Hugo Chavez

[Bolshevika]

What is your opinion on this great man? Recently I've really been getting Pan-Latin Americanist politics, and as I grew in support of The Great Liberators, I heavily grew in support of Comrade Hugo Chavez. Chavez is fighting against injustice in (Latin) America, pleading with the right-wing oligarchs to stop the rape and oppression of their people and stop letting the yankees rape them of their resources. Chavez has instated many social programs that the Venezuelan bourgeois worms in Miami say are "ruining the economy". He has survived the many CIA/worm/businessmen coups against him on the shoulders of the millions of Venezuelan peasants.

I say to myself, if Bolivar saw Chavez, he would be proud. Long live America!

[redstar2000]

What is your opinion on this great man?

The very way in which you phrase your question betrays your complete lack of Marxist understanding. A Marxist might ask "what is your opinion of the class struggle presently taking place in Venezuela?". Or perhaps "what are the present class relations in Venezuela?".

But the Leninist thirst for a "great leader" is rarely quenched. Without one, you are utterly lost.

To the actual question: Hugo Chavez is the latest incarnation of the "populist despot"...a common figure in developing capitalist economies. The proto-type was Napoleon III. There have been many since then. Even the U.S. has produced them--for example, Huey P. Long of Louisiana (1928-1935).

What they have in common, aside from swollen egos, is the introduction of reforms necessary to the further development of modern capitalism. This may include wide-spread public education, a public health program, the construction of modern roads and bridges, the development of electric power, land reform, and other measures that "clear away" the muck of pre-capitalist underdevelopment.

The old ruling classes react predictabily..."communist tyranny is at hand, blah, blah, blah!". What they really resent is the "writing on the wall"...the fact that their "ancient" privileges are going to be lost and that new and much more vigorous capitalists will rise to take their places "in the sun".

But what of the "Bolivarian Circles"...the neighborhood groups of poor and working class Venezuelans? Today they support Chavez in his struggle with the "old oligarchs". When the oligarchs are defeated (if that happens), what will be the fate of the "Circles" then?

History suggests that the most likely outcome is that they will be "sterilized"...turned into job agencies for the government's most ardent supporters. Their "popular" character will be lost and they will become another mechanism of social control.

A different outcome is, of course, possible. Depending on the militancy and class consciousness of the "Circles", they could turn against Chavez after the oligarchs are gone...demanding real power for the ordinary people of Venezuela.

This would almost certainly lead to civil war and possibly U.S. invasion.

At the moment, the situation is "fluid" and the outcome is probably impossible to predict.

"Great man" worship adds nothing to our understanding.

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[Guest1]

my opinion would probably lie somewhere in between the two.

while I agree bolshevika's pretty quick to declare that the messiah has arrived, your ciriticism is a little harsh.

at the very least, I would say that chavez's intentions do not lie with the phenomenon you are describing. although I would agree that skepticism is necessary, I think venezuela's continual resistance to the us, to the ftaa, to corporate infringement, are promising signs. his more than friendly relations with cuba, while castro is no hero, are another postive point.

his not so union-friendly and pro-centralized government stances however are a little disappointing.

in general though, I would say he genuinely believes he is working for the good of the poor in venezuela, just as we might say castro once genuinely believed that.

[redstar2000]

The difficulty in evaluating "sincerity" is lack of complete evidence.

Whenever one of these charismatic populists emerges, there is always a lot of debate along the lines of "does he really care about us or is he just another faker?". And we have no real way to answer that question without "full disclosure"...without knowing everything that's taking place behind the scenes along with the stuff that's being televised in public.

Consequently, "sincerity" is something that I deliberately leave out of my evaluations. Instead, I wait for the "revealing slip" that suggests where their loyalties really lie.

For example, when Brazil's Lula paid a visit to Washington, D.C. a few months ago, that made it clear to me that whatever hopes ordinary Brazilians placed in Lula's "sincerity" are doomed. The only purpose of such a visit was to reassure the emperor of Lula's "reliability" and "trustworthiness".

Chavez has not made such a visit; perhaps he's "really sincere" or perhaps the time is not yet ripe. We have no way of knowing.

What we can always do is consult history for similar examples.

The "track record" is extraordinarily grim.

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[Bolshevika]

The very way in which you phrase your question betrays your complete lack of Marxist understanding. A Marxist might ask "what is your opinion of the class struggle presently taking place in Venezuela?". Or perhaps "what are the present class relations in Venezuela?".

All right you picky bastard. Phrasing things in that way would probably confuse the hell out of 90% of the members of the board.


But the Leninist thirst for a "great leader" is rarely quenched. Without one, you are utterly lost.

