a bonus of 50 extra parliamentary seats that winning would bring, an anti-bailout coalition led by Syriza is looking more likely.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18054612

[A Marxist Historian]

Well with my limited understanding of Greece, it seems that what's happening is a really deep political crisis unfolding and the Left (all of it) is quite clearly demonstrating that it is unprepared to deal with the crisis. I hope this changes as we all do, but it's quite concerning because situations like this give an opportunity for the forces of reaction to really move (we can of course see signs of this with Golden Dawn's ascendance in the elections).

Crises like this present an opportunity for the Left, but if it isn't up for the task, then they also present a real danger to the workers of Greece.

I'm also not sure how a unity government would really work out in this case considering the fundamental reason that the main parties were rejected was over the issue of the bailout. They would clearly head such a unity government but with much less confidence of the electorate which in turn has the potential of deepening the political crisis.

The tl;dr version: I have no idea what will happen now

What can "the left" do in Greece now? Well, be born, that's what.

What do Greeks want? They overwhelmingly reject the banker-EU imposed austerity, but want to remain in Europe. So Syriza, which promises to accomplish this feat, is the rising party.

But you can't reject austerity and remain in the EU, that is a Grand Illusion. A pipe dream.

But, OTOH, if Greece leaves the EU, that would also be an economic disaster at this point. The KKE's dream of an independent Greece and an independent drachma with a functioning economy and no austerity is equally illusory. Argentina managed to stumble along after repudiating its debts, but Argentina is a much bigger and more self-sufficient country than tiny Greece.

So what is the solution? European economic unity on a socialist basis. A Socialist United States of Europe. Nothing less can solve the situation. However, to the average Greek worker, that no doubt would seem like a pipe dream too.

So, what's needed is constructing a truly revolutionary party with a world-revolutionary program, on the basis of the classic and time-tested ideas of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky. Difficult to do overnight at this point.

Greece's situaiton is almost as revolutionary as Russia in 1917, but there simply is nothing even resembling a Bolshevik party setting its sights Lenin-style on world revolution in Greece, and least of all the KKE.

Meanwhile, united front actions to crush the Golden Dawn fascists and drive them back into their holes is probably the best way to buy the needed time for creating a revolutionary party that Greek workers can take seriously as their vanguard. At this point, the disorganized, disunited and scattered left has more than enough strength to at least accomplish this elementary task -- if it wants to.

-M.H.-

[Tabarnack]

But you can't reject austerity and remain in the EU, that is a Grand Illusion. A pipe dream.-M.H.-

Not really, they can use the european central bank to pump money into the system, including zero or very low interest loans to governments that need it, it's a political decision that is all. The problem is that the political will is not there...yet, but that can change.

[Die Neue Zeit]

There should be a campaign for a financial services monopoly by the ECB, really.

[Luís Henrique]

But you can't reject austerity and remain in the EU, that is a Grand Illusion. A pipe dream.

Well, of course you can, provided that the EU makes a U-turn in its policies. Which is increasingly likely to happen, though probably not soon enough to avoid a Greek disaster. What is quite probably true, though, is that such a move, instead of solving Greece's problem, will instead help spread it quicklier to the whole continent. Which is the fear of the German Christian Democrats and their allies, who at this moment still have the upper hand in European economic policies.

We will see, of course; but the scenario points to an incoming colossal disaster in European economy, whether the BCE changes its politics or not.


The KKE's dream of an independent Greece and an independent drachma with a functioning economy and no austerity is equally illusory. Argentina managed to stumble along after repudiating its debts, but Argentina is a much bigger and more self-sufficient country than tiny Greece.

That's also quite probable; it would depend however of how bad things get in Greece before it walks/is kicked out of the Euro. An extremely depressed economy can probably manage to get some level of growth, even on a tiny basis like Greece. Of course Argentina is bigger - and had another important advantage, in that its neighbours weren't its main creditors, and could display some patience and even solidarity towards the troubled country. But capital is adventurous; if Greece manages to grow somehow after breaking with the EU, it will probably attract some foreign investment, though quite certainly it won't be German capital.

Where the KKE is most wrong is in believing that its dream of an independent bourgeois Greece can be attained without playing the Euro card to the bitter end, ie, by actually having the EU reject Greece's demands of fair treatment. In politics, sanity is often the worst kind of madness, but the crazy nature of sanity has to be demonstrated in practice.


So what is the solution? European economic unity on a socialist basis. A Socialist United States of Europe. Nothing less can solve the situation. However, to the average Greek worker, that no doubt would seem like a pipe dream too.

That is true, on both counts; it is only going to look otherwise if and when other countries of Europe live their own crises up to Greek levels; atm, though Italian debt crisis is probably not as bad as Portugal's or Ireland's, it is in Italy that the political consequences of the economic crisis are showing faster; in the local elections of May 6th, that went unnoticed in the shade of Greece's royal screwup, Berlusconi's party got trounced, as did the Lega Nord, and while the PD did not, it wasn't either able to profit from its opponents fiasco; the Italian party system seems to be in crisis again.

Evidently if a country the size of Italy - or even Spain - goes "greek", the EU is doomed, and a socialist Europe becomes much more plausible. But this will have to happen; people won't believe it until they have it under their eyes. It takes time and pain, not proclamations, to make the obvious seem crazy and the crazy seem obvious.

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

Well, of course you can, provided that the EU makes a U-turn in its policies. Which is increasingly likely to happen, though probably not soon enough to avoid a Greek disaster. What is quite probably true, though, is that such a move, instead of solving Greece's problem, will instead help spread it quicklier to the whole continent. Which is the fear of the German Christian Democrats and their allies, who at this moment still have the upper hand in European economic policies.

We will see, of course; but the scenario points to an incoming colossal disaster in European economy, whether the BCE changes its politics or not.

