Enormous KKE gathering in Athens

[Delenda Carthago]

_4tB99XThAA

KKE leads to the elections with by far the biggest demo of all the parties! People chose to dismiss the "antimnemonioum" capitalist solutions, all these parties that promised them the days before the crisis simply with a vote in Sunday's election and gave their support to the party that promised them the road with sacrifises, the road to People's Power, the road to socialism!


Of course there is no illusion that the elections in Sunday are going to make the passage to socialism, nor even that KKE is going to be no1, but the fact that KKE manages to gather more people than every party that is going to be above it on the elections, shows how deeply rooted KKE is to the greek working class. KKE produces militants, not voters.No matter what the elections might show, KKE has showed its power.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I read KKK.Wasn't expecting red flags. :D

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Thread moved.

[Delenda Carthago]

B0_GvJ3ClCo

PAME gathering for Mayday, outside of the factory of Elliniki Halivourgia, in the town of Elefsina, yesterday. Everyday, communists are on the streets, giving every struggle they can. Viva la revolucion!:rolleyes:

[Red Commissar]

...

Was this a May 1st gathering (as well as that PAME one you posted) If so, that's good. Some of the few sources here tried to push that only 3,000 or so even showed up for demonstrations that day and were trying to use that as evidence of anxiety with unions and such.

[pax et aequalitas]

Sorry to interupt the insults but I just want to say: That's a nice demo you got there. I am not a fan of the KKE, but I rather have the KKE than Golden Dawn. If people support the KKE at least we know that they as people are on our side ideologically. Now sure some of their actions are questionable and that also goes for some of their tactics.

But what such a demo shows is that the left is still very much alive. Whether they chose to wave the red flag or the black flag is not even relevant. The point is people are willing to wave that red flag. Communism suffers from a bad image, but if people in large numbers go out on the street and wave red flags then it becomes relevant again and it shows that communism is not dead and maybe people will consider it again and get past that bad image.

[RedPersonality]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vMjpYJ3Fuqg/T6EcefHyEOI/AAAAAAAAAsg/Ky40hYZc4BE/s720/5.jpeg

[Sasha]

verbalwarning all around, keep this ontopic, if anyone want to start another shit on the KKE leadership thread by all means do so and ill gladly participate but do not piss on the parade of the workers, all off topic shit trashed

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

verbalwarning all around, keep this ontopic, if anyone want to start another shit on the KKE leadership thread by all means do so and ill gladly participate but do not piss on the parade of the workers, all off topic shit trashed

But the problem is, that it is precisely when the masses are in motion that the question of who leads is most acute. It is not "shitting" on the KKE to criticize their earlier moves. It's great that there is a lot of militant anger at the bourgeoisie and that people are taking to the streets. But that will never be enough to make a revolution. Having been brought up in a political environment where polemics are simply the way things are discussed, I find some people on this forum to be rather thin-skinned.

[Delenda Carthago]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vMjpYJ3Fuqg/T6EcefHyEOI/AAAAAAAAAsg/Ky40hYZc4BE/s720/5.jpeg
This is from May Day and its not the whole. There another photo that shows the other side.

[RedPersonality]

From the rally of KKE yesterday.

"Trust the KKE, in the face of the storm which has already been announced.

The working men and women, the poor employees, professionals and farmers, even if they did not participate in strikes and other mobilizations, can and must vote with their class and political instinct as the main criterion.

The participation of Greece in the EU has brought you the experience that the accession benefited the monopolies exclusively and was at the expense of the peoples."
more here (http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-05-03-KKE-rally/)


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kcq9MLXuYns/T6KJbZyWeSI/AAAAAAAAAxs/UyoEWzFrfLI/s912/2.jpeg


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EjFnXrJmoic/T6KKR8Oa9BI/AAAAAAAAAxs/pCLqS6gXugg/s912/14.jpeg

[JoeySteel]

Long Live the Communist Party of Greece!! The Greek Communists and PAME workers are inspiring the world.

[Delenda Carthago]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EjFnXrJmoic/T6KKR8Oa9BI/AAAAAAAAAxs/pCLqS6gXugg/s912/14.jpeg
The banner says: emancipation! no to the dillemas and the new illusions(call me SYRIZA:D)
powerfull KKE

[Delenda Carthago]

K-1Stz2kw0Y

That's KKE.

[Tim Finnegan]

If we scew up our eyes and wish really hard, maybe it will be 1928 again.

[Conscript]

If we scew up our eyes and wish really hard, maybe it will be 1928 again.

What's so special about 1928?

[Grenzer]

While it is good to see the workers flock to what they perceive to be a revolutionary organization, I have to question whether the KKE would find itself on the right side of the barricade at the decisive moment. They seem to have a tendency towards coalitionism and other forms of class collaboration.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Not a single black flag in sight.

if KKE goes to power do you think it will be any different, (the communist party of many countries is social-democratic) I think it will be more or less the same (politicaly).

[ed miliband]

Not a single black flag in sight.

if KKE goes to power do you think it will be any different, (the communist party of many countries is social-democratic) I think it will be more or less the same (politicaly).

and the social-democratic parties in most countries are... neoliberal.

[Sasha]

While it is good to see the workers flock to what they perceive to be a revolutionary organization, I have to question whether the KKE would find itself on the right side of the barricade at the decisive moment. They seem to have a tendency towards coalitionism and other forms of class collaboration.

lets just say quoting the historic constitution of athens has never been more apt:

“Whoever does not take sides in a civil war is struck with infamy, and loses all right to politics.”

[TheRedAnarchist23]

and the social-democratic parties in most countries are... neoliberal.

Exactly, I will give examples with portuguese parties:

Partido Socialista (socialist party)- social-democratic(ish) (oposition)

Partido Social-Democrata (social-democratic party)- neo liberal (won the elections)

Partido Comunista Português (portuguese communist party)- social-democratic (4th place in elections)

Centro Democratico Social- Partido Popular (democratic social centrist- people's party) - conservative (3rd place)

Partido Ecologista (we just call them "verdes" or greens)- you can guess

Bloco de esquerda (leftist bloc) - Some form of socialism (gets the less votes)

[Rafiq]

KKE is a Bourgeois party. They're social democrats.

End of story.

[Delenda Carthago]

While it is good to see the workers flock to what they perceive to be a revolutionary organization, I have to question whether the KKE would find itself on the right side of the barricade at the decisive moment. They seem to have a tendency towards coalitionism and other forms of class collaboration.
KKE has already one civil war in its back and wont stop in front of another. Yesterday an ex neoliberal prime minister declared that "KKE cannot be legal and illegal at the same time" and that it should slow down because they might send it to being outlaw again. The answer of the party was

"Mr. Mitsotakis knows what he says. He shows that the system knows its main opponent, the main opponent, the Communist Party, which organizes the struggles of workers, their confidence in themselves and to their right. Besides, Mr. Mitsotakis has said before and ever, that the Communist Party can not put it in his hand, not bought, does not succumb, not interested in glamorous locations and above all interested in serving the people.

Mr. Mitsotakis for the second time tells the truth from his own perspective, of course, against the Communist Party, telling the truth."

The communists didnt back down in the fascist dictatorship of Metaxas, didnt backed down to the Nazi Occupation, didnt in the Civil War, didnt in White Terrorism, didnt in the years of Junta, and wont in the future. The only place in the mothafuckin world that the militancy of KKE is questioned, is in Revleft.

[Delenda Carthago]

KKE is a Bourgeois party. They're social democrats.

End of story.
You, or those that liked your post. Explain why you say that of gtfo.

[Tim Finnegan]

They're Brezhnevites. What more do you want?

[Grenzer]

They're Brezhnevites. What more do you want?

Well they've beaten up workers, defended bourgeois institutions, 'accidentally' cooperated with fascists, and cried over Kim Jong-Il's death.. so not much, I guess.

It's beyond me how people can continue to defend them. Ultimately, their connection to the bourgeois state and left-liberals has turned them towards reformism. The KKE is unsalvageable at this point, much like the post-war SPD. There needs to be a new revolutionary party to really serve the interests of the workers, as opposed to the liberals and reformists like the KKE, but there doesn't seem to be much of a vacuum for one at the moment.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I was in the 2 May gathering! Awesome and a shit load of people were there! However, I think on the Thessaloniki gathering it was more crowded.