We need strong leaders to guide us, leaders we can trust to care for us and fight for us, and who are knowlegable in the cause.

There is never a shortage of leaders. They always emerge in times of revolution. A revolution without a leader or known representative will always fail.


To the actual question: Hugo Chavez is the latest incarnation of the "populist despot"...a common figure in developing capitalist economies. The proto-type was Napoleon III. There have been many since then. Even the U.S. has produced them--for example, Huey P. Long of Louisiana (1928-1935).

Chavez ran on a somewhat populist platform when he was elected, but at this moment I can see he is definetly a Leftist, obviously inspired by Fidel. I see him meeting with comrade Fidel a lot more than with Washington buddy. Why? Because he has Washington by the balls with the oil.


What they have in common, aside from swollen egos, is the introduction of reforms necessary to the further development of modern capitalism. This may include wide-spread public education, a public health program, the construction of modern roads and bridges, the development of electric power, land reform, and other measures that "clear away" the muck of pre-capitalist underdevelopment.

I disagree. You see, the United States does not want the pre-capitalist nations to develop into industrialize capitalist nations because it depends on their labour for profit here in America. Hence, I doubt Chavez wants Venezuela to become capitalist.


The old ruling classes react predictabily..."communist tyranny is at hand, blah, blah, blah!". What they really resent is the "writing on the wall"...the fact that their "ancient" privileges are going to be lost and that new and much more vigorous capitalists will rise to take their places "in the sun".

I think they resent that in a country with so many resources, Chavez is nationalising industries. The reason their privileges are being taken away is because Chavez is cracking down on their exploitation of the illiterate, indigenous, peasentry etc.


But what of the "Bolivarian Circles"...the neighborhood groups of poor and working class Venezuelans? Today they support Chavez in his struggle with the "old oligarchs". When the oligarchs are defeated (if that happens), what will be the fate of the "Circles" then?

I guess Chavez will continue on with his socialistic reforms, until Venezuela becomes similar to Cuba. Then from there I suppose he will still support Bolivarian ideas that will hopefully spread throughout Latin America. And, well you know the rest. Bolivar was a staunch defender of republicanism, so I guess Chavez will support this as well.


A different outcome is, of course, possible. Depending on the militancy and class consciousness of the "Circles", they could turn against Chavez after the oligarchs are gone...demanding real power for the ordinary people of Venezuela.

The chances of this are extremely slim. The people of Venezuela depend on the Chavezista government for certain needs, to commit political suicide like this would be ridiculous on their behalf.

Let's say you are right, and they do suceed in Anarchist revolution. What do you think will happen? The yankees and Venezuelan exilie/fanatics will be waiting for them right at Caracas square, you acknowlege this.

Even Chavez, he runs a pretty good central government (although the bourgeois parties are protected by the Venezuelan constitution) was almost ousted by the yanks and counter-revolutionaries. Luckily Chavez has the support of the peasants, who overwhelmed the ruling class and put Chavez back in power.


"Great man" worship adds nothing to our understanding.

Chavez has two epcot center spheres dangling between his legs. Do you know all of the comments and actions he commits against the imperialists? He is staunchly anti-imperialist (like all the great liberators who defeated Spanish imperialism) and seems to be anti-capitalist or on the borderline. I see very good potential in him.

[redstar2000]

We need strong leaders to guide us, leaders we can trust to care for us and fight for us, and who are knowledgeable in the cause.

Yes, "daddy" will "look after us" as long as we are "obedient".

Aren't you the least little bit embarrassed by such a naked display of servility?

What's the difference between what you are saying here and what any fascist would say about his "great leader"?


...but at this moment I can see he is definitely a Leftist, obviously inspired by Fidel.

Perhaps...and perhaps not. Neither you nor I can see into his mind and discover his real convictions. It's quite possible that he has none, beyond a vision of his own central importance.


You see, the United States does not want the pre-capitalist nations to develop into industrialized capitalist nations because it depends on their labour for profit here in America.

It does not matter what the United States "wants"...the laws of capitalism insist on development and industrialization without regard for individual preferences...according to a fellow by the name of Marx (you may have heard of him).


I guess Chavez will continue on with his socialistic reforms, until Venezuela becomes similar to Cuba.

You are a very "bad" Leninist. How can Venezuela become "socialist" without a "vanguard" party?


Chavez has two epcot center spheres dangling between his legs.

Must be hard for him to walk...or even stand up, eh? :lol:

Seriously, may I suggest to you that testicles are not really a measure of political merit...or even "manhood", for that matter. Courage is a gender-independent trait (as far as we know). Political merit is judged by criteria that is also gender-independent.


you picky bastard

Guilty, your honor. *shows total lack of remorse*

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[John_Wayne]

Mexicans love the USA. They can come here and pick beans, tomatoes, oranges.

