Is it wrong to oppose mass immigration?

[chefdave]

With the economic turnoil the West is going through at the moment should we be more concerned about the instability and cost associated with mass immigration? For example in the UK unemployment is over 8%, our welfare bill is currently around £200bn and the recent GDP stats have confirmed that we're entered a double dip recession. As it's easy to turn migrants into scapegoats for poor economic performance is it fairer on all concerned to drastically reduce the influx so we can concentrate on getting the economy right? To that end I support UKIP's proposal - a non racist freedom loving party - of a five year freeze on immigration so we can assimilate those who arrived under New Labour and deal with the million or so who who have entered illegally these past few years.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I take your point, it's something that I've struggled with before. Personally, I cannot help but feel that introducing strict quotas and reductions could mean people who urgently need asylum and help and can't get it.
I'm no economist, so I can only look on this from a naiive humanitarian point of view, and I hate to see the Right, especially the fascists, made to look like they've got the right idea.

[Ostrinski]

There are some on the left that are anti-mass immigration within capitalist society, not many though and are generally looked down upon on the board.

[Blanquist]

I think people should have a right to live and work anywhere they want.

[Railyon]

is it fairer on all concerned to drastically reduce the influx so we can concentrate on getting the economy right?

That's pretty much antithetical to our agenda so no.

Mass immigration is pretty much a myth anyway - you sound like an EDLer there. The problems and proposed solutions work with the logic of the capitalist framework, it makes no sense for the Left to succumb to that; our job is to transcend it.

Maybe we ougtha start expropriations, oh look easy fix to poverty right there!

[chefdave]

There are some on the left that are anti-mass immigration within capitalist society, not many though and are generally looked down upon on the board.

Why would anyone be looked down upon for wanting to preserve their own culture and ensuring that their economy remains relatively efficient? Generally mass immigration flows just one way: from poorer African/middle eastern/Asian countries to the richer west, so while it's in the interests of inhabitents from those regions to have loose borders and relaxed immigration controls the West doesn't really gain from it. Other than the sense of moral superiority we enjoy from housing poor immigrants mass immigration into UK is a negative sum game, one we can ill afford.

[chefdave]

I think people should have a right to live and work anywhere they want.

I want to come and live in your house. Is that ok?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Why would anyone be looked down upon for wanting to preserve their own culture and ensuring that their economy remains relatively efficient? Generally mass immigration flows just one way: from poorer African/middle eastern/Asian countries to the richer west, so while it's in the interests of inhabitents from those regions to have loose borders and relaxed immigration controls the West doesn't really gain from it. Other than the sense of moral superiority we enjoy from housing poor immigrants mass immigration into UK is a negative sum game, one we can ill afford.


...why are you on a left-wing forum? :confused: What do you gain by holding the right-wingers point of view and posting about it in a venue where almost everyone will disagree?

[chefdave]

That's pretty much antithetical to our agenda so no.

Mass immigration is pretty much a myth anyway - you sound like an EDLer there. The problems and proposed solutions work with the logic of the capitalist framework, it makes no sense for the Left to succumb to that; our job is to transcend it.

Maybe we ougtha start expropriations, oh look easy fix to poverty right there!

Mass immigration isn't a myth, since 1997 we've allowed 5.2 million foreign immigrants into the country and the new coalition government havn't exactly put in the sort of controls many of us hoped for, in 2010 net immigration was still 250,000. Very few people want this level of immigration, nobody was asked to vote on it, so altering the funadamental makeup of UK like this without any mandate from the electorate is a subversion of the 'democratic' process.

[Grenzer]

It's pretty much reactionary to oppose immigration. The land doesn't really belong to anyone except the proletariat as a class, in the view of communists. To oppose immigration is just pointless nationalism.

[chefdave]

...why are you on a left-wing forum? :confused: What do you gain by holding the right-wingers point of view and posting about it in a venue where almost everyone will disagree?

Why did the Victorian missionaries head out to Africa? No point in preaching to the converted. ;)

[chefdave]

It's pretty much reactionary to oppose immigration. The land doesn't really belong to anyone except the proletariat as a class, in the view of communists. To oppose immigration is just pointless nationalism.

What happens if the proletariat class decide they want to keep the land in their own hands and prevent a foreign capitalist class from entering and watering down their communist culture? If the proletariat do genuinely own the land they get the final say over who's allowed to use it.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Why did the Victorian missionaries head out to Africa? No point in preaching to the converted. ;)

..I see



"so altering the funadamental makeup of UK like this without any mandate.."

Fundamental makeup? OH you mean the white faces and English / Welsh / other gaelic languages. Good point, don't want to fuck up our flawless society that has no roots stemming from historical immigration.
I know I'm being a bit childish here but that nationalist attitude really fucking annoys me

[Veovis]

What happens if the proletariat class decide they want to keep the land in their own hands and prevent a foreign capitalist class from entering and watering down their communist culture? If the proletariat do genuinely own the land they get the final say over who's allowed to use it.

There would be no foreign capital class. They'd all be either dead or dispossessed of their riches and integrated into the working class.

[honest john's firing squad]

I want to come and live in your house. Is that ok?
Are you actually a child or did you intentionally ignore the obvious dissimilarities in the scenarios you just juxtaposed?

[Lobotomy]

What happens if the proletariat class decide they want to keep the land in their own hands and prevent a foreign capitalist class from entering and watering down their communist culture? If the proletariat do genuinely own the land they get the final say over who's allowed to use it.

the point is to eliminate the ruling class, not simply to keep them at bay.

[chefdave]

Are you actually a child or did you intentionally ignore the obvious dissimilarities in the scenarios you just juxtaposed?

The other poster said, and I quote: "I think people should have a right to live anywhere they want". If people have a RIGHT to live ANYWHERE they want it stands to reason that you don't have the moral authority prevent me from from living in your house if I want to.

[honest john's firing squad]

The other poster said, and I quote: "I think people should have a right to live anywhere they want". If people have a RIGHT to live ANYWHERE they want it stands to reason that you don't have the moral authority prevent me from from living in your house if I want to.
Do you not understand context or do you take everything this literally, just to be an asswipe?

[hatzel]

I thought of chefdave yesterday because Diane Abbott and a certain Mr Farage were on Question Time. It was quite funny because matey said a load of stuff about immigrants coming over and straight away stealing all the social housing and benefits without ever contributing anything, and then some guy who worked at the housing authority pointed out that actually he was lying and these immigrants weren't entitled to social housing at all and he'd just made stuff up to scare people and try to cover himself. As if often the case amongst anti-immigration types, always making up semi-sophisticated arguments about the economy and housing and all that jazz, in a vain attempt to cover up the fact that they actually oppose immigration because they don't want to have to be around foreigners...

[chefdave]

the point is to eliminate the ruling class, not simply to keep them at bay.

Ah, that's ok then. The humanitarian option is not to assert ownership rights over certain patches of the earth so each and every community has security of tenure, but to elimate all opposition so conflict and the capitalist mode of production can never again blight humanity.

I'm glad we've cleared that one up. :rolleyes:

[Ostrinski]

Ah, that's ok then. The humanitarian option is not to assert ownership rights over certain patches of the earth so each and every community has security of tenure, but to elimate all opposition so conflict and the capitalist mode of production can never again blight humanity.

I'm glad we've cleared that one up. :rolleyes:Yeah, actually. I fail to see the problem here..? The task of a class that is in conquest for class dominance is to crush the class enemy.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Ah, that's ok then. The humanitarian option is not to assert ownership rights over certain patches of the earth so each and every community has security of tenure, but to elimate all opposition so conflict and the capitalist mode of production can never again blight humanity.

I'm glad we've cleared that one up. :rolleyes:

Your 'missionary' work here is bound to be a success with that attitude :thumbup:

[chefdave]

Do you not understand context or do you take everything this literally, just to be an asswipe?

All I've done is rephrase the poster's comment and put it in a context that makes sense. He believes that people have the right to live anywhere expect for areas that are already owned, as the UK is already 100% owned (except for the public spaces which belong to the Crown) his argument isn't one for mass immigration.

[honest john's firing squad]

All I've done is rephrase the poster's comment and put it in a context that makes sense. He believes that people have the right to live anywhere
Are you dense? I find it pretty obvious that by saying "anywhere they want", within the context of a discussion about immigration, the poster is referring to a country or any locality or settlement within that country. Note that 'locality' and 'settlement' do not refer to already-occupied private residences. How you managed to misconstrue what they said is beyond me.

[chefdave]

I thought of chefdave yesterday because Diane Abbott and a certain Mr Farage were on Question Time. It was quite funny because matey said a load of stuff about immigrants coming over and straight away stealing all the social housing and benefits without ever contributing anything, and then some guy who worked at the housing authority pointed out that actually he was lying and these immigrants weren't entitled to social housing at all and he'd just made stuff up to scare people and try to cover himself. As if often the case amongst anti-immigration types, always making up semi-sophisticated arguments about the economy and housing and all that jazz, in a vain attempt to cover up the fact that they actually oppose immigration because they don't want to have to be around foreigners...

