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Tim Cornelis
30th April 2012, 22:43
Golden Dawn (Greek nazi party) is rising in the polls.

Where is the revolutionary left? The KKE? The Anarchists? Too comfortabel in their parliamentary seats? Hurling molotov cocktails?

Meanwhile Golden Dawn is supplying the needy with food and clothes.

Is the KKE leadership using every opportunity to explain the 'migrant issue' (the only way to stop such crimes is by eliminating the need for such crimes: eliminate capitalism)? I'd be very surprised if they did.

It seems that -- the KKE being in parliament for decades but without result -- is seen as the establishment and thus part of the problem. Are the members of the KKE out on the streets every day with an armory of propaganda?

Are the anarchists doing more than just raiding Golden Dawn offices and hurling molotov cocktails at coppers?


ATHENS, Greece - Reeling from a vicious financial crisis that has cost them pensions and jobs, Greeks have been turning away in droves from the mainstream politicians they feel have let them down. Another political force is trying to tap the void, with blunt promises to "clean up" the country.

It's one that could see Europe's most extreme far right deputies take up seats in Greece's Parliament in crucial May 6 elections.

Black-clad Golden Dawn members have been storming across the campaign trail across Greece, stopping to chat at cafes and shops, handing out fliers promising security in crime-ridden neighborhoods — and vowing to kick out immigrants.

Greece's borders, they say, must be sealed with land mines to stop illegal crossing into a country that became the entry point for 90 percent of the European Union's illegal migrants. Authorities estimate there are about 1 million migrants living in this country of 11 million.

Appealing to populist sentiment, Golden Dawn has been gathering donations of food and clothing to deliver to the needy while pledging to make politicians accountable for the crisis. Ordinary Greeks are struggling under tough conditions demanded for rescue loan deals that have pushed the country into a fifth year of recession.

"Golden Dawn stands against this corrupt system of power. All those who are responsible for the waste of public money must go to jail. That is our priority," said Ilias Kasidiaris, a 31-year-old party member who served in the Greek army's special forces.

Around him, the party offices in downtown Athens were a hive of activity, with newcomers dropping in and the membership list growing by the day. In the back, T-shirts and caps are for sale marked with the party logo, taken from the ancient Greek meander, a motif resembling the swastika and often seen on ancient mosaics, carvings and wall paintings.

Firmly on the fringe of the right since it first appeared 20 years ago, Golden Dawn garnered a meager 0.23 percent in the 2009 elections. Now, it looks set to easily win more than the 3 percent threshold needed to enter Parliament, with recent opinion polls showing support at about 5 percent.

The party has a barely veiled sinister side, and has been blamed for vicious attacks on immigrants. Members skirt questions about violence, saying they have no knowledge of such incidents.

"We don't do anything, we protect the Greeks," said Epaminondas Anyfantis, a mild-mannered, 59-year-old candidate who looks the antithesis of many of the young, muscled and shaven-headed members. "Now, if in protecting the Greeks, a foreigner might get a slap or a kick or something, I think that's in the framework of the protection of the Greeks. ... Because unfortunately the Greeks at the moment have come to the point of asking Golden Dawn for protection."

With parts of central Athens turning into ghetto-like neighborhoods where drug users inject openly and muggings and burglaries are regular events, many have lost confidence in the police.

Giorgos Vardzis, who lives in the small seaside town of Artemida, has taken down the numbers of Golden Dawn members in case of emergencies.

"Who else should I call, the police? ... When you ask for help from the police because you're being killed, you have to be killed first, and then the police will come," he said.

Immigrants are increasingly concerned.

"We are worried very much," said Javed Aslam, the head of the Pakistani community in Greece, during a recent anti-racist demonstration. "This is very bad. You can imagine one political party with weapons, with knives, they are going out in the roads, and this is politics? This is not politics!"