Any problems the mexicans have are self-inflicted. Any basic religious course will show you that lying and stealing is wrong. So what's the problem? Why does everyone blame the good ole stars and stripes for third world corruption? Why can't these people understand right and wrong?

[redstar2000]

Why can't these people follow basic moral instructions?

Why can't you write a post that has some remote relevance to the thread topic?

Or do you think that Hugo Chavez is "Mexican"?

Or were you thinking of the late farmworkers' organizer Caesar Chavez?

Why can't you pull your head out of your ass long enough to see what's happening, Mr. "Wayne"?

Dumbass cappie!

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[John_Wayne]

I knew a guy like you back when I was in the service

You know I did my time. I see that you haven't.

[Urban Rubble]

Wow, you come in, make a statement that has no relevance to the topic at all (much less makes any sense) then you act like RedStar is the idiot ?

Wow.

[redstar2000]

You know I did my time. I see that you haven't.

Of course I haven't. Why should I put my ass on the line for U.S. imperialism?

Only a complete fool would do that.

Like you.

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[Morpheus]

Chavez's government declared anarchy "terrorism" (http://www.nodo50.org/ellibertario/seccioningles.htm#law) and outlawed it, punishable by 1-3 years in prison. Most of his reforms have done very little to help poor people. So screw him, and the rival oligarchy too.

Venezualan Anarchists Online (http://www.nodo50.org/ellibertario/)

[BRIN]

Venesuala is the forth largest producer of oil to the US isn't it?
Venesuala is also pretty high in OPEC? (i think)
why the fuck doesn't Chavez export less oil and make oil prices realy high to screw the US?

Thats a question to ask Chavez.

Aside from that i think Chavez is a good leftish leader,he's trying to change Venesuala for the good but there are too many middle class people there so progress is slow.

[Bolshevika]

Screw the anarchists. They only get in the way of progress. However, they should be left alone, unless they wish to revolt, then exile or prison for them. I see them as potential allies, simply burning a stage in their ideology.

Anyway, you guys take so many things out of context, according to the article, here's what it states the law is : “Anyone with the intention to terrify and cause anarchy...” , this means anyone who wants to cause disorder and chaos is subject to punishment. Sounds fair to me. Anarchist's are against disorder and chaos, no? So then you have nothing to worry about.

I guess Chavezs' literacy programs, laws promoting fair employment and trade, attempts at nationalizing health care, and other things have done nothing for the poor? You must consider the bourgeois have much influence on Venezuelas government.

I know Anarchists are very much against Bolivarian ideas, so of course Chavez is a target for them for not completely abolishing the government. They are unwilling to compromise and spread idealism amongst the people. They are just as idealist and naive as the religious.

Brin

The reason Chavez doesn't put more pressure on oil trade with the U.S. is because the Venezuelan economy will completely collapse. Their economy is mostly made up of oil trade. Chavez has done plenty to fight imperialism, however, Venezuela suffers from a bourgeois democracy and consititution which restricts fellow Bolivarian comrades from making the right decisions.

[Sandino111]

John Wayne you need to take a History class! I live in California and I have never heard of Mexicans picking beans,lol... what an idiot :lol:

[redstar2000]

I guess Chavez's literacy programs, laws promoting fair employment and trade, attempts at nationalizing health care, and other things have done nothing for the poor?

That's not what Morpheus said. He said this...


Most of his reforms have done very little to help poor people.

"Very little" is not the same as "nothing".

If someone does something to "help the poor", does that make them a "leftist", a "revolutionary", a "great man"?

If so, the number of "revolutionaries" out there is vastly greater than anyone on this board has anticipated.

Harry Truman and Hubert Humphrey were in favor of "fair employment". Hillary Clinton was in favor of nationalizing health services. And George W. Bush is in favor of more education for poor people...that's what he says, anyway.

Well, we live in the U$A and it's not at all difficult for us to see through such bourgeois pretensions and lies. We don't live in Venezuela and we have little or no idea of what is happening "on the ground" there. How much of what Chavez has done has really made a significant difference is extraordinarily difficult for an outsider to determine...particularly since every source of information from that country is going to come from someone "with an agenda".

The truth will come out over a period of time...there's no reason to "rush to judgment" on Hugo Chavez, much less to start gushing about the "great man" with "huge balls".


Screw the anarchists. They only get in the way of progress.

:lol:

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[Bianconero]

Chavez is a radical reformist. As long as he doesn't break with bourgeois democracy, counter-revolution will always be an easy option for the reactionary powers inside and outside Venezuela.

