Humanity deserves no better

[Elysian]

The argument with my friend went something like this:

Me: capitalism encourages people to be greedy and---

Friend (interjecting): yes, capitalism is evil, so what? Humanity deserves no better.


I was stunned. I am no fan of humanity, so how do I answer? It's true that considering history, humans have been nothing but barbaric. So is my friend right in saying that a barbaric species deserves a barbaric system?

[Ocean Seal]

Does humanity or at least revleft deserve better than your posts? I hope so. I don't understand why good posters are banned for trivial things and obvious trolls are allowed to wreak havoc for months. But hey, not like I'm a mod.

[Brosip Tito]

The argument with my friend went something like this:

Me: capitalism encourages people to be greedy and---

Friend (interjecting): yes, capitalism is evil, so what? Humanity deserves no better.


I was stunned. I am no fan of humanity, so how do I answer? It's true that considering history, humans have been nothing but barbaric. So is my friend right in saying that a barbaric species deserves a barbaric system?Human's have been barbaric?

More like the material conditions were such that the ruling classes benefit(ed) from brutality.

This "brutality" is a direct result of these material conditions. Primitive Communism, perhaps, could avoid this idea of brutality -- im not 100% on that, but antiquity, feudalism and captialism, are cases in which brutality benefits the rulers.

This guy your arguing with sounds like an asshat.

Ask him, how exactly are humans inherently barbaric? Ask for examples, evidence, etc. Before that, look into cases of humans not being brutal to use as counter-examples.

[Elysian]

Human's have been barbaric?

More like the material conditions were such that the ruling classes benefit(ed) from brutality.

This "brutality" is a direct result of these material conditions. Primitive Communism, perhaps, could avoid this idea of brutality -- im not 100% on that, but antiquity, feudalism and captialism, are cases in which brutality benefits the rulers.

This guy your arguing with sounds like an asshat.

Ask him, how exactly are humans inherently barbaric? Ask for examples, evidence, etc. Before that, look into cases of humans not being brutal to use as counter-examples.

He wasn't talking about the system, feudalism or capitlism or socialism. He was talking about humans, generally. For instance, if one considers the present time where people have more knowledge and skills, where science has developed a lot, there still exist among these civilized people the same vicious traits that characterized ancient, primitive peoples: greed, cruelty etc. this was his point, that humans remain the same despite changes from one system to another.

[hatzel]

I am no fan of humanity

I actually never knew that about you.

[dodger]

I actually never knew that about you.

If I read another Elysian post, I'll stop buying fair trade tea. Buy a rake of arms shares.:bored:

[hatzel]

Do you really deserve better than...ah...standard trade tea, though?

[Brosip Tito]

He wasn't talking about the system, feudalism or capitlism or socialism. He was talking about humans, generally. For instance, if one considers the present time where people have more knowledge and skills, where science has developed a lot, there still exist among these civilized people the same vicious traits that characterized ancient, primitive peoples: greed, cruelty etc. this was his point, that humans remain the same despite changes from one system to another.And, as I stated, it's a result of the material conditions of society at the time, and the fact that the ruling class benefits from brutality.

I mean, how can you say that humans are generally brutal?

What "traits" are you talking about? Do explain these traits.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

I get what you mean.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Why should real living humans suffer because of some imbeciles views on humanity as an abstract entity?

[Railyon]

Okay, final nail in the coffin - I'll go join the right wingers, they at least have stuff like Natural Law, or putting a rubber on your willy as RA Wilson called it

[Blake's Baby]

How about this as a debating tactic, Elysian:

1 - agree with everything your stupid, misanthropic friend says;
2 - when he's not expecting it, stab him in the back of the head?

First, he'll appreciate it that you're demonstrating his point about humans being violent and brutal, and second, no-one will miss him as he's obviously an arsehole and you will be doing your bit to make humanity on average that little bit nicer and saner, thanks.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Human nature is always to be determined, by human choice.

In the days when great warlords, genocide, and enslavement were even worse than they are today, the vast majority of humans were playing their social role and loving their mates and offspring.

Illegitimate power is responsible for almost every tragedy in human history. The world view people have today, despite their relative wealth and opportunity to transcend the old slave relations, is the most glaringly obvious example of this in our (ie US and rich European) society. It's this omnipresent world view that makes humans into the creatures you and your friend don't like. Tell him that.

[danyboy27]

The argument with my friend went something like this:

Me: capitalism encourages people to be greedy and---

Friend (interjecting): yes, capitalism is evil, so what? Humanity deserves no better.


I was stunned. I am no fan of humanity, so how do I answer? It's true that considering history, humans have been nothing but barbaric. So is my friend right in saying that a barbaric species deserves a barbaric system?
History of who? The history of the world is not something that is monolithic, some civilisation where pretty friendly, other where not, that precisely why we have every right to get a better political and economical system.