If there is a U-turn, then a stronger case needs to be made for greater continental integration. Even Die Linke's proposal of Eurobonds doesn't go far enough.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

There should be a campaign for a financial services monopoly by the ECB, really.

By who?

What worker (and of what country?) in their right mind, in the face of the worst slump in living standards, employment and growth in living memory, would 'campaign' in any way for the centralisation of financial services, something alien to most people, in the hands of a supra-national bank?

Or do you mean the working class do not matter and should be bypassed by your beloved bureaucrats, who should 'campaign' via pen and paper for a bigger central bank for your Keynesian 'growth' agenda?

Oh wait, it's May isn't it. Do you want me to get back to work?;):rolleyes:

[Die Neue Zeit]

By who?

What worker (and of what country?) in their right mind, in the face of the worst slump in living standards, employment and growth in living memory, would 'campaign' in any way for the centralisation of financial services, something alien to most people, in the hands of a supra-national bank?

Thoroughly anti-nationalist worker-class leftists:

"Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly." (Communist Manifesto)

"Centralization of money and credit in the hands of the state through a national bank with state capital, and the suppression of all private banks and bankers." (Principles of Communism)

"A state bank, whose paper issues are legal tender, shall replace all private banks." (Demands of the Communist Party in Germany)

I'm just applying this to a supra-national level.

[NoPasaran1936]

Is 'growth' what people want? That's just so the rich get richer. I think many would take a 'slump' in living standards, it depends on how big. I think people would be willing to give up things like nicer cars, tvs and computers so that they can eat, drink and have a house over them and their family's head. A slump be a temporary slump too, worker control industry would most likely grow faster than a management controlled industry.

[Threetune]

There should be a campaign for a financial services monopoly by the ECB, really.

Fine, but as you know, this would all only be possible as a policy of much needed workers state dictatorship which is being completely rejected by all ‘socialists’ including reformists ‘lefts’, Euro communists, Stalinists, Trotskyists, Maoists, Anarchists and right nationalists.

Only Leninism is agitating against all this middle class anti-communism in favour of the widest debate on the necessity of the dictatorship of the proletariat as the only first step to ‘solving’ the otherwise insurmountable problem of capitalist crisis dictatorship.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Thoroughly anti-nationalist worker-class leftists:

"Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly." (Communist Manifesto)

"Centralization of money and credit in the hands of the state through a national bank with state capital, and the suppression of all private banks and bankers." (Principles of Communism)

"A state bank, whose paper issues are legal tender, shall replace all private banks." (Demands of the Communist Party in Germany)

I'm just applying this to a supra-national level.

anti-nationalist worker-class lefts? Can you translate this into readable English please? :lol:

You are talking about the principles of a Socialist society. Fine. But we are still living in a Capitalist society. So your demand really does not do anything to look beyond Capitalism. It is a wholly reformist tactic. On its own it will achieve nothing. I suggest you put this tactic of a supra-national bank into a larger manifesto of ideas, otherwise on its own it really is meaningless and futile.

[A Marxist Historian]

Not really, they can use the european central bank to pump money into the system, including zero or very low interest loans to governments that need it, it's a political decision that is all. The problem is that the political will is not there...yet, but that can change.

Greece does not control the central bank, Germany does. Economically speaking, the EU is turning into a Fourth Reich, "democratic" this time.

Even if Germany went socialist, the EU could not possibly be a vehicle for a Socialist United States of Europe, as the fundamental clause of the EU constitution is that it is a "free market" not a socialist bloc. Socialist measures go against the EU constitution and treaties.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Well, of course you can, provided that the EU makes a U-turn in its policies. Which is increasingly likely to happen, though probably not soon enough to avoid a Greek disaster. What is quite probably true, though, is that such a move, instead of solving Greece's problem, will instead help spread it quicklier to the whole continent. Which is the fear of the German Christian Democrats and their allies, who at this moment still have the upper hand in European economic policies.

We will see, of course; but the scenario points to an incoming colossal disaster in European economy, whether the BCE changes its politics or not.



That's also quite probable; it would depend however of how bad things get in Greece before it walks/is kicked out of the Euro. An extremely depressed economy can probably manage to get some level of growth, even on a tiny basis like Greece. Of course Argentina is bigger - and had another important advantage, in that its neighbours weren't its main creditors, and could display some patience and even solidarity towards the troubled country. But capital is adventurous; if Greece manages to grow somehow after breaking with the EU, it will probably attract some foreign investment, though quite certainly it won't be German capital.

Where the KKE is most wrong is in believing that its dream of an independent bourgeois Greece can be attained without playing the Euro card to the bitter end, ie, by actually having the EU reject Greece's demands of fair treatment. In politics, sanity is often the worst kind of madness, but the crazy nature of sanity has to be demonstrated in practice.



That is true, on both counts; it is only going to look otherwise if and when other countries of Europe live their own crises up to Greek levels; atm, though Italian debt crisis is probably not as bad as Portugal's or Ireland's, it is in Italy that the political consequences of the economic crisis are showing faster; in the local elections of May 6th, that went unnoticed in the shade of Greece's royal screwup, Berlusconi's party got trounced, as did the Lega Nord, and while the PD did not, it wasn't either able to profit from its opponents fiasco; the Italian party system seems to be in crisis again.

Evidently if a country the size of Italy - or even Spain - goes "greek", the EU is doomed, and a socialist Europe becomes much more plausible. But this will have to happen; people won't believe it until they have it under their eyes. It takes time and pain, not proclamations, to make the obvious seem crazy and the crazy seem obvious.