In spite of this, we should not join the pig's choir, who are already plotting Chavez' downfall.

[Guest1]

I think bainconero's analysis of chavez fits pretty well with how I see him. I lean towards supporting Chavez, but will withold judgement. What I will definitely do is stand against the American interference.

[Red Louisiana]

REDSTAR:

It's good picky plicks like you only have time to ***** about imperfect revolutions online...Doing the least against our cause.

[Guest1]

it's good assholes like you don't read the posts and learn enough to get anywhere near harmingt he revolution.

he never said don't support it, he said be skeptical. that's the only way we can avoid assholes like Blair, who calls himself a Socialist. Be skeptical.

[Urban Rubble]

NO !! YOU MUST BLINDLY SUPPORT ANYONE REOMTELY SOCIALIST OR YOU ARE A HARM TO THE CAUSE !!!

My bullshit detector just exploded leaving a healthy sized chunk of shrapnel in my funny bone. I will be off to the hospital now.

[Guest1]

lol, I hope you'll be alright urban :P whatever you do, don't read red louisiana's post out loud, might explode a second time.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Tony blair says hes left wing, what a load of bollox, he supported G W Bush is that fucking war.

My parents think Tony Blair is great and vote for him, PISSES ME OFF!

[Fidelbrand]

sorry folks, but i just cldn't hesitate to post this again.. enjoy..

As for Chavez, how is he actually doing? Is Venezuela benefiting from his leadership?

[redstar2000]

REDSTAR:

It's good picky plicks like you only have time to ***** about imperfect revolutions online...Doing the least against our cause.

I'll reply to this when I get the chance to figure out what the poor guy is trying to say.

I've never been called a "good picky plick" before. :lol:

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[Cassius Clay]

First of all for Redstar.

''You speak of your `devotion' to me.... I would advise you to discard the `principle' of devotion to persons. It is not the Bolshevik way. Be devoted to the working class, its Party, its state. That is a fine and useful thing. But do not confuse it with devotion to persons, this vain and useless bauble of weak-minded intellectuals." (J. V. Stalin: Works, Volume 13; Moscow; 1955; p. 20).''

''Never under any circumstances would our workers now tolerate power in the hands of one person. With us personages of the greatest authority are reduced to nonentities, become mere ciphers, as soon as the masses of the workers lose confidence in them." (J. V. Stalin: ibid.; p. 107-08, 109, 113).''

''But... the important thing resides in the fact that the book has a tendency to engrave on the minds of Soviet children (and people in general) the personality cult of leaders, of infallible heroes. This is dangerous and detrimental. The theory of `heroes' and the `crowd' is not a Bolshevik, but a Social-Revolutionary(13) theory....''

Josef Stalin.

Now either Redstar is more of a Leninist than he realises or as usual he wont budge from his own pre-concieved ideas and as such invents things to suit a particular agenda.

Anyway.

Hugo Charvez is not a Communist. What Hugo Charvez represents is a increasingly common occurance of the bourgesie in small countries getting fed up with being Washington's puppet. And who can really blame them? Venzualian oil for the Venzualians and all. This should be supported. The people that want to overthrow Charvez are the folkes who have helped bleed that coutnry dry for decades, it's partly because they believe their own propaganda about Charvez being a Communist and also that there is a genuine threat to their interests. Being Washington's lacky does have it's rewards.

Charvez should be supported for leading what effectively is a attempt at a National-Democratic revolution. he should also be supported for the various 'reforms' he's put in place aswell as standing in solidarity with victims of Imperialism from Afghanistan to Cuba. Dont make him a Communist I'm afraid.

What needs to happen in Venzuala now is a continuation of this revolution against the various assortment of forces that want Venzuala to remain a lackey of U$ Imperialism. THey aren't traitors, they are just representing their class. Army officers, landowners, oil CEO's and media barrons. All the 'conservative' folkes should be got rid of. By firing squard if need be.

Yet Charvez is hesitating at doing this. It may be because he feels the forces he can muster aren't strong enough and he will end up like Allende. Or because he's not really that interested in even carrying out that greater reform for the people of Venezuala. I saw a documentary a while back which followed Charvex around the country, while the people said they opposed the coup attemtps against him and were still quite pro-Charvex there was a rising feeling of 'how much has really changed over the last two years?'.

Charvez and those around him need to learn from Chile thirty years ago. They need to carry out class struggle against those not interested in making their country independent. After that they can talk about a Socialist revolution. But because they aren't Communists they wont do this, not even the first bit effectively. Beleving that the various people who have allready tried overthrowing them once will come on side because otherwise it will make them traitors will make sure that they end up at the bottom of the presidential palace dead. There not traitors, just represnting their class. Soemthing which Charvez doesn't understand.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 04:47 AM
why the fuck doesn't Chavez export less oil and make oil prices realy high to screw the US?


