THE EXAMPLE OF DENMARK What policies apply to the "leftist governments"

[Delenda Carthago]

THE EXAMPLE OF DENMARK
What policies apply to the "leftist governments"


What is a "leftist government"? This reveals the so-called "red government" of the Danish Social Democrats and the "Red-Green Alliance", sister party of the SYN / SYRIZA and jointly in the European Left Party.

</span>In the election misleading slogans such parties occurred, claiming to be responsible for the unpopular policy of "neoliberal management", promised: "We will overcome the crisis with investment program, not cuts. </span>Our first concern in addressing unemployment, creating new jobs. " Behold the works and their days :

Elimination of early retirement that could get workers in heavy jobs, which for years have been declassified since completed the 62nd year of age. The normal retirement age is 67 years today and will rise proportionally with the increase of average life. Thus, based on the calculations, those who today are under 10 years will retire at 73.5, regardless of what profession to pursue.
New large tax breaks to big business ... in the name of investment.
Increases taxes on essentials, and as a "fat tax" on most food products, from butter until meat is supposed to ... human health.
The supposed safeguards of the unemployed who were constantly growing ... compulsory acceptance of any job there regardless of specialty. Heard from government lips: "Why a doctor can not go ... clerk at the supermarket?".
Is in the works following the previous "right" government privatization of water services and cleaning.
In the name of "saving revenue for the state" announced hike, as in Greece, for home owners.
Announced, contrary to what was said before the elections, a further increase in transport costs.

And the "icing": The "left" Danish Prime Minister said recently proud "because we commend the offer of Denmark to the wars in Afghanistan and Libya" and added."We shold all be proud of the work of Danish soldiers. In 2012 will be posted and a monument for fallen Danes in international missions. 2012 wont be the year the we will solve our problems.But it may be the year in which the consensus, solidarity and cooperation will flourish for the good of our country. "

Note that in Denmark ... has neither a mnemonioum, nor is in the Eurozone, but the "left" government still smashes the workers.

Translated by Rizospastis (http://www.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=6835592)

[ed miliband]

so as i understand it the kke seek to be elected to the greek parliament; supposing they gained a majority in that institution, and formed the next greek government, what makes you think they'd behave any differently from any other "left" government?

[Per Levy]

Note that in Denmark ... has neither a mnemonioum, nor is in the Eurozone, but the "left" government still smashes the workers.

of course they do, it doesnt matter if denmark is in the eurozone or not its a capitalist state and its governed by capitalist parties.

[Delenda Carthago]

so as i understand it the kke seek to be elected to the greek parliament; supposing they gained a majority in that institution, and formed the next greek government, what makes you think they'd behave any differently from any other "left" government?
KKE does not want anything to do with a CAPITALIST "left" goverment. And that is something that costs for it, since SYRIZA(eurocommunist opportunist front)calls KKE to form a "goverment of the Left", something that would be accepted by the vast majority of the people, but it denys that. Today Papariga would b easily the prime minister in Greece in such a goverment if KKE wanted it.

But KKE has declared that there is not middle programms and no in between stage between Bourgeois Power and Workers Power so in no way its gonna support a "left" goverment like that. KKE's main slogan is "People's Power", which is its own programm for socialism as it has make its conclusions on the history of Eastern Block and its own, making a huge critic to the history of the cuontries that constructed the socialism.

[Delenda Carthago]

of course they do, it doesnt matter if denmark is in the eurozone or not its a capitalist state and its governed by capitalist parties.
Thats what the article is all about! "Left" or "Right" goverments, its all about economy and not politics, and the economy is capitalist, so it cannot be people-friendly in no way.

[ed miliband]

but the kke engage with this system, how do you imagine they would behave supposing they won the election? i watched a kke video you posted and the politics expressed didn't seem to be any different from old school social democracy, with suspicion directed towards finance and the eu in particular, rather than capitalism as a whole.

[Crux]

The Red-Green Alliance are not in government. So maybe you could pass that on to however wrote that article? Fact checking is a good idea even if it's just a little attack piece to defend your splendid isolation. In case it's too much of a bother the parties actually in government are Radical Left, who despite their name are social liberals (the main liberal party carries the name The Left which dates back to a time before the rise of worker's movement.), the Social Democrats (who, of course, are pretty neoliberal) and the Socialist people's party (who are social democrats, mostly, anyway and with a recent love of "law and order"). If an PASOK + Democratic Left government is what the KKE is critizing it might hold some water. Only you're not, you are either delibaretly lying or misinformed.

