Not talking about politics

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I have noticed in a lot of posts here on revleft people saying they don't talk about politics, I talk about anarchism all the time, so I have managed to get 3 people interested and 1 turned anarchist.
If you don't talk about your political philosophy how are you going to achieve revolution, you need people to know the alternatives to capitalism in order to end it, if you don't tell them how are they to know?

I tell people about anarchism, I criticize authoritarianism, and I spread propaganda.

In conclusion I am an activist: once in history class my teacher said that portugal after the 1974 revolution became a democratic country, I laughed and explained why it was not democratic and that true democracy is rule of the people; when my math teacher spoke about the school system I did a critic of it and explained that it could be made much better; When some of my fellow students were doing a presentation they had made about telecommunications and they said that globalization could spread capitalism, I of course knew that if they said that was because it was written online, so I asked what capitalism was, they could not answer and I was then envited by the teacher to explain, so I managed to explain capitalism, anarchism and socialism that day to the whole class.


You should follow my example and become activists.

[Per Levy]

so I managed to explain capitalism, anarchism and socialism that day to the whole class.

i hope you explainnation was better then "comment 52 explains everything". besides that your understanding of anarchism and socialism might be somewhat faulty, judging from the discussions with you about that topic on here.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

i hope you explainnation was better then "comment 52 explains everything". besides that your understanding of anarchism and socialism might be somewhat faulty, judging from the discussions with you about that topic on here.

Trust me I explained it well, I explained that the system of the Soviet Union was not socialism and that anarchism and communism are similar, and that capitalism is bad for your health.

EDIT: Post #52 does explain something, I don't know what it is, but I am pretty sure it explains it; you guyd were saying that anarchism was a tendency of socialism, I needed a break to explain why it was not in another thread, so I came up with "read post #52 it explains everything" to keep you guys distracted whille I was making the other thread.

[honest john's firing squad]

This.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=7720

This is not activism.

[honest john's firing squad]

^On the other hand, one could say that is actually a perfect parody of "activism".

[TheRedAnarchist23]

How is it not activism, it is better than not talking about politics and "having a life".

[honest john's firing squad]

How is it not activism, it is better than not talking about politics and "having a life".
talking smack in math class doesn't make you an activist

[TheRedAnarchist23]

talking smack in math class doesn't make you an activist

Not doing anything to achieve revoltion and calling oneself a revolutionary doesn't either.

Whille you are "having a life" I am contributing towards revolution by telling people about anarchism, if you can't do even that then you are not a revolutionary

[NorwegianCommunist]

That's really cool.
I would like to do the same sometimes =)
Almost all of my friends are not interessted in politics so it's really hard to bring it up sometimes.
I also don't feel I know enough about communism to explain it to several people at once or an entire class, it's also a little bit taboo to bring up communism in my school for some reason :/

[Bronco]

I wouldn't blow your own trumpet too much, there's a lot more to activism than doing a bit of playground preaching and having the odd rant in a maths lesson, that isn't how you're gonna bring about a revolution

[honest john's firing squad]

Not doing anything to achieve revoltion and calling oneself a revolutionary doesn't either.
You and I share something in common, then. The spread of ideology, and the mere persistence of pro-revolutionaries does as much for revolution as sitting in your armchair eating cheetos, only the latter is actually enjoyable and consequently advisable.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

You and I share something in common, then. The spread of ideology, and the mere persistence of pro-revolutionaries does as much for revolution as sitting in your armchair eating cheetos, only the latter is actually enjoyable and consequently advisable.

You are an idiot, telling people about anarchism is what makes more anarchists, if all revolutionaries taught their philosophies to others, then revolution would happen soon, you not talking about politics are the cause of inexistance of revolution, do you expect people to just come up with communism and figguring out how it is going to work without the help of others!?

You are doing what the government and capitalists want you to do: stay quiet and work for their profit.

[Tim Finnegan]

You are an idiot, telling people about anarchism is what makes more anarchists, if all revolutionaries taught their philosophies to others, then revolution would happen soon, you not talking about politics are the cause of inexistance of revolution, do you expect people to just come up with communism and figguring out how it is going to work without the help of others!?
With any luck.

[honest john's firing squad]

if all revolutionaries taught their philosophies to others, then revolution would happen soon
Flagrant idealism.


