Bring back the draft

[John_Wayne]

I bet most of these pinko leftists never served in the military. I say we bring back the draft. That will make men out of these worms. We'll see how many books they can recite with thier face in a toilet! No! Your no going to college son! Your gonna give me 100.

[Pete]

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/coolnews/980707/media/mean-dinosaur.jpg

[(*]

...Another Masterpiece of mine...

[Blackberry]

Dinosaur game.

[apathy maybe]

Do dragons count?? After all people used to think dinos were dragos.

[(*]

sure they count :cool:

http://www.whyy.org/education/rtl/barney.jpg

[apathy maybe]

bloody stupid thing.

[Guest1]

I love right-wingers

[BRIN]

I'm getting a feeling that your not a millitary man but rather a repressed 14 year old geek trying to make yourself look ''superior'' to these people who make you feel insecure because of thier higher intelect.

[John_Wayne]

Well, I guess you got me. I don't believe in this stuff. I hate John Wayne and conservatives too.
This was all an act. I was acting like a big bubba on purpose. I wanted to see what the reaction would be.
It was worth it! I do have repressed feelings. I have a brother in law who is uneducated, an ass, former GI, football fan and neo-KKK. Sometimes I like to get back at him.

Unfortunately, I used to live with my parents. I was stuck in this little small town. My brother - in - law would come to visit all the time. He would give long lectures about how he hated blacks, queers, and one world government. Well, I admit I never served in the military or played football. I only weigh around 140 pounds So I am a bit inferior. So I never did kick my brother in law's ass. The only thing I could do is sit there and listen to it.

Yeah I guess I'm a pussy, worm, faggot, geek whatever. But you know I like to have a sense of humor about. Like the Eagles song says "GET OVER IT!!"

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

the 'dinosaur game' is one our most effective tools against trolls.
It really confuses them- instead of people telling him to STFU, he dino piccies.

[Purple]

;)

[Guest1]

John wayne, if that's true, talk to us seriously and see what we're all about. Even if you disagree, you'll find that we respect people with differing opinions as long as they respect us. That's a skill I'm sure you brother in law lacked.

The first thing we'd do is stop the dinosaur game :)

[cubist]

http://tubes.ominix.com/art/a/animals/t-rex-dinosaur-01.png

[Hampton]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 12:55 AM
Well, I guess you got me. I don't believe in this stuff. I hate John Wayne and conservatives too.
This was all an act. I was acting like a big bubba on purpose. I wanted to see what the reaction would be.
It was worth it! I do have repressed feelings. I have a brother in law who is uneducated, an ass, former GI, football fan and neo-KKK. Sometimes I like to get back at him.

Unfortunately, I used to live with my parents. I was stuck in this little small town. My brother - in - law would come to visit all the time. He would give long lectures about how he hated blacks, queers, and one world government. Well, I admit I never served in the military or played football. I only weigh around 140 pounds So I am a bit inferior. So I never did kick my brother in law's ass. The only thing I could do is sit there and listen to it.

Yeah I guess I'm a pussy, worm, faggot, geek whatever. But you know I like to have a sense of humor about. Like the Eagles song says "GET OVER IT!!"
http://www.student.smsu.edu/s/san232s/hardfunnypics/ohtheirony-FatBurger.jpeg

[The Children of the Revolution]

Someone PLEASE explain the dinosaur thing one more time...
I've never seen it emlpoyed before, that's all...
Is it a Che-Lives thing?
(I prefer Dragons; very cool)

[Guest1]

trolls get dinosaured. whenever you see a troll, yell dinosaur game, and post a dinosaur picture.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 09:22 PM
I bet most of these pinko leftists never served in the military. I say we bring back the draft. That will make men out of these worms. We'll see how many books they can recite with thier face in a toilet! No! Your no going to college son! Your gonna give me 100.
I served four years in the United States Navy, am a member of Vets for Peace, and a "commie pinko" ;)

I've learned more about war and US imprialism from the deck of a US warship and the 20 something counteries I've been to than you ever will... so back-off cowboy.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 8 2003, 01:41 PM
Someone PLEASE explain the dinosaur thing one more time...
I've never seen it emlpoyed before, that's all...
Is it a Che-Lives thing?
(I prefer Dragons; very cool)
I've never seen it myself.. but than I have been away from che-lives for awile. However I think it is pretty obvious that the dinosaur is a creature who has died out... just like trolls use arguments that are.. old and died out.

I like the idea.. but Personally I'd rather post images of trolls. :)



http://www.dqshrine.com/dq/dq3/troll.jpg

[Guest1]

but that's too obvious :P the dinosaur confuses the fuck out of them.