[Crux]

But perhaps you say aren't the socialist people's party in the same europarliament group as SYRIZA? Perhaps the author just got them and the Red-Green Alliance mixed up? Well they used to be at one point but a couple of years ago they switched to the Green group, because that's how rightwing they are. You know who's in the same eu parlament group as SYRIZA though? Kappa Kappa Epsilon. Together with the Red-Green Alliance sole MEP, who's sitting for The People's Movement Against the EU. But hey what are facts?
Also this, while it could be argued that SYRIZA and the Red-Green Alliance are sisterparties two of the main tendencies in the Red-Green Alliance are the Socialist Worker's Party (Socialistisk Arbejderparti) and International Socialists (Internationella Socialister) , who's respective siter organizations in greece both are in ANTARSYA, SAP's sister org is OKDE-Spartakos and IS sister org is SEK. So what did we learn from this article? Well the KKE as I said the KKE are either cluless or lying. I expect to see a correction in the next issue of your paper. Oh wait. I don't.

[Regicollis]

The Red-Green Alliance is not in government. It is represented in parliament and got pretty good election results because many leftist voters were dissatisfied with the Social Democrats and the Socialist People's Party who has grown increasingly authoritarian and rightist.

The Red-Green Alliance has supported the "red" government not because it sees it as an ideal government but because the alternative is much worse. The government consists not only of the Social Democrats and the Socialist People's Party but also of the Social-Liberal Party who is crackpot libertarian on economic issues and fairly progressive on cultural issues. Since the Social-Liberals are known to be able to support both right-wing and "left"-wing governments they are able to destroy the government at any moment and thus holds the real power.

Because of this the government prefers to work together with rightist parties instead of with the Red-Green Alliance. The Alliance has managed to wrestle a few results from the government at the budget talks last year. For instance they managed to remove the previous policies of giving immigrants reduced social benefits and has been able to get some funding for preventing foreign workers to come to Denmark and work for sub-standard wages.

This is by no means a glorious victory for socialism but one has to consider the alternative to supporting the "red" government.

[Regicollis]

Actually the Red-Green Alliance holds many tendencies. One of its founding parties were the Communist Party of Denmark who (correct me if I'm wrong) is a sister party of KKE.

[Delenda Carthago]

But perhaps you say aren't the socialist people's party in the same europarliament grotp as SYRIZA? Perhaps the author just got them mixed up? Well they used to be at one point but a couple of years ago they switched to the Green group, because that's how rightwing they are. You know who's in the same eu parlament group as SYRIZA though? Kappa Kappa Epsilon. But hey what are facts?
ΚΚΕ is only because the EU forces you to be in a group in the europarliament.

[Crux]

ΚΚΕ is only because the EU forces you to be in a group in the europarliament.
Isn't that cute. So how come your article is full of either very very bad fact checking or deliberate lies? Of course I assume, and the person who wrote the article probably assumes, that your readers know nothing of danish politics and thus will swallow this without question. Is this article representative of the usual "truthiness" of your paper?

[Delenda Carthago]

Isn't that cute. So how come your article is full of either very very bad fact checking or deliberate lies? Of course I assume, and the person who wrote the article probably assumes, that your readers know nothing of danish politics and thus will swallow this without question. Is this article representative of the usual "truthiness" of your paper?
Seriously, after that ridiculus article you posted the other day on Argentina nationalising YTF with that childish level of political thinking, a mistake like that should be the last thing you should be using right now.

[Delenda Carthago]

Actually the Red-Green Alliance holds many tendencies. One of its founding parties were the Communist Party of Denmark who (correct me if I'm wrong) is a sister party of KKE.
The term "sister party" for KKE is kinda loose. It is meeting with many parties, but only few of them are actually close to. Its on the move to find parties and organisations(f.e. FARC or COBAS in Italy) that have a common ground, not like an International.

[Delenda Carthago]

But in any case, cause I dont want to avoid my mistakes, you are right. I m not gonna act funny on that. You obviously got us on this one.

Just to make things more clear. This article is a part of KKE's massive propaganda to clear all the illusions about the so called "Goverment of the Left" SYRIZA trys to pull KKE into. Its not about Red-Green Allience, its on SYRIZA. And being a part of that struggle, I still support it. The mistake of KKE participating on a anti-people's goverment is 10000 bigger than a mistake about a country people dont care about and a party they dont care about.

[Regicollis]

I know that this is a bit off-topic but what is the parliamentary strategy of KKE? Their purism doesn't seem to be that well thought through.