Led by Nikolas Mihaloliakos, who won a seat on the Athens city council in 2010 local elections and shocked Greeks by delivering a fascist salute in his first appearance there, Golden Dawn rejects the neo-Nazi label, pointing out that many of their fathers fought the Germans during the Nazi occupation of Greece.

"We are Greek nationalists. Nothing more and nothing less than that," said Kasidiaris.

But they don't hide their admiration for many of Hitler's policies, saying he eliminated unemployment in Germany. Golden Dawn members often give fascist salutes at marches and rallies featuring nationalist slogans and burning torches, pictures of which adorn walls in party offices.

And they are tapping into a deep well of discontent with the parties that have dominated Greek politics for decades, conservative New Democracy and socialist PASOK.

"Our children have no jobs. They cut my husband's pension," said Evlambia Spantidaki, sitting on the porch of a friend's house in Artemida. "For a while I voted New Democracy. I changed and voted for PASOK. But now nothing, none of them."

This year, her vote will go to Golden Dawn.

"All those people who are following us at the moment, let's be realistic ... they didn't suddenly become nationalists from one minute to the next," said Giorgos Germenis, a member of the party's political council responsible for ideology. He is running as a Golden Dawn candidate in the wider Athens area. "It is a vote of protest. They find confidence in the face of Golden Dawn, that it will enter Parliament and really shake up the system."

With none of its more than 220 candidates, bar its leader, a recognized politician, the party also plays to voters disillusioned with the political elite.

"We will never become politicians. We are soldiers and we will die soldiers," said Anyfantis. "We are soldiers fighting for a cause."

In a country that suffered famine under Nazi occupation and saw arbitrary detentions and torture under the 1967-74 military dictatorship, the party's growing popularity has alarmed many.

"I have been surprised and very worried by the explosion in the opinion polls of Golden Dawn, the most extreme form of the extreme right," Athens University political science professor Ilias Nicolacopoulos said shortly after elections were declared in mid-April.

So the mainstream has been scrambling to win back the right-wing vote, putting immigration at the top of the agenda. Public Order Minister Michalis Chrysohoidis has pledged to build detention centers for 30,000 illegal immigrants by 2014, with the first one to open within days. Police have raided migrant apartments, and legislation now allows authorities to force migrants to have health checks and medical treatment.

Immigrant groups say there has been a spike in racist violence recently.

"There is a worrying trend of racist attacks directed against non-EU foreigners in Greece," said Ketty Kehagioglou, UNHCR spokeswoman in Athens. "In times of instability it is always easy to look for scapegoats and extremist groups take advantage of this situation."

In an Athens hospital ward, Pakistani migrant Mohammad lies propped up on a bed, his right arm in a cast, stitches in the back of his head, his nose broken — the result of a severe beating one recent Sunday night by a group of about 25 men armed with wooden bats and iron rods, he said.

Across town in a small one-bedroom flat, his friend Ahmad is recovering from head and hand injuries from the same attack.

"They just asked 'what's your country?' and then they start beating us. ... With hands and wood and the iron rod," Ahmad said. Neither had spoken to the police about the incident. Fearing reprisals, they asked for only their first names to be used.

For their part, Golden Dawn seem confident of taking up parliamentary seats after May 6 — even if it is on a protest vote.

"That is why the whole system is fighting us," said Anyfantis. "Because they are afraid that when we get into Parliament, the Greek people will understand that we are neither a gang, nor Nazis, nor children of Hitler. ... We are just Greek patriots, we love our country. We are prepared even to sacrifice ourselves for our beliefs, for the country, for its people."

(associated press)


April 30 (Bloomberg) -- Theodore Couloumbis experienced the Nazi occupation of Greece as a boy and 70 years later he's worried he'll witness the return of stiff-armed salutes and fascist flags.

The Golden Dawn party may enter the parliament in Athens for the first time after May 6 elections, current polls show, as rising anti-immigrant sentiment among austerity-hit Greeks spurs support for groups formerly on the political fringes. Ninety percent of people surveyed for a To Vima newspaper poll published on April 9 said immigrants are responsible for an increase in violence and crime.

