Florida pastor burns another Koran.

[Os Cangaceiros]

GAINESVILLE, Fla. -- A controversial Florida pastor held another Koran-burning ceremony outside his church to protest the imprisonment of a Christian clergyman in Iran, The Gainesville Sun reported.

Jones, who made headlines worldwide by videotaping a similar Koran-burning ceremony in March 2011, burned several copies of the Islamic holy book alongside an image depicting the Muslim prophet Muhammad on Saturday evening.

About 20 people gathered for the ceremony outside the Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., during which Jones demanded the release of Youcef Nadarkhani, an Iranian pastor, currently in jail for apostasy after converting from Islam to Christianity.

Moments after the burning, the Gainesville Fire Rescue issued a citation against the church, claiming it did not have the required authorization to burn books.

The church will be fined $271, including court costs, fire chief Gene Prince told the newspaper.

The pastor, who is the head of the church, went ahead with the controversial ceremony despite reports that the Pentagon urged him not to, as it could put US soldiers in Afghanistan and elsewhere at risk.

The 2011 Koran-burning ceremony unleashed days of bloody protests in Afghanistan, during which an attack on a United Nations compound left seven staff members dead.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/florida_pastor_terry_jones_holds_3cgdTJx0sa96davSX McLEO

*sigh*

[NewLeft]

Attention seeking pastor..

[Krano]

Now the religion of peace can show just how peaceful they are :rolleyes:

[Railyon]

Instantly reminded me of this: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1868808&postcount=87

[Bostana]

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/outofline/09.08KORAN.gif

[Althusser]

Watch all the muslims get pissed off now.

[Susurrus]

Easy to kick a hornet's nest when you aren't the one being stung.

[Nox]

>Implying there's anything wrong with burning that filthy piece of shit

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The good Reverend Jones was manager of an off base US military church in Germany. He was fired for some sort of "financial irregularities", I don't know the details but it seems likely he tried to embezzle church funds. Not rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's, etc.

When he announced plans for the first Koran burning last year, half the congregation of his church left.

He set himself up as an expert in Islam being a Satanic cult.He wrote a book "exposing" this dangerous anti-Christian belief.Last year the BBC did a (perhaps unintentionally) hilarious interview with Rev Jones..Jones, despite writing a book on Islam, knew literally nothing about this religion, including the fact the Muslims pray 5 times a day, "Allah" is the Arab word for god, etc.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009zklg

The guy's a petty con man who found an avenue for self promotion. Shit rises, as the saying goes.

[WanderingCactus]

>Implying there's anything wrong with burning that filthy piece of shit

>Failing to recognize why this is so incredibly ignorant.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Islamophobia on RevLeft. :confused:

[Krano]

Islamophobia on RevLeft. :confused:
Cruelty and violence in the Qur'an (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)

Intolerance in the Qur'an (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html)

Injustice in the Qur'an (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/inj/long.html)

[WanderingCactus]

Someone call Sam Harris. He's perfect for this thread of nonsense.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Cruelty and violence in the Qur'an (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)

Intolerance in the Qur'an (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html)

Injustice in the Qur'an (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/inj/long.html)
You think this Christian fundamentalist's religion is any better? This isn't an atheist criticizing all religions, this is a Christian fundamentalist engaging in deliberate religious sectarianism to stir people up, by promoting intolerance of all Muslims (which the Left shouldn't support) and trying to provoke a reaction by Islamic fundamentalists (which the Left shouldn't support).

[Misanthrope]

It's not the fact that Islam is reactionary, so the Pastor should be applauded. It's the fact that the Pastor is merely kindling religious and racial tensions. It's not as if he is denouncing Islam on theoretical basis or anything, he is trying to anger Muslims in the Middle East. Imperialist occupation of their holy land angers them enough. Although, yeah 20 people (in fucking florida not to mention) burning the Koran isn't really news but this is nothing to encourage..



>Implying there's anything wrong with burning that filthy piece of shit

fucking internet culture thinking it's okay to "troll" in real life

[gorillafuck]

Now the religion of peace can show just how peaceful they are :rolleyes:
>Implying there's anything wrong with burning that filthy piece of shit
Watch all the muslims get pissed off now.do you even understand the whole entire concept of context?

this is bigotry intended at marginalizing and making unwelcome a minority group which in America has been under attack by propaganda, government watch, physical violence, ostracization, you fucking name it. that's what this is.

your reactions are equivalent to if people started burning Syrian flags and urging for an invasion of Syria, and reacting by saying "gee well I mean all they're doing is standing against the Syrian ruling class!"