[Delenda Carthago]

They're Brezhnevites. What more do you want?
Really? How?

[Delenda Carthago]

Well they've beaten up workers,
Lies. The only workers there were the PAME unions. Not a single other union went into the fight. And PAME was defending itself.
I double dare you to name ONE other union that was into that fight. If you dont, I call you a liar.



defended bourgeois institutions,Never.


'accidentally' cooperated with fascists, Never.


and cried over Kim Jong-Il's deathKKE defended the right of NK to determine its own future, away from "humanistic" atacks of imperialists. Do you disagree with that?


It's beyond me how people can continue to defend them.Maybe its because unlike you, they know what KKE is.


Ultimately, their connection to the bourgeois state and left-liberals has turned them towards reformism.I double dare you to prove it. Here (http://inter.kke.gr/News/2009news/18congres-resolution-2nd)and here (http://inter.kke.gr/News/2010news/2009-09-16-political-resolution)it is the last congress, and here (http://inter.kke.gr/) are the positions. Name the reformism. If you dont, I call you a liar.




The KKE is unsalvageable at this point, much like the post-war SPD. There needs to be a new revolutionary party to really serve the interests of the workers, as opposed to the liberals and reformists like the KKE, but there doesn't seem to be much of a vacuum for one at the moment.Maybe its because we dont have a strong workers movement. Ow, wait...

[brigadista]

at least people in Greece are organising - they are in a coma here...

[W1N5T0N]

@Delenda Carthago
anyone who defends NK's policies or "right to self determination" e.g. right to public mass-starvation is clearly not in their right fucking mind and should not be elected.
NK's policies are some of the most anti-working class in the world. by supporting its policies, you are supporting more anti-working class politics. This isnt about "Imperialist humanists", its about a fucking loony state.


so yeah, if thats KKE stance, fuck the KKE.

[Delenda Carthago]

at least people in Greece are organising - they are in a coma here...
And what do you do about it?

[thriller]

While my views on the KKE and PAME are not that positive, it always raises my spirits to see that many red flags raised high in the street.

[No_Leaders]

Nice seeing so many workers on the streets, that does make my heart smile. Although i do question KKE's motives, they've always been pretty questionable. But none the less, glad to see so many workers mobilized on the streets.:)

[PhoenixAsh]

KKE has already one civil war in its back and wont stop in front of another.


They also have at least one working class betrayal causing many deaths and executions in their backs. What exactly is your point here? And as it turns out they DID stop in that civil war you mentioned.

And wasn´t it you who argued a few months back that the KKE did not want to occupy parliament for FEAR of getting the military involved and risking civil war? Or was that one of the other KKE supporters?




Yesterday an ex neoliberal prime minister declared that "KKE cannot be legal and illegal at the same time" and that it should slow down because they might send it to being outlaw again. The answer of the party was

"Mr. Mitsotakis knows what he says. He shows that the system knows its main opponent, the main opponent, the Communist Party, which organizes the struggles of workers, their confidence in themselves and to their right. Besides, Mr. Mitsotakis has said before and ever, that the Communist Party can not put it in his hand, not bought, does not succumb, not interested in glamorous locations and above all interested in serving the people.

Mr. Mitsotakis for the second time tells the truth from his own perspective, of course, against the Communist Party, telling the truth."

The communists didnt back down in the fascist dictatorship of Metaxas, didnt backed down to the Nazi Occupation, didnt in the Civil War, didnt in White Terrorism, didnt in the years of Junta, and wont in the future. The only place in the mothafuckin world that the militancy of KKE is questioned, is in Revleft.

Well lets see about this civil war. Wasn't it the OPLA that assassinated Trotskyists, Anarchists, Left-communists, non Aligned marxists and other who did not agree with the KKE etc ?? I mean...how much more evidence do you need of what the KKE really is?


And offcourse then they signed the seize fire agreement the betrayal of Varkiza.....and suggest people and party members would oppose armed government thugs by other means than fighting and violence. Which offcourse resulted in the deaths of thousands.... more than 100.000 to be precise.

[Ravachol]

While my views on the KKE and PAME are not that positive, it always raises my spirits to see that many red flags raised high in the street.

History shows that the red flag can be waved against the red flag. I don't think the KKE has anything to offer but a different mask for Capitalism, I don't think they're qualitatively different from any other bourgeois party and history will show that. But I agree with Psycho and others here that just going into a thread like this and making a drive-by shot at the KKE serves no real purpose, KKE-supporters derailing all opposite threads would be a nuisance as well, it's a discussion forum after all. Delenda Carthago didn't really make a discussion topic but just said "we had a rally, it was fairly big, we claim to hold no illusions about elections but participate in them". That's fine, we can disagree with many of those claims, ranging from how well-rooted the KKE is in the working class to questioning how telling participation in these elections actually is, or what the KKE plans to do after it is seated comfortable in parliament and has to co-manage the bourgeois state.

Those are all valid questions in a topic such as this. Similarly, in a topic on the recent february 12th riots one could ask "what purpose does this serve? Is this going to contribute to a general level of militancy? Does it alienate people? How does this contribute to a praxis of direct expropriation? Etc." whilst stereotypical Stalinist responses like 'blahblah the great masses, blahblah hooded provocateurs' would be bullshit.

[Ravachol]

KKE has already one civil war in its back and wont stop in front of another.

The communists didnt back down in the fascist dictatorship of Metaxas, didnt backed down to the Nazi Occupation, didnt in the Civil War, didnt in White Terrorism, didnt in the years of Junta, and wont in the future. The only place in the mothafuckin world that the militancy of KKE is questioned, is in Revleft.

You know that this is bullshit, be realistic. The KKE doesn't have the (para)military structures nor any sizable amount of militants with urban guerrilla experience to wage any kind of serious armed opposition to the state. The closest thing to militant, confrontational experience that exists within the ranks of the KKE is the security squads like those of PAME and to be honest I've never seen them engage in confrontation other than with anarchists, confrontations which were (however hefty) mere scuffles in the end.

In addition to that, the general line taken by the KKE is one of passive 'resistance', with a primary focus on trade-unionist industrial action, elections and static rallies. This produces a certain kind of militant and most definitely not one ready, capable or even willing to engage in a civil war.

As for not backing down, during the post-Metaxas years the Treaty of Varkiza shows something else after the Dekemvriana and during the civil war loyalty to Moscow (with Stalin condemning the Greek civil war for nationalist, bourgeois geopolitical reasons and suggesting the DSE should disband) also meant abandoning the war effort coupled with a purge of suspected Titoists cumulating in a cease-fire turned surrender. The defeat was initially political, not military.

I don't know if you honestly believe the KKE is capable or willing (which they are neither) to engage in armed struggle against the state, but I sure hope you don't for your own sake...

[The Douche]

Delenda, do you really think its wise to brag about KKEs actions in the civil war and during the junta? Is that going to be your playbook if it happens again? Will you inform on your former comrades in AK and the other anarchist groups, will you pull the trigger yourself?

[Delenda Carthago]

They also have at least one working class betrayal causing many deaths and executions in their backs. What exactly is your point here? And as it turns out they DID stop in that civil war you mentioned.
My point is that KKE has a history and a present that you should recognize.



And wasn´t it you who argued a few months back that the KKE did not want to occupy parliament for FEAR of getting the military involved and risking civil war? Or was that one of the other KKE supporters?
The dialectics of the flies. If someone judges that not anytime is the time to attack and other things are needed at the moment, is against the attack in general. How much more anarchist can you be?



Well lets see about this civil war. Wasn't it the OPLA that assassinated Trotskyists, Anarchists, Left-communists, non Aligned marxists and other who did not agree with the KKE etc ?? I mean...how much more evidence do you need of what the KKE really is?

The only evidence here is that you talk trash on a subject that you dont know shit about. OPLA was in the nazi occupation, not in the civil war. go play with something you actually know.