"The last thing I would want to see in the Greek parliament is a bunch of people who give the Hitler salute," said Couloumbis, 76, a professor of international relations at the University of Athens. "I'm old enough to remember the absolute ugliness of that particular occupation."

The group is known for its violent clashes in immigrant neighborhoods and for a red and black party logo resembling a disentangled swastika. Members of the group have said it's not Nazi or fascist and they reject any connection of its logo to a swastika, saying it's an ancient Greek symbol. A video of Golden Dawn leader Nikolaos Michaloliakos shows him giving the fascist salute.

Golden Dawn's charter says its "main ideal and belief is the nation-tribe" and that "only men and women of Greek descent and consciousness should have full political rights." Michaloliakos declined to comment for this story when called on his mobile phone.


Land Mines


The party wants land mines placed on the Greek-Turkish border to stop illegal immigrants entering the country and cancellation of Greek loan accords with the European Union and International Monetary Fund.

It also calls for wiping out debt accumulated since 1974 that's deemed "illegal and burdensome." Greek banks that get state funds should be nationalized, as should all natural resources, the party's program says.

Golden Dawn is bolstering support by organizing security patrols in immigrant-heavy neighborhoods and by running food banks for Greeks suffering from five years of recession and unemployment of almost 22 percent.

"I'm voting for Golden Dawn because I want all the immigrants to leave," Maria Papageorgiou, 52, said in an interview in the Athens neighborhood where she has lived all her life. "There's a high crime rate, it's a miserable situation. They should leave and go back to their countries. Or maybe the Germans can take them."


Euro Status


At stake in the election is whether the next Greek government can implement the austerity measures on which bailout funds and euro membership depend.

The Athens Stock Exchange has lost 61 percent of its value over the last two years. An index of Greek banks dropped 73 percent in the last 12 months. Greek government bonds maturing in February 2023 are yielding 20.55 percent compared with 18.28 percent on March 14, the day after the country's credit rating was lifted out of the default category by Fitch Ratings following the agreement of a debt swap.

Polls show Golden Dawn winning as much as 5 percent of the vote, enough to enter parliament for the first time. The party, which was founded two decades ago, won its first seat on the Athens city council in 2010.

Golden Dawn's rise comes as far-right or nationalist parties are surging in a number of European countries including Hungary, Austria, the Netherlands and France, where anti- immigrant National Front leader Marine Le Pen won 17.9 percent in the first round of presidential elections on April 22.


'Lazy Thinking'


"Populist parties on the left and the right rely on fear," Jan Techau, director of the Brussels-based European Center of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said in a phone interview. "They always gain when the economy is bad. But to just hope an improving economy will make them go away is lazy thinking."

In Greece, Pasok and New Democracy, the two parties supporting the interim government of Prime Minister Lucas Papademos in implementing austerity measures in exchange for a second 130 billion euro ($172 billion) loan package, are trying to show their credentials in combating illegal immigration to stem the loss of votes to anti-foreigner parties.

New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras, whose party leads in opinion polls yet is short of a majority, also has to contend with a loss of votes to parties opposed to austerity measures.


Illegal Entry


Greece, with a population of 11 million, has an estimated 1 million immigrants, many of whom are illegal, the Greek government says. Police last year arrested 99,368 foreigners for being in or entering the country illegally, more than half of whom were from Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh.

Most want to travel to other EU countries where economic prospects are better yet many of them end up in central Athens living in squalid apartments and are exploited by criminal gangs, according to a statement on the Ministry of Citizen Protection's website.

Anti-immigrant groups "are taking advantage of the disaffection of the average Greek voter against uncontrolled immigration," said Couloumbis, who is vice-president of the Hellenic Foundation for European & Foreign Policy and writes a regular column in the Athens-based Kathimerini newspaper.