I think you're wrong to totally write off the economic argument against mass immigration. It's not exactly efficient for schools to teach classrooms full of kids that collectively speak 10-15 different languages for example, and multi-lingual workplaces come up against similar communication problems which add costs and put us at an competitive disadvantage internationally. But there certainly is a cultural element that many Brits feel uncomfortable with. Personally I wouldn't choose to live in an area that had a high immigrant population because I find places like that depressing, unfamiliar and potentially hostile. I don't see how enclaves of foreign born nationals each with their own culture specific practices 'enriches' the British Isles in any way. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

[MotherCossack]

hello again mr i'm a cook-with-a-book behave dave...
i wonder how you would feel if you were born somewhere like ....

well for example: a location torn and at war with itself.... atrocities a fact of life... each day brings a new fight for survival of the most harrowing order.... starvation is endemic... clean water is occasionally available... but it costs... several hours walking under the hottest son imaginable..... you drink what you can and carry the rest home to your young siblings who you care for since the death of your parents.. one from aids the other killed by the militia for no reason other than he was a good man and they were 'high' and armed.
you are terrified that you, or your little ones will get ill.... medicine is a strange and mythical concept..... you have heard it talked about .. by grown ups... and strangers.. but have no idea where to get it or what it even is exactly...
school.... you try not to even think about it.... it depresses you and since there is no likelehood you will ever experience such a thing ... better not to dwell on what you cant have....

now.... do you have any idea how many people in the world live in a reality just like that...?
quite a bloody lot....

for them... life is awful....
now... what do you think gives us the right to claim all this for ourselves?
did you earn your place on the bright side of life? did i?
did they offend someone powerful? do they not deserve a life? where is any justice in this stinking rotten world....
and you believe you can justify closing the door and locking them out .

and people claim to be mystified by the war on terror and the motives of growing numbers of fundementalist zealots who decry the west?!!!!

Really?!

i dont enjoy any of the fruits of our entrenched, hateful and corrupted capitalist system... but i do feel in many ways, one of the fortunate ones... they and I... we are the same... yet they live in such
a harsh world.
so.... dave the juggling cook... would you swap...?

[rednordman]

No offense but i cannot believe you referred to UKIP as "a non racist freedom loving party":rolleyes:

[chefdave]

Are you dense? I find it pretty obvious that by saying "anywhere they want", within the context of a discussion about immigration, the poster is referring to a country or any locality or settlement within that country. Note that 'locality' and 'settlement' do not refer to already-occupied private residences. How you managed to misconstrue what they said is beyond me.

Your assertion is riddled with internal contradictions. What is a country exactly? Well one way to define it would be sovereign control over a certain territory, the government in charge makes laws, defends property and generally writes the rule book on what is and isn't allowed within it's jurisdiction. If people are allowed to roam "anywhere they want" then by definition we've already abolished the state because it's no longer in control of what happens at the border. So the choices are these:

1) A bona fide country with the ability to restict immigration at the public's behest
2) A land mass with no rules and eternal squabbling over who owns what and where people are allowed to travel.

You cannot say that it's possible to open the borders and still use terms like 'country' to describe the plan. What you're left with post-state is lawless anarchy.

[chefdave]

hello again mr i'm a cook-with-a-book behave dave...
i wonder how you would feel if you were born somewhere like ....

well for example: a location torn and at war with itself.... atrocities a fact of life... each day brings a new fight for survival of the most harrowing order.... starvation is endemic... clean water is occasionally available... but it costs... several hours walking under the hottest son imaginable..... you drink what you can and carry the rest home to your young siblings who you care for since the death of your parents.. one from aids the other killed by the militia for no reason other than he was a good man and they were 'high' and armed.
you are terrified that you, or your little ones will get ill.... medicine is a strange and mythical concept..... you have heard it talked about .. by grown ups... and strangers.. but have no idea where to get it or what it even is exactly...
school.... you try not to even think about it.... it depresses you and since there is no likelehood you will ever experience such a thing ... better not to dwell on what you cant have....

now.... do you have any idea how many people in the world live in a reality just like that...?
quite a bloody lot....

for them... life is awful....
now... what do you think gives us the right to claim all this for ourselves?
did you earn your place on the bright side of life? did i?
did they offend someone powerful? do they not deserve a life? where is any justice in this stinking rotten world....
and you believe you can justify closing the door and locking them out .

and people claim to be mystified by the war on terror and the motives of growing numbers of fundementalist zealots who decry the west?!!!!

Really?!

i dont enjoy any of the fruits of our entrenched, hateful and corrupted capitalist system... but i do feel in many ways, one of the fortunate ones... they and I... we are the same... yet they live in such
a harsh world.
so.... dave the juggling cook... would you swap...?


Are you really the mum of another poster? :)

My concern as a righty -as I'm sure you're aware- is that all those poor folk who live in war torn areas will seek asylum and ultimately bring all their ideological baggage with them. Face it, there's nothing wrong with conflict ridden areas per se, it's just that the people who inhabit these places have some very unusual religious and social ideas that clearly aren't conducive to peace, wealth creation and the rule of law. Well who's to say things will change as soon as they hit Dover? If I move from Cornwall to China will I immediately forget my cultural heritage and embrace all things Chinese? Of course not! So it cuts the other way too.

For this reason we should think very carefully before allowing large numbers of foreigners from poor/corrupt countries to reside here. The U.S and Europe is in a position to be pick,y so I advocate only admitting those with the very best cultural CV's.

[chefdave]

No offense but i cannot believe you referred to UKIP as "a non racist freedom loving party":rolleyes:

Why?

[maskerade]

the best way to reverse the catastrophes of colonialism is to allow the colonized to colonize the colonizers.

The problems of 'mass immigration' are not problems of immigration. Rather, they are indicative of the destructive nature of a capitalist system. If all wealth is extracted from the periphery countries immigrants come from and brought back to the core European countries, why shouldn't the people follow as well?

To think of immigration as a threat to culture is fucking stupid. Not only does it reify culture as something rigid and unchanging, which denies the actuality of culture as fluid and continuously changing, it's also extremely fucking insulting to the centuries of oppression and ethnocide facilitated by capitalist expansion into the global south. You think your culture is in danger? Bullshit, if anything Western culture is slowly but surely assimilating the entire world population. Languages become extinct all the time, people are uprooted from their homelands and become subjected to the rigid conceptual order of capitalism on almost a daily basis - as in, they become homogenized into the glory that is Westernism.

[chefdave]

..I see



"so altering the funadamental makeup of UK like this without any mandate.."

Fundamental makeup? OH you mean the white faces and English / Welsh / other gaelic languages. Good point, don't want to fuck up our flawless society that has no roots stemming from historical immigration.
I know I'm being a bit childish here but that nationalist attitude really fucking annoys me

Say what you want about the Anglo-Saxon community but the facts speak for themselves, whenever Anglo-Saxons make a go of it on their own terms: the UK, Australia, the U.S and Canada you gets armies of people often prepared to risk their lives just so they can get a taste of the good life. And do you know what the fundamental attraction behind the western model is? Capitalism. Yes it's flawed and in need reform but when compared to what else is on offer: religious autocracies, failed states, communist dictatorships etc etc you begin to understand why the anglosphere acts as a beacon of light for so many people.

[daft punk]

The left needs to be careful on this issue. We cannot jump down workers' throats for opposing immigration. The OP is right that 5 million immigrants entered the UK in the last 10 years, an unprecedented wave. Personally I am currently unemployed, looking for work, and there are Eastern Europeans everywhere. I paid taxes for decades, but I might not even get any benefits. I was getting my hair cut the other day and the hairdresser was going on about it, how many Polish hairdressers there are and so on. We can't just call them racists. Sometimes it's second generation people from the Caribbean and South Asia complaining about these Eastern Europeans.

We have to beware of joining in, obviously, because it lends weight to the far right. But we can't just slag down workers worried about unemployment. Many Eastern Europeans who came here in by the way have been made unemployed themselves. Some go back and others become homeless.

So we have to explain the issues, we have to concentrate on making sure immigrants are unionised and not undercutting wages. We can't support a race to the bottom. Many on the left got this wrong when the Lindsey dispute kicked off, accusing the CWI of pandering to the far right. The fact is the opposite, the CWI made the strike about wages and not about immigration. They were supported by foreign trade unionists.

We have to explain that the solution is socialism, and the answer to 'we are full up' is to help other countries get their economies going, which will need socialism. The recession is a by-product of capitalism itself, profit is the cause of 'overcapacity'.

[Deicide]

'Your' culture isn't really your culture dave. It is bourgeois culture and values that permeate society. The ruling class world view is imposed as the societal norm, and poor chaps like yourself accept it as a universally valid ideology. Soo good ol' dave, if you want 'your' culture you're going to have to fight for the Communist cause I'm afraid.

[Deicide]

I'm a Eastern.. well actually Lithuania is Northern Europe.. Yeah, so I'm a Northern European in England taking urrr jobz. Should I be immediately sent back to the foreign lands from whence I came?

Dave you should watch some Doug Stanhope, you'll feel much better.

Doug Stanhope on nationalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPDT5qHtZ4

[Luís Henrique]

France cannot support so many foreigners any more.


Perhaps, but then "France" cannot support so many Frenchmen anymore...

Problem is, capitalism is reducing job opportunities, without reducing the dependence of people on jobs. So how much time until we start forbidding people from Yorkshire to move to London in search for a job?

Luís Henrique

[chefdave]

'Your' culture isn't really your culture dave. It is bourgeois culture and values that permeate society. The ruling class world view is imposed as the societal norm, and poor chaps like yourself accept it as a universally valid ideology. Soo good ol' dave, if you want 'your' culture you're going to have to fight for the Communist cause I'm afraid.