Wow brin you're a brainchild! The mere fact you don't even know how to SPELL VENEZUELA tells me you know nothing of the country, its people, and especially that IDIOT chavez! F*ck chavez! I hope he gets ASSASINATED!!!!

[FistFullOfSteel]

why is he bad then?

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 05:11 PM
why is he bad then?
WHY is he bad? Well, lets see...his BEST FRIEND is that PIG castro. He wants to model the entire country of venezuela after that piece of sh*t island of cuba! He wants to BE just like his little buddy castro. Anyone who remotely disagrees with THAT FACT needs to have his head examined, then removed! My ex-girlfriend is down there right now and she says it hasn't been that bad in a LONG TIME. Last time I was down there (in 2000), people still liked chavez, but their opinions were starting to turn...much like it was when fidel marched into the plaza. Shortly after attaining power, like all these scumbag dictators, he decided to go back on his campaign promises and screw the country. Lets face it folks...the only one that pineapple face chavez is out to take care of is himself!. From his high-priced suits to his PALACE! Much like his crooked counterpart, he wants to install his OWN brand of government, and screw the rest!

Gee lets see, they needed 2.4 million signatures for a referendum to kick chavez the hell out of there, and so far, despite chavez' attempts to derail the process, they've managed to get FIVE million (5,000,000) signatures, NOT including those living abroad!!! If he is truly FOR the people, he will step down once all this gets confirmed and sorted out by the independant mediators. However, since he always STATED he wasn't going ANYWHERE no matter WHAT the majority wanted, you'll ALL get to see the kind of "man" he truly is!!!

This garbage about him having big balls? You all should take a trip down there and see what those "balls" have done for ALL the people...not just a certain few!

But don't take MY word for it!

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 9 2003, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 9 2003, 05:08 PM)
[email protected] 8 2003, 04:47 AM
why the fuck doesn&#39;t Chavez export less oil and make oil prices realy high to screw the US?


Wow brin you&#39;re a brainchild&#33; The mere fact you don&#39;t even know how to SPELL VENEZUELA tells me you know nothing of the country, its people, and especially that IDIOT chavez&#33; F*ck chavez&#33; I hope he gets ASSASINATED&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b]
If u r a fucking genius, then reply ur devastated brainless post ..

here : http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=19726&p=305537 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=Post&CODE=06&f=8&t=19726&p=305537)

:lol: guess who&#39;s the gutless & maybe perverted... brainchild&#33;&#33;?? :P

Also, if a minor typo can ignite ur pathetic attitude to insult someone and to give generalised bullshit on his/her understanding of Venezuela, then u r a disgrace of ur species ( if u r a human beng&#33;? :rolleyes: )

[FistFullOfSteel]

good information on the bolivarian circles (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=3971)

read.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 06:18 PM
good information on the bolivarian circles (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=3971)

read.
Jo tack, Hugey~&#33; :)

[FistFullOfSteel]

no problem :)

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by Fidelbrand+Dec 9 2003, 05:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fidelbrand @ Dec 9 2003, 05:46 PM):lol: guess who&#39;s the gutless & maybe perverted... brainchild&#33;&#33;?? :P[/b]
Wow..gutless AND perverted? Your mother must be "proud"


[email protected] 9 2003, 05:46 PM
Also, if a minor typo can ignite ur pathetic attitude to insult someone and to give generalised bullshit on his/her understanding of Venezuela, then u r a disgrace of ur species ( if u r a human beng&#33;? :rolleyes: )
Nice attempt at a comeback&#33; BTW, what the hell is a "human beng"? dont skip school as much in the future, and maybe you&#39;ll be able to keep up junior&#33;

BTW, I&#39;ll continue to insult those that assault me. Its a 180 degree turn from my previous policy of sitting here and absorbing insults without responding in kind&#33;&#33; I think you call it "an eye for an eye"?

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

U.S. backed coup attempt?? Wow...that is the BIGGEST PANTLOAD I&#39;ve ever read in my life&#33; Next thing you&#39;ll try to say that the U.S. actually CAUSED that so-called coup?&#33; Learn your facts BEFORE you even call it a coup attempt. Learn WHY this chavez pig stepped down and where he actually went during and WHY the military ALLOWED him to come back before assuming anything&#33;

Does the name GAVIRIA mean anything to you people? If it does...then you&#39;ll realize HOW I know all these things&#33; Family relatives say the darnest things when they&#39;re in love.

But don&#39;t take MY word for it&#33;

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 01:44 AM
Mexicans love the USA. They can come here and pick beans, tomatoes, oranges.