[RedCeltic]

Good point.

[flayer2]

I would love to see compulsory service in amerika.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 02:23 AM
I would love to see compulsory service in amerika.
For what reason?


Why should anyone be forced to be a slave for the government?

[flayer2]

Well for one thing, I think you will see big changes in US foreign policy, or at least stronger resistance to aggressive military actions.

Also I see military service is a duty rather than slavery, a duty that should be born by the people rather than paid mercenarys.

[Purple]

maybe if there were a draft there would be a more controversial bunch of people in the military, instead of all those eager "for-our-flag-and-country" people....

[(*]

I would wager that most service men & women are there for the money and benefits. They really couldn't care less about defending the nation etc... Until war of course.

Reinstating the draft would be a terrible idea. Only poor people would be drafted!!! All those wealthy bastards will get mommy and daddy to get them out.

Anyway, try to be controversial during basic training....we'll see how long you last.

[The Children of the Revolution]

If you want to reintroduce the draft, following the German method would be a good start. Everyone has to complete either military or community (i.e. Police or Fire - I think) service.

This is a good way to encourage "citizens" to engage in the community, and I would support its introduction in Britain.

[Sabocat]

maybe if there were a draft there would be a more controversial bunch of people in the military, instead of all those eager "for-our-flag-and-country" people....

Spot on (S)aint.

It reminds me of something my uncle said when he came back from (being drafted) Vietnam. (he was jailed several times there for being a subversive :D and handing out copies of the Bill of Rights and other pinko activities :D :D )


His comment while talking about the draft etc, was "There is nothing more dangerous in the world as an all volunteer army"

At the time I didn't think too much about it, but he was absolutely right. It benefits the government having people who want to be in the service rather than those forced to go. You're just not going to have to worry about as much disention in the ranks with people who are legitimately excited at the prospect of finally being able to kill something.

Think about how many soldiers you've seen on the news protesting this current war. Not many right?

[RedCeltic]

As a former serviceman I can tell you that the only “Flag-waving” idiots that I ever had a chance to meet were officers, and NCOs. Most people join the military not to fight America’s battles, but like me, couldn’t afford college on their own, or couldn’t get into it… and were not skilled in a trade to get a decent paying wage. I knew a few people in the service who joined because it was the only way they could get health benefits for their families.

The military also has a hard time keeping newly recruited people in. Besides the large numbers of people who seek to get out by intentionally failing drug tests, or faking homosexuality, of those that do serve their full tour of duty (like myself) only a very small fraction stay in, and than only out of fear of not finding a good job with benefits. Personally I said I’d rather starve than put up with their bullshit another year. I only wanted the college money anyway.

You also underestimate the level that moral has dropped among the troops in Iraq. Something the media didn’t tell you, but you would have seen if you watched President Bush’s speech in Baghdad to the troops… was that a large number of the troops were heckling Bush during his speech. Especially when he said, “You are out here to protect the American way of life and the American people.” Or some bullshit… and I heard quite a few solders say, “WHAT?” You can tell from the overall attitudes of the crowd of enlisted personnel that there was an overall objection to what Bush was saying and a feeling that it wasn’t in the best interests of the American People to risk their lives to occupy Iraq.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

RedCeltic,

Your posts are interesting. Could you tell me where you get your news, because I never hear this... and I would love to hear more about your experiences or other information you may have.

[jermicide]

I read somewhere that the troops in Iraq during the Thanksgiving dinner were greatly filtered, Im guessing to find people that would cheer on the prez instead of boo him. I do remember when he had that speech on the carrier there were some hecklers there, and I do remember seeing the soldiers saying "What?!".

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:37 PM
As a former serviceman I can tell you that the only “Flag-waving” idiots that I ever had a chance to meet were officers, and NCOs. Most people join the military not to fight America’s battles, but like me, couldn’t afford college on their own, or couldn’t get into it… and were not skilled in a trade to get a decent paying wage. I knew a few people in the service who joined because it was the only way they could get health benefits for their families.

The military also has a hard time keeping newly recruited people in. Besides the large numbers of people who seek to get out by intentionally failing drug tests, or faking homosexuality, of those that do serve their full tour of duty (like myself) only a very small fraction stay in, and than only out of fear of not finding a good job with benefits. Personally I said I’d rather starve than put up with their bullshit another year. I only wanted the college money anyway.