I get it that they don't like Syriza but don't they think that ND is worse? am I wrong in thinking that they are running the risk of indirectly supporting a right-wing government by not supporting the "left"-wing alternative?

[Delenda Carthago]

I know that this is a bit off-topic but what is the parliamentary strategy of KKE? Their purism doesn't seem to be that well thought through.

I get it that they don't like Syriza but don't they think that ND is worse? am I wrong in thinking that they are running the risk of indirectly supporting a right-wing government by not supporting the "left"-wing alternative?
So what should we do? Support the best form of capitalism? And what does that leads us to? Supporting PASOK over ND? SYRIZA over ND? Obama over McCain? Capitalism and the level of "good-worse" is a matter of economy, not politics. There cannot be a "better" capitalism in our days. Thats over. Maybe after a World War, the Capital would have the space to be more nice in order for it to blossom. But right now,not. So, if we support something that is designed to fail, how could we go back to the people and tell them that we are on their side? If we participate in that goverment, how its gonna sustain without us selling out? Look at CPFrance or Italy. Huge parties that in order to be "realistic" and "support the less evil", ended up sold out and bankrupt. Lets learn from our past.

[Crux]

But in any case, cause I dont want to avoid my mistakes, you are right. I m not gonna act funny on that. You obviously got us on this one.

Just to make things more clear. This article is a part of KKE's massive propaganda to clear all the illusions about the so called "Goverment of the Left" SYRIZA trys to pull KKE into. Its not about Red-Green Allience, its on SYRIZA. And being a part of that struggle, I still support it. The mistake of KKE participating on a anti-people's goverment is 10000 bigger than a mistake about a country people dont care about and a party they dont care about.
Oh and indeed it would be a mistake for KKE to participate in a government like the "red-liberal" government of denmark, no question about it. The problem with that is that is this is not what SYRIZA/SYN is suggesting, as far as I can tell. Or did I miss SYRIZAs call for a "left" government together with PASOK and liberals? So it is entirely disingenious for the KKE to use denmark as an example. If denmark is a country "nobody" cares about and the Red-Green Alliance is a party "nobody" cares about may I suggest you do not write an article on it? Because writing an article suggests you do care, but obviously not enough to get even one single fact straight.

Just to recap, the Red-Green Alliance are not in government, the liberals, ex-sozis and reformists (probably more politically close to say the social democrats of a few decades ago) are. The Red-Green Alliance is not strictly speaking SYRIZAS sister party, indeed as I said the Red-Green alliance's sole MEP sits under the umbrella group the People's Movement aginst the EU in th EU parliament which also shows that their view of the EU is considerably closer to your view than that of the leadership/rightwing of Synaspismos. And speaking of the sister parties the Danish Communist Party is in the Red-Green allaince, as has already been said, now I am not so familiar with how the situation is for KKE members in denmark but in sweden the KKE members are in the DKP's sister org the small brezhnivite remnant the Swedish Communist Party, not to be confused with the much larger Communist Party of Sweden up until 2005 known as the Communist Party Marxist Leninist (Revolutionaries). If the same is true in denmark you are in fact probably attacking an org that holds members of your own party with false accusations while trying to attack SYRIZA.

Now am I saying there is nothing to criticize the Red-Green Alliance for in their relationship to the "left" government? Oh there certainly are, for example the parliament group of the Alliance supported danish intervention in Libya, without the mandate from the membership. This was roundly shown at the following conference of the party where the position was changed by a massive majority and a proposal to retroactively distance the party from the parliamentary group's decision, i e directly condemning them as not accuratly representing the party, was very narrowly defeated. So further more any criticism you might have against the Red-Green Alliance's sister org in Greece should be leveled at the SEK and OKDE-Spartakos, ie ANTARSYA, who's sister orgs in Denmark form the largest groups of the Alliance.

I'm not writing this for sectarian reasons but because of the fact that your article failed to get even one single thing right, if you wish to uphold any level of belivability in your criticism of SYRIZA you should not base them on falsehoods and again if you or someone else in your party can get in touch with your editor and the author of that article to clear up this this would be necessary. If not expect any future articles attempting to criticize SYRIZA with examples from outside of Greece to be treated as potentially complete fabrication. If you do go ahead and publish a follow-up with the real facts, which I hope you do, please post it here. If you are not prepared to get in touch with the editor of the paper I will do so myself. If this had been an article in bourgeoisie press, with a similar complete lack of factual statements, I would expect them to do so immediatly. I sincerely hope the KKE press is ready to face up to this, otherwise I must conclude you are delibaretly spreading falsehoods, not in a one-off post on the internet but in the official organ of the party.