And offcourse then they signed the seize fire agreement the betrayal of Varkiza.....and suggest people and party members would oppose armed government thugs by other means than fighting and violence. Which offcourse resulted in the deaths of thousands.... more than 100.000 to be precise.

That was, again, before the civil war, after the nazis left the country. And at least, they got up to Varkiza. The Trots that you are defending(cause there were no anarchists back then in Greece), were calling EAM...nationalist and asking for its destroy because it took the arms against the nazis, while nazi soldiers being their "class brothers". When people like Velouhiotis and Beloyannis took the arms against the nazis, they were haning leaflets! And they gonna speak about Varkiza? Which btw was indeed a mistake and KKE said characteristicaly "Never the weapons down again"? Please...

[Delenda Carthago]

Delenda, do you really think its wise to brag about KKEs actions in the civil war and during the junta? Is that going to be your playbook if it happens again? Will you inform on your former comrades in AK and the other anarchist groups, will you pull the trigger yourself?
Gladly!

Seriously, where the hell do you read greek history from? 9gag? What did KKE done in civil war and Junta that was against what anarchists? The first anarchists were shown in Greece after the Junta by students that studied in France all these years!

[Delenda Carthago]

You know that this is bullshit, be realistic. The KKE doesn't have the (para)military structures nor any sizable amount of militants with urban guerrilla experience to wage any kind of serious armed opposition to the state.

Things of course havent reach to that point yet. But that doesnt mean that they never will.


The closest thing to militant, confrontational experience that exists within the ranks of the KKE is the security squads like those of PAME and to be honest I've never seen them engage in confrontation other than with anarchists, confrontations which were (however hefty) mere scuffles in the end.
Because PAME doesnt fight the cops in Syntagma, they fight them in working places. In factories when they guard strikes, in ports, etc.




As for not backing down, during the post-Metaxas years the Treaty of Varkiza shows something else after the Dekemvriana and during the civil war loyalty to Moscow (with Stalin condemning the Greek civil war for nationalist, bourgeois geopolitical reasons and suggesting the DSE should disband) also meant abandoning the war effort coupled with a purge of suspected Titoists cumulating in a cease-fire turned surrender. The defeat was initially political, not military.
Υou have come closer to historical truth than the other idiots, but still...

After Metaxas there was the Nazi Occupation. After the nazis left, there was Varkiza, after Varkiza there was the Civil War. The fact that CPUSSR did not aproved the strategic line of KKE did not stopped it, because unlike other puppys, Nikolas Zachariadis was never a yes man, even to Stalin which they had very good relations.

The fact that you dont even mention the intervention of both England and USA in the civil war(Greece's c.w. was the first time that napalm bombs were used) shows that you dont know the story very well...


I don't know if you honestly believe the KKE is capable or willing (which they are neither) to engage in armed struggle against the state, but I sure hope you don't for your own sake...

Once again, someone from another country seems to know better. Ok...

[PhoenixAsh]

My point is that KKE has a history and a present that you should recognize.

We do recognize that history....as dangerous to the working class and revolutionary struggle.



The dialectics of the flies. If someone judges that not anytime is the time to attack and other things are needed at the moment, is against the attack in general. How much more anarchist can you be?


So explain to me why just barely 8 months later this is now the right time? After all you brought up civil war as an argument for the KKE.



The only evidence here is that you talk trash on a subject that you dont know shit about. OPLA was in the nazi occupation, not in the civil war. go play with something you actually know.

The OPLA was active in the Athens uprising in 1944....sparking off the stuggle in Athens against the Papandreou government....subsequently it remained active during the civil war untill well after 1948.

So how does it feel to be owned on your own parties history?




That was, again, before the civil war, after the nazis left the country. And at least, they got up to Varkiza. The Trots that you are defending(cause there were no anarchists back then in Greece), were calling EAM...nationalist and asking for its destroy because it took the arms against the nazis, while nazi soldiers being their "class brothers". When people like Velouhiotis and Beloyannis took the arms against the nazis, they were haning leaflets! And they gonna speak about Varkiza? Which btw was indeed a mistake and KKE said characteristicaly "Never the weapons down again"? Please...

Eh no. Actually Dekemvriana sparked off the civil war and is generaklly regarded as the immediate prrelude to it.

Those Trotskyists were part of the EAM and ELAS during WWII. A nice attempt again to try to blame shift. Also nice to note that you focus solely on Trotslyists....out of all the numerous groups the OPLA and DSR targetted and assassinted.

But after the treaty of Varkiza the KKE refused to authorise resistance to the right wing thugs that killed thousands of former EAM and ELAS fighters and attacked, butchered and raped villages that had previously supported the partisans. They REFUSED to allow armed struggle and they even cast out those who DID argue for armed stuggle and self defence initiatives.

What is more they also refused to assist in people escaping to Yugoslavia and building weapon cashes by hiding their weapons instead of relinguiishing them.

So do NOT start about how valiant the KKE was during those days. They betrayed the people....their own people. And they cast out everybody from their ranks opposed to the treaty and its consequences.

[Delenda Carthago]

Those Trotskyists were part of the EAM and ELAS during WWII.
Nuff said...

[PhoenixAsh]

Nuff said...

Yes..

either that during the entire occupation the KKE collaboarted with these, as you call them, traitors.

OR

That the KKE ordered the assassination of radical left wing comrades to further their own political aspirations.

So what is your point here....that you are either wrong or wrong? And the KKE is either highly suspicious or highly suspicious? Because you make no sense here.

[Ravachol]

And they gonna speak about Varkiza? Which btw was indeed a mistake and KKE said characteristicaly "Never the weapons down again"? Please...

So, "never lay down the weapons again!", then were are these arms dumps of the KKE? Where is their armed wing? Where was the KKE regarding the case of 17N? Where are they now for the comrades of Epanastatikos Agonas? At the very least, when is the last time the KKE or one of it's sattelite organisations engaged the state in confrontation? Don't talk about a militancy that doesn't exist.


Gladly!

Seriously, where the hell do you read greek history from? 9gag? What did KKE done in civil war and Junta that was against what anarchists? The first anarchists were shown in Greece after the Junta by students that studied in France all these years!

Errrr http://www.marxists.org/subject/greek-civil-war/revolutionary-history/stinas/memoirs.htm


Things of course havent reach to that point yet. But that doesnt mean that they never will.


When will they reach that point, in 20 years perhaps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years)? :rolleyes:

A party as authoritarian and disciplined as the KKE would have ordered directions to 'build the red army' long ago if they ever seriously considered that. One only needs to look to the whole spectrum of Maoist groups to see that when serious considerations are given to that option, it is put into practice immediately. The pre-civil war KKE had military capacities long before armed struggle was on the agenda, the current KKE doesn't simply because it never plans on 'taking things that far', no matter how muscular the language might be now.



Because PAME doesnt fight the cops in Syntagma, they fight them in working places. In factories when they guard strikes, in ports, etc.


They never engage them, they (at most) defend their strike of limited duration. Again, this is not a basis for the kind of militant that engages in a fucking civil war .....



Υou have come closer to historical truth than the other idiots, but still...

After Metaxas there was the Nazi Occupation. After the nazis left, there was Varkiza, after Varkiza there was the Civil War. The fact that CPUSSR did not aproved the strategic line of KKE did not stopped it, because unlike other puppys, Nikolas Zachariadis was never a yes man, even to Stalin which they had very good relations.


Pointing out the chronological order doesn't contradict what I said, Varkiza was post-Metaxas...

And it's irrelevant whether Zachariadis was a yes-man, the choice he faced was maintaining good relations with Moscow (at the price of losing YSR support and virtually kissing the war effort goodbye) or relying fully upon Tito's YSR (and receiving continued military and logistical support), a political choice which would have soured the relations with Moscow and one he didn't take. Loyalty to Moscow meant losing the material support upon which the DSE relied and effectively shutting down the war effort, whether you like it or not.



The fact that you dont even mention the intervention of both England and USA in the civil war(Greece's c.w. was the first time that napalm bombs were used) shows that you dont know the story very well...


I know very well about the British and USA involvement in the civil war, about the 'mountain governement',etc. I don't see how that was relevant to my argument however. I was making a point, not telling a story.