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Someone call Sam Harris. He's perfect for this thread of nonsense.

Yes, let's call a religious fundamentalist come and pretend he's above religious folly, expect him to justify torture of terrorist suspects next and thereafter drone on and on about the "threat of Islamification" and whatever is in vogue with the New Atheist these days. He can shove his New Atheism and inane belief in reincarnation up his arse.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The point here isn't what the Koran says, all religions have their share of inanity and (if taken as religions instead of as a moral way to live one's life) are reactionary. Read the Old Testament sometime. The point is that "Islamophobia" is being used to mobilize the US and European population in the service of imperialism.

How is burning someone's "holy book" contribute to human liberation? How does it fight superstition?

The culture wars are for liberals and imperialists.

[NewLeft]

Yes, let's call a religious fundamentalist come and pretend he's above religious folly, expect him to justify torture of terrorist suspects next and thereafter drone on and on about the "threat of Islamification" and whatever is in vogue with the New Atheist these days. He can shove his New Atheism and inane belief in reincarnation up his arse.
That's why he's perfect for this thread.

[l'Enfermé]

It's an improvement over burning witches, at least. The victims of shit like this, though, aren't American soldiers occupying Muslim countries, Muslims whose feelings were hurt, but Christian minorities in Muslim countries, who will face even more persecution(and in many cases, death) because of acts like these. But then again, what do pastors in Florida care if they endanger the lives of persecuted Christian minorities in countries like Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, or Sudan.

Ah, bloody clergymen...perhaps it is they that should be burned. But of course, if their fairy-tales are true, they are to expect a lot of burning in the afterlife.

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

Is this what Jesus would do?:laugh:

[l'Enfermé]

by promoting intolerance of all Muslims (which the Left shouldn't support)
This is completely true and sadly, sometimes ignored by the more "militant" atheists. Promoting intolerance of Islam, Christianity and other harmful superstitions(because why should that filth be tolerated by reasonable people?)is what the Left should support, not promoting the intolerance of Muslims, Christians, etc.

A Christian would say, "Blame the sin, not the sinner".

[Althusser]

I care for neither Islam or Christianity. I am not on that pastor's side. I reacted the way I did because it seemed to me as though the point of this thread was about the burning of the actual Koran, as if it is a really terrible thing to do, rather than the hypocrisy of one religious twat, inciting terror from other religious twats.

I hope you can agree that if an atheist came out with a bible, koran, and torah... as well as a lighter and kerosene, we could all rejoice and enjoy the destruction of ancient texts that keeps human beings in chains to this day.

[WanderingCactus]

Yes, let's call a religious fundamentalist come and pretend he's above religious folly, expect him to justify torture of terrorist suspects next and thereafter drone on and on about the "threat of Islamification" and whatever is in vogue with the New Atheist these days. He can shove his New Atheism and inane belief in reincarnation up his arse.

Yes. To be clear, that was my point.

[Althusser]

This is completely true and sadly, sometimes ignored by the more "militant" atheists. Promoting intolerance of Islam, Christianity and other harmful superstitions(because why should that filth be tolerated by reasonable people?)is what the Left should support, not promoting the intolerance of Muslims, Christians, etc.

A Christian would say, "Blame the sin, not the sinner".

What is your strategy of confronting harmful superstitions (Christianity, Islam) without offending the people who keep it alive by believing that shit (christians, muslims)?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The main harmful superstition that we have to fight is that capitalism has a future for the human race. As people become collectively more in control of their lives and science and technology advances the other superstitions will take care of themselves.

Religios still exists at this historical stage because for many people they work, in terms of comforting people, providing a source of community and personal identity.Religion will disappear when the material conditions which give rise to it disappear.(see Uncle Karl for details)

[milkmiku]

What is your strategy of confronting harmful superstitions (Christianity, Islam) without offending the people who keep it alive by believing that shit (christians, muslims)?


Study their Ideology, point out contextual contradictions. Do not be aggressive, always ask questions, never mock.

