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View Full Version : Demarchy and democratic "reform" trilemma: thoughts?



Die Neue Zeit
5th May 2012, 16:20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy#Democratic_reform_trilemma


Democratic theorists have identified a trilemma due to the presence of three desirable characteristics of an ideal system of direct democracy, which are challenging to deliver all at once. These three characteristics are participation - widespread participation in the decision making process by the people effected; deliberation - a rational discussion where all major points of view are weighted according to evidence; and equality - all members of the population on whose behalf decisions are taken have an equal chance of having their views taken into account. Empirical evidence from dozens of studies suggests deliberation leads to better decision making. However, the more participants there are the more time and money is needed to set up good quality discussions with clear neutrally presented briefings. Also it is hard for each individual to contribute substantially to the discussion when large numbers are involved. For the system to respect the principle of political equality, either everyone needs to be involved or there needs to be a representative random sample of people chosen to take part in the discussion. In the definition used by scholars such as James Fiskin, deliberative democracy is a form of direct democracy which satisfies the requirement for deliberation and equality but does not make provision to involve everyone who wants to be included in the discussion. Participatory democracy, by Fiskin's definition, allows inclusive participation and deliberation, but at a cost of sacrificing equality - because widespread participation is allowed there will rarely be sufficient resources to compensate people who give up their time to take part in the deliberation, and so the participants tend to be those with a strong interest in the issue to be decided, and therefore will often not be representative of the overall population. Fiskin instead argues that random sampling should be used to select a small but still representative number of people from the general public.

Fiskin concedes it is possible to imagine a system that transcends the trilemma, but it would require very radical reforms if such a system is to be integrated into mainstream politics. To an extent, the Occupy movement attempted to create a system that satisfies all three desirable requirements at once, but at a cost of the resulting system being widely criticized for being slow and unwieldy.

I really don't agree with Fiskin's definitions here. Precisely because "deliberative democracy" "adopts elements of both consensus decision-making and majority rule" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_democracy), that part employs consensus at times seems to break the equality principle (the minority has too much veto power).

There is also the distinction between deliberation and decision-making. The body responsible for deliberation may be different altogether from the body responsible for decision-making. Those leaning more towards direct democracy may wish for the deliberation body to be formed demarchically, but for the decision-making to be more direct. Conversely, both participation and deliberation can be had with a larger participatory body and a demarchic decision-making body.

Thoughts?

Q
11th May 2012, 15:53
I really don't see an issue here. The quote already gives the solution to the trilemma, which is demarchy.

So, what do you want to discuss?

Die Neue Zeit
12th May 2012, 04:53
Comrade, I didn't see any solutions in the quotes, and I'm sure you didn't have the Occupy experience in mind, either. :confused:

Comrade_Stalin
12th May 2012, 20:20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy#Democratic_reform_trilemma

I really don't agree with Fiskin's definitions here. Precisely because "deliberative democracy" "adopts elements of both consensus decision-making and majority rule" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_democracy), that part employs consensus at times seems to break the equality principle (the minority has too much veto power).

There is also the distinction between deliberation and decision-making. The body responsible for deliberation may be different altogether from the body responsible for decision-making. Those leaning more towards direct democracy may wish for the deliberation body to be formed demarchically, but for the decision-making to be more direct. Conversely, both participation and deliberation can be had with a larger participatory body and a demarchic decision-making body.

Thoughts?

Am happy to see you are still around. I would like to point out that the trilemma is in fact a dilemma. Hear my point. Decision-making is the ends not the means to any governing body. How we go about the decision-making is what is under debate. One group those pro-democracy wish for deliberation. Where decisions are made by debate. As we know from elections in the United States those who normally when the debate are those with the best or more expensive advertising campaigns. Think of all the negative attack ads you've seen. The other group pro-Demarchy wish for equality. As under the lottery system everyone has an equal chance of becoming a leader. There is no one better qualified than you, and there is no one that you are better qualified than. Therefore there is no need to deliberate who is the better leader. Only random selection will work under an equalitarian society.

Q
13th May 2012, 00:07
Comrade, I didn't see any solutions in the quotes, and I'm sure you didn't have the Occupy experience in mind, either. :confused:

From the article:

These three characteristics are participation - widespread participation in the decision making process by the people effected; deliberation - a rational discussion where all major points of view are weighted according to evidence; and equality - all members of the population on whose behalf decisions are taken have an equal chance of having their views taken into account
So, there supposedly is a paradox, or "trilemma" as it is called, where all three cannot be carried out simultaneously. But what does demarchy do?

1. It allows for widespread participation: At any one time we do not have ministers and mayors selected, but councils of every specific topic on local, regional, national and global levels. This implies a far wider direct participation of the population than is possible under bourgeois democracy. Furthermore, we see new lotteries every short amount of time (such as a year).
2. It allows for a better deliberation than under bourgeois democracy. Stripped from all minoritarian political agendas, we have a far more pure scientific approach that is possible. Science is after all knowledge that empowers us all and benefits us all. It would end all mystification of deliberation, which serves only minority rule. So, deliberation based on what is good for the collective of society would not only be possible, but be the norm.

This is not to say that parties, and thus deliberation according to political agendas, will cease to exist, but they'll have a vastly different character contrasted to today's parties. Since everyone in society is a ruler and to be ruled in turns, political parties would truly have to have mass proportions to remain influencial, if not by direct membership than by its influence in the media and "public opinion". And this is indeed the party we should aim for.
3. Demarchy implies equality of the highest order for obvious reasons.

So yes, I don't see the issue.

Die Neue Zeit
13th May 2012, 03:59
From the article:

So, there supposedly is a paradox, or "trilemma" as it is called, where all three cannot be carried out simultaneously.

Yes, another political science "triangle" mentality.


But what does demarchy do?

1. It allows for widespread participation: At any one time we do not have ministers and mayors selected, but councils of every specific topic on local, regional, national and global levels. This implies a far wider direct participation of the population than is possible under bourgeois democracy. Furthermore, we see new lotteries every short amount of time (such as a year).

Damn, I almost forgot about what I wrote regarding parallelism, separation of powers the *wrong* (liberal, bourgeois, etc.) way vs. separation of powers the *right* way (issues, themes, etc.).

Another criticism I had in mind when making this thread was that demarchic term limits would be more than enough to satisfy both deliberation and participation.

For the record, check out the wiki "Talk" on the article.


2. It allows for a better deliberation than under bourgeois democracy. Stripped from all minoritarian political agendas, we have a far more pure scientific approach that is possible. Science is after all knowledge that empowers us all and benefits us all. It would end all mystification of deliberation, which serves only minority rule. So, deliberation based on what is good for the collective of society would not only be possible, but be the norm.

This is not to say that parties, and thus deliberation according to political agendas, will cease to exist, but they'll have a vastly different character contrasted to today's parties. Since everyone in society is a ruler and to be ruled in turns, political parties would truly have to have mass proportions to remain influencial, if not by direct membership than by its influence in the media and "public opinion". And this is indeed the party we should aim for.
3. Demarchy implies equality of the highest order for obvious reasons.

So yes, I don't see the issue.

The "triangle" mentality certainly has its limits. ;)

Vladimir Innit Lenin
15th May 2012, 21:11
What the shitting fuck is a trilemma?

Are you being purposefully obtuse? I don't even know why I ask. I expect i'll get 2 pages worth of demarchy-proletocrat-worker-class-lefts-patrioticide-Marxial crap in reply.

Q
15th May 2012, 21:14
What the shitting fuck is a trilemma?

Dilemma: Problem with two positions. Di = 2
Trilemma: Problem with three positions. Tri = 3

Not exactly rocket science...