You also underestimate the level that moral has dropped among the troops in Iraq. Something the media didn’t tell you, but you would have seen if you watched President Bush’s speech in Baghdad to the troops… was that a large number of the troops were heckling Bush during his speech. Especially when he said, “You are out here to protect the American way of life and the American people.” Or some bullshit… and I heard quite a few solders say, “WHAT?” You can tell from the overall attitudes of the crowd of enlisted personnel that there was an overall objection to what Bush was saying and a feeling that it wasn’t in the best interests of the American People to risk their lives to occupy Iraq.
you are so absolutely on the spot, redceltic. the army did my boyf some good actually because it cleaned him up a LOT and he's actually got a life now. he didn't do it to "serve" the country though i guess he's developed some sort of allegiance to the US now. but foreign policy still tics off him and alot of the other mechanics where he works. he has an upsidedown flag in the window. a couple of his friends failed the pee tests on purpose. his contract ends in 2005 and he actually can't wait for it, very very excited to get out of there. he just goes to work on time and does it because it pays the bills. people need to cut the troops some slack and keep the focus on those in command. can you link me to some sites about the hecklers?

[redstar2000]

Also I see military service is a duty rather than slavery, a duty that should be born by the people rather than paid mercenaries.

Whenever you see the word "duty", your skepticism should rise to flood-level. Roughly translated, its meaning is approximately "you should eat a bucket of shit so your 'betters' don't have to."

The idea that ordinary people should bear the burden of our masters' imperial ambitions is so stupid that it practically drools.


Maybe if there were a draft, there would be a more controversial bunch of people in the military, instead of all those eager "for-our-flag-and-country" people....

Yes, and most of them would be crushed into submission. And some of the others would be just crushed, period.

Red Celtic is exceptional, I think, in that he exited the military more rebellious than he was when he entered. I think the "normal" trajectory is the exact opposite...after years of military life, people come out more servile than when they went in. Military life, after all, is training in servility. You are "conditioned" to "obey without question".

That might be useful for a future cop, junior corporate executive, prison guard, or perhaps a future member of the central committee of a Leninist party...it is counter-productive for the development of future revolutionaries.


"There is nothing more dangerous in the world as an all volunteer army"...It benefits the government having people who want to be in the service rather than those forced to go. You're just not going to have to worry about as much dissension in the ranks with people who are legitimately excited at the prospect of finally being able to kill something.

Yes, that's quite true...and is the main reason that all the capitalist countries are "switching over" to mercenary armed forces.

Everyone knows what happened with America's conscript army in Vietnam and they don't want that happening again.

But there's a drawback...a mercenary army is poorly suited for extended combat. The United States can't fight another Vietnam-type war and will have considerable difficulties maintain its planned long-term occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.

The whole "rationale" of a mercenary army is "go in, win quick, withdraw". With a conscript army, they can just keep pouring in fresh troops until they run out of people to draft...which takes a pretty long time.

Thus I think it likely, in the long run, that an empire based on mercenaries is actually weaker than one based on conscription.

If morale is indeed deteriorating among U.S. mercenaries doing occupation duty in Iraq, it's because the promised "quick win" has not materialized.


Most people join the military not to fight America’s battles, but like me, couldn't afford college on their own, or couldn't get into it… and were not skilled in a trade to get a decent paying wage. I knew a few people in the service who joined because it was the only way they could get health benefits for their families.

Probably true; certainly irrelevant. People have many different reasons for doing many different things. What counts, from a revolutionary perspective, is the objective social role of what they actually do.

When you join the military, what you have "signed up" to do is "fight America's battles".

That's the "bottom line".

There are only a small number of actions that can alter that "bottom line" (in order of increasing danger):

1. Don't re-enlist when your time is up.

2. Fuckup your way to an early discharge.

3. Desert (go A.W.O.L.) to civilian life.

4. Desert and claim political asylum in another country.

5. Desert and join the resistance.

6. Become an informer for the resistance.

7. Engage in open mutiny, violent.

8. Organize open mutiny, violent.

9. Commit suicide.

Unless I missed one, those are the options.


The army did my boyf[riend] some good actually because it cleaned him up a LOT and he's actually got a life now...people need to cut the troops some slack and keep the focus on those in command.

I'm sorry to inform you that your request has been denied.

You see, Hitler didn't personally kill a single Jew. It was "ordinary Germans" who actually committed mass murder.

George Bush & Company haven't murdered a single Iraqi personally...the "dirty work" is done by people like your boyfriend who "just go to work on time because it pays the bills".

In this case, the "work" happens to be murder. And, I might add, murder usually of defenseless civilians, often small children.

"Slack" is a discontinued item with regard to American (and British, etc.) mercenaries.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[RedCeltic]

Your posts are interesting. Could you tell me where you get your news, because I never hear this... and I would love to hear more about your experiences or other information you may have.

I watched that on C-Span. My roommate told me at the time about them doing that during his speach on the Aircraft carrier. Seems kinda weird actually because I couldn't picture them doing that.