Context context context, If you can argue the context of specific verses and do it better than they, then you're already on better ground that most "militant atheist"

For instance, one of the big anti-abortion examples that have is "G_d knowing David in the womb", Ask if that was simply a special case, point out that instances in which g_d directly contacted anyone are rare over the course of time within the bible. Plant doubt then support it with other verses of people being special cases in the bible.


I think there are sites dedicated to this stuff.

Just don't come of as a aggressive dick is the best bet.

[hatzel]

I care for neither Islam or Christianity. I am not on that pastor's side. I reacted the way I did because it seemed to me as though the point of this thread was about the burning of the actual Koran, as if it is a really terrible thing to do, rather than the hypocrisy of one religious twat, inciting terror from other religious twats.

I hope you can agree that if an atheist came out with a bible, koran, and torah... as well as a lighter and kerosene, we could all rejoice and enjoy the destruction of ancient texts that keeps human beings in chains to this day.

So what you're saying here is that if a Christian attacks Muslims you'd (reluctantly) offer a terribly meek condemnation (it's 'hypocritical,' you say, but there's still no suggestion whatsoever of any stronger criticism), but if an atheist were to do exactly the same, you'd 'rejoice' and 'enjoy' it? You see no problem with the act itself, and how it fits in with local and global dynamics, only with the specifics of the perpetrator?

[ridethejetski]

who cares?

A few Muslims may stage an angry demonstration and burn some flags in response, while the right wing will respond by saying "look, Muslims are violent". And for the majority of non-Muslims and Muslims life goes on with more important matters to worry about.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There's a good chance that people will die over this. That's a little more disturbing than just some flags being burned.

You'll remember that many people were killed in the aftermath of the US Koran burnings earlier this year. And the majority were Afghans, not Americans.

[Manifesto]

You anti-theists are some of the most condescending people I have ever heard. When you are agreeing with the actions of an asshole doing the same thing that the Nazis did, you know there is something wrong with that.

[roy]

What is your strategy of confronting harmful superstitions (Christianity, Islam) without offending the people who keep it alive by believing that shit (christians, muslims)?

hmm... perhaps you should start by not calling their faiths 'harmful superstitions' or 'that shit'. maybe you could just mind your own business. that might work.

i don't see how it's possible to attack religion without attacking the religious. it's not like people who identify as christians/muslims/jews/hindus etc. are all homogeneous groups who all have the exact same interpretations of scripture and follow them to the letter, so...

[honest john's firing squad]

oh, my

this thread...

[Revolution starts with U]

I care for neither Islam or Christianity. I am not on that pastor's side. I reacted the way I did because it seemed to me as though the point of this thread was about the burning of the actual Koran, as if it is a really terrible thing to do, rather than the hypocrisy of one religious twat, inciting terror from other religious twats.

I hope you can agree that if an atheist came out with a bible, koran, and torah... as well as a lighter and kerosene, we could all rejoice and enjoy the destruction of ancient texts that keeps human beings in chains to this day.

I would agree, as an "atheist," that anyone which burns any book is an asshole, period.


oh, my

this thread...

Guy burns a koran ~~> Militant atheists and religion apologists squabble on Revleft :lol:

[gorillafuck]

Guy burns a koran ~~> Militant atheists and people who understand politics and context squabble on Revleft :lol:I corrected this post.

[Revolution starts with U]

I corrected this post.

It is no better politics to defend the muslim community as muslims (rather than as proles) than to attack them.

And this is a wholly other matter than the people who apologize for religion, as if it is or could be something worthwhile and enlightening :rolleyes:

[l'Enfermé]

You anti-theists are some of the most condescending people I have ever heard. When you are agreeing with the actions of an asshole doing the same thing that the Nazis did, you know there is something wrong with that.
Yes, because Nazis burned Korans....oh, wait, actually, Nazis had quite a few SS Muslim units.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i have often hoped comrade nox would fall off a cliff

[Franz Fanonipants]

What is your strategy of confronting harmful superstitions (Christianity, Islam) without offending the people who keep it alive by believing that shit (christians, muslims)?

mostly i just believe in Christ and am smarter/a better communist than you that is my strategy

[Brosip Tito]

ITT: Anti-theists vs theists..

Oy vey.

[Franz Fanonipants]

ITT: Anti-theists vs theists..

Oy vey.

basically sums up the entire forum

[Misanthrope]

ITT: Anti-theists vs theists..

Oy vey.

false dichotomy bro

I don't believe in God, I am not a theist. Let's be honest too, there really are few theists on this forum outside OI.