Once again, someone from another country seems to know better. Ok...

Quit your nationalist bullshit, you sound like a USSR caricature from a cartoon "The western imperialist dog-traitors know nothing about our great motherland!" :rolleyes:

I asked you to substantiate the claims you make, simply pointing out I'm not Greek (disregarding the fact that I know plenty of Greek comrades) doesn't do that.

[The Douche]

Gladly!

Seriously, where the hell do you read greek history from? 9gag? What did KKE done in civil war and Junta that was against what anarchists? The first anarchists were shown in Greece after the Junta by students that studied in France all these years!

Off the top of my head, how about Constantinos Speras? The syndicalist killed by KKE partisans in the mid 40s?

[gorillafuck]

Off the top of my head, how about Constantinos Speras? The syndicalist killed by KKE partisans in the mid 40s?nonetheless, what anarchist groups are you talking about during the civil war and junta?:confused


Quit your nationalist bullshit, you sound like a USSR caricature from a cartoon "The western imperialist dog-traitors know nothing about our great motherland!" :rolleyes: what he said was not nationalist.

[Delenda Carthago]

Yes..

either that during the entire occupation the KKE collaboarted with these, as you call them, traitors.

OR

That the KKE ordered the assassination of radical left wing comrades to further their own political aspirations.

So what is your point here....that you are either wrong or wrong? And the KKE is either highly suspicious or highly suspicious? Because you make no sense here.
Or these trots did not partisipate in EAM and to say something like that shows that you dont know ANYTHING about greek history and I m not in the mood to teach history from class One.

[Delenda Carthago]

Off the top of my head, how about Constantinos Speras? The syndicalist killed by KKE partisans in the mid 40s?
You mean the one that turned fascist and snitched on partisans? Bad Bad KKE.

Here you can see an article he wrote in a nationalsocialist newspaper.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5474/img190customo.jpg

Also, you can name a couple of other anarcosyndicalists like Mahairas or Kiouktsoglou. That doesnt mean that there were anarchists...

[Delenda Carthago]

So, "never lay down the weapons again!", then were are these arms dumps of the KKE? Where is their armed wing?
Seriously, wtf? You cant be serious right now.



Where was the KKE regarding the case of 17N? Where are they now for the comrades of Epanastatikos Agonas? At the very least, when is the last time the KKE or one of it's sattelite organisations engaged the state in confrontation? Don't talk about a militancy that doesn't exist.Seriously? You are taking "guns" out of context and you compare massive partisan armies,deeply rooted to the people with some pityfull desperados? Like, really?



Errrr http://www.marxists.org/subject/greek-civil-war/revolutionary-history/stinas/memoirs.htm
You know the phrase "real recognise real"? What if we have a snitch on that case? Stinas was the trots I mentioned that called for the destruction of "nationalist" EAM because it was messing with the collaboration with our class brothers, the nazi soldiers. And if that is not enough to show you how silly mentioning that scum is, lets see about his book in wikipedia.

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%86%CE%B3%CE%B9%CF%82_%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%BD% CE%B1%CF%82


Αντίθετα το βιβλίο του ΕΑΜ-ΕΛΑΣ-ΟΠΛΑ έχει δεκτεί κριτική για την εγκυρότητα του"On the contrary the book of his, EAM-ELAS-OPLA has accepted criticism about its validity" :lol:





A party as authoritarian and disciplined as the KKE would have ordered directions to 'build the red army' long ago if they ever seriously considered that. Why dont you go out and preach the nessesity of building a red army? Go to your co-workers and convince them, then recruit more and more and then just overthrow capitalism and lets all just live in communism happily ever after. I mean, you make it look like its so simple, its a pitty nobody thought of it yet...



One only needs to look to the whole spectrum of Maoist groups to see that when serious considerations are given to that option, it is put into practice immediately. Maoists rebel groups. The perfect example of how to be a serious organisation. It only takes a couple of dozen of people that descided to save the people(without the need of convinsing them, cause you gonna do it for them right?) and BAM! here it is! Why cant KKE be like that godamned?:unsure:




The pre-civil war KKE had military capacities long before armed struggle was on the agenda, the current KKE doesn't simply because it never plans on 'taking things that far', no matter how muscular the language might be nowOf course they had. It was the one that resisted the Nazi Occupation like no other people in Europe.



They never engage them, they (at most) defend their strike of limited duration. Again, this is not a basis for the kind of militant that engages in a fucking civil war .....You know what? Maybe you should not preach to your own country. Maybe you should come and convince people here. If its so easy, lets do this man! I m down!



Pointing out the chronological order doesn't contradict what I said, Varkiza was post-Metaxas...Today is post- Metaxas too. And in 150 years, it would still be post-Metaxas.


And it's irrelevant whether Zachariadis was a yes-man, the choice he faced was maintaining good relations with Moscow (at the price of losing YSR support and virtually kissing the war effort goodbye) or relying fully upon Tito's YSR (and receiving continued military and logistical support), a political choice which would have soured the relations with Moscow and one he didn't take. Loyalty to Moscow meant losing the material support upon which the DSE relied and effectively shutting down the war effort, whether you like it or not.The fact that Tito is known to greek communists as a back stabber because he let the National Army to go through his territory to surround DSE, is obviously false. You should tell us about it.






Quit your nationalist bullshit, you sound like a USSR caricature from a cartoon "The western imperialist dog-traitors know nothing about our great motherland!" :rolleyes: As I have said a thousand times before, people need to know who they are and what they know.I know a couple of things about India too, but I would never insist in a conversation with an indian whether naxalites or the CPI (M) are right or wrong. That goes for all the countries. Its healthy to have an opinion on things. But to insist on some issues that the other person lives it in its everyday life while you only know it like encyclopedia knowledge, is foul. You cant tell me for example that you know KKE better than me. For me its a living experience for my whole life(from living in a society that this party exists and simply per say watching it on the TV to living it from the inside), to you best occasion something that people spoke to you about a couple of times. I m sorry, but if I ever speak to you about your country and your experiences like I know better, please check my ass and put me in my position.

[RedPersonality]

Delenda Carthago in a such hostile enviroment for KKE you are doing a very good job!Keep up the good work!!

[Thirsty Crow]

I don't think discussion such as this one is really productive. It's people shouting at each other.
But when, and if, the necessity for the party in question to participate in a bourgeois government becomes a reality - as it might become after the elections taking place today - then it will be interesting to see whether positions conerning this problem will shift.
Though, I suspect that all sorts of word play can be summoned in defense of even the most obvious class collaboration.

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't think discussion such as this one is really productive. It's people shouting at each other.
But when, and if, the necessity for the party in question to participate in a bourgeois government becomes a reality - as it might become after the elections taking place today - then it will be interesting to see whether positions conerning this problem will shift.
Though, I suspect that all sorts of word play can be summoned in defense of even the most obvious class collaboration.

To my knowledge, the KKE has stated it will not participate in any coalition cabinet.

As for the discussion. Is the history of the KKE really relevant for the future?

[pluckedflowers]

To my knowledge, the KKE has stated it will not participate in any coalition cabinet.


Even with other radical leftist parties, right? What is their reasoning for this?

[Welshy]

Even with other radical leftist parties, right? What is their reasoning for this?

Their reasoning should be fairly obvious from some of the articles Delenda Carthago posted from the KKE's website about the European Left Party. Here is a link to a recent post http://www.revleft.com/vb/example-denmark-policies-t171234/index.html

I'm not going to comment on the rest of the KKE issues, but being unwilling to form a government (even with other left groups) is definitely a positive, IMO.

[Tim Finnegan]

Insofar as it means the KKE can keep on cosplaying 1930s Germany and thus maintain our supply of lulz, I suppose.

[Sasha]

So how did electoral strategy work out for you? 1.5% more than the Nazi's... could have better burned the pairlement down after all...

[miserable]

edit

[PhoenixAsh]

Or these trots did not partisipate in EAM and to say something like that shows that you dont know ANYTHING about greek history and I m not in the mood to teach history from class One.

Dude....you were already proven wrong in your knowledge on Greek history and the history of the KKE...your denial that OPLA played a part in the civil war was downright wrong. So getting a history lesson on the Greek situation from you is like getting lessons in communist theory from Glen Beck.


