Leftist Infighting

[Aflameoffreedom]

We know our history of leftist infighting and bloodshed; Makhno and the Russian Civil War, Kronstadt, the Spanish Civil War etc. yet now we are more than seventy years later, a new century, new contexts such as the globalization of capitalism and the needs of a dying planet, with completely new generations of revolutionaries. Whether an authoritarian communist or an anti-authoritarian anarchist when we meet each other or cross paths it should be without immediate hostility. We disagree on many issues, including how to reach revolution but we should continue to fight our own struggles while seeking to cooperate and show our support for others in their struggles.

Marx even said that the proletariat must support “every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things”. From an anarchist perspective as well this statement makes sense. The uprising of the most exploited and excluded of society and the most politically sensitized minority opens the way to the possible involvement of increasingly wider strata of exploited on a flux of rebellion which can lead to revolution. The working class, fighting alongside those whose struggles target racial oppression, gender oppression, sexuality based oppression, nationality based oppression, and for Earth and animal liberation will be an unstoppable movement of multiple associations that will crush capitalism and the reign of the bourgeois! All by having the revolutionary fight having been spread across the entire social terrain.

A reminder:

Communism would be anarchy.

Communism = Stateless, classless, moneyless, voluntary social order.

Being an anarchist just outlines our means to reach communism also including our aims for other forms of organization such as collectivism or mutualism or any egalitarian voluntary system of organization that does not rely on coercion or force and values the freedom of the individual. There are also anarchists without adjectives. If you (unfortunately haha) still believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat leave your fellow proletariat anarchists alone.

If you call yourself a communist just as means of obtaining power and to use the instruments of the state to dominate, oppress and exploit when the revolution comes we anarchists and communists/socialists who truly fight to reach an egalitarian society will kill you. If you really want to see communism including any other forms of voluntary organization and really are a communist you would leave the anarchists alone to reach communism our own way! If you are incapable of believing we can take care of counter-revolutionaries ourselves or falsely label us anarchists ‘counter-revolutionaries’ when the revolution comes we will readily put a bullet in your skull for being just as terrible as the capitalists if not worse for your treachery and lies and perversion of our ideas for freedom and equality. Just let your fellow leftist revolutionaries achieve communism or other free and equal societies their way themselves and there can finally be peace between us.

Let us not fight if a must until after the capitalist state has been destroyed! Solidarity until the last possible moment when our differences can no longer be ignored and if is absolutely necessary that we must fight each other.

Let us aim to demonstrate together as separate but associated groups whenever it is possible, let us drink together, talk of our dreams and our stories of oppression, and let us be friends and comrades over our shared passion for egalitarian communities and for a new world.



Enough leftist infighting which is doing nothing but aiding the capitalists and the bourgeois!

Solidarity fellow leftists!

[Threetune]

Are you content to put this into a leaflet, funded jointly with Leninists, and give Leninism a right of reply of equal length in that same leaflet.

Leninism would wellcome an ongoing polemic out in front of the working class. Why not approch the communists in your area to discuss it.

[Conscript]

A coalition of parties and orgs, maybe with some stringent standards, is a good idea and gets the best out of cooperation immediately: pooling resources. The only problem is finding the initiative.

[Threetune]

A coalition of parties and orgs, maybe with some stringent standards, is a good idea and gets the best out of cooperation immediately: pooling resources. The only problem is finding the initiative.


Just approach others in your area to produce a local revolutionary leaflet/paper/graffiti or radio station.
Argue with each other openly so everyone can see the issues and differences – educate yourselves, each other and the working class in a polemical struggle with each other.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Leftist unity is impossible. A Marxist-Leninist like me working with an anarchist toward a common goal? You gotta be shittin me. We would end up killing each other. Even on RevLeft, it feels like that at any given time we are all gonna crawl out of our computer screens and start shooting each other. It is simply every tendency for itself when it comes to winning over the hearts and minds of the proletariat and the oppressed peoples of the world. All I know is that capitalism is beating all of us.

[Conscript]

Just approach others in your area to produce a local revolutionary leaflet/paper/graffiti or radio station.
Argue with each other openly so everyone can see the issues and differences – educate yourselves, each other and the working class in a polemical struggle with each other.

I think would be best to do something like this all at once on a national scale, since parties and orgs are far from omnipresent. We would need to work together immediately to finish establishing a nation-wide network with cells that have proper funding to carry out various forms of leftist action.

[Art Vandelay]

Leftist unity is impossible. A Marxist-Leninist like me working with an anarchist toward a common goal? You gotta be shittin me. We would end up killing each other. Even on RevLeft, it feels like that at any given time we are all gonna crawl out of our computer screens and start shooting each other. It is simply every tendency for itself when it comes to winning over the hearts and minds of the proletariat and the oppressed peoples of the world. All I know is that capitalism is beating all of us.