[Franz Fanonipants]

false dichotomy bro

I don't believe in God, I am not a theist. Let's be honest too, there really are few theists on this forum outside OI.

yeah you're right i dont mean to expand this shit to non-dumbass atheists

[gorillafuck]

ITT: Anti-theists vs theists..

Oy vey.this is not anti-theists vs theists or "religion apologists" at all. this is a clear case of mindless anti-theists vs people who actually understand what this is.

[Revolution starts with U]

this is not anti-theists vs theists or "religion apologists" at all. this is a clear case of mindless anti-theists vs people who actually understand what this is.

You don't have to defend Muslims as Muslims to attack religious intolerance.

[Brosip Tito]

this is not anti-theists vs theists or "religion apologists" at all. this is a clear case of mindless anti-theists vs people who actually understand what this is.
True.

Ergo, i retract my assessment, and take yours.

[gorillafuck]

You don't have to defend Muslims as Muslims to attack religious intolerance.what are you talking about? that doesn't relate to my post.

[Medvyet]

"as it could put US soldiers in Afghanistan and elsewhere at risk"

So the Reverend Asshole KNEW that burning that book would put OTHER PEOPLES' lives in danger? Does he think he's being brave? Because sacrificing other peoples' lives for his own cause is not brave.

[Revolution starts with U]

what are you talking about? that doesn't relate to my post.

This


This is completely true and sadly, sometimes ignored by the more "militant" atheists. Promoting intolerance of Islam, Christianity and other harmful superstitions(because why should that filth be tolerated by reasonable people?)is what the Left should support, not promoting the intolerance of Muslims, Christians, etc.

A Christian would say, "Blame the sin, not the sinner".

As if we should tolerate the religious in their function as religious people, not in thier function necessarily as proles.


You anti-theists are some of the most condescending people I have ever heard. When you are agreeing with the actions of an asshole doing the same thing that the Nazis did, you know there is something wrong with that.

Implies revolutionary terror is illegitimate because "the NAZIs did it. (or at least thought they did, but that's a seperate discussion). Also implies moral absolutes, regardless of their class makeup.


hmm... perhaps you should start by not calling their faiths 'harmful superstitions' or 'that shit'. maybe you could just mind your own business. that might work.

i don't see how it's possible to attack religion without attacking the religious. it's not like people who identify as christians/muslims/jews/hindus etc. are all homogeneous groups who all have the exact same interpretations of scripture and follow them to the letter, so...

Implies religion has anything of value to offer the proletariat.


You think this Christian fundamentalist's religion is any better? This isn't an atheist criticizing all religions, this is a Christian fundamentalist engaging in deliberate religious sectarianism to stir people up, by promoting intolerance of all Muslims (which the Left shouldn't support) and trying to provoke a reaction by Islamic fundamentalists (which the Left shouldn't support).

Implies we should support Muslims in their role as Muslims, by jumping to the defense of "Islam" and not of the specific proletarian nature of some Muslims.


do you even understand the whole entire concept of context?

this is bigotry intended at marginalizing and making unwelcome a minority group which in America has been under attack by propaganda, government watch, physical violence, ostracization, you fucking name it. that's what this is.

your reactions are equivalent to if people started burning Syrian flags and urging for an invasion of Syria, and reacting by saying "gee well I mean all they're doing is standing against the Syrian ruling class!"

Tho I agree that we shouldn't support imperialism because it is one ruling class against another. This, again, implies we should support Muslims as Muslims, regardless of their class character.


I mean, am I supposed to care of some bourgois liberal Muslim is not tolerated? The only Muslims I care about are the ones who live by the ability to sell their labor time, under the rule of capital.

[Manifesto]

Yes, because Nazis burned Korans....oh, wait, actually, Nazis had quite a few SS Muslim units.
Look out, Mr. Literal over here.

[hatzel]

Look out, Mr. Literal over here.

No no, I very much doubt his surname is 'Literal,' that doesn't sound at all likely to me...

[gorillafuck]

As if we should tolerate the religious in their function as religious people, not in thier function necessarily as proles.for one, I said literally nothing about supporting Islam as a religion. for two, what function do muslims, as muslims, have in the united states?