Luís Henrique

Perhaps social democratic regimes could slow down the austerity a bit -- by going into debt again, thereby just creating a bigger crisis for the future. The fact is that much of the economic growth of Europe over the last couple decades under the EU mantle was fictitious and based on debt, and the banks are calling in the markers. A serious decline in working class living standards and European civilzation in general is economically inevitable if capitalism continues.

No doubt a recovery would be possible after some years of extreme pain, that is the nature of the capitalist boom and bust cycle. But living standards will never return to what they were 5-10 years ago, the arrow of development points down.

The only way to avoid serious austerity would be, at minimum, the expropriation of the banks without much if any compensation. Not doable under capitalism, and certainly not doable under EU rules.

Your last point is absolutely correct, it will take time and pain for the masses to realize this, won't happen overnight.

But won't happen at all without a revolutionary party explaining this to the working class while it is happening. Playing the role of the vanguard. Otherwise you'll just get riots, chaos, demoralization, and people increasingly listening to the answers to the crisis provided by the likes of the Golden Dawn.

-M.H.-

[PhoenixAsh]

New elections are now a certainty. The last attempt to form a so called bussiness government (a government formed solely from non political persons...so this means people from corporations, civil servants, representatives of NGO's not represented in parlliament) has failed.


Everybody blames everybody else for this.


PASOK blamed SYRIZA
DEMOCRATIC LEFT blamed "other parties"
The independent Greeks blamed ND
ND blamed SYRIZA and the independents

The president calls the failed negotiations a tragedy for Greece and states parties have put their own interest before national interests.

Meanwhile in Brussel the EU is bussy denying that Greece will leave the Euro and EU and that they will do everything to prevent this from happening.

The bailout packages will last till june. Then Greece will need further assistance.
If Greece does not meet their "obligations" then they will not get this new assistance.

The Greek situation has deepened the Eurozone crisis. The Euro lost heavilly on the dollar.

This is happening amidst an already declining economic growth level.

[Threetune]

Perhaps social democratic regimes could slow down the austerity a bit -- by going into debt again, thereby just creating a bigger crisis for the future. The fact is that much of the economic growth of Europe over the last couple decades under the EU mantle was fictitious and based on debt, and the banks are calling in the markers. A serious decline in working class living standards and European civilzation in general is economically inevitable if capitalism continues.

No doubt a recovery would be possible after some years of extreme pain, that is the nature of the capitalist boom and bust cycle. But living standards will never return to what they were 5-10 years ago, the arrow of development points down.

The only way to avoid serious austerity would be, at minimum, the expropriation of the banks without much if any compensation. Not doable under capitalism, and certainly not doable under EU rules.

Your last point is absolutely correct, it will take time and pain for the masses to realize this, won't happen overnight.

But won't happen at all without a revolutionary party explaining this to the working class while it is happening. Playing the role of the vanguard. Otherwise you'll just get riots, chaos, demoralization, and people increasingly listening to the answers to the crisis provided by the likes of the Golden Dawn.

-M.H.-


What is this supposed to mean? How will this “recovery” be possible?

[Luís Henrique]

What is this supposed to mean? How will this “recovery” be possible?

That's one of the functions of capitalist crises: to destroy value so that value can be created anew.

Luís Henrique

[A Marxist Historian]

What is this supposed to mean? How will this “recovery” be possible?

Capitalism is in a boom and bust cycle. If you have a depression long enough, with enough victimization of the general population, lowering of wages, overflowing inventories depleted, sooneer or later it becomes possible again for capitalists to make money by investing in producing more stuff and selling it. This is basic Marxist economics.

But the longterm trend is downhill for the human race in this era of imperialist monopoly capitalism, despite the ups and downs of the business cycle.

You had a boom after WWII because most of Europe and Japan and China had been simply destroyed, creating a demand to rebuild, which capitalists made a lot of money off of. Similarly, if this world recession lasts long enough, sure there'll be an economic recovery.

For a while.

-M.H.-

[Threetune]

Capitalism is in a boom and bust cycle. If you have a depression long enough, with enough victimization of the general population, lowering of wages, overflowing inventories depleted, sooneer or later it becomes possible again for capitalists to make money by investing in producing more stuff and selling it. This is basic Marxist economics.

But the longterm trend is downhill for the human race in this era of imperialist monopoly capitalism, despite the ups and downs of the business cycle.

You had a boom after WWII because most of Europe and Japan and China had been simply destroyed, creating a demand to rebuild, which capitalists made a lot of money off of. Similarly, if this world recession lasts long enough, sure there'll be an economic recovery.

For a while.

-M.H.-

Are you not even blushing a bit at calling the growing WWIII conditions of the planet a “recovery”? When most of the capitalist commentators, left and right, talk of recovery they are referring to an expansion of production and trade not its annihilation. Pat yourself on the head for your formally correct, academically undeniable logic and then please tell the boys and girls what this “recovery” is really going to entail in some detail and see if the word “recovery” doesn’t sound a bit wide of the mark.

[Vninect]

Are you not even blushing a bit at calling the growing WWIII conditions of the planet a “recovery”? When most of the capitalist commentators, left and right, talk of recovery they are referring to an expansion of production and trade not its annihilation. Pat yourself on the head for your formally correct, academically undeniable logic and then please tell the boys and girls what this “recovery” is really going to entail in some detail and see if the word “recovery” doesn’t sound a bit wide of the mark.
You remind me of the timecube guy. :lol:

[Thirsty Crow]

You had a boom after WWII because most of Europe and Japan and China had been simply destroyed, creating a demand to rebuild, which capitalists made a lot of money off of. Similarly, if this world recession lasts long enough, sure there'll be an economic recovery.

For a while.

-M.H.-
I don't think it's that simple, that recession simply has to last long enough since the basic requisite of a renewed cycle of accumulation, implying recovered profitability, is devaluation, either of capital value or outright physical destruction. I don't think that the global ruling class is well equipped to usher in policies conducive to that goal since they've been doing quite the oppsite from the crisis of the 70s (which is also evident in the immediate aftermath of the financial crash when bailouts were orchestrated).

