Is The Class Struggle Real?

[Book O'Dead]

What's your personal opinion regarding the 'class struggle'?

Is it real, imaginary, or what?

If it's real, how would you define it using your own words?

Where does it originate and how does it end, if at all?

Where do you place yourself within the class struggle as a person? How does it affect you? How does it affect your family?

Those are just a few questions that come to mind. Feel free to explore this topic but not obligated to answer any of the above questions.

[Railyon]

Ever fought with your boss over wages? Ever took the day off?

Class struggle right there.

It is very real. It is inherent in the system even, because of conflicting class interests which are in a constant tug-of-war. A better question is why class struggle as a political mass phenomenon has apparently lost its fire.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Of course it is real.

[Book O'Dead]

Of course it is real.

What makes you so sure?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

What makes you so sure?

What Railyon said.
Those things are happening everyday, everywhere. That is what makes me so sure.

[Registered User]

What makes you think its fake?

[Book O'Dead]

Ever fought with your boss over wages? Ever took the day off?

Class struggle right there.

It is very real. It is inherent in the system even, because of conflicting class interests which are in a constant tug-of-war. A better question is why class struggle as a political mass phenomenon has apparently lost its fire.

I have taken many days off and yes, fought with my employer over wages, benefits, etc. But, in my mind none of that is necessarily proof of anything other than that I'm tired of working, need more cash or any other personal grievance I might have.

If you advocate the existence of the class struggle as a social phenomenon, you must, I believe, come up with a lot more than that.

[Book O'Dead]

What makes you think its fake?

What makes you think I think its 'fake'?

Hey, we could go on all day like this, but for the moment, we should assume as little about each other as possible and try to rely on what each one of us actually thinks is true.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

What makes you think I think its 'fake'?

Hey, we could go on all day like this, but for the moment, we should assume as little about each other as possible and try to rely on what each one of us actually thinks is true.

You asked if its real, so you must at least think it could be fake.
So explain what you think could be fake so someone can explain,or not, why it is true.

[Book O'Dead]

What Railyon said.
Those things are happening everyday, everywhere. That is what makes me so sure.

Okay, but anecdotal evidence can only take us so far.

I need someone to convince me regarding its existence and origin with more substantive explanations; all for the sake of argument and--who knows?--enlightenment.

[Aurora]

This is rather an odd thread. Class struggle isn't something unique to Marxism the capitalists openly fought their revolutions on class grounds and even today they acknowledge it, although they usually think they've won.

'The class war is over and we have won it.'
-- Harold Macmillan, 1959
'The class war is over.'
-- Tony Blair, 1999
'There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.'
-- Warren Buffett, 2006
'Class warfare is over, working people lost.'
-- Dennis Kucinich, 2009

I believe most people would acknowledge that people have different interests based on their material status. Workers having higher wages means capitalists have less profit and workers having lower wages means capitalists have more profit, people act in their own interests so it's inevitable that workers and capitalists will have different politics, antagonistic politics in fact.

Anyway if you want to learn about class struggle learn about revolutions because that's where it all comes to a head.

[Book O'Dead]

You asked if its real, so you must at least think it could be fake.
So explain what you think could be fake so someone can explain,or not, why it is true.

Okay, you're right.

Let's assume that I simply cannot wrap my head around the whole concept of the class struggle. Or that its particulars are just too repugnant for my delicate sensibilities.

How would you go about convincing me that such a thing exists? How does one prove the existence of something as seemingly abstract as the class struggle?

[Book O'Dead]

This is rather an odd thread. Class struggle isn't something unique to Marxism the capitalists openly fought their revolutions on class grounds and even today they acknowledge it, although they usually think they've won.

'The class war is over and we have won it.'
-- Harold Macmillan, 1959
'The class war is over.'
-- Tony Blair, 1999
'There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.'
-- Warren Buffett, 2006
'Class warfare is over, working people lost.'
-- Dennis Kucinich, 2009

I believe most people would acknowledge that people have different interests based on their material status. Workers having higher wages means capitalists have less profit and workers having lower wages means capitalists have more profit, people act in their own interests so it's inevitable that workers and capitalists will have different politics, antagonistic politics in fact.

Anyway if you want to learn about class struggle learn about revolutions because that's where it all comes to a head.

IOWs you're suggesting that I look back upon history and, in particular, the history of past revolutions to understand the class struggle?