Implies revolutionary terror is illegitimate because "the NAZIs did it. (or at least thought they did, but that's a seperate discussion). Also implies moral absolutes, regardless of their class makeup.so is what you are saying, that you consider it legitimate to wage some sort of revolutionary terror against Islam in the United States (considering that this thread is discussing a koran burning in the united states)? and no less, support or are ambivalent to campaigns specifically against Islam as a religion in a country where Muslims are a persecuted minority?

I'll add that by the rules of the english language, what I said there in no way requires defense of Islamic scripture but does require a rejection of bourgeois anti-Islam which is the predominant ideology in the US right now.


Implies religion has anything of value to offer the proletariat.it doesn't imply that, and one or two posts supporting a religion does not alter the general discussion which is currently between state department anti-theism vs. people who understand what the it means to burn a koran in this very specific context.


Implies we should support Muslims in their role as Muslims, by jumping to the defense of "Islam" and not of the specific proletarian nature of some Muslims.what she said clearly does not state what you just said that it does.


Tho I agree that we shouldn't support imperialism because it is one ruling class against another. This, again, implies we should support Muslims as Muslims, regardless of their class character.it implies nothing of the sort. what I said is, incredibly obviously, that this is an attempt to stir up bourgeois hatred of a minority group. nothing I said whatsoever anywhere, if you're fluent in english, could be considered a defense of Islamic scripture or beliefs.

[Revolution starts with U]

Look, I've made my position clear; this Pastor is an asshole. That still doesn't change the fact that to act like we should care that somoene persecutes Muslims, in their role as Muslims (meaning practicing the Islamic faith) entirely dismisses the class character of this incident. If certain proles are persecuted because of it, we shall fight. If some bourgois Muslim gets "persecuted" I will not care... and that's what large sections of the US Muslim population are; business owners and students, petit bourgoisie.

So are "persecuted minority" bourgoisie the same as "persecuted minority" proletarians? Why should I defend them against this pastor, rather than attacking them both?

So what is it? Why should I defend Islam against this Pastor?

[gorillafuck]

Look, I've made my position clear; this Pastor is an asshole. That still doesn't change the fact that to act like we should care that somoene persecutes Muslims, in their role as Muslims (meaning practicing the Islamic faith) entirely dismisses the class character of this incident.the class character of this incident is that, contextually, it is bourgeois division and discrimination.


If certain proles are persecuted because of it, we shall fight. If some bourgois Muslim gets "persecuted" I will not care... and that's what large sections of the US Muslim population are; business owners and students, petit bourgoisie.for one, students are not bourgeois.

for two, your line of thinking here is on par with hearing the phrase "fuck niggers" and saying "well, why should I defend the black bourgeoisie?"


So are "persecuted minority" bourgoisie the same as "persecuted minority" proletarians? Why should I defend them against this pastor, rather than attacking them both?this is not specifically an attack on the bourgeois, and it is not defense of specific individual people. it is the incident as a whole which is in service of discrimination and persecution which has been encouraged by the ruling class.

[Revolution starts with U]

the class character of this incident is that, contextually, it is bourgeois division and discrimination.

Right, so a perfect time to remind everyone that regardless of their faith, they will far more effectively fight oppression as "working class" than as "muslims or christians." Effectively, a good time to remind everyone that both kind-of bogus, and whether we, as socialists, defend them or not depends solely on their class interests, and not on their faith.



for one, students are not bourgeois.

I figured you knew what I meant; petit bourgois and their children.



for two, your line of thinking here is on par with hearing the phrase "fuck niggers" and saying "well, why should I defend the black bourgeoisie?"

Well, let's assume that race and religion function in the same way; it would be more akin to somebody burning the Black Panther Party manifesto and me saying "good."

But I find it more important to remind everyone that being "black" is not something you have any choice in. Being a "christian" is. I would remind all that their is no holy book to being black, no centerpiece of black values.


this is not specifically an attack on the bourgeois, and it is not defense of specific individual people. it is the incident as a whole which is in service of discrimination and persecution which has been encouraged by the ruling class.
And so when someone says "fuck the Koran anyway" what is the problem? Does that mean they implicitly support the Pastor? Do you think its more conducive to solidarity to be of a certain religion, or to have class consciousness?