Any problems the mexicans have are self-inflicted. Any basic religious course will show you that lying and stealing is wrong. So what&#39;s the problem? Why does everyone blame the good ole stars and stripes for third world corruption? Why can&#39;t these people understand right and wrong?
the mexicans love it when they stand on the street corners waiting for a job, a truck comes and picks them up and makes them work all day long, and then somehow the police find out, catch them and deport them, and then they never get their pay.

[jermicide]

They really love it when their own boss calls immigration on them so they dont have to pay them.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 9 2003, 08:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 9 2003, 08:56 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 05:46 PM
:lol: guess who&#39;s the gutless & maybe perverted... brainchild&#33;&#33;?? :P
Wow..gutless AND perverted? Your mother must be "proud"


[email protected] 9 2003, 05:46 PM
Also, if a minor typo can ignite ur pathetic attitude to insult someone and to give generalised bullshit on his/her understanding of Venezuela, then u r a disgrace of ur species ( if u r a human beng&#33;? :rolleyes: )
Nice attempt at a comeback&#33; BTW, what the hell is a "human beng"? dont skip school as much in the future, and maybe you&#39;ll be able to keep up junior&#33;

BTW, I&#39;ll continue to insult those that assault me. Its a 180 degree turn from my previous policy of sitting here and absorbing insults without responding in kind&#33;&#33; I think you call it "an eye for an eye"? [/b]
what abt my mother when i said u r gutless n perverted? :D (mind ur words when i m not insulting ur family, but only ur mentality ;) ) Only brainless wanders would expand the debate into all areas and start insulting other&#39;s families... ( Learn this lesson, little boy. ;) )

Little boy, u r trapped. the typo i set was to check whether u only concentrates on others&#39; typos like a kindergarten schoolkid.... now, the answer is obvious, comrades. :lol: "tu eres muy tonto, amigo&#33;"

So u must have had shitty experiences back then (being bullied and staying silent?? :huh: ), well, we are all sorry for that... but did BRIN insulted u ?

[redstar2000]

First of all for Redstar.

"You speak of your &#39;devotion&#39; to me.... I would advise you to discard the &#39;principle&#39; of devotion to persons. It is not the Bolshevik way. Be devoted to the working class, its Party, its state. That is a fine and useful thing. But do not confuse it with devotion to persons, this vain and useless bauble of weak-minded intellectuals." (J. V. Stalin: Works, Volume 13; Moscow; 1955; p. 20).

"Never under any circumstances would our workers now tolerate power in the hands of one person. With us personages of the greatest authority are reduced to nonentities, become mere ciphers, as soon as the masses of the workers lose confidence in them." (J. V. Stalin: ibid.; p. 107-08, 109, 113).

"But... the important thing resides in the fact that the book has a tendency to engrave on the minds of Soviet children (and people in general) the personality cult of leaders, of infallible heroes. This is dangerous and detrimental. The theory of &#39;heroes&#39; and the &#39;crowd&#39; is not a Bolshevik, but a Social-Revolutionary(13) theory...."

Josef Stalin.

Now either Redstar is more of a Leninist than he realises or as usual he won&#39;t budge from his own pre-conceived ideas and as such invents things to suit a particular agenda.

Nice quotes, Cassius. Did you have to spend very much time in the archives to dig them out? Did the dust aggravate your sinus condition any?

Has it occurred to you that there might be a "minor discrepancy" between words and deeds on occasion? When a mindless troll like "Castro Sucks" relieves himself on the pages of our board, do we take his "love of freedom" as anything more than reactionary effluvia?

I don&#39;t see how you can deny that the "cult of personality" has been an outstanding characteristic of Leninist regimes in the 20th century. It seems to be part of the package. Occasional verbal criticisms of this all-pervading trait don&#39;t appear to have had much effect.

Bolshevika, being young and "unsophisticated", blurts out his sentiments in a very honest way. He makes no attempt to disguise his lust for a "great leader" with "big balls"...let&#39;s hope he doesn&#39;t fall into the clutches of some con-man like Bob Avakian or the Rev. Moon.

You, on the other hand, who "knows better", would like to "distance" yourself from such gross "groupie-ism"...it&#39;s, well, embarrassing.

But I would suggest that your own growing clarity about "great leader worship" cannot be satisfied, in the long run, with a few scraps from the archives. Whatever Stalin might have, on rare occasion, said against "great leader worship", everyone knows what the reality was there.

You know it too.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Urban Rubble]

CASTRO SUCKS

You just typed out a few paragraphs for no reason at all, want me to sum up what you just said "I don&#39;t like Chavez because he is friends with Castro".