[Luís Henrique]

Are you not even blushing a bit at calling the growing WWIII conditions of the planet a “recovery”? When most of the capitalist commentators, left and right, talk of recovery they are referring to an expansion of production and trade not its annihilation. Pat yourself on the head for your formally correct, academically undeniable logic and then please tell the boys and girls what this “recovery” is really going to entail in some detail and see if the word “recovery” doesn’t sound a bit wide of the mark.

That's what a capitalist recovery takes, yes: general and systematic destruction to make place for rebuilding. We shouldn't be selling illusions about the possibility of a capitalist recovery without that.

When "capitalist commentators" "talk of recovery" they are talking about something that is impossible in the terms they place it. Either that, or they are just exactly talking about... annihilation, and trying to delude us. But perhaps you want to believe "capitalist commentators"?

Luís Henrique

[Threetune]

That's what a capitalist recovery takes, yes: general and systematic destruction to make place for rebuilding. We shouldn't be selling illusions about the possibility of a capitalist recovery without that.

When "capitalist commentators" "talk of recovery" they are talking about something that is impossible in the terms they place it. Either that, or they are just exactly talking about... annihilation, and trying to delude us. But perhaps you want to believe "capitalist commentators"?

Luís Henrique

Another blowhard. The “recovery” you talk of could only possibly occur after this next round of “general and systematic destruction” if the capitalists are victorious and defeat the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat arising out of the chaos again. Leninism isn’t planning on that, as you appear to be.

[Luís Henrique]

Another blowhard. The “recovery” you talk of could only possibly occur after this next round of “general and systematic destruction” if the capitalists are victorious and defeat the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat arising out of the chaos again. Leninism isn’t planning on that, as you appear to be.

Simply put, of course a capitalist recovery pressuposes the victory of capitalists and the defeat of socialists. If socialists win, there will be no capitalist recovery.

Perhaps you want a socialist revolution so that we can have a capitalist recovery?

Luís Henrique

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/putin-faces-chaos-if-greek-euro-exit-triggers-new-recession-1-.html

[Threetune]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/putin-faces-chaos-if-greek-euro-exit-triggers-new-recession-1-.html

Good post.
And still the ‘lefts’ of every flavour refuse to start agitating for the widest debate on the urgency of taking the power from the capitalists by means of a revolutionary workers dictatorship in every village and continent. This is unavoidable unless, that is, your class position gives you a nose bleed or the vapours every time a worker mentions the only possible civilised solution to the warmongering capitalist crisis, that is, the dictatorship of the working class internationally.

All the ‘lefts’ and especially their cringing ‘leaders’ need to be challenged and exposed as traitorous reformists in front of the working class. The sooner this work gets up to speed the better.

[Luís Henrique]

All the ‘lefts’ and especially their cringing ‘leaders’ need to be challenged and exposed as traitorous reformists in front of the working class.

The only problem with that is that in the present situation the working class would probably think you are denouncing "all the 'lefts'" for betraying the nation State, or God, or "democracy", or the free markets, with their crazy ultra-radical and unrealistic reforms.

Seriously, from what planet you said you are?

Luís Henrique

[Threetune]

The only problem with that is that in the present situation the working class would probably think you are denouncing "all the 'lefts'" for betraying the nation State, or God, or "democracy", or the free markets, with their crazy ultra-radical and unrealistic reforms.

Seriously, from what planet you said you are?

Luís Henrique


Let’s start listing the excuses put-up by the ‘lefts’ for not agitating about taking power like revolutionary communists should always be doing.
First is ‘Marxist Historian’ who, in fairness, only intimated that there would be a ‘recovery’ in the way that the gobshites of the British SWP are saying these days.

Next is ‘Luis Henrique’ who now heads the pack on here with the classic cringing trixy old chestnut of blaming the working class for not knowing enough about revolution. But in the same breath taking the piss out of anyone who ‘merely’ suggests talking about revolution in front of workers. Ha!

[Deicide]

So... what do I need to know about Alexis Tsipras and his party?

[Panda Tse Tung]

Let’s start listing the excuses put-up by the ‘lefts’ for not agitating about taking power like revolutionary communists should always be doing.
First is ‘Marxist Historian’ who, in fairness, only intimated that there would be a ‘recovery’ in the way that the gobshites of the British SWP are saying these days.

Next is ‘Luis Henrique’ who now heads the pack on here with the classic cringing trixy old chestnut of blaming the working class for not knowing enough about revolution. But in the same breath taking the piss out of anyone who ‘merely’ suggests talking about revolution in front of workers. Ha!

How about the working class is not ready for revolution, if they we're they would have voted for the KKE in stead of Syriza first off. And a lot of right-wing greeks simply shifted to right-wing anti-austerity parties. The total support of 'the left' (both KKE and Syriza) is well under 50%, and with well i mean it's incredibly far under 50%. People still think there's a way out, and i cant blame them.
Revolution isn't just some romantic dream, or something you can scream to anyone (edit: actually, it is but it makes you look stupid). It's a violent, bloody act which will destroy the lives of many (and not just by getting killed) in order to build a better future. It's a massive disruption from the peace and quiet most working class people desire. You know, peace of mind, no financial worries, stuff like that. It's hardly difficult to imagine that calling for revolution at this time is adventurism and actually quite stupid/ignorant. In any case, have fun screaming revolution from your ivory tower, while the KKE will actually bother building working class support.

[Luís Henrique]

Let’s start listing the excuses put-up by the ‘lefts’ for not agitating about taking power like revolutionary communists should always be doing.
Revolutionary communists should always be agitating about taking power? That is news; Lenin certainly never wrote or said anything to the effect. Neither did Trotsky, nor Stalin, nor Rosa Luxemburg, nor Mao, nor Castro.