[gorillafuck]

Right, so a perfect time to remind everyone that regardless of their faith, they will far more effectively fight oppression as "working class" than as "muslims or christians." Effectively, a good time to remind everyone that both kind-of bogus, and whether we, as socialists, defend them or not depends solely on their class interests, and not on their faith.wow, you have a poor understanding. nobody has suggested defending muslim scriptures. they've suggested that this should be opposed for what it obviously is: a call for hate against a persecuted minority group.

you seem to be operating under the impression that people have been calling for a cross class Islamic defense movement rather than just opposing attempts at stirring up right wing discrimination which is what this is.


I figured you knew what I meant; petit bourgois and their children.can you back up that most muslims are petit-bourgeois?

and even if you can, that wouldn't change what this still is: see above


Well, let's assume that race and religion function in the same way; it would be more akin to somebody burning the Black Panther Party manifesto and me saying "good."what?


But I find it more important to remind everyone that being "black" is not something you have any choice in. Being a "christian" is. I would remind all that their is no holy book to being black, no centerpiece of black values. and being a christian and being muslim in america have wildly different implications.


And so when someone says "fuck the Koran anyway" what is the problem? Does that mean they implicitly support the Pastor? Do you think its more conducive to solidarity to be of a certain religion, or to have class consciousness?if you can't tell the difference between this, an obvious attempt at stirring up right wing hatred, and a socialist saying fuck the koran as a part of being aganst all religion, then you obviously are not able to see things past the very, very immediate surface.

[Devrim]

Last year the BBC did a (perhaps unintentionally) hilarious interview with Rev Jones..Jones, despite writing a book on Islam, knew literally nothing about this religion, including the fact the Muslims pray 5 times a day, "Allah" is the Arab word for god, etc.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009zklg

Superb, "I know what the Bible says about the Koran".

Devrim

[Elysian]

I am inclined to agree with 'revolution starts with you'. As leftists, our job is to fight for the workers, and other 'fights' must fit into this framework. Else, there isn't much difference between us and liberals. Do I care about a rich minority or a poor member of the majority community?

[corolla]

Look, I've made my position clear; this Pastor is an asshole. That still doesn't change the fact that to act like we should care that somoene persecutes Muslims, in their role as Muslims (meaning practicing the Islamic faith) entirely dismisses the class character of this incident. If certain proles are persecuted because of it, we shall fight. If some bourgois Muslim gets "persecuted" I will not care... and that's what large sections of the US Muslim population are; business owners and students, petit bourgoisie.

Yes, and if some middle class Jews got Holocausted, you would presumably likewise not care. Kristallnacht? As a leftist, I'm glad they burned those filthy synagogues! :rolleyes:

Catch a clue.

[roy]

Implies religion has anything of value to offer the proletariat.





please explain how i was implying religion has 'value to the proletariat' (whatever that is really supposed to mean). i was simply stating that attacking religion as something monolithic is folly because it's obviously not. religious =/= reactionary, atheist =/= non-reactionary. this pre-occupation with attacking religion bugs me. i thought we were supposed to be hung up on class, capitalism or some shit like that?

anywho, how do you decide what people should value? i mean sure, if having faith is good for you cool, but i didn't even say anything vaguely along those lines. :confused:

[Revolution starts with U]

Im going to go ahead and say that I made a knee jerk reaction to the unexplained anti-atheism in this thread. Someone said "fuck the koran anyway" and people started going on about how that's somehow a bad thing to say. The only explanation for why this was so was "because we understand politics, and you don't."

It's not like a support this Pastor in what he did. I stand by my position; that we shouldn't defend religious people as members of their religion, but as humans and proles (if they are). If you don't want people to get upset with you for being a Muslim, you could just stop being a muslim. It's not like being black. You can't just stop that.

To the point about the holocaust; fair enough. I retract my previous statement that I "don't care at all." It was stupid of me, and not well thought out.

Tho I retract some of my more incoherent posts in this thread; I still fail to understand what's so wrong with saying "fuck the Koran anyway," and how this wasn't just a knee-jerk anti-atheist reaction.



can you back up that most muslims are petit-bourgeois?

I didn't say they were. I said "many" of US Muslims are petit boureois.



if you can't tell the difference between this, an obvious attempt at stirring up right wing hatred, and a socialist saying fuck the koran as a part of being aganst all religion, then you obviously are not able to see things past the very, very immediate surface.

^ This is what I'm talking about. All you are saying here is "if you weren't stupid, you would agree with me." You're explaining nothing. Are you suggesting atheism promotes religious persecution?