[Regicollis]

So what should we do? Support the best form of capitalism? And what does that leads us to? Supporting PASOK over ND? SYRIZA over ND? Obama over McCain? Capitalism and the level of "good-worse" is a matter of economy, not politics. There cannot be a "better" capitalism in our days. Thats over. Maybe after a World War, the Capital would have the space to be more nice in order for it to blossom. But right now,not. So, if we support something that is designed to fail, how could we go back to the people and tell them that we are on their side? If we participate in that goverment, how its gonna sustain without us selling out? Look at CPFrance or Italy. Huge parties that in order to be "realistic" and "support the less evil", ended up sold out and bankrupt. Lets learn from our past.

Realistically speaking the KKE will never get a majority in parliament and since you don't want to support the lesser evil you will never be able to make compromises with any other party. Why are you running for elections then? It doesn't make sense to compete for seats in parliament that you are not going to use.

[Delenda Carthago]

Realistically speaking the KKE will never get a majority in parliament and since you don't want to support the lesser evil you will never be able to make compromises with any other party. Why are you running for elections then? It doesn't make sense to compete for seats in parliament that you are not going to use.
Commintern has given the answer to that long long ago. The changes are not gonna come though the ballot, but you still use it to reach to people.

[Delenda Carthago]

Oh and indeed it would be a mistake for KKE to participate in a government like the "red-liberal" government of denmark, no question about it. The problem with that is that is this is not what SYRIZA/SYN is suggesting, as far as I can tell. Or did I miss SYRIZAs call for a "left" government together with PASOK and liberals? So it is entirely disingenious for the KKE to use denmark as an example. If denmark is a country "nobody" cares about and the Red-Green Alliance is a party "nobody" cares about may I suggest you do not write an article on it? Because writing an article suggests you do care, but obviously not enough to get even one single fact straight.

Just to recap, the Red-Green Alliance are not in government, the liberals, ex-sozis and reformists (probably more politically close to say the social democrats of a few decades ago) are. The Red-Green Alliance is not strictly speaking SYRIZAS sister party, indeed as I said the Red-Green alliance's sole MEP sits under the umbrella group the People's Movement aginst the EU in th EU parliament which also shows that their view of the EU is considerably closer to your view than that of the leadership/rightwing of Synaspismos. And speaking of the sister parties the Danish Communist Party is in the Red-Green allaince, as has already been said, now I am not so familiar with how the situation is for KKE members in denmark but in sweden the KKE members are in the DKP's sister org the small brezhnivite remnant the Swedish Communist Party, not to be confused with the much larger Communist Party of Sweden up until 2005 known as the Communist Party Marxist Leninist (Revolutionaries). If the same is true in denmark you are in fact probably attacking an org that holds members of your own party with false accusations while trying to attack SYRIZA.

Now am I saying there is nothing to criticize the Red-Green Alliance for in their relationship to the "left" government? Oh there certainly are, for example the parliament group of the Alliance supported danish intervention in Libya, without the mandate from the membership. This was roundly shown at the following conference of the party where the position was changed by a massive majority and a proposal to retroactively distance the party from the parliamentary group's decision, i e directly condemning them as not accuratly representing the party, was very narrowly defeated. So further more any criticism you might have against the Red-Green Alliance's sister org in Greece should be leveled at the SEK and OKDE-Spartakos, ie ANTARSYA, who's sister orgs in Denmark form the largest groups of the Alliance.

I'm not writing this for sectarian reasons but because of the fact that your article failed to get even one single thing right, if you wish to uphold any level of belivability in your criticism of SYRIZA you should not base them on falsehoods and again if you or someone else in your party can get in touch with your editor and the author of that article to clear up this this would be necessary. If not expect any future articles attempting to criticize SYRIZA with examples from outside of Greece to be treated as potentially complete fabrication. If you do go ahead and publish a follow-up with the real facts, which I hope you do, please post it here. If you are not prepared to get in touch with the editor of the paper I will do so myself. If this had been an article in bourgeoisie press, with a similar complete lack of factual statements, I would expect them to do so immediatly. I sincerely hope the KKE press is ready to face up to this, otherwise I must conclude you are delibaretly spreading falsehoods, not in a one-off post on the internet but in the official organ of the party.
SYRIZA is a capitalist party that supports the partisipation of Greece to EU, that has a great relationship with the industry owners of the country, that has collaborated with PASOK in many town halls, syndicates, universities, that incomed a huge part of PASOK's mechanism(from MPs to syndicalists), that cannot be trusted in no way. So there is no reason why KKE should do this.