Perhaps it is a new and "superior" development of Marxist theory; Marxism-threetunism. It seems based in a complete negation of whatever knowledge the socialist working class movement has achieved to the moment. Apparently, we shouldn't be performing any analysis on whether the situation is favourable or not for a take-over of power. Instead, we should be telling the workers that they should take power immediately, whether the proper conditions obtain or not.

One conclusion of this line of reasoning, of course, is that Lenin was a class traitor: in July 1917, instead of urging the working class to take power immediately, he pondered that it was not the appropriate moment, and effectively hold back the Bolsheviks from advancing such position. Now we know that he was merely putting up excuses, as 'lefts' always do!


First is ‘Marxist Historian’ who, in fairness, only intimated that there would be a ‘recovery’ in the way that the gobshites of the British SWP are saying these days.And he appropriately told us what the conditions for such a recovery are: widespread destruction of capital and value, to make room for the production of value and capital anew. Basic Marxism, which apparently revolutionary communists should ignore, in their efforts to have the working class crushed in precocious attempts at taking power where the conditions are not mature enough for it...


Next is ‘Luis Henrique’ who now heads the pack on here with the classic cringing trixy old chestnut of blaming the working class for not knowing enough about revolution. But in the same breath taking the piss out of anyone who ‘merely’ suggests talking about revolution in front of workers. Ha!The working class does not know enough about revolution, until it is taught about it - not by a sect of "communist revolutionaries" that talk about it whether it is possible in the short term or not - nay, that indeed agitate the take over of power, even in the absence of the most elementary conditions for it - but by the unfolding of the political situation, as it creates a situation which makes all turning back impossible.

But what are you doing here, deblaterating like a liberal with other liberals, instead of "agitating" "as a communist revolutionary should always do", an immediate and unconsidered take over of power? Perhaps waiting that such conditions are created, and taking the time to attempt to discredit other people because they are not doing what you are also not doing?

Luís Henrique

[Threetune]

Revolutionary communists should always be agitating about taking power? That is news; Lenin certainly never wrote or said anything to the effect. Neither did Trotsky, nor Stalin, nor Rosa Luxemburg, nor Mao, nor Castro.

Perhaps it is a new and "superior" development of Marxist theory; Marxism-threetunism. It seems based in a complete negation of whatever knowledge the socialist working class movement has achieved to the moment. Apparently, we shouldn't be performing any analysis on whether the situation is favourable or not for a take-over of power. Instead, we should be telling the workers that they should take power immediately, whether the proper conditions obtain or not.

One conclusion of this line of reasoning, of course, is that Lenin was a class traitor: in July 1917, instead of urging the working class to take power immediately, he pondered that it was not the appropriate moment, and effectively hold back the Bolsheviks from advancing such position. Now we know that he was merely putting up excuses, as 'lefts' always do!

And he appropriately told us what the conditions for such a recovery are: widespread destruction of capital and value, to make room for the production of value and capital anew. Basic Marxism, which apparently revolutionary communists should ignore, in their efforts to have the working class crushed in precocious attempts at taking power where the conditions are not mature enough for it...

The working class does not know enough about revolution, until it is taught about it - not by a sect of "communist revolutionaries" that talk about it whether it is possible in the short term or not - nay, that indeed agitate the take over of power, even in the absence of the most elementary conditions for it - but by the unfolding of the political situation, as it creates a situation which makes all turning back impossible.

But what are you doing here, deblaterating like a liberal with other liberals, instead of "agitating" "as a communist revolutionary should always do", an immediate and unconsidered take over of power? Perhaps waiting that such conditions are created, and taking the time to attempt to discredit other people because they are not doing what you are also not doing?

Luís Henrique

“Power to the Soviets.”
“It is inevitable that a situation like the present should show elements of instability now for one reason, now for another. And it is not exactly a clever policy of jib. Things are moving by fits and starts towards a point where power will be transferred to the Soviets, which is what our Party called for long ago.”V. I. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jul/03a.htm)Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jul/05a.htm) Pravda No. 99, July 18, 1917.


“… power will be transferred to the Soviets, OUR PARTY CALLED FOR LONG AGO” says Lenin in “July 1917” ! You lying anti- communist.

[Threetune]

More proof of Lenin calling for revolution before July 1917. As if it was needed? How stupid can one be to say that Lenin was against workers taking power because of some particular, this or that, tactical consideration. Laughable yes, but deliberately consciously misleading!

“A Deal With the Capitalists or Overthrow of the Capitalists?”

“HOW TO END THE WAR”

“Either we advocate and look forward to a deal with the capitalists—and that would amount to inspiring the people with faith in their worst enemies—or we place our faith solely in the workers’ revolution and concentrate all our efforts on overthrowing the capitalists. We must make our choice between these two ways of ending the war.” V.I. Lenin Pravda No. 65, June 7 (May 25), 1917

Edit: Read more Lenin !!!

[Luís Henrique]

“Power to the Soviets.”
“It is inevitable that a situation like the present should show elements of instability now for one reason, now for another. And it is not exactly a clever policy of jib. Things are moving by fits and starts towards a point where power will be transferred to the Soviets, which is what our Party called for long ago.”V. I. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jul/03a.htm)Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jul/05a.htm) Pravda No. 99, July 18, 1917.


“… power will be transferred to the Soviets, OUR PARTY CALLED FOR LONG AGO” says Lenin in “July 1917” ! You lying anti- communist.