In addition to Golden Dawn, the Independent Greeks party has polled near 10 percent. It was set up on Feb. 24 by Panos Kammenos after he was expelled from New Democracy for casting a vote against the interim Papademos government.

Laos, a nationalist party that wants immigrants to be shipped to uninhabited Greek islands before being deported, is also vying for anti-foreigner voters. Polls show as many as 10 political parties could enter Greece's parliament.


No Nazis


Golden Dawn caused controversy on the campaign trail when a group of its supporters threw bottles and other objects at a Pasok socialist candidate during a campaign event in the Athens suburb of Maroussi on April 21, Athens News Agency reported.

"Parliament cannot become a reception space for the followers of Nazism and fascism," Pasok leader Evangelos Venizelos said in response to the incident.

During late March and early April, hundreds of police with dogs began rounding up illegal immigrants in downtown Athens ahead of the creation of detention centers being set up throughout Greece, mostly at disused army bases.

Couloumbis, who experienced Adolf Hitler's troops as a boy, said Golden Dawn's winning seats "would be quite damaging."

"I'm old enough to have lived during the occupation of Greece by the Germans," he said in an interview. "The last thing we need on top of everything else is to have a bunch of fascists in the Greek parliament."

(source (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2012/04/30/bloomberg_articlesM33G291A1I4K01-M35B3.DTL&ao=2))

This shit could set a serious precedence.

Note: last poll results (polls are no longer allowed by Greek law):

http://s17.postimage.org/3nofqslzx/polls.png

marl
30th April 2012, 22:55
During economic crisis, fascists become popular among the petite bourgeoisie and some of the bourgeoisie, the rise of the Golden Dawn is not something to worry about because of the outstanding efforts by the anarchists and KKE.

It'll be a long time before the far-right can win over the working class in Greece.

Railyon
30th April 2012, 23:01
During economic crisis, fascists become popular among the petite bourgeoisie and some of the bourgeoisie, the rise of the Golden Dawn is not something to worry about because of the outstanding efforts by the anarchists and KKE.

Agree with the first part but not necessarily with the latter. If capitalism really is threatened, it may throw itself into the arms of fascism like a deadweight just as it has done nearly a hundred years ago.

I don't take it for granted it may be any different this time around. That fascism is opportunism made manifest is par for the course, but it does not answer Goti's question really...

marl
30th April 2012, 23:21
Of course, but there will be bourgie that reject fascism as well.

Anarcho-Brocialist
30th April 2012, 23:24
Where is the revolutionary left? The KKE? The Anarchists? Too comfortabel in their parliamentary seats? Hurling molotov cocktails?


He's correct in this particular proclamation. We do need to organize and inform the public where we stand and what we can provide as alternatives to other systems. We haven't done so very well doing that thus far, and it's revealing itself by the rise of these parasites to society.

EDIT : Right now we're unorganized and unable to act in an efficient manner and we'll will continue to see opposition discredit our views and alternatives.

Prometeo liberado
30th April 2012, 23:25
Looks like Golden Dawn has pulled a page from the Hezbollah playbook.

Agathor
30th April 2012, 23:31
During economic crisis, fascists become popular among the petite bourgeoisie and some of the bourgeoisie, the rise of the Golden Dawn is not something to worry about because of the outstanding efforts by the anarchists and KKE.

It'll be a long time before the far-right can win over the working class in Greece.

Hitler tried to appeal to the mittlestant, but when he took power his base was working class; he was particularly strong amongst unemployed youths.

You don't win 44% of the vote on the back of the bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoise.

NewLeft
30th April 2012, 23:31
Laos, a nationalist party that wants immigrants to be shipped to uninhabited Greek islands before being deported, is also vying for anti-foreigner voters. Polls show as many as 10 political parties could enter Greece's parliament.
And Laos was labeled the 'moderate' conservative party in the media.

Railyon
30th April 2012, 23:42
You don't win 44% of the vote on the back of the bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoise.
Yeah, though his rise to power was because of the radicalization of the center; as far as I know the voter base for SPD and KPD didn't change much, but the conservatives and centrists all went over to the NSDAP.