Well whoever's culture it is it seems to work reasonably well when compared with what else is on offer. The architects have done an acceptable job. You can complain about our bourgeois attitudes all you like, but it comes across as a bit hollow considering that you've already voted with your feet and opted to live here. Just another faux-commie who wants to feast on the fruits capitalism has to offer :D

[Deicide]

Well whoever's culture it is it seems to work reasonably well when compared with what else is on offer. The architects have done an acceptable job. You can complain about our bourgeois attitudes all you like, but it comes across as a bit hollow because you've already voted with your feet and opted to move here. Just another faux-commie who wants to feast on the fruits capitalism has to offer :D

Well I hope this makes you feel a bit better Dave, but I didn't actually choose to come here, yep that's right. I have some good news for you, the BNP, EDL, etc, etc. I'm planning on leaving relatively soon, so considering I'll be freeing up a workplace, you can have my job! :)

[honest john's firing squad]

Your assertion is riddled with internal contradictions. What is a country exactly? Well one way to define it would be sovereign control over a certain territory, the government in charge makes laws, defends property and generally writes the rule book on what is and isn't allowed within it's jurisdiction. If people are allowed to roam "anywhere they want" then by definition we've already abolished the state because it's no longer in control of what happens at the border.
You listed the functions of the state and then declared it would be effectively abolished as soon as it stopped turning immigrants away at the border? Do you think all the state's laws get magically repealed and government positions spontaneously dissolve as soon as the borders are opened? The geographic border still demarcates where the state's jurisdiction usually begins and ends; letting the black and brown people in doesn't somehow prevent the state's laws from applying within its own boundaries. There is a huge logical inconsistency in what you've just said.

[chefdave]

Well I hope this makes you feel a bit better Dave, but I didn't actually choose to come here, yep that's right. I'm planning on leaving relatively soon, so considering I'll be freeing up a workplace, you can have my job! :)

Damn, that means we're going to be down one comrade. In the struggle for revolution this could make all the difference between a workers' utopia and the continuation of the capitalist mode of production. I guess there's always international socialism though? :D

[ParaRevolutionary]

No.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Say what you want about the Anglo-Saxon community but the facts speak for themselves, whenever Anglo-Saxons make a go of it on their own terms: the UK, Australia, the U.S and Canada you gets armies of people often prepared to risk their lives just so they can get a taste of the good life. And do you know what the fundamental attraction behind the western model is? Capitalism. Yes it's flawed and in need reform but when compared to what else is on offer: religious autocracies, failed states, communist dictatorships etc etc you begin to understand why the anglosphere acts as a beacon of light for so many people.

I wasn't referring to capitalism, and I don't think you were either with that fundamental make up phrase, I was referring to the vaguely racist undertone of how immigrants 'alter the culture' of the UK.

But this point you're making now reminds me of John Tyndall talking at a BNP meeting, he explains how much 'we' (the whites) have acheived versus the africans (he suggests 'voodoo and AIDs' as their main acheivements).
I'm not saying you;re making exactly the same point, but this notion that the West, white-majority capitalist christian majority, is a beacon for the world...they come her in droves because we've got more money and are comparatively more stable then their homeland...homelands that have been fucked over by a variety of factors (global capital, previous occupation by western powers).
The West having more wealth may be a result of capitalism, but that same capitalism has had a hand in creating the instability and dangers in immigrants native countries..

OK..I will officially stop debating now b/c it is pointless; you believe what you believe and you will not be deterred, given your intended 'missionary' statement. Good luck to the rest.

[chefdave]

You listed the functions of the state and then declared it would be effectively abolished as soon as it stopped turning immigrants away at the border? Do you think all the state's laws get magically repealed and government positions spontaneously dissolve as soon as the borders are opened? The geographic border still demarcates where the state's jurisdiction usually begins and ends; letting the black and brown people in doesn't somehow prevent the state's laws from applying within its own boundaries. There is a huge logical inconsistency in what you've just said.

It seems that you're willing to go so far with the idea of a borderless, property-free, communist utopia but when it comes to your property apparently these rules no longer apply. And I'm the one who's being logically inconsistent? This is the typical attitude of a champagne socialist, well I'm sorry comrade but a 'stateless, moneyless, classless' society means exactly that, and if you have to sacrifice your property for the sake of needy immigrant then it's well worth it for the common good.

[chefdave]

duplicate post

[danyboy27]

I really dont understand why the board didnt already banned you chefdave.
Usually nationalistic xenophobes dont last long on revleft.

[Crux]

Why would anyone be looked down upon for wanting to preserve their own culture and ensuring that their economy remains relatively efficient? Generally mass immigration flows just one way: from poorer African/middle eastern/Asian countries to the richer west, so while it's in the interests of inhabitents from those regions to have loose borders and relaxed immigration controls the West doesn't really gain from it. Other than the sense of moral superiority we enjoy from housing poor immigrants mass immigration into UK is a negative sum game, one we can ill afford.
Inb4 your ban. Just for clarity that "mass-immigration" flows from primarily from the third world to the west is simply factually wrong, most refugees go to neighbouring countries. But I suspects it's like with that secret commie conspiracy out to get you, it's just something you feel. In fact with the extremely anti-immigrant policies of the EU, with Frontex et al, talking about any kind of "mass immigration" is only for those who are ignorant or for those who are counsciously out to decieve, divide and rule.

[chefdave]

I wasn't referring to capitalism, and I don't think you were either with that fundamental make up phrase, I was referring to the vaguely racist undertone of how immigrants 'alter the culture' of the UK.

But this point you're making now reminds me of John Tyndall talking at a BNP meeting, he explains how much 'we' (the whites) have acheived versus the africans (he suggests 'voodoo and AIDs' as their main acheivements).
I'm not saying you;re making exactly the same point, but this notion that the West, white-majority capitalist christian majority, is a beacon for the world...they come her in droves because we've got more money and are comparatively more stable then their homeland...homelands that have been fucked over by a variety of factors (global capital, previous occupation by western powers).
The West having more wealth may be a result of capitalism, but that same capitalism has had a hand in creating the instability and dangers in immigrants native countries..

OK..I will officially stop debating now b/c it is pointless; you believe what you believe and you will not be deterred, given your intended 'missionary' statement. Good luck to the rest.

But your 'blame the West' liberal attitude is at odds with the facts. Yes it is true that in it's recent history much of Africa was colonised by various European powers so this has almost certainly altered their trajectory as nation states, but similarly the U.S and Australia were once British colonies too and they havn't turned out too bad, have they? What's the difference? Imo the difference is that both Australia and the U.S were populated with Anglo Saxons so these new countries were more conducive to Western ideals such as individual liberty, property and respect for human rights. Other peoples simply had no affinity for such values and their societies deteriorated as a result. Also countries such as Rhodesia virtually thrived when they allowed their farms and industries to be run by Brits, as soon as they were kicked out it turned into Zimbabwe. Of course I totally understand why Mugabe got in and took back what he thought was rightfully his in the name of the people, but his grand vision soon turned into a nightmare for many of those who were promised riches once they'd gotten rid of the scourge of white capitalism. They irony is they were much better off under the old system. Being an opportunist I expect he still likes to blame Britain for problems he's had ample time to fix though, but I for one certainly don't feel the need to indulge these corrupt countries and leaders in their post colonial fantasies.

[chefdave]

I really dont understand why the board didnt already banned you chefdave.
Usually nationalistic xenophobes dont last long on revleft.

But why not just have an open and honest debate instead of sticking your fingers in your crying 'nationalist'? I don't think it's too much to ask on a political debating forum.

[Deicide]

What's your opinion on Fascism Dave? You not a fan?

EDIT - Aww, he got banned..

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

But why not just have an open and honest debate instead of sticking your fingers in your crying 'nationalist'? I don't think it's too much to ask on a political debating forum.

But, you are a nationalist, do you deny this? No one but a nationalist cries about culture being ruined by foreign elements that pollute the oh-so pure and wondrous Britannia.

[Sasha]

O.p. banned....

[Crux]

What's your opinion on Fascism Dave? You not a fan?

EDIT - Aww, he got banned..
So let me answer for him, it's just like communism. And the BNP are great if they weren't so darn socialist. So yeah. You know.

Nothing wrong with having a discussion on immigration policy in the OI-forum though, hopefully it can help clarify some thing's for some people.

[honest john's firing squad]

It seems that you're willing to go so far with the idea of a borderless, property-free, communist utopia but when it comes to your property apparently these rules no longer apply. And I'm the one who's being logically inconsistent? This is the typical attitude of a champagne socialist, well I'm sorry comrade but a 'stateless, moneyless, classless' society means exactly that, and if you have to sacrifice your property for the sake of needy immigrant then it's well worth it for the common good.
I know he's banned but holy shit I didn't even mention property.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

His racial arguement (Anglo-Saxons have better values) was starting to reeeally fuck me off.

[OHumanista]

Immigration if anything enriches the "native" culture. The more the merrier. I cringe at the thought of an isolated "pure" culture that has no contact with anyone else. (and thus no exchange of ideas, values, food etc)

[dodger]

An interesting question 80% of British People seeking answers, Mass immigration. A contribution to that debate from 2006, below, part of the continuing debate with working class people, who make up he vast majority of the nation. Small wonder they are recruiting cadre. Their views strongly resonate with many.

"Let's have a working class debate on immigration

WORKERS, OCT 2006 ISSUE

The government forecast that there would be 15,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe in the year after their entry to the European Union on 1 January 2004. The actual number was 300,000, followed by another 300,000 in 2005. Due to the increased supply of labour, wages in several unskilled and low-skilled job sectors have fallen, hitting the indigenous working class. The extra demand for housing has forced prices and rents ever higher, and in many cities students now find it almost impossible to get part-time jobs to help them through college.

Consequently, three-quarters of the population now wants far stricter limits on immigrant numbers, according to an Ipsos MORI poll carried out on behalf of the Sunday Times between 11 and 13 August: 63 per cent say immigration laws should be "much tougher", up from 58 per cent 18 months ago, while a further 11 per cent say there should be no more immigration. 77 per cent think the government should set a strict limit on the number of immigrants allowed into Britain each year. Just 14 per cent of people strongly agree that immigration is "generally good" for Britain, with double that number taking the opposite view.