You are doing what the government and capitalists want you to do: stay quiet and work for their profit.
Now if someone actually stopped work and participated in industrial action, that would be revolutionary. Putting up posters at school doesn't hurt the boss one bit.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm going attempt to carve some sort of middle ground and say that I don't think that there's anything wrong this sort of propagandising, but that building it all around grand ideals is going to lead you down a dead end. You might get the attention of a few people who are naturally sympathetic to your politics, but that's about it. It's a bit of fun, I don't disagree, a subversive wink to those who know what's up, but ultimately nothing more than that. (Personal confession time: when I'm bored, I write anti-capitalist slogans on money. It doesn't achieve a damn thing, but it makes me feel good to know that, at some point, somebody else will see that and get it. It's a coping mechanism, a way of dealing with the frustration of life under capitalism; valid within those terms, but nothing more than them.)

Instead, try to address more immediate, concrete issues concerning your student body and local area. Things that people are aware of, and they will have considered if only briefly. That helps them to realise that these are more general concerns, that they are not alone in realising that X, Y or Z is bullshit, that other people share their frustrations or disillusionment; in short, it can help open up a space, however small, for subversive communalities to emerge.

Revolution, y'see, doesn't become because people have all decided that it would be a good idea, but because daily life has become intolerable to them. This means that the role of radicals isn't to enlighten, but to push the situation to that sort of breaking point, and that means addressing concrete, everyday issues. The grand abstractions come later, as and when it's appropriate for them to do so.

[Left Leanings]

Now if someone actually stopped work and participated in industrial action, that would be revolutionary. Putting up posters at school doesn't hurt the boss one bit.

Hey. Hang on a minute. Go on easy on the young comrade. He is in school still. It's kind of hard to take industrial action, when you're not yet in the workforce.

Everyone has to start somewhere. And talking to others about your politics and propagandizing, does have its part to play.

Hopefully this guy will go on and take up the struggle as he leaves school, becomes a student, joins the workforce.

At least he is enthusiastic. Perhaps one day he will be one such worker who downs tools, goes on strike, and mounts the barricades....

[The Idler]

I'm going attempt to carve some sort of middle ground and say that I don't think that there's anything wrong this sort of propagandising, but that building it all around grand ideals is going to lead you down a dead end. You might get the attention of a few people who are naturally sympathetic to your politics, but that's about it. It's a bit of fun, I don't disagree, a subversive wink to those who know what's up, but ultimately nothing more than that. (Personal confession time: when I'm bored, I write anti-capitalist slogans on money. It doesn't achieve a damn thing, but it makes me feel good to know that, at some point, somebody else will see that and get it. It's a coping mechanism, a way of dealing with the frustration of life under capitalism; valid within those terms, but nothing more than them.)

Instead, try to address more immediate, concrete issues concerning your student body and local area. Things that people are aware of, and they will have considered if only briefly. That helps them to realise that these are more general concerns, that they are not alone in realising that X, Y or Z is bullshit, that other people share their frustrations or disillusionment; in short, it can help open up a space, however small, for subversive communalities to emerge.

Revolution, y'see, doesn't become because people have all decided that it would be a good idea, but because daily life has become intolerable to them. This means that the role of radicals isn't to enlighten, but to push the situation to that sort of breaking point, and that means addressing concrete, everyday issues. The grand abstractions come later, as and when it's appropriate for them to do so.
Revolution happens precisely because people have decided that it would be a good idea. Daily life is intolerable to many and has been for a long time. Without talking about what revolution is for, people aren't gonna make it, especially if you focus on concrete everyday issues. Reformists can always talk better about concrete everyday issues. Keep up the good work TheRedAnarchist23.

Hey. Hang on a minute. Go on easy on the young comrade. He is in school still. It's kind of hard to take industrial action, when you're not yet in the workforce.

Everyone has to start somewhere. And talking to others about your politics and propagandizing, does have its part to play.

Hopefully this guy will go on and take up the struggle as he leaves school, becomes a student, joins the workforce.

At least he is enthusiastic. Perhaps one day he will be one such worker who downs tools, goes on strike, and mounts the barricades....
Perhaps if he listens to advice like this topic, he will join the workforce, forget the grand abstractions, limit his aspirations to strikes for higher wages/better working conditions and sink to trade union consciousness and fulfill Lenin's claim that this is all workers are capable of.

[Tim Finnegan]

Revolution happens precisely because people have decided that it would be a good idea. Daily life is intolerable to many and has been for a long time. Without talking about what revolution is for, people aren't gonna make it, especially if you focus on concrete everyday issues. Reformists can always talk better about concrete everyday issues. Keep up the good work TheRedAnarchist23.
When I say "intolerable", I literally mean "cannot be tolerated", I don't just mean "really shit". People are obviously tolerating capitalism, or they'd have offed themselves years ago.