[gorillafuck]

Im going to go ahead and say that I made a knee jerk reaction to the unexplained anti-atheism in this thread. Someone said "fuck the koran anyway" and people started going on about how that's somehow a bad thing to say. The only explanation for why this was so was "because we understand politics, and you don't."there has been no anti-atheism in this thread. a few people said they don't see what's wrong with this. and opponents of this said that we understand this situation better than them, which was then elaborated on in depth.


You're explaining nothing. Are you suggesting atheism promotes religious persecution?no. once again, I am literally astonished that you could have interpreted that this way. I suggested that this specific incident promotes bourgeois persecution. which it does, and it has been elaborated upon how it does.

[Revolution starts with U]

I am seeing no in depth elaboration. I see "you're promoting discrimination. If you weren't so stupid you would agree with me."

Is it here:

>Failing to recognize why this is so incredibly ignorant.
Nope. Here:

this is bigotry intended at marginalizing and making unwelcome a minority group which in America has been under attack by propaganda, government watch, physical violence, ostracization, you fucking name it. that's what this is
Not really. This says nothing about why it's wrong to say "fuck the Koran anyway" in this incident. Nor is it that in-depth. ... Here:

This is completely true and sadly, sometimes ignored by the more "militant" atheists. Promoting intolerance of Islam, Christianity and other harmful superstitions(because why should that filth be tolerated by reasonable people?)is what the Left should support, not promoting the intolerance of Muslims, Christians, etc.
Nope. Here:

So what you're saying here is that if a Christian attacks Muslims you'd (reluctantly) offer a terribly meek condemnation (it's 'hypocritical,' you say, but there's still no suggestion whatsoever of any stronger criticism), but if an atheist were to do exactly the same, you'd 'rejoice' and 'enjoy' it? You see no problem with the act itself, and how it fits in with local and global dynamics, only with the specifics of the perpetrator?
Nope. Here:

You anti-theists are some of the most condescending people I have ever heard. When you are agreeing with the actions of an asshole doing the same thing that the Nazis did, you know there is something wrong with that.
Nope.

this is not anti-theists vs theists or "religion apologists" at all. this is a clear case of mindless anti-theists vs people who actually understand what this is.
Nope.

I could go on. But it's safe to say that there is no "in depth explanation" for why Nox's comment was so terrible, or makes him "not understand the bigger picture."

[NGNM85]

While this pastor is, clearly, a total jackass, and his premesis are, obviously, bogus, there is a kind of (albiet, deeply flawed) internal logic at work. If he burns all the Korans, than, eventually, Islam will probably cease to exist. Two down, x million to go. At this rate; presuming the number of Korans is static (Which, clearly, is not the case.) it should only take a few hundred thousand years, or so.

[NGNM85]

if you can't tell the difference between this, an obvious attempt at stirring up right wing hatred, and a socialist saying fuck the koran as a part of being aganst all religion, then you obviously are not able to see things past the very, very immediate surface.

Amen. We can walk, and chew gum, at the same time. There's no contradiction.

[gorillafuck]

I am seeing no in depth elaboration. I see "you're promoting discrimination. If you weren't so stupid you would agree with me."then look around the thread. you'll see explanations of why this specific incident, the pastor burning the koran, is discrimination. and this argument that I am involved in was specifically started in response to Nox'c comment which was not "fuck the koran" at all but was stating that there is nothing wrong with a right wing pastor propagating in favor of his religious extremism against the religion of muslims who in the US have been persecuted in recent years. nothing whatsoever about the koran being good or saying that someone can't say "fuck the koran" and have it not be reactionary in a different context.


Nope.yes, nobody has apologized for Islamic scripture or teaching which is what a religion apologist is or expressed theistic viewpoints. therefore religious apologism and theism have not been part of the debate.


I could go on. But it's safe to say that there is no "in depth explanation" for why Nox's comment was so terrible, or makes him "not understand the bigger picture."because he thought there was nothing wrong with a right wing pastor burning a koran, which is an act intended at furthering persecution of a specific portion of the population which has been persecuted based on cultural tendencies and believing different superstitions from the mainstream. and this persecution is intended on promoting hate for a specific part of the population for the benefit of the ruling class.

[Revolution starts with U]

I'm pretty sure all he said was "implies there is anything wrong with burning that piece of shit." Those were his exact words, correct?