Incidentally, the same poll also revealed widespread impatience with Tony Blair, with almost half of the nearly 1,000 people questioned believing that he should resign immediately.

This popular pressure against unlimited and uncontrolled immigration may force the government to impose limits on migrants from Romania and Bulgaria when the two countries join the EU in 1 January. The government predicts that 350,000 Romanians will come to Britain next year. Alistair Darling, the Trade and Industry Secretary, told the BBC that migration would be "properly controlled". Home Secretary John Reid said, "I don't believe in the free movement of labour: I believe the situation should be managed. You hear the same from ethnic minorities. There's nothing racist about it." But the Home Office insists that no final decision has been made and the Foreign Office is lobbying hard for no limits to be introduced.

Whose decision is it?
The point is, who decides? In a democracy, the majority should decide, even if some think they are wrong. What does it say about Britain, if the government imposes its view, against the clearly expressed wishes of the majority of the British people?

Immigration is and always has been a mechanism for depressing wages and undermining working class organisation. That is why the government and the CBI have declared that immigration is a good thing. To its shame, the TUC has endorsed their sentiments despite unemployment approaching 2 million and the decline in average earnings, including bonuses (National Office of Statistics June 2006).

And removing skilled labour from other economies does nothing for the development of those nations denuded of those skills; nor does it assist in the development of an organised working class in those countries. In the past 12 months both the South African Health Minister and the Pakistani ambassador to Britain have put in pleas to Britain to stop seizing their nurses and computer programmers respectively. Their polite requests have been ignored.

The West Indian immigrants who came here in the fifties and sixties were invited to take the low-paid jobs that British workers could not afford to take. This helped to maintain the low wages of those jobs, although to the credit of the unions, these workers did become organised. The immigrants from the Indian subcontinent who came to fill jobs in the textile industry were by and large confined to the lower-paid jobs. Sometimes unions such as the Knitwear and Hosiery Workers Union, as it was then, would insist that highly skilled knitting jobs be ring-fenced for British workers in order to maintain wage rates while lower-paid, less skilled jobs would be reserved for immigrants who would be outside the union. This is history – workers' defence of their skills and livelihood in a bad situation.

There has always been a relationship between immigration and wage rates. Today, that relationship is no different but much more critical. Our borders are open, immigration is on a gigantic scale and we face an influx of cheap Romanian and Bulgarian labour from January 2007.

Better life?
Of course migrants aspire to a better life, but they should fight for it in their own country – or how will it ever make progress. Poland's economy, for example, is being hamstrung by a shortage of workers. Even drafting in convicts to do essential work is not plugging the gap. And the situation in some African countries is even more dire.

Young men who abandon their country make things worse, not better. And we in Britain need to fight for progress here.

Further, British working people should not be cast as racists or against people from other nations. The question of training our own people is fundamental.

Employers moan at the lack of skills – quite understandably – but seek the cheap way forward. The same is occurring in the public sector. For example, local government will sponsor overseas workers to gain British recognised qualifications – running courses in London for Australian, New Zealand and South African teachers to boost their qualifications to British standards while completely failing to produce courses that could raise Londoners with qualifications just short of the required level.

People who squeak that racism is the core of the opposition to an unfettered movement of labour need to look at some of the consequences. White teachers from Commonwealth countries get preference over mature Londoners (black and white) who would otherwise be fast-tracked into teaching. Some of the inner London boroughs have unemployment levels (mainly black people) of over 8 per cent, yet jobs are going to EU migrants (mainly white). What can be more racist in our context than denying someone indigenous work by importing overseas labour?

Here are a few ideas to throw into the debate about what should be done:


Restrict the free movement of labour to Britain from Romania and Bulgaria if these countries join the EU on 1 January. Better still, don't let them join.

Control the export of capital. Because of the deliberately engineered skills shortage – abolition of apprenticeship, etc – manufacturing employers are threatening to move production abroad to Eastern Europe or China if their workforce refuses to accept Polish, Lithuanian or other East European skilled workers whom they want to employ on the National Minimum Wage instead of the skilled rate. How might we deal with this?

Well, one way would be to put in place controls on the export of capital to prevent them carrying out their threat. We could then insist that all immigrant workers require work permits, which would only be issued if the employers agreed to take on and train local workers to replace immigrant labour when they qualified or became indentured, and on condition that the employer paid the rate for the job. Government funds could assist this training. The immigrant labour would then be required to leave the country when this process was complete.

Prove no one can be recruited here. In the case of unskilled immigrant labour, perhaps the work permits would only be issued after the employer could prove that it had exhausted all means of local recruitment including substantially increasing pay. The employer would be required to pay the immigrant labour the highest rate of pay on which it had failed to recruit local labour.

The immigrant labour contracts would be limited to a defined duration when the employer would be forced to try and recruit local labour again. If the employer is contracted to a public service, the contract would be terminated if the employer failed to recruit local non-immigrant labour on the second attempt. Immigrant labour would be required to leave the country at the end of any work permit unless it was proven that it was impossible to recruit local labour on established rates of pay, in which case they could stay as British citizens and British workers.

Secure our borders. The concept of an amnesty for illegal immigrants is foolish if we don't have control over our own borders, as it would simply be followed by another wave of immigration. The first step must be to secure and control our borders. Every sovereign country has the right to know and control who comes in and who goes out of the country. Then maybe we should tackle the problem for what it is – 21st century slavery.

If a ship repair yard employer on Tyneside brings in a Polish workforce on the National Minimum Wage rather than the rate for the job, houses them in cabins inside the yard, and rotates them every ten weeks for a new workforce to prevent unionisation, that's slavery. People smugglers, gangsters and gang masters, and the new breed of employment agencies are the new slave traders, and illegal immigrants working in sweatshop conditions are the new slaves.

Let's outlaw new slavery in all its forms with punitive sentences appropriate to slavery. Any employer paying below the National Minimum Wage should be treated similarly. After this, we could put the illegal immigrants to the same test as skilled or unskilled immigrants referred to above. Those who choose not to work, or are involved in the black market or crime to survive, will have to leave the country.

Basic ideas to protect Britain
These are very basic ideas designed to protect British manufacturing, British workers and wage rates. To secure our borders we should bring British troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan to help create a border, security and customs force along with existing agencies and maybe a strong unit to enforce anti-slavery and immigration laws. That surely should be within the power of a sovereign state.

Unfortunately, all of this would be incompatible with EU laws and policy. In fact, the expanded EU was solely about free movement of labour and capital to help capitalism survive. This means that the British parliament has no real control over issues such as immigration and so the first step to controlling it would have to be withdrawal from the European Union.

The notion, shared by those on the ultra left through to the leadership of the TUC, that everyone in the world has a right to come here to work must be quashed: it is anti working class. If we decide to do these necessary things, we decide to take charge of the state ourselves as a class.

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.workers.org.uk%2F&ei=WJ6aT9CDHMiRiQe_vvS1Dg&usg=AFQjCNHX04Zb5MNEH1ibZcIbU6rD_v9Xeg


*******************************

[Crux]

Yes, tailing reactionary attitudes in the working class is hardly something new for stalinists. Instead of organizing the working class regardless of where they come from they maintain the illusion that a "strict immigration policy", imposed by bourgeoisie government no doubt, would protect working conditions. Fools.

[dodger]

Yes, tailing reactionary attitudes in the working class is hardly something new for stalinists. Instead of organizing the working class regardless of where they come from they maintain the illusion that a "strict immigration policy", imposed by bourgeoisie government no doubt, would protect working conditions. Fools.

You may well view the vast majority of Britons as reactionary or fools even. They have a clear idea that EU has not their interests at heart, to the extent of over 60% not voting. Certainly judging by the cadre I have come across they strain every sinew in advancing class interests. Nor do they make an artificial split as to where workers may have originated. They can at lest walk on both legs. With 50% black youth unemployed and blatant offering of jobs to foreign workers this issue is beyond skin colour too. Not only are workers voicing opinion, trade unionists, members of left parties on the ground are part of the sea swell. This debate wont be silenced any time soon. We all better have ideas or trail behind workers whose thinking is far avanced of leftists with empty phrases.

[Ocean Seal]

I want to come and live in your house. Is that ok?
I want to send you to the third world and have you work there for a couple of months? Is that alright? And then I'll see what you think about illegal immigration. Also aren't you a libertarian? How does mass immigration violate property rights? Isn't it inherently anti-thetical to libertarian doctrine to prevent people free movement? He's not asking to intrude on your "right" (lol) to private property. In fact you are supporting an inherently statist goal.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Why would anyone be looked down upon for wanting to preserve their own culture and ensuring that their economy remains relatively efficient?

lol
thanks for coming to revleft
we had a good laugh

[MotherCossack]

why.. yes i have four wonderful children... whom i love more than life itself.
and yes... the eldest did introduce me to rev-left.....
i was concerned with the amount of time he [colonel cossack] was spending on here and so when he suggested i join i thought....
hmmm... could work... he.. a stroppy teenager... who is increasingly less communicative... especially where i am concerned....
me... a caring... interested... relatively coherent... vaguely entertaining....concerned mother.... at least it would be a joint interest... and you never know...i might get the odd chat out of it...
and .. before you know it... hark at me ... i'm at it all the time... and more often than not biting off more than i can chew....

you know what i want.... a fair and bright future.... a sustainable existence which encourages everyone, includes everyone and does not come at the expense of anyone else or at a cost which we cannot afford.
we owe it to ourselves to at least try and make this thing work... in relative harmony....
all this bickering and nit-picking is not very civilised
yes ...immigration is a difficult issue especially at the moment... when power lies in the fumbling hands of a bunch of privileged, pampered and implausibly inept overgrown public schoolboys, who are clearly mis-guided and so monumentally out of their depth that it doesnt bear thinking about.
so not unpredictably the economy is strapped on to a rollercoaster ride that just keep on dipping further downwards... i would piss myself laughing... if i had independent means... and was more comfortably off...
to think that the electorate actually trust this lot more.... idiots!!!!!
remotely socialist?.. the labour party certainly are not.. . on the left at all?....well not really... but one thing seems as clear as day... the boys in pink have mastered the art of growing a juicy fat economy...
well anyway ... the boys in blue have it and... what manner of ineptitude is this??????
so ....... erm..... gorit!!!!! lets blame the foreigners!!!!!!!!!!
even though our colonial empire fucked the world ... over and over again......
we dont need compassion... we have learnt nothing about humanity.....we are as heinous and small minded as ever....