[Crux]

Oh I am asking you to retract your factual mistakes for your own benefit. If you do not want to do so that is up to you. But bear in mind, if these are not mere mistakes but blatant lies, they are very easy to demolish. But it is on your head, if you wish to be publicly embarressed that is your choice.

[Crux]

So, comrade Delenda Carthago, I have to ask, since you came on here posting this article sincerely, I have no doubt, believing it to be correct how do you feel now that it has easily been demonstrated that it is not so? You yourself admit it is merely a part of your propaganda against SYRIZA. I suspect the article was not written by mistake, I don't think the author who wrote that article or the editors who let that through are merely extremely lax with their fact checking. If that had been the case, perhaps they would have confused the Socialist People's Party with the Red-Green Alliance. A big mistake to be sure, but perhaps possible, but no the entire article is a "mistake" not only in that it claims falsely that the Red-Green alliance is in government, but in that beyond that it does not at all describe the government of denmark for what it really is. I find it hard to believe that your editors and writer can be so ignorant. Most likely these are delibarete lies, as part of your "propaganda" to attempt to score a cheap point against SYRIZA. What does it say about your politics that you have to lie, if we assume it is not a case of extremely bad factchecking which is hardly complimentary either, to make your argument? That as you yourself admit it plays on the fact that your readership and members probably know nothing or very little of danish politics. Or hoping this to be a fact. Don't you find that insulting against you yourself, and indeed the entire member base and readership of your paper to whom this is presented as fact?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Anti-anarchist, pig-collaborating, election-standing KKE party members posts article criticising a sister party of SYRIZA in another country that is not in government, for the policies of said government, as evidence that SYRIZA are class-collaborating, election-standing reformists??

Same old, same old.:thumbdown:

[Crux]

So, comrade Delenda Carthago, I have to ask, since you came on here posting this article sincerely, I have no doubt, believing it to be correct how do you feel now that it has easily been demonstrated that it is not so? You yourself admit it is merely a part of your propaganda against SYRIZA. I suspect the article was not written by mistake, I don't think the author who wrote that article or the editors who let that through are merely extremely lax with their fact checking. If that had been the case, perhaps they would have confused the Socialist People's Party with the Red-Green Alliance. A big mistake to be sure, but perhaps possible, but no the entire article is a "mistake" not only in that it claims falsely that the Red-Green alliance is in government, but in that beyond that it does not at all describe the government of denmark for what it really is. I find it hard to believe that your editors and writer can be so ignorant. Most likely these are delibarete lies, as part of your "propaganda" to attempt to score a cheap point against SYRIZA. What does it say about your politics that you have to lie, if we assume it is not a case of extremely bad factchecking which is hardly complimentary either, to make your argument? That as you yourself admit it plays on the fact that your readership and members probably know nothing or very little of danish politics. Or hoping this to be a fact. Don't you find that insulting against you yourself, and indeed the entire member base and readership of your paper to whom this is presented as fact?
I noticed you've yet to respond to this.

[A Marxist Historian]

Anti-anarchist, pig-collaborating, election-standing KKE party members posts article criticising a sister party of SYRIZA in another country that is not in government, for the policies of said government, as evidence that SYRIZA are class-collaborating, election-standing reformists??

Same old, same old.:thumbdown:

Despite Delenda's fumblefingered inaccuracies, and the hypocrisy of a posting like this from a KKE supporter, nonetheless he (or rather the KKE one suspects) has a point.

Since the Danish Red-Green Alliance supports the Danish government, even though it does not participate in it, for all practical purposes this means that the parties in the RGA at least are indeed class collaborating reformists. If supporting a bourgeois government doesn't make you a class collaborator, it's hard to think what does. And their excuse for this, that they've gotten the regime to make a small concession or two to immigrants in return, is the very definition of reformism.

But the KKE has supported Greek bourgeois governments in the past, and if the bourgeois parties were to accept the KKE idea of leaving the EU and bringing back the drachma, I suspect the KKE would do it again.

-M.H.-

[Delenda Carthago]

Red-Green Allience supports the goverment?

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Yes. The government itself does not hold a majority in the Danish parliament, so the RGA acts as a "supporting party", but has no ministers, and is therefore not part of the government.

[Crux]

See if the KKE had written an article actually criticizing the red green unity list that would have been all good and well, the thing is though they did not. This is where the lying becomes extra amusing. And AMH the KKE's intention was to lie to their membership to score a cheap point.