Also I would like to point out that I predicted months ago that Golden Dawn would be about as big as the KKE...something which you consistantly rejected as being possible..and look what happened in the elections. :)

So...as far as being Greek and being on the spot go for being able to predict and accurately portray what is going to happen....welll.....

A big :P :P :P :P :P

[Delenda Carthago]

So how did electoral strategy work out for you? 1.5% more than the Nazi's... could have better burned the pairlement down after all...
To bad it wasnt 1,5% under the nazis to make you more happy.

[Delenda Carthago]

Even with other radical leftist parties, right? What is their reasoning for this?
Τhere ain no "radical leftist parties". SYRIZA is a European Left reformist party and so is Democratic Left. The working class has no interest joining forces with them.

[Delenda Carthago]

Also I would like to point out that I predicted months ago that Golden Dawn would be about as big as the KKE...something which you consistantly rejected as being possible..and look what happened in the elections.


Ι seriously dont remember this, and I find it kinda weird to believe that I said that "a lil while ago". If you can find it, please do.

[No_Leaders]

I beg to differ Delenda. There were anarchists for awhile, actually Greece has an interesting anarchist history. During the early 1900's Marinos Antypas was largely credited with leading the struggle to liberate Greek peasants from post-Ottoman feudalism. Also the anarchist Alexandros Schinas assassinated the Greek King George I in Thessaloniki. Let's see what else... during the 1930's Greek anarcho-syndicalists participated in many workers struggles and wildcat strikes and end up collaborating with the Communists who's hit squads assassinated influential anarchists. Oh and let's not forget during the Civil War how the KKE Communist squads continued to assassinate or purge anarchists, trotskyists, and other communists and dissidents. We could always go to modern times too, and talk about how KKE members liked to lock the universities while anarchists and youths were trying to get inside to escape police during the 2008 insurrection. How about how KKE sided with the government and police telling everyone who was on the streets to go back to work and stop the insurrection, they called on the government to crack down.. They tried to de-mask anarchsits (nothing new) and physically confront and beat them.

[Delenda Carthago]

I beg to differ Delenda. There were anarchists for awhile, actually Greece has an interesting anarchist history. During the early 1900's Marinos Antypas was largely credited with leading the struggle to liberate Greek peasants from post-Ottoman feudalism. Also the anarchist Alexandros Schinas assassinated the Greek King George I in Thessaloniki. Let's see what else... during the 1930's Greek anarcho-syndicalists participated in many workers struggles and wildcat strikes and end up collaborating with the Communists who's hit squads assassinated influential anarchists.
Thats the thing. You know all the anarchists by their names. Antypas, Schinas, Mahairas, etc. There were no massive anarchist movement like there was in France or Spain.

[Tim Cornelis]

Τhere ain no "radical leftist parties". SYRIZA is a European Left reformist party and so is Democratic Left. The working class has no interest joining forces with them.

Then how do you explain that SYRIZA is more popular than the KKE amongst the working class?

[Delenda Carthago]

Then how do you explain that SYRIZA is more popular than the KKE amongst the working class?
Its not. But thats not the interesting thing. The interesting thing is why some "too revolutionary for radio" forumists prefer to treat SYRIZA with more tenderness and friendship than KKE. Obviously to some the dictatorship of the Capital is a better choise than the dictatorship of the proletariat. You put a nice "left" mascara to capitalism and you are ready to party!

[Tim Cornelis]

Its not.

Yes it is. Or all those who votes for the SYRIZA CEOs, millionaires, and owners of capital? SYRIZA is more popular amongst the working class, and so is POSAK.

[QUOT]But thats not the interesting thing. The interesting thing is why some "too revolutionary for radio" forumists prefer to treat SYRIZA with more tenderness and friendship than KKE. Obviously to some the dictatorship of the Capital is a better choise than the dictatorship of the proletariat. You put a nice "left" mascara to capitalism and you are ready to party![/QUOTE]

Well obviously, SYRIZA is a reformist party, that's indisputable.

[Tim Finnegan]

Its not. But thats not the interesting thing. The interesting thing is why some "too revolutionary for radio" forumists prefer to treat SYRIZA with more tenderness and friendship than KKE. Obviously to some the dictatorship of the Capital is a better choise than the dictatorship of the proletariat. You put a nice "left" mascara to capitalism and you are ready to party!
Now, why is it that you're capable of showing such healthy scepticism towards parties like SYRIZA while showing a blinkered, almost childish naivety when it comes to the KKE? The cognitive dissonance is really quite astounding.

[Delenda Carthago]

Yes it is. Or all those who votes for the SYRIZA CEOs, millionaires, and owners of capital? SYRIZA is more popular amongst the working class, and so is POSAK.

Vast majority of them are petit bourgeois, a "class" that in my country has huge size for a 21st century EU economy. The support of the w.c. itself its beign showned in the syndicates, where PAME is a giant and Autonome Intervention(SYN's syndicate section)is twice smaller and has a long history of collaborating with PASKE and DAKE(PASOK's and ND's syndicates) and signing of wage cuts.

But even if so, the fact that a majority can vote for someone doesnt mean its their best interest. The USA majority of workers vote for Obama, is that their best interest?

[PhoenixAsh]

Τhere ain no "radical leftist parties". SYRIZA is a European Left reformist party and so is Democratic Left. The working class has no interest joining forces with them.

But apparantly they did get the message accross that they would have interest in them...that is the point we are making here...

Massive numbers of the Greek working class voted either for Nazi's or Syriza....and not the KKE who barely did better than in the previous elections. And seeing how dire the economic situation is...that is kind of telling, to say the least. It should be a huge wke up call for the KKE and its membership.

So what is your analysis why the KKE failed to persuade the working class?

[Delenda Carthago]

But apparantly they did get the message accross that they would have interest in them...that is the point we are making here...

Massive numbers of the Greek working class voted either for Nazi's or Syriza....and not the KKE who barely did better than in the previous elections. And seeing how dire the economic situation is...that is kind of telling, to say the least. It should be a huge wke up call for the KKE and its membership.

So what is your analysis why the KKE failed to persuade the working class?
SYRIZA imported a very big part of PASOK's mechanism. From MPs to big political managers, to syndicalists. It also mentioned many times the "good old PASOK" of Andrew Papandreou. It promised to the people that it will make it all alright with just a vote and that they gonna convinse KKE to do a "goverment of the Left"(something that KKE denys to do for over a year).

KKE on the other hand, promised to the people that its not going to save them byitself, and that there needs to be struggles in order to get out of this mess. Plus, it was going to a brand new direction that the people never knew, not only socialism but the prossesed proposition of KKE based on the experiences and the mistakes of the "existed socialism" in the 20th century.


If you add to all these the attack KKE got through the media(for example they took KKE saying about "People's Power" and that the people should be the authority in the country, not KKE, and were saying that KKE "does not want to govern blah blah blah" something that freaked a lot of people in the last week) you get a picture.

So the easiest thing for an ex-PASOK voter to do, was to go to SYRIZA. The fact that people prefered the illusions Tsipras sold to them dont mean nothing but he have to wait until this bubble pops. Revolution is a long road.This was just another stop to it.

Of course that doesnt mean that there are no responsibilities in KKE that should be adressed... But thats something that takes long conversations within the party.

[PhoenixAsh]

The problem is that the KKE is not building up to revolution but has been geared up for elections more than anything else. So far the KKE seems to go from bubble to bubble without actually taking initiative... just stalling and saying "now is not the right time"....and that is not a good position for any revlutionary party.

The reason why SYRIZA sold their message better is because of the discongrenuity between the KKE message and what the KKE are actually doing.

So far the KKE has been merely posturing....and what is more the KKE exclusively focusses on workplace and union gathering and actions. Not on actions in communities or support of actions of the unemployed. It continuously refuses to support local and induvidual initiaves that take place all over Greece. If it doesn't fly under the KKE/PAME banner the KKE doesn't give it a second glance.

That makes people weary. And that is where KKE differs from SYRIZA....because SYRIZA does this. THey are reformist without a doubt...but they are winning on the mere fact that they pretend to at least care.