GAWD doncha just love old blighty.

[Offbeat]

To that end I support UKIP's proposal - a non racist freedom loving party...
:laugh:

[Franz Fanonipants]

why the shit did it take so long to ban this guy

[Left Leanings]

I'm glad he's gone anyway.

His whole raison d'etre was to wind us all up. I stopped arguing with him ages ago.

[W1N5T0N]

remember, the ones who brought the immigrants over were the cappies themselves as they wanted cheap labor. Now they are tired of their toys..

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Chefdave: from why are right- wing libertarians demonized to why is it wrong to oppose immigration. Poetic Irony:cool:
Sorry, I just had to...;)

[Left Leanings]

remember, the ones who brought the immigrants over were the cappies themselves as they wanted cheap labor. Now they are tired of their toys..

Enoch Powell when he was in ministerial office, gave the go-ahead for immigration from the Afro-Carribean and the Asian Sub-Continent. The bosses needed to make good the deficit in the labour force.

Then when they had served their purpose, he shit all over them. Thanks a lot like - but go back. The two-faced Tory bastard.

[daft punk]

I'm a Eastern.. well actually Lithuania is Northern Europe.. Yeah, so I'm a Northern European in England taking urrr jobz. Should I be immediately sent back to the foreign lands from whence I came?

Dave you should watch some Doug Stanhope, you'll feel much better.

Doug Stanhope on nationalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPDT5qHtZ4

Well, you call yourself a Stalinist but what did Stalin do for Eastern Europe? In the end all those countries went capitalist, because the Stalinist version of 'socialism' wasn't working, and because the elites feared actual socialism and would rather have capitalism.

You come over here because your economy was crap to start with and is still crap. The answer is socialism here and in your country. Then it wouldn't matter where you were. Actually Lithuania is doing quite well, I'm just generalising there.

But you have to look at it through the eyes of unemployed Brits, or Brits struggling to find work. They have nothing against foreigners, they just worry that there aren't enough jobs.

It's actually a false argument to a large extent, it's not like the number of jobs is completely fixed. More people require more people, immigrants need the services of Brits. When I was self employed I worked for plenty of immigrants. I have read that immigrants are usually net contributors to the economy. All I'm saying is we should be careful not to alienate workers by condemning them for understandable fears. We need to explain things, not just condemn.

[daft punk]

I want to come and live in your house. Is that ok?

Cj8JrQ9w5jY

you can come to mine, I might need a lodger soon, do you do your own washing up?

seriously, I didnt know we owned the UK I thought we just inhabited it.

[Leftsolidarity]

Well, you call yourself a Stalinist but what did Stalin do for Eastern Europe? In the end all those countries went capitalist, because the Stalinist version of 'socialism' wasn't working, and because the elites feared actual socialism and would rather have capitalism.



OMG. STFU.



You come over here because your economy was crap to start with and is still crap. The answer is socialism here and in your country. Then it wouldn't matter where you were. Actually Lithuania is doing quite well, I'm just generalising there.


It's not his economy nor is it his country. You're playing into bourgeois nationalism and bourgeois economics.



But you have to look at it through the eyes of unemployed Brits, or Brits struggling to find work. They have nothing against foreigners, they just worry that there aren't enough jobs.



Xenophobia apologism


All I'm saying is we should be careful not to alienate workers by condemning them for understandable fears. We need to explain things, not just condemn.

You're not explaining things; you're being an apologist. You're comprimising your position to not "alienate" people that hold racist/xenophobic views.


You seem to be forgetting the fact that it is in international working class. It is not his country or your country or any of that. It is the bourgeoisie's. We do not have a country. This comes directly out of the manifesto.

[Franz Fanonipants]

this thread is everything wrong w/revleft

[Crux]

Well, you call yourself a Stalinist but what did Stalin do for Eastern Europe? In the end all those countries went capitalist, because the Stalinist version of 'socialism' wasn't working, and because the elites feared actual socialism and would rather have capitalism.

You come over here because your economy was crap to start with and is still crap. The answer is socialism here and in your country. Then it wouldn't matter where you were. Actually Lithuania is doing quite well, I'm just generalising there.

But you have to look at it through the eyes of unemployed Brits, or Brits struggling to find work. They have nothing against foreigners, they just worry that there aren't enough jobs.

It's actually a false argument to a large extent, it's not like the number of jobs is completely fixed. More people require more people, immigrants need the services of Brits. When I was self employed I worked for plenty of immigrants. I have read that immigrants are usually net contributors to the economy. All I'm saying is we should be careful not to alienate workers by condemning them for understandable fears. We need to explain things, not just condemn.broseph's name is ironic.
And yes it is a false logic that immigrants "take jobs" and a tactic to divide the workingclass. This needs to be exposed and explained but we should not be making excuses for this attitude.

[dodger]

OMG. STFU.



It's not his economy nor is it his country. You're playing into bourgeois nationalism and bourgeois economics.



Xenophobia apologism



You're not explaining things; you're being an apologist. You're comprimising your position to not "alienate" people that hold racist/xenophobic views.


You seem to be forgetting the fact that it is in international working class. It is not his country or your country or any of that. It is the bourgeoisie's. We do not have a country. This comes directly out of the manifesto.

Surprised to hear you call Britons racist and Xenophobic, of course that might well become true if we are labelled enough times like Chav. Strange both my wives black as coal scuttles never complained. The brats complained They are all gainfully employed. Once I packed their bags and told them to go and live with Aunty 'm' in Barbados. They decided to stay. Migration is surely an economic issue? Why join hands with BNP et al and turn it into something else. Talk about playing into their hands. Black people it might surprise some have a voice, at work they came down strongly against EU social dumping. Canny? Just a suspicion that their kids might well lose jobs to East Europeans. Were they right? Well were they? Or just racist?

[Leftsolidarity]

Surprised to hear you call Britons racist and Xenophobic, of course that might well become true if we are labelled enough times like Chav. Strange both my wives black as coal scuttles never complained. The brats complained They are all gainfully employed. Once I packed their bags and told them to go and live with Aunty 'm' in Barbados. They decided to stay. Migration is surely an economic issue? Why join hands with BNP et al and turn it into something else. Talk about playing into their hands. Black people it might surprise some have a voice, at work they came down strongly against EU social dumping. Canny? Just a suspicion that their kids might well lose jobs to East Europeans. Were they right? Well were they? Or just racist?

lol dodger, I'm sorry. I just can't understand anything you say.

[Franz Fanonipants]

right and racist are not mutually exclusive categories under capitalism

theres a reason people are racist and it sure isn't because of innate human nature or biology

class consciousness about the way that capitalism uses race does not equal an automatic enlightened separation from the racist mechanisms that collude

[Manic Impressive]

You're not explaining things; you're being an apologist. You're comprimising your position to not "alienate" people that hold racist/xenophobic views.

That's an interesting point, something I've always wanted to ask how do you lot react when you're out on the street talking to the public and you find out one of them is racist or xenophobic or whatever?

Do you beat the shit out of them while filming it on your camera phone and drawing swastikas on their fore heads?

Or do you speak to them about their concerns and give them some truth without talking down to them?

I know this is assuming that some of you actually talk to workers about socialism a big if for some I know. My little group has recently been purposefully targeting areas where there is a lot of racial tension due to high immigration and low unemployment and so far we've been relatively successful.

[Franz Fanonipants]

lol dodger, I'm sorry. I just can't understand anything you say.

he's saying that black folks in the UK objected to immigration from the EU because Poles etc. would drive down worker's rights and job numbers

[dodger]

lol dodger, I'm sorry. I just can't understand anything you say.

Apologies left solidarity, perhaps A more clear approach is called for. It comes down to this migration is viewed as an economic question. OH THANK YOU Franz...you dug me out of the hole i dug myself. yES lEFT....FRANZ IS ON THE BUTTON.

[Leftsolidarity]

That's an interesting point, something I've always wanted to ask how do you lot react when you're out on the street talking to the public and you find out one of them is racist or xenophobic or whatever?

Do you beat the shit out of them while filming it on your camera phone and drawing swastikas on their fore heads?

Or do you speak to them about their concerns and give them some truth without talking down to them?

I know this is assuming that some of you actually talk to workers about socialism a big if for some I know. My little group has recently been purposefully targeting areas where there is a lot of racial tension due to high immigration and low unemployment and so far we've been relatively successful.

It would definitely depend on the individual situation. I do talk to many people, including random people on the street.

That's where the difference between rhetoric and talking to individuals definitely comes into play.

I would say it is important to converse with them, listen to what they are saying, and try to talk about how they are drawing false (racist) conclusions from circumstances cause by something else (capitalism).

It's important to never compromise on the position of anti-racism/xenohobia, though. Which is what I feel Daft Punk is doing.