While you would be unable to work with anarchists, I am sure that there are tendencies you could easily work with.

[hatzel]

Leftist unity is impossible. A Marxist-Leninist like me working with an anarchist toward a common goal? You gotta be shittin me.

So if you're at a protest or something do you ask everybody what their political beliefs are before you agree to stand next to them? :confused:

[Drosophila]

So if you're at a protest or something do you ask everybody what their political beliefs are before you agree to stand next to them? :confused:

I think he means actually sitting down and writing plans, theory, etc.

[hatzel]

I think he means actually sitting down and writing plans, theory, etc.

Practice trumps theory every time, though...

[Threetune]

[QUOTE=Comrade Commistar;2428891]Leftist unity is impossible. A Marxist-Leninist like me working with an anarchist toward a common goal? You gotta be shittin me. We would end up killing each other. Even on RevLeft, it feels like that at any given time we are all gonna crawl out of our computer screens and start shooting each other. It is simply every tendency for itself when it comes to winning over the hearts and minds of the proletariat and the oppressed peoples of the world. All I know is that capitalism is beating all of us.[/QUOTE

Have you been in jail with different tendencies? Or on a picket etc. Get ready comrade. The only principled revolutionary democratic way is to collaborate to ARGUE EVERYTHING OUT IN FRONT OF THE WORKING CLASS. If you aren’t up for that, you can only become an opportunist of another sort, a divisive sectarian.

[Threetune]

So if you're at a protest or something do you ask everybody what their political beliefs are before you agree to stand next to them? :confused:

No, you get into a conversation or an argument with them. Clarify you differences and arrange to continue the polemic so everyone can see and understand it. How else to educate?

[Drosophila]

Practice trumps theory every time, though...

Protest is one of the simplest forms of practice, and is typically where it all starts. I don't think (or I don't hope) that anyone would leave a protest because there's an anarchist there.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

All I am saying is that I would not join an organization with anarchists, nor will I consider an organization that includes all different leftist tendencies useful.

[Brosip Tito]

All I am saying is that I would not join an organization with anarchists, nor will I consider an organization that includes all different leftist tendencies useful.
We are best suited for the gulags!

[Threetune]

All I am saying is that I would not join an organization with anarchists, nor will I consider an organization that includes all different leftist tendencies useful.

No one has to 'join' anything!

There is no “getting in bed” with any tendency that you don’t agree with. The whole point is to call each other to account, including your own ‘party’, OUT IN THE OPEN IN FRONT OF THE WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES.

Anyone who can’t or won’t fight for their politics (understanding of the world) in a revolutionary democratic publication or meeting with others is not worth much to the class struggle for better theory. Time to call out the (your) ‘leaders’ perhaps.

[W1N5T0N]

Infighting is bad, i agree...

But i do find it difficult to have a productive discussion with somebody that only wants a revolution so he can tell me whats best in my own (class) interest.
And anyway, it not like there is too much of left infighting going on at the moment, most "socialists" tend to gather around a core they can agree on and go from there. What i see on this forum is a lot of radical theorists that will, in no way, have a viable popular support because their theories alienate everyone and they are not willing to compromise.

I mean, hell, anarchists could probably cooperate with most leftists that do not express their desire to create a totalitarian all-encompassing state, but rather devolve power to the people (which imo is something a lot can nod and agree on)
I think that if you have a good eye-to-eye discussion with people it usually clears away some of the tendencial bullshit and brings discussion to a point.

[Left Leanings]

A coalition of parties and orgs, maybe with some stringent standards, is a good idea and gets the best out of cooperation immediately: pooling resources. The only problem is finding the initiative.


Just approach others in your area to produce a local revolutionary leaflet/paper/graffiti or radio station.
Argue with each other openly so everyone can see the issues and differences – educate yourselves, each other and the working class in a polemical struggle with each other.


So if you're at a protest or something do you ask everybody what their political beliefs are before you agree to stand next to them? :confused:


Practice trumps theory every time, though...

I posted something addressing this very issue in the Leftist Unity thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/left-unity-t170034/index6.html

See post #119

[BE_]

I think it's impossible for leftist infighting to stop because of the variety of views in the left. I think it will be impossible for radical anti-authoritarians to stop fighting with radical authoritarians. I'm sorry but I don't think it will stop.

[Threetune]

I think he means actually sitting down and writing plans, theory, etc.


No don’t sit down unless you have to. Just CHALLENG the would-be revolutionaries in your area to collaborate in a propaganda publication against the biggest/ worst capitalist enemy you can attack.

This should not be an opportunist beauty contest or a careerist popularity harvest, but conscious struggle for better correct understanding about the lives and conditions of workers everywhere.