Don&#39;t you have any arguements that aren&#39;t pure rhetoric ? You should try including some facts when you post, because you never seem to say a damn thing.

[Bolshevika]

Now now Redstar, I don&#39;t believe in hero worship, however I acknowlege the need for a strong leader. I don&#39;t see how this makes me a "Stalin worshipper" as you make me, and other Leninists out to be.

I think much of the love for Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Fidel, Ho Chi Minh, Che etc by the oppressed is not &#39;hero worship&#39; or &#39;fear&#39;, it is the impact these people have had on the lives of the masses, making them &#39;father like&#39;. Russia before and after Stalin is quite different, and Khrushchevs &#39;deStalinization&#39; affected the masses in a negative way. There is nostalgia for the &#39;good old&#39; days all over the world.

[Guest1]

nostalgia for the good old days...

doesn&#39;t that go against everything revolution is supposed to stand for?

forwards, my friend. onwards forever to victory, not backwards forever to oppression.

it is one thing to "like a leader", and quite another to "need a leader". you need a leader, it seems. any one will do, as long as he&#39;s a strong leader, you like those alot. you want one with balls, one that&#39;ll tell you how bad the people have been... naughty... naughty people... beat them into shape... spank them over and over again until their cheeks go raw... ooooh....

[Bolshevika]

Che y marijuana, you just made me erect.

On a more serious note: when I say "nostalgia" I mean nostalgia and want for the revolutionary days, where the people lived under a democratic socialist environment. Yes forwards we must go, but must remember and learn from past experiences. Completely ignoring our sucesses and downfalls is wrong.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 10 2003, 03:17 AM
Don&#39;t you have any arguements that aren&#39;t pure rhetoric ? You should try including some facts when you post, because you never seem to say a damn thing.
Wow...YOU again? And with the SAME bumbling "argument" about my mot coming up with facts. Grow up little one.....bring something fresh to the table next time.

Oh and fidelbran:the mere fact you&#39;ve equated the phrase"your mother must be proud of you" to an insult, tells me you have absolutely NO CAPACITY for written comprehension. "Asi que el tonto aqui eres TU, estupido"&#33;

[redstar2000]

Now now Redstar, I don&#39;t believe in hero worship, however I acknowledge the need for a strong leader. I don&#39;t see how this makes me a "Stalin worshiper" as you make me, and other Leninists out to be.

Well, I suppose the crucial aspect is that you seem to believe that proletarian revolution is "impossible" without "a strong leader"...who, in the course of time inevitably becomes "the great leader", "the huge-balled one", "the sun shines out of his ass", etc.

Nor do I mean to be understood as limiting this matter to Stalin...the same sort of nonsense surrounds Trotsky, Mao, Ho, Tito, and even the Albanian pipsqueak Enver Hoxha.


...it is the impact these people have had on the lives of the masses, making them &#39;father like&#39;.

Yes, I know. Prior to World War I, it was common for Russian peasants to regard the Czar as the "Little Father" (the "Big Father" was "God"&#33;).

Have you entered radical politics looking for a father?

The cult-leader Jim Jones insisted that his followers call him "Dad".


There is nostalgia for the &#39;good old&#39; days all over the world.

Indeed there is...it&#39;s one of the main ideological appeals of fascism. Just look at the posts of "Castro_Sucks" for example.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Urban Rubble]

Wow...YOU again? And with the SAME bumbling "argument" about my mot coming up with facts. Grow up little one.....bring something fresh to the table next time.

You act as if your habit of arguing without any facts is no big deal. I repeat myself because you continue to spew rhetoric. Again I say, debate with facts. The fact that you are in your 30&#39;s is either really sad or really funny... or both. Yeah, I&#39;ll go with both.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:59 PM
Che y marijuana, you just made me erect.
I know... you naughty, naughty communist...

your leader&#39;s very disappointed in you... he wants to discipline you...

the knocking on your door is your appointment...

over and over... *SPANK*... and over... raw, bleeding...

over

and

over

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 11 2003, 12:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 11 2003, 12:36 AM)
Urban [email protected]Dec 10 2003, 03:17 AM
Don&#39;t you have any arguements that aren&#39;t pure rhetoric ? You should try including some facts when you post, because you never seem to say a damn thing.
Wow...YOU again? And with the SAME bumbling "argument" about my mot coming up with facts. Grow up little one.....bring something fresh to the table next time.