In light of this, the center parties claiming they're outside extremism becomes, in a fatal way, a (past) irony of fate.

Per Levy
1st May 2012, 00:09
Note: last poll results (polls are no longer allowed by Greek law):

please what? are polls that dangerous now that the need to be outlawed?

Ravachol
1st May 2012, 00:21
While the formation of networks of mutual aid should be a top priority for all communists, there's a huge problem with 'handing out stuff to win heads' though. First of all, 'winning heads' doesn't mean anything if these heads are just passive supporters of a group they consider separate from themselves (ie. a party), secondly, the problem with acting like a 'charity' is that it promotes passivity, dependence and reproduces a separation between the 'liberators' and the 'passive, docile masses', something that suits authoritarians of all kinds but not anarchists.

Mutual aid networks established by (libertarian) communists ought to operate through a praxis of self-empowerment, collective canteens operated by all participants, supplied with food that is either collectively farmed at expropriated farms (or urban gardens) or expropriated from the supermarkets on a mass-scale. The spread and rotation of such a praxis matters infinitely more than using it as a cheap marketing stunt.

Tim Cornelis
1st May 2012, 00:30
please what? are polls that dangerous now that the need to be outlawed?

I phrased it awkwardly, I should have said "polls are no longer allowed until after the elections." In Greece, for some reason, it's not allowed to have polls circa a month (2 weeks or so, I don't know) prior to elections. 20 april was the last day polls were allowed, until the elections.

Die Neue Zeit
1st May 2012, 03:23
While the formation of networks of mutual aid should be a top priority for all communists, there's a huge problem with 'handing out stuff to win heads' though. First of all, 'winning heads' doesn't mean anything if these heads are just passive supporters of a group they consider separate from themselves (ie. a party), secondly, the problem with acting like a 'charity' is that it promotes passivity, dependence and reproduces a separation between the 'liberators' and the 'passive, docile masses', something that suits authoritarians of all kinds but not anarchists.

Mutual aid networks established by (libertarian) communists ought to operate through a praxis of self-empowerment, collective canteens operated by all participants, supplied with food that is either collectively farmed at expropriated farms (or urban gardens) or expropriated from the supermarkets on a mass-scale. The spread and rotation of such a praxis matters infinitely more than using it as a cheap marketing stunt.

The central point still stands. The Greek far-right is employing Alternative Culture to some extent, and it's natural that political support gravitate towards them for this.

Delenda Carthago
1st May 2012, 03:30
Stupidity is the best bet in this forum.




Where is the revolutionary left? The KKE? The Anarchists? Too comfortabel in their parliamentary seats? Hurling molotov cocktails?I cant speak for everybody else, but as far as KKE goes, PAME unions have been organising the 4 biggest strikes in the country right now, and KKE members are doing the biggest propaganda campaign you have ever seen! Door to door, workplace to workplace, everyday all day. Speaking to people about socialism and giving to the people arguments against capitalism. Organising people.


Meanwhile Golden Dawn is supplying the needy with food and clothes.Yeah. This is why GD is gaining power. Not because the whole System is promoting them as "antisystemic alternative" while at the same time they use it to promote the terrorism of a new "Weimar Republic" with "the extremists of both sides" rising. Not because they have become, after the downfall of LAOS, the political expression of far right in Greece, something that is rooted decades back. Nor because people see them as the solution to the immigration problem. Its because they give food and clothes.


The rise of GD is the System's answer to KKE rise.


Is the KKE leadership using every opportunity to explain the 'migrant issue' (the only way to stop such crimes is by eliminating the need for such crimes: eliminate capitalism)? I'd be very surprised if they did.Every single day. To more people than you have ever spoke to.

http://www2.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=3911225&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3
http://www2.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=1569810&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3
http://www2.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=2063585&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3
http://www2.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=3053846&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3
http://www2.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=4887608&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3
http://www2.rizospastis.gr/wwwengine/story.do?id=5134868&textCriteriaClause=%2B%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%A4%CE%91%CE% 9D%CE%91%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%95%CE%A3

etc.