All workers and workers families and friends argue with each other about everything. Why do you think that they might be “put off” by different revolutionary collaborators arguing with each other?

[Threetune]

Practice trumps theory every time, though...

Good theory, always trumps bad practice because it is essential for good practice.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Are you content to put this into a leaflet, funded jointly with Leninists, and give Leninism a right of reply of equal length in that same leaflet.

Leninism would wellcome an ongoing polemic out in front of the working class. Why not approch the communists in your area to discuss it.

So you wouldn't kill off the anarchists this time, no?

[Threetune]

I think would be best to do something like this all at once on a national scale, since parties and orgs are far from omnipresent. We would need to work together immediately to finish establishing a nation-wide network with cells that have proper funding to carry out various forms of leftist action.

That’s enough of organisation. Now, what suggestions do any of you have for attacking the ruling class locally, nationally, internationally together with their middle class skivvies right now?

[Deicide]

I think the Left Communists, Anarchists, etc, etc. should utilize Stalinist terror against the Stalinists next revolution. The Stalinists should be put in gulag first, before they put everyone else in gulag.

[Art Vandelay]

I think the Left Communists, Anarchists, etc, etc. should utilize Stalinist terror against the Stalinists next revolution. The Stalinists should be put in gulag first, before they put everyone else in gulag.

Shhh! Now they know our plan! The cover of Roosterism is blown. :laugh:

[Left Leanings]

If I go to a gulag, do I get a single cell? Or am I being naive here?

[Ele'ill]

Good theory, always trumps bad practice because it is essential for good practice.

I think practice with good strategy is different than theory and I tend to gravitate more towards practice than towards theory because I learn better doing hands-on stuff.

[Ostrinski]

I don't think it's at all audacious to not feel compelled to "unite" with anyone who would throw me in a labor camp.

[Deicide]

If I go to a gulag, do I get a single cell? Or am I being naive here?

No cell. You'll be building railways or something useful till' you drop. At gun point. Escapes will be instantly shot.

Omsk will have a special place in our Post-Stalinist gulag. Comrade Commistar will be forced to make Comrade Rooster busts for the rest of his existence in gulag.

[Threetune]

I think practice with good strategy is different than theory and I tend to gravitate more towards practice than towards theory because I learn better doing hands-on stuff.

Well that’s your theory. Good Luck.

[Threetune]

So you wouldn't kill off the anarchists this time, no?

Only to kindly put you out of your obvious middle class misery, if you want.
Otherwise revolutionary Leninism and not capitalism appears to be your main target as the original post says:

“… we anarchists and communists/socialists who truly fight to reach an egalitarian society will kill you.” And:

“..we will readily put a bullet in your skull..”

Are you endorsing this fake ‘anarchist’ attitude towards Leninism in workers organisations.

[Left Leanings]

If I go to a gulag, do I get a single cell? Or am I being naive here?


No cell. You'll be building railways or something useful till' you drop. At gun point. Escapes will be instantly shot.

Omsk will have a special place in our Post-Stalinist gulag. Comrade Commistar will be forced to make Comrade Rooster busts for the rest of his existence in gulag.

But I'm inclined to laziness. And insubordination. Can't I just have a job making tea for peeps instead...

[MustCrushCapitalism]

This kind of seems to place all of the blame on communists/Leninists/'authoritarians'. Anarchists seem just as dogmatic from other perspective. I recognize that our aims are overall exactly the same, and I'd be happy if left unity was able to be achieved, but I don't think it completely will be.

Certain groups - Leninists, Trotskyists, other Marxists, could theoretically work together and it'd go fine, I think. So many Leninists seem to make the mistake of thinking that modern Trotskyists/"Anti-Stalinists" would care more about sabotaging Leninists than working with them. Knowing a few Trots, I think this is wrong.

The issue between most anarchists and most state socialists is the disagreement on the use of the state apparatus. Most anarchists claim that the state is inherently anti-socialist and that any form of state socialism is really state capitalism. On the other hand, state socialists believe that use of the state apparatus in reaching communism is a necessity. That's a major difference in opinion there that will probably never be reconciled, unfortunately.

[Threetune]

This kind of seems to place all of the blame on communists/Leninists/'authoritarians'. Anarchists seem just as dogmatic from other perspective. I recognize that our aims are overall exactly the same, and I'd be happy if left unity was able to be achieved, but I don't think it completely will be.

Certain groups - Leninists, Trotskyists, other Marxists, could theoretically work together and it'd go fine, I think. So many Leninists seem to make the mistake of thinking that modern Trotskyists/"Anti-Stalinists" would care more about sabotaging Leninists than working with them. Knowing a few Trots, I think this is wrong.