Oh and fidelbran:the mere fact you&#39;ve equated the phrase"your mother must be proud of you" to an insult, tells me you have absolutely NO CAPACITY for written comprehension. "Asi que el tonto aqui eres TU, estupido"&#33; [/b]
well,, what do u expect me to say when i m debating with u but u pulled my mother into the debate? so , u r out of good intention? asshole&#33;? :D

U criticised Urban Rubble for saying the same old thing, well.. for u ,,, it&#39;s really the same old shits that u say with no evidence and thesis. I used the word" little boy" for u, then u called Urban "little one" ... do u have enough brain cells to think of another word???


hahahAAA~~ trash x N&#33; :ph34r: :lol:

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 11 2003, 04:21 AM

Wow...YOU again? And with the SAME bumbling "argument" about my mot coming up with facts. Grow up little one.....bring something fresh to the table next time.

You act as if your habit of arguing without any facts is no big deal. I repeat myself because you continue to spew rhetoric. Again I say, debate with facts. The fact that you are in your 30&#39;s is either really sad or really funny... or both. Yeah, I&#39;ll go with both.
in his 30s... with this mentality&#33;&#33;?? shit....... :blink:

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn. Truly, you&#39;re a bunch of bumbling idiots&#33; Any questions?&#33;

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 07:21 AM
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn. Truly, you&#39;re a bunch of bumbling idiots&#33; Any questions?&#33;
You often talk about how people are closed minded and don’t discuss thing properly, what is this an example of?

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 07:24 AM
You often talk about how people are closed minded and don’t discuss thing properly, what is this an example of?
Its an example of me not taking the BULLSHIT that these uneducated little idiots dish out anymore&#33; You know, fight fire with fire? I&#39;ve sat idly by long enough, absorbing these insult without so much as a vulgar response...and now...I&#39;ve just changed gears&#33;

From now on, if you dish it out...you&#39;d best be able to take it without crying or wetting your pants. I&#39;ll not deviate from my civil debates with those others that DO actually care to add or debate something respectfully. All others can fry in hell&#33;

[Fidelbrand]

Je... u r a bloody psycho~~~ :blink:

Civil debates? u call a member "brainchild" when he just made a typo and concluded that he knows jack shit about Venezuela when he just spelt it wrong..? Hey~~~ .. THIS IS A CIVILISED ACT. (New theory or something? :P )

We don&#39;t tolerate shits too. Don&#39;t forget that... if not, don&#39;t cry when u gets ur ass spanked out of che-lives.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 08:27 AM
u call a member "brainchild" when he just made a typo and concluded that he knows jack shit about Venezuela when he just spelt it wrong..?
BEFORE you open your mouth one more time and display your ignorance, why don&#39;t you go back and REREAD what he wrote that caused me to call him a brainchild&#33; Until you realize exactly WHAT he said to deserve that name, don&#39;t bother posting to me again&#33;

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 11 2003, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 11 2003, 04:23 PM)
[email protected] 11 2003, 08:27 AM
u call a member "brainchild" when he just made a typo and concluded that he knows jack shit about Venezuela when he just spelt it wrong..?
BEFORE you open your mouth one more time and display your ignorance, why don&#39;t you go back and REREAD what he wrote that caused me to call him a brainchild&#33; Until you realize exactly WHAT he said to deserve that name, don&#39;t bother posting to me again&#33; [/b]
becos he said somethin like " why the fuck ........?" then u r angry with him &#33;&#33;?? that&#39;s the reason?

don&#39;t make us laugh, man.. :ph34r:

[ibram]

Will Marxist friends let me know whether Chavez's victory could be regarded as the only successful example of transition to socialism through elections/parliamentary road?

[Bud Struggle]

ibram, don't open up this old stuff.

Start your own thread if you have something to say. Thanks in advance. :)

[Edit] Though it's interesting to read what RedStar had to say. Seems like a pretty interesting guy. Is he still around? If he is--can we ask him back? Now he's what I consider a COMMIE. :D

[Kovacs]

I've deep suspicion of strong-man socialism led by personality cults. That said, Chavez has done good things for his country and The Revolution Will Not Be Televised had me at turns moved to deep rage at the shenanigans of the rightists and a lump in my throat at the reactions of the Chavez apparatus

[danyboy27]

this thread is over 6 year old!

[Glenn Beck]

http://i.imgur.com/DHocA.jpg

Can we get a thread lock please?

[Comrade Anarchist]

Chavez is doing some good but he wont last long without the love of his people which he is losing every time he yells some conspiracy against the world. Yes the U.S. is probably flying spy planes over him and they are building up troops in Colombia to put pressure on him but he should focus on helping his people not worrying about foreign problems. And this is just my point of few but it looks like he is taking just a little bit too much power here and instead of trying to build the dwindling country's infrastructure he is using it on a tour almost to stay in the spot light.

[Jazzratt]

Check the date. Don't bring back old threads. Yadda yadda.

Closeded.