The refusal of the KKE to cooperate with other revolutionary parties and their downright hostile and disparaging stance against these groups and parties also plays very well into the hands of the existing burgeoisie because, like we all argued before, this devides the working class political movements.

Those are the reasons KKE failed in the latest elections.

NOT because of burgeoisie propaganda. Not becuse of adoptation of PASOK mechanics. Those are all external factors which are easilly overcome by community work and actully showing the opposite.

So far the KKE has talked the talk but refused to walk the walk.

People don't vote for parties like that and they do not follow parties like that.

And that is exactly what the election results show.

[Delenda Carthago]

This patern "You saying things with a curtainty like you live them everyday and always correcting me" is getting kinda boring. The fact that you are undermining the work in workplaces tells everything to anyone that cares.

[Per Levy]

Originally Posted by Delenda Carthago

The working class has no interest joining forces with them.


Originally Posted by Goti123
Then how do you explain that SYRIZA is more popular than the KKE amongst the working class?


Originally Posted by Delenda Carthago
Its not.

allright, if syriza pasok and so on are mostly voted for by petit bourgeoisie and not workers, then why is the kke turnout so low? or are we to belive that the workers are a small minority in greece who have not much voting power. or did most workers stay at home and didnt attend the elections(then the above statements would make some sense)?

[Tim Cornelis]

But even if so, the fact that a majority can vote for someone doesnt mean its their best interest. The USA majority of workers vote for Obama, is that their best interest?

I'm not saying this at all, I'm just saying that the claim that the working class does not support SYRIZA is ridiculous.


Vast majority of them are petit bourgeois

So according to you the vast majority of those who voted for SYRIZA is petite-bourgeois. How much is "the vast majority"? I'd imagine that would be circa 75 percent. If that's correct then every single capitalist in Greece voted for SYRIZA.

7,3% of Greece's population (10,000,000) is an entrepreneur. (http://www.internationalentrepreneurship.com/total-entrepreneurial-activity/) Therefore, there are circa 730,000 entrepreneurs (includes both petite- and haute-bourgeoisie) while 1,051,094 people voted for SYRIZA.

[PhoenixAsh]

This patern "You saying things with a curtainty like you live them everyday and always correcting me" is getting kinda boring. The fact that you are undermining the work in workplaces tells everything to anyone that cares.

The fact that only 9% voted for KKE tells you this. I am just translating it for you....as much as I am paraphrasing the official KKE website.

85% of the Greeks work in the service industry. That usually should be a huge signal that focussing solely on classic work place strikes and organisation is maybe perhaps very limited in perspective and orientation...

Especially when it is specifically the classical factory and large workplace sectors that are hit the hardest by unemploment and large scale lay offs.

Which is why KKE barely did any better than 4 years ago in todays elections.

Naturally somebody who loses, because that is what the KKE actually did inspite of the marginal gains they made, is inclined to focuss on outside reasons to place the blame. You can blame government propaganda....However this isn't constructive.

What do you think happens in EVERY revolution to this date? Evrery revolutionary group was faced with serious government repression (a lot more so than the KKE faces these days) and counter propaganda on a massive scale.....to hear you use these arguments as an excuse on why the KKE did poorly makes me wonder how on earth there could have ever been a succesful revolution in the first place. Especially considering that these revolutions always took place in the face of extreme repressive violence and people getting shot, arrested and ridiculed left and right.

So no....external factors are not answers which are satisfactory,

You know as well as I do that the Greek crisis is far broader in scope than the workplace...and that that is only a small part of what is happening in Greece. The KKE offers an answer for a small part of the people who need answers and ignores and even disparages the largest part of the proletarian class who do not have jobs or who are forced to operate outside of the workplace. Who do want to organise events but are not part of unions and do not wish to be part of unions. And therein lies the weakness of the KKE...at least a part of it (because there are numerous other factors we can name).

KKE has disassociated itself from a large number of Greeks who are radicalising by focussing solely on the work place. By focussing on rethorics instead of actions and even by acting contrary to their rethorics.

This is not new information. Many users have been saying this for months.

You may find it boring. But what is actually very boring is the Ostrich position you are taking. You stick your head in the sand when it comes to criticism directed towards the KKE and seem to blindly toe the party line.

Which is a second reason why everybody else is to blame except the KKE. Because that is the usual KKE position on just about everything. Whenever the KKE can not realise something it is the fault of agent provocateurs, of the "hooded state operatives". These excuses are getting stale and old. If the KKE is so easilly disrupted by outside forces then the party does not have legitimacy to exist in its current form or under its current leadership. The party is weak. And as such it is perceived by the electorat. And that is why the electorate, enmasse, choses time and time again not to vote for the KKE.

[JAM]

Partido Comunista Português (portuguese communist party)- social-democratic (4th place in elections)


I just saw this now. It was supposed to be funny?

PCP was one of the few European Communist Parties to reject Eurocommunism and even expelled some members (Zita Seabra who migrated for a liberal party and others) who tried to implement it in the party in the late 80's. Perhaps you made confusion with the Spanish Communist Party which embraced Eurocommunism.

Taking in consideration that you are Portuguese I'm really surprised by your comment.

Marxism-Leninism is still the main pillar of the party and I can assure you that will continue that way. The party will never abdicate from its main principles for electoral reasons as other communist parties did with Eurocommunism.

[Tim Finnegan]

Marxism-Leninism is social democracy.

[Zulu]

The USA majority of workers vote for Obama, is that their best interest?

The problem is the majority of workers in the USA are not proletarians. They are part of the global middle class living of the "dividends" the capitalists share with them from the over-exploitation of the global proletariat all over the world.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

The problem is that the KKE is not building up to revolution but has been geared up for elections more than anything else. So far the KKE seems to go from bubble to bubble without actually taking initiative... just stalling and saying "now is not the right time"....and that is not a good position for any revlutionary party.

The reason why SYRIZA sold their message better is because of the discongrenuity between the KKE message and what the KKE are actually doing.

So far the KKE has been merely posturing....and what is more the KKE exclusively focusses on workplace and union gathering and actions. Not on actions in communities or support of actions of the unemployed. It continuously refuses to support local and induvidual initiaves that take place all over Greece. If it doesn't fly under the KKE/PAME banner the KKE doesn't give it a second glance.

That makes people weary. And that is where KKE differs from SYRIZA....because SYRIZA does this. THey are reformist without a doubt...but they are winning on the mere fact that they pretend to at least care.

The refusal of the KKE to cooperate with other revolutionary parties and their downright hostile and disparaging stance against these groups and parties also plays very well into the hands of the existing burgeoisie because, like we all argued before, this devides the working class political movements.

Those are the reasons KKE failed in the latest elections.

NOT because of burgeoisie propaganda. Not becuse of adoptation of PASOK mechanics. Those are all external factors which are easilly overcome by community work and actully showing the opposite.

So far the KKE has talked the talk but refused to walk the walk.

People don't vote for parties like that and they do not follow parties like that.

And that is exactly what the election results show.
Right, the KKE is not going to be a revolutionary force as it is now constituted -- if there is a revolutionary upsurge in Greece, which is certainly a possibility at this point, the KKE will likely split -- the subjective revolutionaries in the group will move left -- and hopefully find their way to a revolutionary program capable of fighting for the D of the P in Greece. The criticisms of Syriza are all quite valid, but the idea of the KKE as a revolutionary force as it is currently constituted is delusional.

[Zulu]

Marxism-Leninism is social democracy.

How so? Lenin & the Bolsheviks officially broke up with the social democracy in 1917.

[Per Levy]

How so? Lenin & the Bolsheviks officially broke up with the social democracy in 1917.

lenin was not a marxist-leninist.

[Zulu]

lenin was not a marxist-leninist.

oh yeah we know, he was a trotskyist...

But let's not derail the tread.

[Tim Finnegan]

How so? Lenin & the Bolsheviks officially broke up with the social democracy in 1917.
And Lenin broke with Bolshevism in 1921.

[Geiseric]

And Lenin broke with Bolshevism in 1921.