So let's quote Lenin:


What, then, constitutes our change of tactics after the Kornilov revolt? We are changing the form of our struggle against Kerensky. Without in the least relaxing our hostility towards him, without taking back a single word said against him, without renouncing the task of overthrowing him, we say that we must take into account the present situation. We shall not overthrow Kerensky right now. We shall approach the task of fighting against him in a different way, namely, we shall point out to the people (who are fighting against Kornilov) Kerensky's weakness and vacillation. That has been done in the past as well. Now, however, it has become the all-important thing and this constitutes the change.


On July 3-4 it could have been argued, without violating the truth, that the correct thing to do was to take power, for our enemies would in any case have accused us of insurrection and ruthlessly treated us as rebels. However, to have decided on this account in favour of taking power at that time would have been wrong, because the objective conditions for the victory of the insurrection did not exist.


Therefore, an insurrection on July 3-4 would have been a mistake; we could not have retained power either physically or politically. We could not have retained it physically even though Petrograd was at times in our hands, because at that time our workers and soldiers would not have fought and died for Petrograd. There was not at the time that "savageness", or fierce hatred both of the Kerenskys and of the Tseretelis and Chernovs. Our people had still not been tempered by the experience of the persecution of the Bolsheviks in which the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Mensheviks participated.

See? Lenin was well aware that tactics have to be adequated to circumstances, he never told us that tactics are fixed by principle and immutable.


Now, you called me two things that you should perhaps take back now: 1) a liar; 2) an anticommunist.


I am waiting.


Luís Henrique

[Threetune]

So let's quote Lenin:





See? Lenin was well aware that tactics have to be adequated to circumstances, he never told us that tactics are fixed by principle and immutable.


Now, you called me two things that you should perhaps take back now: 1) a liar; 2) an anticommunist.


I am waiting.


Luís Henrique

You are both, of which, more soon.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

No, my Lenin quote is better than yours! Say it ain't so, Lenin!:rolleyes:

You're both being quite deliberately obtuse.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Obviously you have a potential revolutionary situation in Greece -- so revolutionaries should be talking about revolution -- the seizing of power by the proletariat. The KKE will not do this. And of course, neither will Syriza. A new party needs to emerge that can lead the revolution.

[Luís Henrique]

More proof of Lenin calling for revolution before July 1917. As if it was needed? How stupid can one be to say that Lenin was against workers taking power because of some particular, this or that, tactical consideration. Laughable yes, but deliberately consciously misleading!

Of course Lenin was not "against" workers taking power in wrong circumstances; he realised it was impossible, and so that it couldn't be done, and that a party who insisted in trying would be defeated, and lose the support of the class.

Lenin was the leader of a revolutionary party; which means a party that organises and works to build a revolution. This is completely different from mindlessly agitating for revolution without any consideration for circumstances.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Obviously you have a potential revolutionary situation in Greece -- so revolutionaries should be talking about revolution -- the seizing of power by the proletariat. The KKE will not do this. And of course, neither will Syriza. A new party needs to emerge that can lead the revolution.

Organising workers for struggle, and leading them through struggle to the conclusion that seizing power is the only way out of the problems posed by capitalism. Not telling them to take power when they haven't even organised in councils, when they haven't even put up a general strike, when they have no revolutionary party, when the bourgeois State is firmly in place, with no signs of discipline breaches in the military, no hesitation from the police to repress demonstrations, no confusion among the bourgeois press, etc, etc, etc.

And you are wrong about the KKE. Of course it will talk about revolution. What it won't do is to actually work for creating the circumstances in which a revolution can take place.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

You're both being quite deliberately obtuse.

Probably, in which case it would be more helpful of you if you could point us where each one of us is wrong.

Luís Henrique

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Organising workers for struggle, and leading them through struggle to the conclusion that seizing power is the only way out of the problems posed by capitalism. Not telling them to take power when they haven't even organised in councils, when they haven't even put up a general strike, when they have no revolutionary party, when the bourgeois State is firmly in place, with no signs of discipline breaches in the military, no hesitation from the police to repress demonstrations, no confusion among the bourgeois press, etc, etc, etc.

And you are wrong about the KKE. Of course it will talk about revolution. What it won't do is to actually work for creating the circumstances in which a revolution can take place.

Luís Henrique
I agree. Yes they will talk about it -- but in an abstract fashion, and with no intention on actually overthrowing capitalism. They will act as a roadblock to revolution. And I agree, timing matters -- that is a tactical consideration, but a critical one.

[Le Libérer]

“Power to the Soviets.”
You lying anti- communist. [/FONT]
Infractions for flaming.

[Threetune]

So let's quote Lenin:







See? Lenin was well aware that tactics have to be adequated to circumstances, he never told us that tactics are fixed by principle and immutable.


Now, you called me two things that you should perhaps take back now: 1) a liar; 2) an anticommunist.


I am waiting.


Luís Henrique

You consciously and maliciously distort the argument for widespread discussion of workers dictatorship, deliberately quoting from Lenin on the question of “INSERECTION” which as you know full well, but coyly pretend not to, is a tactical consideration along with many tactical considerations that assist the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat and not at all the essence of proletarian dictatorship. You say “That is news; Lenin certainly never wrote or said anything to the effect.“ In fact Lenin never shut up about revolution (and not “insurrection” as you falsely argue) as this below from 1903, ( fourteen years before the discussion on “insurrection” that you quote from) makes clear and gives a timeless example of precisely what all the present-day anti-communist ‘lefts’, you included, to your eternal shame, are NOT saying now to workers.
Like all anti-revolutionary SWP type leaders, your task is to block or generally distort the argument for revolution and you don’t care how you do it.