Revolution happens when, for whatever reason, they refuse to go on as they have been doing, and the impossible contradiction between the present state of things and their rejection of the present state of things drives them towards the remaking of things. It does not happen when you distribute your ten millionth pamphlet full of arcane jargon and vague haranguing. Whether that comes with a big basket of Marxist theory or with nothing but frustration and gut instinct is, in the most fundamental sense, a coincidence of history.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I would talk more about my politics but I am a shy person by nature and chatting about revolutionary situations kinda takes me out of my comfort zone. I do what I can in writing though: during my ENG101 class I incorporated socialism into every essay and made quite the impression on my teacher.

[Ostrinski]

Political activists generally seem like insecure people that do their deeds out of a misplaced sense of self-righteousness.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Political activists generally seem like insecure people that do their deeds out of a misplaced sense of self-righteousness.

How so? Examples? Also, are you referring to revolutionary activists or liberal activists?

[Left Leanings]

Revolution happens precisely because people have decided that it would be a good idea. Daily life is intolerable to many and has been for a long time. Without talking about what revolution is for, people aren't gonna make it, especially if you focus on concrete everyday issues. Reformists can always talk better about concrete everyday issues. Keep up the good work TheRedAnarchist23.

Perhaps if he listens to advice like this topic, he will join the workforce, forget the grand abstractions, limit his aspirations to strikes for higher wages/better working conditions and sink to trade union consciousness and fulfill Lenin's claim that this is all workers are capable of.

Hey. I'm not suggesting for one minute that he should forget the 'grand abstractions'. Note my comment on mounting the barricades.


I have no time for trade unions per se. The senior officials of unions are a privileged layer between capital and workers, and are essential for the smooth running of capitalism.

As workers, we can and must, do it for ourselves, by mass collective action and overthrowing capital's machine. I don't look to either political parties or trade unions to win reforms for us. We create the wealth. The ruling class and the trade union bosses need us. We sure as hell don't need them.

[Ostrinski]

Idk they just act like they're the vanguard of some struggle against the man. basically any kind of activist

[hatzel]

Heeeeey who remembers this (http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm)...?

[Pretty Flaco]

who cares about ideology? most people dont give a fuck. change occurs from class struggle. not from obscure leftist groups writing essays and telling a few friends about what they read in some book.

[pastradamus]

who cares about ideology? most people dont give a fuck. change occurs from class struggle. not from obscure leftist groups writing essays and telling a few friends about what they read in some book.

I've made that argument many times in the past and its one I still consider to be true. I joined the trade union movement from the age of 20 (even though I was a leftist long before this and ofter joined in on political protests and Socialist party meetings in Ireland) as I found (and still do) it appaling that the labour court in Ireland has no power, ie, that a labour court recommendation in favour of the employer is legally binding but one against the employer is not. In other words he/she/they can decide to either not go along with the labour court - and thus not pay, or they can pay and avoid the bad press and PR they recieve. Strangely I find its always the big companies that pay up.

Back to your original point, there is a mass campaign here in Ireland of Non-payment of the new introductory household charges, Which means a well-off individual will pay the same as a working class person in a tax for the property they own. This has been introduced and pushed through the Government by the IMF. I went to two huge meetings concerning this and all the left united to fight this off. Anarchists, Socialist Party, Socialist Workers Party, Workers Party, Independants, Trade Unions - with one Union refusing to allow its workers to collect the tax upon non-payment. But generally it was normal everyday, non-political people that were fighting this and Its all positive stuff, and these political groups have had arguments in the past but thankfully this is all behind them now and the people are really hearing them for once and this is all because of a sense of unity amongst the left in Ireland. Hopefully other leftist groups around the world can look at this and stop fighting each other and work for the Common good for once.

[pastradamus]

Hey. I'm not suggesting for one minute that he should forget the 'grand abstractions'. Note my comment on mounting the barricades.


I have no time for trade unions per se. The senior officials of unions are a privileged layer between capital and workers, and are essential for the smooth running of capitalism.

As workers, we can and must, do it for ourselves, by mass collective action and overthrowing capital's machine. I don't look to either political parties or trade unions to win reforms for us. We create the wealth. The ruling class and the trade union bosses need us. We sure as hell don't need them.

There are unions out there that detest what you speak of. YES I agree with you that most trade unions have become corrupt but there is a new wave of Unions that dont adhere to the principles of some former corrupt umbrella.

[The Idler]

BTW, capitalism is intolerable now if you look at statistics on deaths due to hunger and malnutrition. But without ideas, its just food riots.

[Tim Finnegan]

BTW, capitalism is intolerable now if you look at statistics on deaths due to hunger and malnutrition. But without ideas, its just food riots.
And yet people tolerate it. So we can only conclude that your usage of the term "intolerable" is not intended descriptively, but polemically, and that is simply not the same thing.