Red Celtic is exceptional, I think, in that he exited the military more rebellious than he was when he entered. I think the "normal" trajectory is the exact opposite...after years of military life, people come out more servile than when they went in. Military life, after all, is training in servility. You are "conditioned" to "obey without question".

That's something I really can't deny. Although I do have to admit I did sort of view myself on the left... not really openly Marxist however but getting there. For me you see... I felt that I was in a desperate situation, and wanted to get away from home as quickly as I could... and I kind of figured that was my best option. There were other options but I suppose I didn't think things through... which I sort of realized when I got to boot camp! Ariving in boot camp and realizing you've signed yourself away to four years of hell, following orders from people you don't trust...isn't quite plesant. haha..

The only vets I tend to have anything in common with are those who are members of Vets for peace. They wouldn't like me down at the VFW hall hahaha...

[John_Wayne]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+Dec 9 2003, 04:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedCeltic @ Dec 9 2003, 04:54 AM)
[email protected] 7 2003, 09:22 PM
I bet most of these pinko leftists never served in the military. I say we bring back the draft. That will make men out of these worms. We&#39;ll see how many books they can recite with thier face in a toilet&#33; No&#33; Your no going to college son&#33; Your gonna give me 100.
I served four years in the United States Navy, am a member of Vets for Peace, and a "commie pinko" ;)

I&#39;ve learned more about war and US imprialism from the deck of a US warship and the 20 something counteries I&#39;ve been to than you ever will... so back-off cowboy. [/b]
Hey, I tried to join but I got Hepititus C. However, what would be my motivation to join?
Either it&#39;s because I love my country&#39;s foriegn policy (which I don&#39;t) or to prove I&#39;m not a 140 pound weakling. But, the best policy is to say "fuck society&#39;s standards of what is cool or attractive". Because if your a faggot once you will always be one. Nobody cares what effort you did to overcome your inferiority.
I can say "Yeah, I was in the army for 15 years" But it does&#39;nt change the fact your still ugly and weigh 140 pounds.

For example, African Americans coming back from World War I came back with a sense of pride. However, they were still met with lynchings and race riots.


So I will stick with the Eagles "Get Over It" philosophy. You are born a certain way and you&#39;ll never change. Or why should you change? You might as well be proud of yourself.
If you really believe that then the taunts and put downs won&#39;t bother you.

Anyways, I have been to Asia. Iv&#39;e been to South Korea and the Phillippines. So I know about US imperialism. I&#39;m sorry for trolling but I wanted to see the reaction of Communists to a John Wayne fan.

I watched both "Full Metal Jacket and Green Berets" with a bunch of Filipinos in a barrio. You talk about a tripped out experience. Imagine the thoughts that were going thru my head. Just think about it
"Southeast Asia, poor people, war, Americans, Communists".


That&#39;s where I got the John Wayne Idea.

[John_Wayne]

Should we bring back the draft? If it&#39;s supporting an isolationist America. I would support a isolationist USA 100 % I would gladly fight for a non- imperialist USA. I think people should fight for thier country (not
Oil companies, South Vietnam, South Korea, or Kuwait). If someone invaded Oregon then I would gladly meet them in battle. I&#39;m not against traditional patriotic ideas. I&#39;m just against imperialism and colonialism.

Of course, I want to make another comment. I favor Muhammad Ali&#39;s approach to anti-patriotism to the approach of draft dodgers. If I don&#39;t believe in a war then I&#39;ll go to jail. I won&#39;t go to Canada. I think draft dodging is very cowardly. But, going to jail or being executed is honorable.

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 03:50 AM
I&#39;m sorry to inform you that your request has been denied.

You see, Hitler didn&#39;t personally kill a single Jew. It was "ordinary Germans" who actually committed mass murder.

George Bush & Company haven&#39;t murdered a single Iraqi personally...the "dirty work" is done by people like your boyfriend who "just go to work on time because it pays the bills".

In this case, the "work" happens to be murder. And, I might add, murder usually of defenseless civilians, often small children.

"Slack" is a discontinued item with regard to American (and British, etc.) mercenaries.

i&#39;m glad to say he doesn&#39;t actually shoot anything. i&#39;m not glad to say that he fixes planes that drop bombs and shit.

but then again, hitler would have his lieges kill anyone who opposed the nazi party. and come to think of it, bush does too, wellstone, etc. but the correllation is not so tight. once he&#39;s out though, i&#39;m not going to let him reenlist. if we&#39;re still together anyway.

[peaccenicked]

http://www.zooish.com/_borders/lochness_monster_holding_sign_md_wht.gif