To the Rural Poor (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1903/rp/index.htm#2)

An Explanation for the Peasants of What the Social-Democrats Want

“That is why the Social-Democratic workers say that the only way to put an end to the poverty of the people is to change the existing order from top to bottom, throughout the country, and to establish a socialist order, in other words, to take the estates from the big landowners, the factories from the factory owners, and money capital from the bankers, to abolish their private propertyand turn it over to the whole working people throughout the country. When that is done the workers’ labour will be made use of not by rich people living on the labour of others, but by the workers themselves and by those elected by them. The fruits of common labour and the advantages from all improvements and machinery will then benefit all the working people, all the workers. Wealth will then grow at a still faster rate because the workers will work better for themselves than they did for the capitalists; the working day will be shorter; the workers’ standard of living will be higher; all their conditions of life will be completely changed.” Lenin 1903. Bold added.

[Luís Henrique]

You consciously and maliciously distort the argument for widespread discussion of workers dictatorship, deliberately quoting from Lenin on the question of “INSERECTION” which as you know full well, but coyly pretend not to, is a tactical consideration along with many tactical considerations that assist the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat and not at all the essence of proletarian dictatorship.

Mkay, you just don't know the difference between agitation and propaganda. :rolleyes:

When you are ready to take power, you agitate insurrection. When you are not, you propagandise it. But you still have to agitate other things - reducing your political activity to propaganda quickly makes you irrelevant in class struggle.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Like all anti-revolutionary SWP type leaders, your task is to block or generally distort the argument for revolution and you don’t care how you do it.

And what do I have to do with the SWP?

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

Back on topic: Syriza's back in the polling lead. :)

[Tabarnack]

Back on topic: Syriza's back in the polling lead. :)

Link...?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-24/greek-poll-shows-syriza-gaining-support-ahead-of-june-17-ballot

[Threetune]

Mkay, you just don't know the difference between agitation and propaganda. :rolleyes:

When you are ready to take power, you agitate insurrection. When you are not, you propagandise it. But you still have to agitate other things - reducing your political activity to propaganda quickly makes you irrelevant in class struggle.

Luís Henrique

Now the IMF is admitting that the post WWII anti-communist Marshall Plan ‘bailout’ for the “soft underbelly” of Europe has failed in Greece and is threatened the Greek and whole European working class with “sub-Saharan” third world conditions if they should have the temerity to keep voting against ‘austerity’, as if voting one way or the other was going to have any effect on the ruinous economic crisis at the heart of capitalism itself. Bankrupt and with nothing to offer humanity but squalid penury routine ‘punishment’ violence and all-out inter-imperialist war all with the pretence that “there is no other way”, capitalism needs finishing onec and for all time.

This crisis is the continuation of the same ‘unsolved’ crisis that lead to every previous slump and depression, both world wars and every bit of anti-communist anti-third world nastiness and there is simply no “recovery”, not now or at any time which is why the communist perspective, since Marx and Engels first set it out, is for the dictatorship of the proletariat as the only possible ‘solution’ to the continuing and growing mayhem.

But still the complacent ‘lefts’ shuffle their feet, dither, hesitate, split sectarian hairs and crack theoretical flees or hope that a bit more ‘street protest’ or another reformist election program will save the day. Having revised and reformed the essentials of communist understanding out of their programs they are united on one thing only, that is, their agreement not to talk about taking power from the capitalists and socialising all production for need not profit.

The Greek workers are invited to the voting booths with nothing but dire threats of third-world pariah status from international capital ringing in their ears while the ‘lefts’ cast about and talk increasingly of a mythical “recovery” solution which they believe actually occurred previously after the last great round of blood-letting in WWII. In reality of course the great Marshall Plan underpinned an anti-communist third-world sweat-shop inflationary boom that once more threatens to drown the world in blood, unless communist revolution is but firmly back on the agenda of all workers gatherings against the wishes of the ‘lefts’.

[Luís Henrique]

the dictatorship of the proletariat as the only possible ‘solution’ to the continuing and growing mayhem.

We all know that.


But still the complacent ‘lefts’ shuffle their feet, dither, hesitate, split sectarian hairs and crack theoretical flees or hope that a bit more ‘street protest’ or another reformist election program will save the day. Having revised and reformed the essentials of communist understanding out of their programs they are united on one thing only, that is, their agreement not to talk about taking power from the capitalists and socialising all production for need not profit.

We don't need to "talk about taking power" in Greece for two reasons: first, we all know it is going to be necessary at some point. Second, this is a message board, not an assembly of the Greek people, and not being deluded, we know that what we discuss here won't change the reality in the Greek ground. We could "talk about taking power" endlessly here (it would be an interesting debate: - I think we should take power in Greece - Yes, certainly the proletariat should take power in Greece - You must be kidding, what we need is that the working class takes power in Greece - Wait a minute, what about taking power in Greece - I agree - No, I agree - Maybe, but I agree more than you - etc.) but only people in Greece can actually take such a step. As of now, they haven't even built the instruments for such (you know, soviets, councils, or however you prefer to call them).

But perhaps you can help us, by explaining what the way to power is in Greece? What do you think the Greek leftists should do, in order that the Greek working class realises it has to take power? What is your strategy (further than bemoaning that everybody else is incompetent, which is probably true but doesn't help too much)?


The Greek workers are invited to the voting booths with nothing but dire threats of third-world pariah status from international capital ringing in their ears while the ‘lefts’ cast about and talk increasingly of a mythical “recovery” solution which they believe actually occurred previously after the last great round of blood-letting in WWII.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course the IMF, EU, etc, etc, international capital in a word will threaten the Greek voters with the fires of hell; they are defending their interests, after all. The 'lefts' are trying to figure what to do, in a complicated situation where no easy way out can be found. Nobody is talking about a "mythical recovery"; the only talk about a capitalist recovery here - by me and A Marxist Historian - do exactly the contrary of what you are whining about: we have sought to demonstrate that the human costs of continuing capitalism in Greece are unbearable - that it needs either a prolonged recession, with the correspondent destruction of the means of life of Greek people, or outright war.