It seems that -- the KKE being in parliament for decades but without result -- is seen as the establishment and thus part of the problem.

If you say so...



Are the anarchists doing more than just raiding Golden Dawn offices and hurling molotov cocktails at coppers?

They have take their fair share in antifascist action in this society. I dont know if that seems "small" to you, obviously you have something better to show us.

Delenda Carthago
1st May 2012, 03:41
REPcfpLGc2Q

This is what KKE did today in Thesaloniki. At 15.08 a panoramic view. I google translate the comments.


So many people in concentration election of the Communist Party in Thessaloniki first time I see myself! Pleasant surprise ... I can say!!

theo7pap before 4 hours 5


KKE filled Aristotelous sq.
DeejEvi before 6 hours 12
The square was packed .. I was there!

1978venceremos before 5 hours 12How do you think this happened? By the promotion of the Media? Just to give you a fact, from April 2 to 8, 157 politicians spoke to the media. You know how many of them were from KKE? ONE! You know how many from GD? 8! KKE is a party that took 8% in the last elections, GD 0,5%. What do you make out of it?

Workers-Control-Over-Prod
1st May 2012, 04:36
Too comfortabel in their parliamentary seats? Hurling molotov cocktails?


You forgot the third option: Too sectarian?

blake 3:17
1st May 2012, 04:50
The central point still stands. The Greek far-right is employing Alternative Culture to some extent, and it's natural that political support gravitate towards them for this.

As long as the radical Left doesn't actually help people, it remains irrelevant. Grandiose plans of revolutionary socialist and anarchist militancy (all of which I'm for) fall totally flat when we don't make life possible or bearable.

In the Palestinian struggle, Fatah grew enormously and won legitimacy by providing and organizing the meeting of basic material and social needs of displaced Palestinians. Hamas grew when it did the same thing, and Fatah and the PLO weren't doing that.

Die Neue Zeit
1st May 2012, 06:13
^^^ You forgot Hezbollah.

Ravachol
1st May 2012, 13:23
As long as the radical Left doesn't actually help people, it remains irrelevant. Grandiose plans of revolutionary socialist and anarchist militancy (all of which I'm for) fall totally flat when we don't make life possible or bearable.

In the Palestinian struggle, Fatah grew enormously and won legitimacy by providing and organizing the meeting of basic material and social needs of displaced Palestinians. Hamas grew when it did the same thing, and Fatah and the PLO weren't doing that.

I have never denied that, I'm just pointing out it takes a lot more than just being some dumb NGO charity to make this aid contribute to revolutionary praxis as opposed to just being a marketing machine for this or that party.

We should realize that our actions now form the basis for the social relations we forge in the future and act accordingly.

Die Neue Zeit
1st May 2012, 14:54
I have never denied that, I'm just pointing out it takes a lot more than just being some dumb NGO charity to make this aid contribute to revolutionary praxis as opposed to just being a marketing machine for this or that party.

We should realize that our actions now form the basis for the social relations we forge in the future and act accordingly.

But a "marketing machine for this or that party" is nothing short of a good thing, as the institutional experience of the pre-war SPD and inter-war USPD, the German worker-class-for-itself, demonstrated.

blake 3:17
2nd May 2012, 22:42
We should realize that our actions now form the basis for the social relations we forge in the future and act accordingly.

I'm with you in spirit on this. I keep a big distance from the NGOs -- some are useful and do facilitate survival AND struggle, others do great jobs at delivering humanitarian aid, and others are useless parasites.


^^^ You forgot Hezbollah.

Wasn't trying to be exhaustive, but yes.

I'd be interested in learning more about International Red Aid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Red_Aid

Edited to add: A couple of points I meant to make.