[daft punk]

"Well, you call yourself a Stalinist but what did Stalin do for Eastern Europe? In the end all those countries went capitalist, because the Stalinist version of 'socialism' wasn't working, and because the elites feared actual socialism and would rather have capitalism. "
OMG. STFU.

No, you stfu. The fact is that a lot of immigration is from countries with fucked up economies. Eastern Europe being a prime example.



"You come over here because your economy was crap to start with and is still crap. The answer is socialism here and in your country. Then it wouldn't matter where you were. Actually Lithuania is doing quite well, I'm just generalising there. "
It's not his economy nor is it his country. You're playing into bourgeois nationalism and bourgeois economics.

No I'm not, I didnt say he owned Lithuania, I used a common expression of association. How the fuck can "the answer is socialism" be bourgeois?




"But you have to look at it through the eyes of unemployed Brits, or Brits struggling to find work. They have nothing against foreigners, they just worry that there aren't enough jobs. "

Xenophobia apologism

So second generation blacks and asians are xenophobic? Their parents came here when there was no unemployment, things are different now, they are struggling to find work.



"All I'm saying is we should be careful not to alienate workers by condemning them for understandable fears. We need to explain things, not just condemn. "

You're not explaining things; you're being an apologist. You're comprimising your position to not "alienate" people that hold racist/xenophobic views.

Here is a list of things I explained:

1. Capitalism is the cause of the recession
2. The solution is socialism
3. Immigrants do not take jobs overall because they also create jobs (eg when they employed me)
4. Immigrants are net contributors to the economy
5. Just because you are born here does not mean you own the country
6. The Stalinists are part of the problem not the solution.
7. That immigrants should be unionised and not paid lower wages - no race to the bottom

I have not apologised for racism or xenophobia. When did I do that? In fact I did the opposite. I thanked a post which opposed a Stalinist proposing strict immigration controls, have a go at him, not me. I pointed out that this was nothing to do with racism or xenophobia but was simply a worry about employment. I said we should not agree with any calls for immigration controls. I pointed to an example of the correct strategy at the Lindsey oil refinery dispute. I explained that foreign trade unionists supported the CWI line.



You seem to be forgetting the fact that it is in international working class. It is not his country or your country or any of that. It is the bourgeoisie's. We do not have a country. This comes directly out of the manifesto.
good job you told me that or I never would have known. In case you hadnt realised the I in CWI is international. They have branches in 35 countries.

Dont come the high and fucking mighty with me. You represent an obscure Stalinist sect and Stalin gave up internationalism in 1924.


broseph's name is ironic.
And yes it is a false logic that immigrants "take jobs" and a tactic to divide the workingclass. This needs to be exposed and explained but we should not be making excuses for this attitude.


broseph's name is ironic.
And yes it is a false logic that immigrants "take jobs" and a tactic to divide the workingclass. This needs to be exposed and explained but we should not be making excuses for this attitude.

"We totally reject the ultra-left's dismissal - or even the adoption of an initially hostile approach - to workers who blame immigrants for their economic woes."

CWI statement

BRITISH PERSPECTIVES May 2011
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/campaign/Anti-racism/Immigration/12065

I explained, how does that become making excuses? What is the difference? It exists, I said we should not condemn workers for it, that is the official policy of your organisation.

[daft punk]

lol dodger, I'm sorry. I just can't understand anything you say.
He did actually just make a good point, it was pretty clear, you know what social dumping is, right?

[Franz Fanonipants]

i guess xenophobic and right is a better fit to what i meant

cus like if you think that black people are an inferior species you're objectively wrong

well except that structurally capitalism does actually class black workers as inferior to white workers and tries pretty hard to make good on that premise

e: blah blah not a third worldist boilerplate shit blah

[dodger]

"It's important to never compromise on the position of anti-racism/xenohobia, though. Which is what I feel Daft Punk is doing."

Sure daft punk can speak for himself, no doubt we all have our own ideas about communication. I never sensed there was a liberal approach in his views. Glad he had a respectful one, it pays dividends, especially if one finds oneself corrected on a wrong idea. Its a two way business or it is nothing. Useless. People just wont stand for lectures or hectoring...we can go home and listen to that. The debate on migration must be met head on...alternative....leave it to the Tea Party..or BNP. Manic and his friends at least have the bit between their teeth and no doubt daft punk too.

[W1N5T0N]

to the english comrades:

Why do some working class british vote tory?

[Franz Fanonipants]

hegemony

mystification

whatever you like

[Manic Impressive]

This is a good documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7fETsKYkA) on the history of racism and anti immigration in the UK since the 60's

[dodger]

to the english comrades:

Why do some working class british vote tory?

With a Christian name like yours? I CAN SAY, OTHERS MAY DISAGREE, THERE IS NO FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANY OF THE THEM. All firmly in cahoots with the city, Murdoch of course, though that is unravelling. The voter will often use the vote to punish one or the other of the 3 main ones. There existed the myth that the Tory's were a safe pair of hands, on economic matters. Labour was dire the Tories will no doubt match them. The issues of law and order resonate with us, but they are blown out of all proportion until a spiral of accusations and counter, that the other lot are 'soft'. Perhaps the Saatchi treatment is called for. There exists too a natural conservatism amongst us, the Tories tap into that. Snobbery. At the end of the day I have no choice...I wont vote.

[Leftsolidarity]

No I'm not, I didnt say he owned Lithuania, I used a common expression of association. How the fuck can "the answer is socialism" be bourgeois?



You keep referring to it in the form of bourgeois nation states though and that we have some sort of connection or belonging to them. As if it is "my" country because I was born here. It is the bourgeoisie's country. We have no ties to their states.



So second generation blacks and asians are xenophobic? Their parents came here when there was no unemployment, things are different now, they are struggling to find work.


Uhh, if they hold xenophobic views then how are they not xenophobic? Immigrants could be xenophobic. That's a terribly flawed argument you just gave.




Here is a list of things I explained:

1. Capitalism is the cause of the recession
2. The solution is socialism
3. Immigrants do not take jobs overall because they also create jobs (eg when they employed me)
4. Immigrants are net contributors to the economy
5. Just because you are born here does not mean you own the country
6. The Stalinists are part of the problem not the solution.



What the fuck do "Stalinists" have to do with any of this?



I have not apologised for racism or xenophobia. When did I do that? In fact I did the opposite.

Here


I pointed out that this was nothing to do with racism or xenophobia but was simply a worry about employment.

That's incorrect and is excusing racism/xenophobia as a "just" worry.



Dont come the high and fucking mighty with me. You represent an obscure Stalinist sect and Stalin gave up internationalism in 1924.


I do? I don't like Stalin and I was just arguing on the side of internationalism. So honestly, I don't have a fucking clue why you are saying this stuff. (once again, though, everything is somehow connected to an old dead guy that has nothing to do with this discussion)

[Grenzer]

Daft Punk has to turn every thread into part of anti-stalinist crusade.

He probably thinks that Stalinists are responsible for the Civil War at this point. Damn those Union bastards! If only they had accepted Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution rather than turning to the Stalinist idea of capitalism in one country, then the South wouldn't have seceded!

Leftsolidarity is a member of the WWP. His politics have fuck all to do with Stalinism.

[black magick hustla]

anyone who opposes immigration is my worst enemy and i want him/her dead

[Ostrinski]

I command all who are in this thread talking about Stalin and the Soviet Union to stop talking about Stalin and the Soviet Union. Let's stay on topic, folks.

[gorillafuck]

anyone who opposes immigration is my worst enemy and i want him/her deadOH MEXICANS

but yeah seriously, there is no "left wing" justification for opposing any sort of immigration and even the "but under capitalism!" arguments are full of shit because it is basically saying "but under capitalism english/american/whoever people deserve jobs more than foreigners" which is just as full of shit as xenophobia that isn't hidden behind left wing rhetoric

all immigrants should be let in to anywhere

[black magick hustla]

white ppl plundered the earth and through that primitive and capital accumulation they created their cities why do they deserve to live there more than anyone else

[black magick hustla]

blhblahblahj

fuck those brits then i hope their neighborhoods get plastered with mosques and brown muslims and the children of brown muslims

[black magick hustla]

gulag should only exist for anti immigration ppl, their prison cells would be plastered with defaced flags

[NewLeft]

OH MEXICANS

but yeah seriously, there is no "left wing" justification for opposing any sort of immigration and even the "but under capitalism!" arguments are full of shit because it is basically saying "but under capitalism english/american/whoever people deserve jobs more than foreigners" which is just as full of shit as xenophobia that isn't hidden behind left wing rhetoric

all immigrants should be let in to anywhere
one thing that daft punk stated that was true is that even under bourgeois economics, there is no basis for less immigration because net employment increases with more immigrants.

[JAM]

The immigrant is just another victim of the capitalist system, so why put the blames on immigration? Instead of putting rightfully the blame on the system and its leaders, people (specially the reactionary one) like to find easy scapegoats and the immigrants are an easy target to canalize their personal frustrations. It's much more easy to blame the others (mainly foreigners) than to look inside and search for our own failures.

[MotherCossack]

to the english comrades:

Why do some working class british vote tory?

quite a lot do..... sadly....
yep... i know makes me fair puke i can tell ya...
reason.... the poor fuckers , i reckon, aspire to join the bourgeoise....
they are fed shite... by sun... mail....
they convince each other with very little prompting from them that stand to gain much....that ... it is right and proper and fitting to be a conservative and vote for the tories...
british people like family values... and the establishment and the status quo.... dont they.....!
it is a seriously large pain in the neck... i mean the nearest thing we got to revolution was when ... oh i s'pose we got the king bumped off........but no.. that was a middle class thing... and anyway we soon reversed that... pretty short lived republic.....then.... well there was the industrial revolution......
well that just involved making everything a whole heap worse for the poor and heralded the huge expansion of wage slavery.....
we are idiots... for sure....some of the remarks you hear are so misguided ... it is both tragic and laughable. the worst offenders are usually the most belligerent.... enough to drive a red girl mad ....i am sure!