[28350]

Heeeeey who remembers this (http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm)...?

Or these?
http://libcom.org/library/militancy-ojtr
www.lettersjournal.org/moss.html

[Hermes]

And yet people tolerate it. So we can only conclude that your usage of the term "intolerable" is not intended descriptively, but polemically, and that is simply not the same thing.

But regardless if it is literally tolerable or not, without the idea that there is an alternative, the majority of people will not ascribe the problem to capitalism, especially in the United States. They will view the problem as the president, and will believe that their votes will help, etc. Or will simply riot/strike for wages and not anything greater.

I think this is what he was trying to say, at least. I'm probably not a great interpreter.

[Tim Finnegan]

But regardless if it is literally tolerable or not, without the idea that there is an alternative, the majority of people will not ascribe the problem to capitalism, especially in the United States. They will view the problem as the president, and will believe that their votes will help, etc. Or will simply riot/strike for wages and not anything greater.
Well, take the Paris Commune. How many of the worker there ascribed their problems to an abstract capitalism? They certainly had anti-capitalist sentiments, but they were concrete ones, a resentment of this boss and of these monopolists and this practice, the sort of thing that drove them to concrete actions. Attributing your problems to a grand and abstract The System doesn't imply that you'll do anything more than vote for a left-wing social democrat, as was the case when the majority of card-carrying socialist workers in Germany 1919 saw a revolution unfolding before their eyes and did nothing.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I have no problem with agitatation in itself, but one should remember it changes little in the grand scheme of things.
Talking about politics can just be so insufferably boring, especially with people who have no clue on what you are talking about.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I have no problem with agitatation in itself, but one should remember it changes little in the grand scheme of things.
Talking about politics can just be so insufferably boring, especially with people who have no clue on what you are talking about.

Which is why you have to tailor your language to where they are in life.Put it in terms they can understand. I would recommend reading some Pedagogy of the Oppressed as that book has to deal with teaching people under their own terms.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Which is why you have to tailor your language to where they are in life.Put it in terms they can understand. I would recommend reading some Pedagogy of the Oppressed as that book has to deal with teaching people under their own terms.
Of course. For any kind of conversation to work there has to be a common understanding. I don´t indulge in marxist terminology when I generally talk about politics. That´s not the problem. It´s more that a lot of people are so stuck in bullshit mythologies about social reality it´s a waste of time talking to them about it.

[Manic Impressive]

Well, take the Paris Commune. How many of the worker their ascribed their problems to an abstract capitalism? They certainly had anti-capitalist sentiments, but it was a concrete one, a resentment of this boss and of these monopolists and this practice, the sort of thing that drove them to concrete actions. Attributing your problems to a grand and abstract The System doesn't imply that you'll do anything more than vote for a left-wing social democrat, as was the case when the majority of card-carrying socialist workers in Germany 1919 saw a revolution unfolding before their eyes and did nothing.
Are you arguing a case for vanguardism?

[Tim Finnegan]

No, I'm arguing against it.

[Ele'ill]

I have noticed in a lot of posts here on revleft people saying they don't talk about politics, I talk about anarchism all the time, so I have managed to get 3 people interested and 1 turned anarchist.
If you don't talk about your political philosophy how are you going to achieve revolution, you need people to know the alternatives to capitalism in order to end it, if you don't tell them how are they to know?

I tell people about anarchism, I criticize authoritarianism, and I spread propaganda.

In conclusion I am an activist: once in history class my teacher said that portugal after the 1974 revolution became a democratic country, I laughed and explained why it was not democratic and that true democracy is rule of the people; when my math teacher spoke about the school system I did a critic of it and explained that it could be made much better; When some of my fellow students were doing a presentation they had made about telecommunications and they said that globalization could spread capitalism, I of course knew that if they said that was because it was written online, so I asked what capitalism was, they could not answer and I was then envited by the teacher to explain, so I managed to explain capitalism, anarchism and socialism that day to the whole class.


You should follow my example and become activists.

Stuff naturally comes up in daily life where I act according to what I believe in. I talk with people about stuff when they want to talk but I don't talk at them and I'm comfortable dropping the conversation regardless of how reactionary their position might be. I've found that a lot of people who aren't radicals still act like one in certain situations and it's there in those situations where support is needed and perhaps open dialogue with them (I'm often curious why they acted a certain way or why they believe a certain thing so the conversations are respectfully unforced and natural)

[Taboo Tongue]

I tell people about anarchism, I criticize authoritarianism, and I spread propaganda.
It's 'great' to do that in school and\or when you're living at home. I did it too.:)
When you're risking your livelihood (your job), it is a bit different. We have to tailor and focus a bit more.