If the American natives, the brittish free peasantry and some african tribes where able to live relatively peacefully i dont see why with our well developed technologies and extremely refined organisational structure we couldnt do the same.

[TrotskistMarx]

I think that the term "humanity" is too general. Because there are nations in this world of loving, friendly good people like Venezuela, Haiti, Cuba, Russia, Spain etc. The thing is that your friend said that humanity deserves no better, because of the ultra-individualism way of life in America, The Ugly American Syndrome and how evil and barbaric most people in America.

The USA should not be labeled as a developed society. It is an economically developed nation, but not culturally and in the way people behave. This society of the USA is too barbaric, there is too much hatred in America. The USA is so barbaric, so the people of USA are so narcissists that a Russia thinker Igor Panarin predicted that America will be split into 4 to 5 different countries.

The USA is a madhouse. I would love to move to Venezuela or to another country some day, because I find lots of negative energies in this society, americans are too negative, too pessimists, too anti-social, too unfriendly. And we as humans tend to emulate and copy the behaviour patterns of the place in which we live. So if you live in a happy society like Cuba and Venezuela you will feel happier. But if you live in a sad society like USA it will be real hard for you to behave in an outgoing positive way.

I think Karl Marx wrote something related to this. In The German Ideology, Karl Marx claimed that France and England were more positive and open-minded for a radical change in his lifetime than Germany. The behaviour of the germans was a lot like the behaviour of the americans, people full of apathy, stupidity, pessimism and were too introverted.

It's true that there is lots of barbarism in this world, but not in the whole world, the places with more barbaric negative behaviour are USA, Mexico, Guatemala, and many other nations of this world where because of the low investment in education by their capitalist governments people remain in a state of stupidity, low social skills, darkness and barbarism


.



The argument with my friend went something like this:

Me: capitalism encourages people to be greedy and---

Friend (interjecting): yes, capitalism is evil, so what? Humanity deserves no better.


I was stunned. I am no fan of humanity, so how do I answer? It's true that considering history, humans have been nothing but barbaric. So is my friend right in saying that a barbaric species deserves a barbaric system?

[#FF0000]

people are as good as they are allowed to be

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I think that the term "humanity" is too general. Because there are nations in this world of loving, friendly good people like Venezuela, Haiti, Cuba, Russia, Spain etc. The thing is that your friend said that humanity deserves no better, because of the ultra-individualism way of life in America, The Ugly American Syndrome and how evil and barbaric most people in America.

.
Why do you single out those specific nations? What makes you sure they consist of so much better people? Have you been to any of those places?
I highly doubt f.e. Russians as a whole are any more compassionate than people in the US.

[Jimmie Higgins]

He wasn't talking about the system, feudalism or capitlism or socialism. He was talking about humans, generally. For instance, if one considers the present time where people have more knowledge and skills, where science has developed a lot, there still exist among these civilized people the same vicious traits that characterized ancient, primitive peoples: greed, cruelty etc. this was his point, that humans remain the same despite changes from one system to another.But this isn't historically true. If it were just some "natural" response given any circumstances, then rates of violence, attitudes towards greed and wealth and so on would be constant - the only variables being maybe population numbers and density. As these things change in observable ways over time and even measurable fluctuations since data on violence and other behaviors has been more systematically counted, I think we can rule out some kind of inherent cause.

It's just a cynical and pessimistic (and lazy IMO) apology for the staus-quo. Misanthropy is just the social theory of narcissists. I mean really, why stop at capitalism, ask this person, why humans don't deserve slavery or fascism or feudalism?

[Hexen]

The "Human Nature" Argument is a product of capitalism which is a rather dangerous way of thinking which leads to misanthropy as mentioned in this thread.

It's also another way for capitalists to escape responsibility by saying "I can't help it, it's my nature" the same way abusers/rapists get away from their crimes while the victim is punished which in the end it all boils down to rewarding the individual or basically the true meaning of individual freedom (keyword since capitalism is based on individualism).

[bcbm]

fuxk i never hrtought of that

[black magick hustla]

if war is not holy men are only ancient clay

[moulinrouge]

People who say such things are rationalizing their own anxiety or depression.

[Ravachol]

Humanity deserves to go through a torrent of steel and fire to cleanse itself of sin, to reemerge as a new spiritual elite and crush the decadent darkness of Kali Yuga!

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

HRlKI9KZsQA
8UKKrZMAy94

[MotherCossack]

gor blimey, bit simplistic, this is.
we humans are all barbarians full stop. is that so?..
we certainly know how to act out barbaric behaviour.
but I would say...rather than barbarism ... we like following, we like guidelines , someone to copy/follow, we are so easily led... so as long as a barbaric monster is not given the job... we should be alright.