[shankane]

gulag should only exist for anti immigration ppl, their prison cells would be plastered with defaced flags

Have you read the black vagina discussion on libcom? Some really sad stuff. Makes you wonder how common these sentiments are among British anarchists...

libcom. org/forums/libcommunity/fucking-pc-gone-mad-rant-thread-17062009

[The Machine]

why is it that whenever someone tries to use leftism as a justification for their racism or bigotry or just general shittiness its always gotta be a trot or stalinist. rns thats what the fuck happens when your stuck in like 1939.

or like some white anti imperialist stupid who thinks he's a third world rebel but really is a latin american orientalist go back to bowling or 80s night or whatever the fuck else you people used do on the weekends.

[shankane]

why is it that whenever someone tries to use leftism as a justification for their racism or bigotry or just general shittiness its always gotta be a trot or stalinist.

it doesnt. check this shit

libcom .org/forums/libcommunity/fucking-pc-gone-mad-rant-thread-17062009

it wont let me post links yet for some reason so fix the space i put in there when u type it into ur browser

[Crux]

So second generation blacks and asians are xenophobic? Their parents came here when there was no unemployment, things are different now, they are struggling to find work.


Here is a list of things I explained:

1. Capitalism is the cause of the recession
2. The solution is socialism
3. Immigrants do not take jobs overall because they also create jobs (eg when they employed me)
4. Immigrants are net contributors to the economy
5. Just because you are born here does not mean you own the country
6. The Stalinists are part of the problem not the solution.
7. That immigrants should be unionised and not paid lower wages - no race to the bottom

I have not apologised for racism or xenophobia. When did I do that? In fact I did the opposite. I thanked a post which opposed a Stalinist proposing strict immigration controls, have a go at him, not me. I pointed out that this was nothing to do with racism or xenophobia but was simply a worry about employment. I said we should not agree with any calls for immigration controls. I pointed to an example of the correct strategy at the Lindsey oil refinery dispute. I explained that foreign trade unionists supported the CWI line.


good job you told me that or I never would have known. In case you hadnt realised the I in CWI is international. They have branches in 35 countries.

Dont come the high and fucking mighty with me. You represent an obscure Stalinist sect and Stalin gave up internationalism in 1924.





"We totally reject the ultra-left's dismissal - or even the adoption of an initially hostile approach - to workers who blame immigrants for their economic woes."

CWI statement

BRITISH PERSPECTIVES May 2011
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/campaign/Anti-racism/Immigration/12065

I explained, how does that become making excuses? What is the difference? It exists, I said we should not condemn workers for it, that is the official policy of your organisation. well I think the problem I have with what you're saying, comrade, is that you postulate that anti-immigration attitudes have nothing to do with xenophobia. That doesn't mean many worker's aren't lead to anti-immigration attitudes for a fear over jobs, but is this a 'legitimate' opinion or is it cultivated by the political establishment and the rightwing media, full of dogwhistle racism and xenophobia? Whetever a person is 2nd generation east indian or not makes no difference. I've met 1t generation immigrants with xenophobic and racist views.
Also when was there no unemployment? I mean I absolutly get the "don't have a hostile attitude"-thing and I do think we can explain our position to worker's in order to dispell such myths. And explaining how "they're taking our jobs" connect with xenophobia is part of that.
Comradely.

[Crux]

Daft Punk has to turn every thread into part of anti-stalinist crusade.

He probably thinks that Stalinists are responsible for the Civil War at this point. Damn those Union bastards! If only they had accepted Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution rather than turning to the Stalinist idea of capitalism in one country, then the South wouldn't have seceded!

Leftsolidarity is a member of the WWP. His politics have fuck all to do with Stalinism.

to be fair, dodger posted that CPBML article. Never heard of them before but their slogan is "rebuild brittain.". I may be wrong but suchs currents of thought seems to be less common among the stalinists in the U.S ocassional "patriotism" notwithstanding. I consider the marcyite twin parties to be stalinist but I've never gotten the anti-immigrant vibe from them, either their members on here or their positions. Although they'd probably whitewash anti-immigration attitudes from whatever regime they think is anti-imperialist. Say khaddafi's collussion with the EU over fort europa. But all this is a side point.

[-NW2-]

The left needs to be careful on this issue. We cannot jump down workers' throats for opposing immigration. The OP is right that 5 million immigrants entered the UK in the last 10 years, an unprecedented wave. Personally I am currently unemployed, looking for work, and there are Eastern Europeans everywhere. I paid taxes for decades, but I might not even get any benefits. I was getting my hair cut the other day and the hairdresser was going on about it, how many Polish hairdressers there are and so on. We can't just call them racists. Sometimes it's second generation people from the Caribbean and South Asia complaining about these Eastern Europeans.

We have to beware of joining in, obviously, because it lends weight to the far right. But we can't just slag down workers worried about unemployment. Many Eastern Europeans who came here in by the way have been made unemployed themselves. Some go back and others become homeless.

So we have to explain the issues, we have to concentrate on making sure immigrants are unionised and not undercutting wages. We can't support a race to the bottom. Many on the left got this wrong when the Lindsey dispute kicked off, accusing the CWI of pandering to the far right. The fact is the opposite, the CWI made the strike about wages and not about immigration. They were supported by foreign trade unionists.

We have to explain that the solution is socialism, and the answer to 'we are full up' is to help other countries get their economies going, which will need socialism. The recession is a by-product of capitalism itself, profit is the cause of 'overcapacity'.

'The left' that would jump down the throats of workers concerned about mass immigration pretty much have no connection to actual working class people anyway. Hysterical middle class students, members of 'Revolutionary' parties etc have next to no influence on working people.

I hate racism, but what I hate nearly as much is some of the reactions to peoples genuine concerns when in the space of a few years the area they live in changes beyond recognition and unrecognisably.

Now instead of attempting to explain to people that most of these people are exploited as well and it is in the exploiters interest to divide us and to vote for parties like the Tories or UKIP because they say they will 'do something' about immigration is wrong as the Tories and UKIP and their rich backers and cronies directly benefit from exploiting workers from around the world and driving down the wages and conditions of British workers or immigrants who have been established here for a long time.

What most on the 'left' end up doing, like one of the posters on here basically said (not yourself DP), is tell the workers their culture is s***. They are guilty of imperialist crimes committed in the past, capitalist crimes committed today and so their culture counts for nothing. They deserve what is happening to them.

What a vote winner! Im suprised more working class people arent on board with these 'revolutionaries'!

[dodger]

'The left' that would jump down the throats of workers concerned about mass immigration pretty much have no connection to actual working class people anyway. Hysterical middle class students, members of 'Revolutionary' parties etc have next to no influence on working people.

I hate racism, but what I hate nearly as much is some of the reactions to peoples genuine concerns when in the space of a few years the area they live in changes beyond recognition and unrecognisably.

Now instead of attempting to explain to people that most of these people are exploited as well and it is in the exploiters interest to divide us and to vote for parties like the Tories or UKIP because they say they will 'do something' about immigration is wrong as the Tories and UKIP and their rich backers and cronies directly benefit from exploiting workers from around the world and driving down the wages and conditions of British workers or immigrants who have been established here for a long time.

What most on the 'left' end up doing, like one of the posters on here basically said (not yourself DP), is tell the workers their culture is s***. They are guilty of imperialist crimes committed in the past, capitalist crimes committed today and so their culture counts for nothing. They deserve what is happening to them.

What a vote winner! Im suprised more working class people arent on board with these 'revolutionaries'!

You have set the standard.NW2


You make good points, clearly garnered from your own observation. A debate requires thought, the more people contribute to that debate, the less chance of those BNP rats profiting from confusion. All attempts to stifle working class debate will end in failure. 400 EU paid British University academics are not enough to construct a single argument that makes sense to us. Anti worker laws framed for the benefit of big business do what they say on the packet. The thought of opposing EU laws is obviously beyond some folks abilities. The very people doing effective work assisting newly arrived workers are attacked for their opposition to big business legislation. How mealy mouthed.

[Regicollis]

One should not underestimate that anti-immigrant feelings in the working class are a reaction to real problems. The working class is being robbed and humiliated and need a good explanation why. Unfortunately the socialist explanation is being suppressed while the shit spewed out by racist bourgeois demagogues is being served to the working class on a daily basis through the mass media.

Also the bourgeoisie has been using and is using immigration as a weapon in the class war. Immigrants from poor countries does not demand the same pay and benefits as workers from rich countries. The bourgeoisie can use this directly by hiring immigrants, as a threat to workers demanding more and as a vehicle for political propaganda ("I can't get any [rich country] workers to pick my strawberries so I have to hire [poor country] workers" - i.e. workers from rich countries are spoiled, lazy and ungrateful and is paid way too much).

I think that as long as a capitalist system remains a socialist response to immigration should be that no employer should be allowed to pay immigrants less than they would a non-immigrant worker.

[Manic Impressive]

but yeah seriously, there is no "left wing" justification for opposing any sort of immigration and even the "but under capitalism!" arguments are full of shit because it is basically saying "but under capitalism english/american/whoever people deserve jobs more than foreigners" which is just as full of shit as xenophobia that isn't hidden behind left wing rhetoric

all immigrants should be let in to anywhere
Got to pull you up on this on a historical basis as the 1st international was formed to discuss the problem of foreign workers being brought in to break strikes.
It's an issue that was included in the programme of the Parti Ouvrier which Marx, Engels, Lafargue and Guesde wrote together. This I think is a good way of solving the problem even though it is a dirty dirty reformist policy.