The Greek people still think it is possible to refuse the bailout and keep Greece in the Eurozone; that is what they actually want to happen. How do we dispel such delusion? And how do we do that without furthering another delusion, that Greece can get away from the Eurozone without no actual consequences? And how do we dispel such delusion without selling still further delusions, such as that a socialist Greece, isolated from the rest of the world, is an actual possibility?

Suppose the Greek working class actually takes power in Greece - what do you think happens then? Do you really believe that the duresses the Greek people has been facing during the recent years simply vanish?

Luís Henrique

[Die Neue Zeit]

Mkay, you just don't know the difference between agitation and propaganda. :rolleyes:

When you are ready to take power, you agitate insurrection. When you are not, you propagandise it. But you still have to agitate other things - reducing your political activity to propaganda quickly makes you irrelevant in class struggle.

Luís Henrique

The problem with most of today's left is that it reduces its political activity to agitation, not "propagandism." That, in turn, feeds the [hyper-]"activist" culture. There's a reason why Wilhelm Liebknecht said "Educate! Agitate! Organize!" in that order.

[Threetune]

The most difficult thing and the single most important job for Marxism and Leninism as ever, is wining the ‘theoretical argument’ for the most important piece of understanding that humanity has ever come up with - the dictatorship of the working class against the entire 57 varieties + of specialist anti-communist ‘lefts’ who only ask “how should we take power” as a rhetorical stunt in preparation for some mockery and piss-taking about workers taking power.

[A Marxist Historian]

What is this supposed to mean? How will this “recovery” be possible?

That was just futuristic speculation. There are no *immediate* perspectives of a capitalist recovery in Greece. None.

But, if the workers are crushed, no doubt sooner or later the normal workings of the capitalist boom/bust cycle will happen, and there will be some sort of partial recovery out of the ashes. And then another bust...

Not something to look forward to or work up programs around. Rather something to be avoided at all costs.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Are you not even blushing a bit at calling the growing WWIII conditions of the planet a “recovery”? When most of the capitalist commentators, left and right, talk of recovery they are referring to an expansion of production and trade not its annihilation. Pat yourself on the head for your formally correct, academically undeniable logic and then please tell the boys and girls what this “recovery” is really going to entail in some detail and see if the word “recovery” doesn’t sound a bit wide of the mark.

Um, I think I'll refrain from head patting.

I am not enough of an astrologer to be able to figure out just how awfully unpleasant such a future "capitalist recovery" in Europe would look like. But it's obvious that one of its foundations would be compelling the European and Greek working class to surrender to the hideous austerity measures that the banks want to subject them to. In Greece, outright destruction of Greek trade unions would be a big part of it no doubt.

From the standpoint of the bourgeois press, if the capitalists are making profits then "the economy has recovered." They don't care as much about production as you think. Here in America at least, which allegedly has had a "recovery" under Obama, stock prices go up and up on Wall Street while ever larger sections of the population are becoming permanently jobless and entire cities, like Detroit and New Orleans, have turned into rubble.

And this is in the imperialist center, the master of the world. Everywhere else a "recovery" will look worse.

-M.H.-

[Movimento Sem Terra]

All options are bad . Even Nazis of other countrys like KKE so you can see why all options are bad . KKE didn't join the riots instead they defended the Parlament .

[A Marxist Historian]

I don't think it's that simple, that recession simply has to last long enough since the basic requisite of a renewed cycle of accumulation, implying recovered profitability, is devaluation, either of capital value or outright physical destruction. I don't think that the global ruling class is well equipped to usher in policies conducive to that goal since they've been doing quite the oppsite from the crisis of the 70s (which is also evident in the immediate aftermath of the financial crash when bailouts were orchestrated).

Yes, that is a problem, isn't it? But sooner or later they won't be able to do any more bailouts, and then you'll have bank crashes just like in the '30s. Greece in fact is likely to be what sets that off.

There is no "global ruling class," there are different bourgeoisies in different countries. The EU is not long for this world it seems. Surely it is inevitable that the more successful imperial countries, like the USA and Germany, will just let banks in countries like Greece and Spain and Italy go under.

So the USA and Germany will keep bailing out their own banks, since they can, but pretty soon banks in other countries will have to sink or swim. Which is Merkel's policy in Germany pretty much already.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Organising workers for struggle, and leading them through struggle to the conclusion that seizing power is the only way out of the problems posed by capitalism. Not telling them to take power when they haven't even organised in councils, when they haven't even put up a general strike, when they have no revolutionary party, when the bourgeois State is firmly in place, with no signs of discipline breaches in the military, no hesitation from the police to repress demonstrations, no confusion among the bourgeois press, etc, etc, etc.

And you are wrong about the KKE. Of course it will talk about revolution. What it won't do is to actually work for creating the circumstances in which a revolution can take place.

Luís Henrique

Well, there have indeed been a number of general strikes in Greece. In fact, they've become just about a monthly ritual. But there are no workers councils. And, even more importantly, there is no revolutionary party.

Nonetheless, the situation is pretty revolutionary. So yes, you need to talk about revolution now, but talk about it in an extremely concrete fashion. So the way to talk about revolution right now is to talk about a revolutionary program and what it should include.

The main task right now is to build a revolutionary party in Greece around a correct program, likely through a process of revolutionary regroupment. Programmatic clarity, not opportunistic least common denominator coalitions like Antarsya and even more so Syriza, is what's needed most.

To the best of my knowledge, the only group in Greece with anything resembling a correct revolutionary program is the downright microscopic Greek Spartacist group. They put out a fine program two years ago, here's the URL, as well as the URL for the article on Greece in the current Spartacist newspaper.

http://www.icl-fi.org/english/spc/165/greece.html

http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv/1002/greece.html

-M.H.-