Not bad. Incomplete perhaps, but not bad...

[Railyon]

Let's assume that I simply cannot wrap my head around the whole concept of the class struggle. Or that its particulars are just too repugnant for my delicate sensibilities.

How would you go about convincing me that such a thing exists? How does one prove the existence of something as seemingly abstract as the class struggle?

Well, first one would have to prove classes exist. Do you have a basic idea of marxist analysis of capitalism or do you want to have it explained to you?

Once you have classes established as a concept, the rest flows from that; each class has an interest on its own, which regularly conflict with each other. For example, my taking the day off example. Capital seeks to expand its grip on surplus labor time as a means to keep growing and valorizing itself; meanwhile, workers want to diminish the grip of capital over their time (the fight for the 10 and then 8 hour day is an excellent example of this struggle over working hours and class struggle in general).

That is essentially the idea: conflicting class interests, and "political" class struggle is the systemic class struggle taken to new heights, made manifest in political struggle.

[Book O'Dead]

Well, first one would have to prove classes exist. Do you have a basic idea of marxist analysis of capitalism or do you want to have it explained to you?

Once you have classes established as a concept, the rest flows from that; each class has an interest on its own, which regularly conflict with each other. For example, my taking the day off example. Capital seeks to expand its grip on surplus labor time as a means to keep growing and valorizing itself; meanwhile, workers want to diminish the grip of capital over their time (the fight for the 10 and then 8 hour day is an excellent example of this struggle over working hours and class struggle in general).

That is essentially the idea: conflicting class interests, and "political" class struggle is the systemic class struggle taken to new heights, made manifest in political struggle.

Suppose I fully identify with my employer's 'class interests' --whatever that means, where would be the struggle, where the conflict?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Suppose I fully identify with my employer's 'class interests' --whatever that means, where would be the struggle, where the conflict?

That would make you a bourgeois sympathizer.
- - - - - -
The struggle is real: strikes, occupations, and battles for collective bargaining have all proven that the working class is clearly fighting against another force which is attempting to take away the small pittance they have.Wisconsin would be a good example of this: the bourgeoisie assaulted the working class by stripping them of unions and the working class revolted by issuing a general strike.

One example among many.

[Railyon]

Suppose I fully identify with my employer's 'class interests' --whatever that means, where would be the struggle, where the conflict?

Class struggle would still exist as it is a social phenomenon - one person dropping out of it by acting against his class interests does not eliminate it on a larger scale.

Yes, the "struggle" would cease, however it would not do anything about your exploitation, the source of class conflict.

[Book O'Dead]

That would make you a bourgeois sympathizer.
- - - - - -
The struggle is real: strikes, occupations, and battles for collective bargaining have all proven that the working class is clearly fighting against another force which is attempting to take away the small pittance they have.Wisconsin would be a good example of this: the bourgeoisie assaulted the working class by stripping them of unions and the working class revolted by issuing a general strike.

One example among many.

Sure. But I've heard elsewhere that such confrontations are the result of base envy stirred up among the masses by malcontents and 'losers', as the Rev. Donald Trump likes to call them.

[Railyon]

Sure. But I've heard elsewhere that such confrontations are the result of base envy stirred up among the masses by malcontents and 'losers', as the Rev. Donald Trump likes to call them.

That does not contradict our view of it which sees exploitation as the source of class struggle, actually.

It gets ridiculous once you get to the Misean notion of socialism being purely "envy for those that made it". No, it's not fucking envy for no reason, dude... Where has their wealth come from?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Sure. But I've heard elsewhere that such confrontations are the result of base envy stirred up among the masses by malcontents and 'losers', as the Rev. Donald Trump likes to call them.

That is the bourgeois excuse and is not logical ("Scientific") in anyway,manner,or form.The working class is not envious,or infiltrated by malcontents, but they know when they are clearly being attacked and as such will fight back.

If someone broke into your house and stole all your belongings then your efforts to get them back surely wouldn't be justified by being labeled as a malcontent, right?

[MarxSchmarx]

The "class struggle" basically just describes the process we as a society go through to determine how wealth gets apportioned. Some fraction goes to the bourgeoisie as profit, another fraction to labor, still another fraction to maintenance of capital, etc... Because these destinations are mutually exclusive, the class struggle is in essence the sum of social mechanisms that determine who gets how much of what.