Legal prohibition of bosses employing foreign workers at a wage less than that of French workers;

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htm

[Crux]

One should not underestimate that anti-immigrant feelings in the working class are a reaction to real problems. The working class is being robbed and humiliated and need a good explanation why. Unfortunately the socialist explanation is being suppressed while the shit spewed out by racist bourgeois demagogues is being served to the working class on a daily basis through the mass media.

Also the bourgeoisie has been using and is using immigration as a weapon in the class war. Immigrants from poor countries does not demand the same pay and benefits as workers from rich countries. The bourgeoisie can use this directly by hiring immigrants, as a threat to workers demanding more and as a vehicle for political propaganda ("I can't get any [rich country] workers to pick my strawberries so I have to hire [poor country] workers" - i.e. workers from rich countries are spoiled, lazy and ungrateful and is paid way too much).

I think that as long as a capitalist system remains a socialist response to immigration should be that no employer should be allowed to pay immigrants less than they would a non-immigrant worker.
Because they are in a far more exposed situation and because they are not organized.

[Franz Fanonipants]

why is it that whenever someone tries to use leftism as a justification for their racism or bigotry or just general shittiness its always gotta be a trot or stalinist. rns thats what the fuck happens when your stuck in like 1939.

or like some white anti imperialist stupid who thinks he's a third world rebel but really is a latin american orientalist go back to bowling or 80s night or whatever the fuck else you people used do on the weekends.

Haha yeah in my first week on this site a bunch of leftcom peeholes were talking about native Americans being loincloth wearing virgin sacrificing savages

dumbass no ideological orientation gets rid of the overriding racism of capitalism

ask j random atheist anarchist how he feels about Muslims and tell me racist shit wont come out

[Franz Fanonipants]

'The left' that would jump down the throats of workers concerned about mass immigration pretty much have no connection to actual working class people anyway. Hysterical middle class students, members of 'Revolutionary' parties etc have next to no influence on working people.

I hate racism, but what I hate nearly as much is some of the reactions to peoples genuine concerns when in the space of a few years the area they live in changes beyond recognition and unrecognisably.

Now instead of attempting to explain to people that most of these people are exploited as well and it is in the exploiters interest to divide us and to vote for parties like the Tories or UKIP because they say they will 'do something' about immigration is wrong as the Tories and UKIP and their rich backers and cronies directly benefit from exploiting workers from around the world and driving down the wages and conditions of British workers or immigrants who have been established here for a long time.

What most on the 'left' end up doing, like one of the posters on here basically said (not yourself DP), is tell the workers their culture is s***. They are guilty of imperialist crimes committed in the past, capitalist crimes committed today and so their culture counts for nothing. They deserve what is happening to them.

What a vote winner! Im suprised more working class people arent on board with these 'revolutionaries'!

Ban this nazi fuck

[The Machine]

Haha yeah in my first week on this site a bunch of leftcom peeholes were talking about native Americans being loincloth wearing virgin sacrificing savages

dumbass no ideological orientation gets rid of the overriding racism of capitalism

ask j random atheist anarchist how he feels about Muslims and tell me racist shit wont come out


I'm talking about actual organizations with racist/anti-immigrant platforms tho not some jerkoff on the internet. Historically its been the CPUSA who were apologists for Japanese internment and segregated units in the army, antisemitism in the CCCP, British Trotskyist partys apologizing for anti-immigrant sentiment today, ect. If your CP is essentially advocating social democracy at the tip of a bayonet, its a lot more likely that it'll have racist and nationalistic baggage thats inherent to capital tied to it. You can't have a state without borders and if you defend borders you're anti-immigrant.
I'm an atheist and have anarchist sympathies and I'm against Islam, but that doesn't make me a racist. Any way you spin it Islam in the Middle East is one of the biggest reactionary movements. Your average Sam Harris type dude complaining about Muslim immigrants is a racist, but I doubt an anarchist at a punk show or food not bombs who is a militant atheist is too into that. I doubt you'll find too many anarchists defending borders, and you'll certainly never see an anarchist organization oppose immigration.

[Franz Fanonipants]

blah blah blah ideology is great I love idealism blah blah blah

[The Machine]

back when Communism was actually relevant the big statist CPs and unions had a pretty poor track record on racism and immigration. you know like back when that kind of shit had a material affect on a decent chunk of the population rather than a handful of moon bats and soviet empire forum posters.

[The Machine]

racist ideology matters and is a problem except for when it doesnt

#dialecticalreasoning

[black magick hustla]

', members of 'Revolutionary' parties etc have next to no influence on working people.
!

i assume u are the mouthpiece of the british working class then, i am glad the british working class has the non-studentiy non-middle class types of u as proxy in an internet left forum


this is a fucking discussion forum. i never claimed that the british working class is guilty of anything but that they do not have more right to be/work there than anybody else. i am sorry if i don't shed a crocodile tear for fucking xenophobia when it is my livelihood that is at stake every time those boneheads are whining about the likes of me.

[Leftsolidarity]

'The left' that would jump down the throats of workers concerned about mass immigration pretty much have no connection to actual working class people anyway. Hysterical middle class students, members of 'Revolutionary' parties etc have next to no influence on working people.


Thank you, great messager from the working class.



I hate racism, but what I hate nearly as much is some of the reactions to peoples genuine concerns when in the space of a few years the area they live in changes beyond recognition and unrecognisably.

What? Doesn't sound like you hate racism at all other than when it's clearly labelled as such and it's so blatant you can't ignore it. You spin the racism and xenophobia as "genuine concerns" and sympathize. You seem to lack the ability to recognize bigotry unless they are giving seig heil's or wearing white robes.




Now instead of attempting to explain to people that most of these people are exploited as well and it is in the exploiters interest to divide us and to vote for parties like the Tories or UKIP because they say they will 'do something' about immigration is wrong as the Tories and UKIP and their rich backers and cronies directly benefit from exploiting workers from around the world and driving down the wages and conditions of British workers or immigrants who have been established here for a long time.

What most on the 'left' end up doing, like one of the posters on here basically said (not yourself DP), is tell the workers their culture is s***. They are guilty of imperialist crimes committed in the past, capitalist crimes committed today and so their culture counts for nothing. They deserve what is happening to them.

What a vote winner! Im suprised more working class people arent on board with these 'revolutionaries'!

........what?.......

I'm pretty sure everyone agreed that education on the subject is key. I also don't know of anybody that does anything like what you're saying.

Really, that's basically just a straight up lie. No one says "their culture is shit" and no one (except for maybe MTW's but then again they don't even exist in real life) blames the working class for imperialism or capitalism and no one says that the workers deserve what happens to them. That's almost the exact opposite of what communists say. Seriously, where the fuck are you getting that shit from?

[NewLeft]

Now instead of attempting to explain to people that most of these people are exploited as well and it is in the exploiters interest to divide us and to vote for parties like the Tories or UKIP because they say they will 'do something' about immigration is wrong as the Tories and UKIP and their rich backers and cronies directly benefit from exploiting workers from around the world and driving down the wages and conditions of British workers or immigrants who have been established here for a long time.
A wage graph with immigration has no correlation, the change between 1970 to today would be negligible.


!
Are these accusations of [imperialism committed by] the british state not true? The problem is that you view the british state and the people as one.

[black magick hustla]

the funny thing is that even the american left knows better than to go off about infantile rants about omg my neighborhood is changing my neighbor happens to speak mexican!!!!!!

some people mistake a communist outlook with rotten workerism. the moon is not made of fucking cheese just because the hardhat miner brigade had a consensus about it. but when you have rotten wannabe bureacrats who tail the trade unions and the labor parties, under the mistaken pretence that this putrid organizations are the heart of the class no wonder why you get some dumbass who thinks he is clever by calling anyone who doesn't take seriously the sentiments that "their neighborhoods are changing beyond recognition" as "students" or "middle class wankers". there are plenty of working people who don't whine about fuckin pakis and sand niggers taking over or w/e

[Franz Fanonipants]

back when Communism was actually relevant the big statist CPs and unions had a pretty poor track record on racism and immigration. you know like back when that kind of shit had a material affect on a decent chunk of the population rather than a handful of moon bats and soviet empire forum posters.

bro basically you are constructing history to suit your own needs

unions were problematic, but hardline moscow-oriented cps were pretty much out there fighting against racism in the US

[Jimmie Higgins]

bro basically you are constructing history to suit your own needs

unions were problematic, but hardline moscow-oriented cps were pretty much out there fighting against racism in the US

Right. I've been reading "Communists in Harlem" which is very interesting and about the CP's efforts to create a black revolutionary cadre as well as turn the entire party into an anti-racist organization. The CP was light-years ahead of the Socialist Party which did have racist and nationalist elements and that was even better than the trade-union movement that had open white supremacist policies in many places.

The negative legacy of the CP can be seen reflected in things like "The Invisible Man" which basically argues that while their ideals were good, ultimately the white CP was still just using blacks, but instead of for money, they used them for Russia and Revolution. The grain of truth to this is that the CPUS did drop their anti-black racism focus as they integrated themselves into the Democratic party. It would have been impossible to cozy up to the Democratic party while also denouncing the segregation and white supremacy of the Southern wing of the party.

The irony is that the efforts to make anti-racism central to the party came from the top of the party and Moscow and was initially resisted by the (European) immigrant-dominated sections which were the ones that shared urban working class areas most closely with black workers in the north. But what can be dictated from the top can also be undone from the top, so IMO, the CP's problem with the "racism question" was really related to bigger problems with the communist movement after the 1920s.