I think it's great that you educate in your school.
But what kind of 'action' are you going to agitate for based on that education?
How are the students going to organize (or be organized and possibly co-opted) to take the action you educated, and agitated for?

[Raúl Duke]

Good for you, RedAnarchist22!

But your anecdotes also run counter to others anecdotes, plus anecdotes are not exactly a proof on anything.

When I was younger, I was a bit more vocal about my ideas and talking politics. But in the end of the day, I realized the majority of people didn't want to talk about it, particularly not often. Thus, I talk about politics less and usually only when someone else brings up the topic.

However, it doesn't exactly mean that it's any kind of activism...
This model of "conversion as activism" only leads to a kinda closed group.

[Althusser]

I don't think he expects to "bring revolution" with some posters.

The arrogance of so many people here make it impossible for people to share ways they've informed others in the smallest and most insignificant of ways, without being criticized.

All I can say is, when you spread leftist ideas:

1.) Be a good debater

2.) Don't come off as an asshole (Look like you're in it for the good of the people and not just for some sense of intellectual or moral superiority.)

3.) Please.... please understand what you are talking about.

[Althusser]

who cares about ideology? most people dont give a fuck. change occurs from class struggle. not from obscure leftist groups writing essays and telling a few friends about what they read in some book.

Your solution: Let's not acknowledge the existence of leftist ideology, outside of the internet of course, because merely exchanging these ideas makes you an obscure leftist who is too stupid to realize that he isn't making a difference in the least.

Let's take everything Lenin, Trotsky, Marx, Fidel, Che, etc. wrote and said, and have a big ol' book burning. How stupid they were! Thinking that "spreading ideas" that didn't involve spreading a dudes ideas all over the floor literally with a gun, could possibly make a difference.

[Taboo Tongue]

Your solution: Let's not acknowledge the existence of leftist ideology, outside of the internet of course, because merely exchanging these ideas makes you an obscure leftist who is too stupid to realize that he isn't making a difference in the least.

Let's take everything Lenin, Trotsky, Marx, Fidel, Che, etc. wrote and said, and have a big ol' book burning. How stupid they were! Thinking that "spreading ideas" that didn't involve spreading a dudes ideas all over the floor literally with a gun, could possibly make a difference.
His solution: Focus on the class
Your Solution: Focus on big noggin heads.

Marx is the shit that killed Elvis! His theories are great!
...But without underlying contradictions, and experience in the struggle, you have nothing.

Without actually taking part in the class struggle, you are in fact less conscience than someone who's never read Marx---but has 'experienced' Marxism.
Doing brings out your class-consciousness, not just a book. A book only refines and codifies it.

My solution: Get your nose out of the book, make a red flag and drive to the picket line, and engage.
...But bring a book because picket lines can be boring places to hang out. ;{P

[I.O.T.M]

I talk about politics often, but not all the time.

I'll be open with friends and peers, but I keep quiet about my politics at work. Mainly I'll keep quiet as a defence mechanism, I don't want my employer to know that I'll be willing to fight against attacks on my rights as this may affect/effect (?) my chances of gaining employment.

I also don't talk about politics with my colleagues as they are mostly bigoted. I'm not just throwing that word around, a few of my co-workers have admitted to hating black/foreign people ever since they were kids (They're now in their late 40's/early 50's). All discussing politics would do is alienate myself from them and my opinions would fall on deaf ears.

You have to be tactful about how you share your opinions with others. Don't waste your time on those who aren't going to listen, don't put yourself in an awkward position with potential employers and don't be that guy who does nothing but preach (people don't like being condescended).

There's a time and a place for getting up on your soap box. Stand up for yourself when someone says something homophobic or racist. If your employer tries to make you do something illegal, make a stand against it.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I don't think he expects to "bring revolution" with some posters.

The arrogance of so many people here make it impossible for people to share ways they've informed others in the smallest and most insignificant of ways, without being criticized.

All I can say is, when you spread leftist ideas:

1.) Be a good debater

2.) Don't come off as an asshole (Look like you're in it for the good of the people and not just for some sense of intellectual or moral superiority.)

3.) Please.... please understand what you are talking about.


I think I got those three covered:

1- I have spent so much time here on revleft that I can defend anarchism in every way possible, no matter the accusation.

2- I learned anarchism to teach it to as many people as possible, not to brag about knowing it.

3- Don't wory, when I teach anarchism I don't say that the answer lies in the all-knowing Post #52:D