How did Lenin break with Bolshevism by 1921? Wasn't that when the Civil War and the economic depression at its height, and when farmers were threatening to starve the cities if they couldn't sell their food for profit?

[Tim Finnegan]

One-man management, militarisation of labour, work-or-starve policies, alliance with anti-communists in Turkey, China, etc., alliance with centrists in Germany, Britain, etc., repression of anarchists, repression of the Workers' Opposition, repression of free soviets, repression of trade unions, repression of factory councils.


(And look, I didn't even have to say "NEP" or "Kronstadt".)

[JAM]

One-man management, militarisation of labour, work-or-starve policies, alliance with anti-communists in Turkey, China, etc., alliance with centrists in Germany, Britain, etc., repression of anarchists, repression of the Workers' Opposition, repression of free soviets, repression of trade unions, repression of factory councils.


(And look, I didn't even have to say "NEP" or "Kronstadt".)

And this is social-democracy for you?

[Omsk]

Marxism-Leninism is social democracy.


This pearl speaks enough about him.Do not pay attention.

[Tim Finnegan]

And this is social-democracy for you?
If you think it isn't, I'm be happy to hear you out.

[TheMyth]

Exactly, I will give examples with portuguese parties:

Partido Socialista (socialist party)- social-democratic(ish) (oposition)

Partido Social-Democrata (social-democratic party)- neo liberal (won the elections)

Partido Comunista Português (portuguese communist party)- social-democratic (4th place in elections)

Centro Democratico Social- Partido Popular (democratic social centrist- people's party) - conservative (3rd place)

Partido Ecologista (we just call them "verdes" or greens)- you can guess

Bloco de esquerda (leftist bloc) - Some form of socialism (gets the less votes)


You can only be from Bloco because you should know that Cunhal kicked out Zita seabra and all other revisionists like MDP/CE who reject the URSS Past like the dead Miguel Portas with is Reformer Communism that lead to the creation of Politics XXI.
I think you should know better since your party is a mix of everything and only wanted to get votes from PCP .

PCP and PCTP/MRPP are the only ones to represent the working Class .

[NoPasaran1936]

That's nice, how about you steer away from electoral politics and concentrate on the working class communities and inspiring revolution rather than evolution.

[Tim Finnegan]

PCP and PCTP/MRPP are the only ones to represent the working Class .
Did the working class ask to be "represented"?

[TheMyth]

Did the working class ask to be "represented"?

Yes . It was because all the fights against capitalism in XIX that lead the creation of Syndicates wich will represent the working class among with the partys

[JAM]

If you think it isn't, I'm be happy to hear you out.

I could be here and give you all the theoretical differences between Marxism-Leninism and Social-Democracy but I'll easy things by giving practical examples. Compare any modern social-democracy of today with the USSR. Do you think that the two systems are the same?

[Tim Finnegan]

I can't think of any contemporary states that I would describe as "social democratic", so I'm afraid that I can't answer that.

[JAM]

I can't think of any contemporary states that I would describe as "social democratic", so I'm afraid that I can't answer that.

You have multiple examples in Europe. The Scandinavia countries are the best model of social-democracy in my opinion. Try to keep some seriousness in this discussion.

[Tim Finnegan]

I draw a distinction between social democracy and simple welfarism. The former involves the extensive socialisation of both labour and capital, something that emerges only in specific historical circumstances, while the latter simply represents a partial socialisation of labour, something found to one extent or another in all capitalist societies, if only in the form of systematic charity. To confuse welfarism with social democracy is to confuse the rhetorical form of the governing part with the social content of the state.

[Crux]

You have multiple examples in Europe. The Scandinavia countries are the best model of social-democracy in my opinion. Try to keep some seriousness in this discussion.
Are? I think that is a very dubious argument to make, given that since the early 1990's neo-liberalism and cutback has been the rule of the day in all scandinavian countries regardless if the social democrats have been in power or not. So in essence the social-democrats of today are the neo-liberals of yesterday. As for the "marxist-leninist" I'd argue that for the most part they have represented some kind of radical social democracy, in the more classical sense of the term. Their relation to the USSR is about eqvivalent to the relationship between the modern day social-democrats of the traditional wellfare state, i e it's a rhetorical tool but it lacks content.

[JAM]

I draw a distinction between social democracy and simple welfarism. The former involves the extensive socialisation of both labour and capital, something that emerges only in specific historical circumstances, while the latter simply represents a partial socialisation of labour, something found to one extent or another in all capitalist societies, if only in the form of systematic charity. To confuse welfarism with social democracy is to confuse the rhetorical form of the governing part with the social content of the state.

No, you are confusing liberalism with social democracy. If you call the Welfare State "systematic charity" you are lowering yourself to the most ugly and disgusting vocabulary of right-wingers who want to demolish the Welfare state. Universal Health Care is not charity for instance. The Welfare state is one of the mains pillars of social-democracy accompanied by other elements as the state ownership in a major part of a country's economy.

A huge part of Norway's economy is nationalized (heavy state-ownership in strategic areas of the economy) so you have "extensive socialization of both labor and capital" there.

[JAM]

Are? I think that is a very dubious argument to make, given that since the early 1990's neo-liberalism and cutback has been the rule of the day in all scandinavian countries regardless if the social democrats have been in power or not. So in essence the social-democrats of today are the neo-liberals of yesterday. As for the "marxist-leninist" I'd argue that for the most part they have represented some kind of radical social democracy, in the more classical sense of the term. Their relation to the USSR is about eqvivalent to the relationship between the modern day social-democrats of the traditional wellfare state, i e it's a rhetorical tool but it lacks content.

It has been some cutback, no doubt about it, but the main pillars of social-democracy remain there, don't they? I think so.

[Tim Finnegan]

No, you are confusing liberalism with social democracy. If you call the Welfare State "systematic charity" you are lowering yourself to the most ugly and disgusting vocabulary of right-wingers who want to demolish the Welfare state. Universal Health Care is not charity for instance.
I said that systematic charity can represent a form of socialised labour, not that the welfare state is charity.


The Welfare state is one of the mains pillars of social-democracy accompanied by other elements as the state ownership in a major part of a country's economy.As I said: "extensive socialisation of both labour and capital".


A huge part of Norway's economy is nationalized (heavy state-ownership in strategic areas of the economy) so you have "extensive socialization of both labor and capital" there.The Scandinavian countries represent an unusually high level of socialised capital, yes, but the majority of supposedly "state-owned" industry is in fact partial state-ownership of publicly-listed companies, rather than nationalisation along social democratic lines.

[JAM]

The Scandinavian countries represent an unusually high level of socialised capital, yes, but the majority of supposedly "state-owned" industry is in fact partial state-ownership of publicly-listed companies, rather than nationalisation along social democratic lines.

The state owns the majority of the share percentage so it's technically owned by the State and you had full nationalization of some industries by Social-Democratic States in recent past. I can give you Portuguese examples if you want but I don't think it's necessary.

Look, there's no need to extend this arguing for much longer so I'm gonna give it to you one basic theoretical distintion between Socia-Democracy and Marxism-Leninism which you can't simple ignore it:

While Social-Democracy advocates a gradual reform of institutions, Marxism-Leninism advocates an immediate revolution to transform the institutions. Is this enough for you?

You also know why the split between social-democrats and communists happened in 1914, don't you? That little thing about the World War I when the Germany Social-Democratic Party pronounced favorably to the war while the communists were against it...

[Tim Finnegan]

While Social-Democracy advocates a gradual reform of institutions, Marxism-Leninism advocates an immediate revolution to transform the institutions. Is this enough for you?
No, for two reasons.

Firstly, the "revolutionary transformation" you talk about is not in fact revolutionary, it's just a grand program of reform-through-nationalisation. The law of value remains, the market remains, wage labour remains, alienated labour remains, capital remains, class society remains; the entire apparatus of capitalism remains in place, just with a red flag and a few cheery portraits of Stalin licking beetles or whatever it is he does in those things. All Stalinism offers is the socialisation of capital and the corporatisation of industrial relations, the same program offered by the social democrats.