1) On the NGOs -- Where I'm at there are a few NGOish community centres/agencies that are very happy to work with the radical and revolutionary Left. Their mandate is to provide different forms of immediate aid, build community, and advocate on social policy. Due to various rules and restrictions around their charitable status their ability to participate in revolutionary praxis is limited, but they will provide space, organizational ability/infrastructure and endorsements for political actions. They certainly don't force people using their services or resources to follow any political line, but will provide educational materials and opportunities.

2) Mass lay offs and the unions -- For the most part the labour movement here doesn't do much for its laid off members, especially if they're permanently laid off. The regional exceptions I know of have mostly been members of the Auto Workers, which had facilitated or helped fund social centres and kitchens to laid off members. The other unions could be doing something similar. This helps break the poverty and isolation of unemployment, as well as offering education abut economics, politics, etc as well as recreation.

Die Neue Zeit
3rd May 2012, 04:18
^^^ The challenge, comrade, is for any Alternative Culture to have a "business model" (preferrably non-profit organization, as opposed to for-profit coop) that can thrive independent of "tax status."

blake 3:17
4th May 2012, 00:03
The challenge, comrade, is for any Alternative Culture to have a "business model" (preferrably non-profit organization, as opposed to for-profit coop) that can thrive independent of "tax status."

Examples? Anything I can think of that resembles what you are proposing has been heavily reliant on voluntary donations & those resources tend to fluctuate frequently.

Tabarnack
4th May 2012, 01:21
The parties to the left of PASOK would have easily won this election if they had created a united front but the KKE would never agree to that, the KKE is a sectarian Stalinist party that has always collaborated with the most reactionary forces in Greece, even handing over power to a bourgeois Papandreou (grandfather) governement when it had full military and political control of Greece after ww2.

Die Neue Zeit
4th May 2012, 04:14
Examples? Anything I can think of that resembles what you are proposing has been heavily reliant on voluntary donations & those resources tend to fluctuate frequently.

Like I said, comrade, that's the challenge.

Ocean Seal
4th May 2012, 04:29
As long as the radical Left doesn't actually help people, it remains irrelevant. Grandiose plans of revolutionary socialist and anarchist militancy (all of which I'm for) fall totally flat when we don't make life possible or bearable.

In the Palestinian struggle, Fatah grew enormously and won legitimacy by providing and organizing the meeting of basic material and social needs of displaced Palestinians. Hamas grew when it did the same thing, and Fatah and the PLO weren't doing that.
This I agree with. Debates on whether Trotsky or Stalin held Lenin's legacy can only take us so far. The parties which don't preoccupy themselves with ideological purity will be the ones which successfully bring the masses to the left. Take the BPP, although they had in depth analyses of Mao and Kim Il Sung their strongest selling point was their presence in the poor black community. Starting up basic resource distributions and setting up anti-drug anti-cop propaganda campaigns.

Blanquist
4th May 2012, 04:39
It's bad, the impotent fake-left is worthless, they are opening the way for extreme reaction, absolutely disgusting that anyone would support these social-fascists.

Only a revolutionary party of the working class can stop the coming catastrophe.

Have we learned nothing from history?

bcbm
4th May 2012, 05:04
In the Palestinian struggle, Fatah grew enormously and won legitimacy by providing and organizing the meeting of basic material and social needs of displaced Palestinians. Hamas grew when it did the same thing, and Fatah and the PLO weren't doing that.


I have never denied that, I'm just pointing out it takes a lot more than just being some dumb NGO charity to make this aid contribute to revolutionary praxis as opposed to just being a marketing machine for this or that party.

hamas, hezbollah etc don't just function as 'some dumb ngo charity' though. they operate as a mutual aid club on a sliding scale, with nonmembers receiving limited services while members get much more but require a lot of volunteer work and so on. this is known as the 'club model' in economics or something, i can't find a link. check out the book 'radical, religious and violent' by eli berman i think pro-revolutionaries would do well to read it and understand what makes these orgs function so successfully and start aping some of those strategies.

Die Neue Zeit
4th May 2012, 05:12
hamas, hezbollah etc don't just function as 'some dumb ngo charity' though. they operate as a mutual aid club on a sliding scale, with nonmembers receiving limited services while members get much more but require a lot of volunteer work and so on. this is known as the 'club model' in economics or something, i can't find a link. check out the book 'radical, religious and violent' by eli berman i think pro-revolutionaries would do well to read it and understand what makes these orgs function so successfully and start aping some of those strategies.

Have you now dropped "nihilist communism" and reconsidered the German worker-class-for-itself that was the pre-war SPD? :eek:

bcbm
4th May 2012, 05:28
Have you now dropped "nihilist communism" and reconsidered the German worker-class-for-itself that was the pre-war SPD? :eek:


i've never considered the german worker-class-for-itself but i can't see anything wrong in adopting apparently working strategies for pro-revolutionary groups on the left. if it doesn't work, which seems entirely possible, we're not any worse off than we are today.

and i think 'nihilist communism' is at its heart about stepping back from the ongoing nonsense of 'the left' and re-assessing the situation which this certainly would be a part of.

Grenzer
4th May 2012, 07:45
i've never considered the german worker-class-for-itself but i can't see anything wrong in adopting apparently working strategies for pro-revolutionary groups on the left. if it doesn't work, which seems entirely possible, we're not any worse off than we are today.

and i think 'nihilist communism' is at its heart about stepping back from the ongoing nonsense of 'the left' and re-assessing the situation which this certainly would be a part of.

The basic idea is that we should have a party which seeks to merge Marxism and the worker's movement. This would mean having a multi-tendency party which accepts both revolutionary and non-revolutionary workers; but one that soundly rejects any form of collaboration outside the working class.

Most the Marxist left accepts "vanguardism", which is really just a perversion of Lenin's conception of the party as the class-for-itself. Rejection of non-revolutionary workers from the party makes it irrelevant by default and consigns it to the level of a circle-sect. The continued failure of leftist sects to have an impact shows that their strategy doesn't work. The last party to function this way was probably either the Bolsheviks up to around the Civil War, or the USPD; so it really hasn't been seriously tried in nearly 100 years. It led to the Bolshevik revolution, so I don't see why it shouldn't be tried again. The parties of the second international which pursued this strategy flourished and their growth was nearly inevitable and unstoppable.

It's definitely a maverick strategy; but it's actually to the left of the Trotskyists/Stalinists/Maoists who explicitly embrace class collaboration in certain cases. In the case of Trotskyists, it's their willingness to work with social-democratic parties, which are really just a faction of the bourgeoisie(There is a huge difference between including reformist workers, and working with a bourgeois party). With Stalinists, its their tendency towards coalitionism and popular frontism. With the Maoists, it's the same, but they also have "New Democracy" which is a form of class collaboration with the bourgeoisie, petit-bourgeoisie, and peasantry.

Like you said, worst comes to worst, it's not like we'll be any worse off. It's difficult to imagine the worker's movement as a class-for-itself being more fucked than it is right now.

Delenda Carthago
4th May 2012, 08:04
The parties to the left of PASOK would have easily won this election if they had created a united front but the KKE would never agree to that, the KKE is a sectarian Stalinist party that has always collaborated with the most reactionary forces in Greece, even handing over power to a bourgeois Papandreou (grandfather) governement when it had full military and political control of Greece after ww2.
So why the rest of the parties to the left of PASOK dont collaborate? And btw, why are you attacking bourgeois Papandreou? Isnt SYRIZA and Democratic Left (the parties to the left of PASOK)bourgeois parties? What are they? Workers parties?

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'
4th May 2012, 09:37
This and the increase in general support among the young and unemployed in france for Front National...always unsettling when there are fascistic rumbles and gains in Europe..(not getting hysterical, not exactly like 1930's..yet)