Secondly, it's not actually true. Marxist-Leninists accommodated themselves very happily to reformism in the 1940s, which is why the post-war "people's democracies" all represented a "mixed economy" in which major or infrastructural industries were nationalised and minor ones kept in private hands, essentially in the manner proposed by interwar manifestos of the British Labour Party or German Social Democrats. Only with the demise of the Soviet Union have you reverted to this "revolution or GTFO" stance, and that's only possible because you're now so irrelevant that you can say what you like and nobody cares.


You also know why the split between social-democrats and communists happened in 1914, don't you? That little thing about the World War I when the Germany Social-Democratic Party pronounced favorably to the war while the communists were against it...If the most significant difference that you can think of between social democracy and Stalinism is their attitude towards inter-imperialist wars, then you're really just affirming my claims.

[JAM]

No, for two reasons.

Firstly, the "revolutionary transformation" you talk about is not in fact revolutionary, it's just a grand program of reform-through-nationalisation. The law of value remains, the market remains, wage labour remains, alienated labour remains, capital remains, class society remains; the entire apparatus of capitalism remains in place, just with a red flag and a few cheery portraits of Stalin licking beetles or whatever it is he does in those things. All Stalinism offers is the socialisation of capital and the corporatisation of industrial relations, the same program offered by the social democrats.

You call a revolution of reform? Have you already counted how many blunders you said in a single thread? Look, I already talked about Russian Revolution of 1917 with many political opponents (including anarchists) and none of them ever denied the revolutionary character of it...until now.

You understand now why some people say that is useless to argue with you like Omsk did? I should have listened him but I didn't hoping to have a reasonable discussion with you but I am realizing that it's impossible.

Anyway, I'll give you another
try: The Marxists-Leninists advocates the DOTP and the Social-Democrats don't. It's enough now?

PS: Trying to compare Stalin's program with the Social-Democratic one is astonishing. Please don't repeat this and preferably edit it not for me but for yourself, otherwise it will be embarrassing for you if people see that.




Secondly, it's not actually true. Marxist-Leninists accommodated themselves very happily to reformism in the 1940s, which is why the post-war "people's democracies" all represented a "mixed economy" in which major or infrastructural industries were nationalised and minor ones kept in private hands, essentially in the manner proposed by interwar manifestos of the British Labour Party or German Social Democrats. Only with the demise of the Soviet Union have you reverted to this "revolution or GTFO" stance, and that's only possible because you're now so irrelevant that you can say what you like and nobody cares.Here are you again. I can't believe in what I am reading. Do you know the difference between a mixed economy and a planned economy? Google it if you want and see the difference. I can give you practical examples if you want: Mixed Economy- Norway and other European Countries, Planned Economy- USSR and Eastern Bloc.



If the most significant difference that you can think of between social democracy and Stalinism is their attitude towards inter-imperialist wars, then you're really just affirming my claims.No, it's not the most significant but it was the base of the division in 1914 and must receive attention for that. After what I red from you I am really surprised that you didn't come up with something like the Bolsheviks pronouncing favorably towards the war and the tsarist victory.


Edit. Just a quick note: the USSR never finished its revolutionary path. Nobody ever argued that USSR achieved communism.

[Tim Finnegan]

Y'know, it would have been a lot quicker to write "I am incapable of thinking outside of the narrow bounds of my laughably anachronistic dogma!", because that's all you've actually managed to say. Who gives a fuck what you "advocate" or if you call your reformism "revolution", when in their concrete actions Stalinists have never shown themselves to represent anything more radical than Kautskyism by the bayonet, if that. Even the KKE, who you all drool over in quite an embarrassing fashion, has as its ultimate horizons the government of a bourgeois welfare state, with a Politburo of self-declared "professional revolutionaries" that's barely changed in decades and MPEs tucked up in Brussels alongside such luminaries of revolutionary socialism as Sinn Fein and Die Linke.

Your entire tendency is a bad joke; there is simply nothing else to say.

[JAM]

Y'know, it would have been a lot quicker to write "I am incapable of thinking outside of the narrow bounds of my laughably anachronistic dogma!", because that's all you've actually managed to say. Who gives a fuck what you "advocate" or if you call your reformism "revolution", when in their concrete actions Stalinists have never shown themselves to represent anything more radical than Kautskyism by the bayonet, if that. Even the KKE, who you all drool over in quite an embarrassing fashion, has as its ultimate horizons the government of a bourgeois welfare state, with a Politburo of self-declared "professional revolutionaries" that's barely changed in decades and MPEs tucked up in Brussels alongside such luminaries of revolutionary socialism as Sinn Fein and Die Linke.

Your entire tendency is a bad joke; there is simply nothing else to say.

No? How about: Ok, I was wrong and I was just proven wrong by a guy who is " incapable of thinking outside of the narrow bounds of his laughable anachronistic dogma!"?

Regarding KKE, I never pronounced myself about it and you are already confusing me with another users. I didn't take a look at KKE political program so it wouldn't be correct to make any kind of statements about it but I can speak you about my party if you want, The Portuguese Communist Party.

[Tim Finnegan]

Regarding KKE, I never pronounced myself about it and you are already confusing me with another users. I didn't take a look at KKE political program so it wouldn't be correct to make any kind of statements about it but I can speak you about my party if you want, The Portuguese Communist Party."I don't support X back of laughable Brezhnevite weirdos, I support Y pack of laughable Brezhnevite weirdos!"

[JAM]

"I don't support X back of laughable Brezhnevite weirdos, I support Y pack of laughable Brezhnevite weirdos!"

Why you say that? Do you know better than me the Political Program of PCP?

[Tim Finnegan]

Do you know the book of Genesis better than a Christian creationist? Probably not, but you know enough to tell him that he's wrong.

[JAM]

Are you implying that all Communist Parties are the same? You're wrong about that as well. I don't know if you know this but some European Communist Parties embraced the revisionist theory called "Eurocommunism" (most notably the Spanish Communist Party) which is truly Social-Democracy while others (The Portuguese one for instance) rejected it and continued committed to Marxism-Leninism. My intervention in this thread began precisely here, stressing this difference.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm aware of that, yes. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have described the PCP as "Brezhnevite", but instead found some more appropriately denigrating term.

[JAM]

I'm aware of that, yes. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have described the PCP as "Brezhnevite", but instead found some more appropriately denigrating term.

When your argumentation resumes to finding denigrating terms says it all about it...

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm not arguing, I'm insulting you.

[JAM]

I know. That's what people who lost an argument usually do.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'd like to say that I didn't "lose", I just got bored, but you'd probably take that as further proof of my "lost". And, honestly? You can have that if it means something to you. I can't say that I have anything invested in these squabbles. http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/images/smilies/smiley_shrug.gif

[JAM]

I just got bored

That is another thing that people who lost an argument also usually do: they don't admit that lost of course unless we are talking about someone with some humility to recognize it but instead say that got bored or tired of arguing.

Look, you say that you got bored but count how many times you already posted here since we stopped arguing.

[Tim Finnegan]

I said I got bored of arguing, not bored of poking you.

[JAM]

I said I got bored of arguing, not bored of poking you.

So you got bored of arguing but not of poking me? Hey, that's a troll thing, what trolls usually do. You just reveled yourself, TROLL.;)

Instead of being just a loser you are now a troll loser.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Who gives a fuck what you "advocate" or if you call your reformism "revolution", when in their concrete actions Stalinists have never shown themselves to represent anything more radical than Kautskyism by the bayonet, if that.

I don't know how to take this attempt at a baseless insult.


Firstly, the "revolutionary transformation" you talk about is not in fact revolutionary, it's just a grand program of reform-through-nationalisation. The law of value remains, the market remains, wage labour remains, alienated labour remains, capital remains, class society remains; the entire apparatus of capitalism remains in place, just with a red flag and a few cheery portraits of Stalin licking beetles or whatever it is he does in those things. All Stalinism offers is the socialisation of capital and the corporatisation of industrial relations, the same program offered by the social democrats.

The corporatization of industrial relations is by no means revolutionary, but sorry, the instant or rapid "socialization of capital" is by no means reformist. There can be no transition to the communist mode of production without at least rapid "socialization of capital," this coming from a former subscriber to state-capitalist "theories."