The issue between most anarchists and most state socialists is the disagreement on the use of the state apparatus. Most anarchists claim that the state is inherently anti-socialist and that any form of state socialism is really state capitalism. On the other hand, state socialists believe that use of the state apparatus in reaching communism is a necessity. That's a major difference in opinion there that will probably never be reconciled, unfortunately.

Now get with each other and produce some joint propaganda against the ruling class and AT THE SAME TIME CONTINUE THE ARGUMENT WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT YOUR DEFFERERENSES, ‘IN PUBLIC’ HOW BETTER FOR ALL WORKERS TO GRASP THE HISTORY AND THE CONTEMPORARY THEORY?

[Railyon]

The issue between most anarchists and most state socialists is the disagreement on the use of the state apparatus. Most anarchists claim that the state is inherently anti-socialist and that any form of state socialism is really state capitalism. On the other hand, state socialists believe that use of the state apparatus in reaching communism is a necessity. That's a major difference in opinion there that will probably never be reconciled, unfortunately.

Yes, I'd agree with that and would think it better to achieve tactical unity along those lines.

However the question of the state is where it gets fuzzy; some descriptions of a proletarian state would be okay with anarchists even, as they wouldn't see it as a state in their sense; there seems to be more behind the state question beyond its definition as an instrument of class rule. And that's where the line between Libertarian and Authoritarian is blurred, making it kinda useless...

[Hermes]

To be honest, in the early stages of practice, there isn't really any reason why all tendencies couldn't get along, to some extent, unless it was pacifists and those who favored aggression.

What starts happening is when people start imposing authority (in the case of Anarchism), or when people start deciding on how the transitional period will work, or how leadership will work.

At least from my view, if we could even just work together in the beginning, to arouse class consciousness, we could just let it go from there. The infighting would start fairly soon afterwards, though.

My opinion, though.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

No cell. You'll be building railways or something useful till' you drop. At gun point. Escapes will be instantly shot.

Omsk will have a special place in our Post-Stalinist gulag. Comrade Commistar will be forced to make Comrade Rooster busts for the rest of his existence in gulag.

Where shall Ismail and Bostana go, oh dear Roosterist leader. :p

[Deicide]

Where shall Ismail and Bostana go, oh dear Roosterist leader. :p

Ismail will be destined to burn the entire works of Hoxha for the rest of his shameful days in gulag.

[hatzel]

I tend to unite with pretty much anybody who happens to be fighting my cause at a given time. And I break the union when they are no longer fighting my cause. Simple as that. I don't really think there's anything more to 'it' than that...

[Ostrinski]

I tend to unite with pretty much anybody who happens to be fighting my cause at a given time. And I break the union when they are no longer fighting my cause. Simple as that. I don't really think there's anything more to 'it' than that...This is the most rational attitude to have and one we should all adopt. We get so caught up with the hypothetics when we don't even know a revolutionary situation will materialize or process. Best to just take things as they come and let ideology take a backseat.

[honest john's firing squad]

I think leftist infighting is just great

[Fawkes]

A united left is impossible. A united working class is possible, but the internal conflict emerges when deciding how best to organize a united working class.


If there was a revolution going on right now, you know, with guns and all that scary stuff, between me and that leninist over there, one of us is probably going to kill the other.

No offense, but the notion of a "united left" tends to come from people that are naive of history and/or inexperienced with organizing.

[Geiseric]

A united left is impossible. A united working class is possible, but the internal conflict emerges when deciding how best to organize a united working class.


If there was a revolution going on right now, you know, with guns and all that scary stuff, between me and that leninist over there, one of us is probably going to kill the other.

No offense, but the notion of a "united left" tends to come from people that are naive of history and/or inexperienced with organizing.

There aren't many differences between you and most "Leninists," other than how organized you want things to be. I wouldn't kill anybody unless my life or the lives of the people I cared about were in danger, and "people I care about," is a pretty wide range.

Anyways there's no point in uniting sects of leftist intellectuals, since they are seperate for legitimate reasons. Alot of them think "We are the Vanguard Party, so join us!" but they don't realize that they actually have no base of support among the wider working class.

I'm part of a group and one of the first things I enjoyed about it was that it recognizes that we're not actually a party, but that we're aggitating and organizing to build an actual revolutionary workers party.

[Rusty Shackleford]

ive worked with maoists trotst anarchsits left-coms and liberals before and i probably will in the future, but i dont see us all uniting in the same organization or something. though at least one uniting factor might be kicking the liberals out :lol:

[Os Cangaceiros]

If I go to a gulag, do I get a single cell? Or am I being naive here?

Yes, single cells are better for Dostoevskian torment.

[Ismail]

"Leftist unity," as others have said, is impossible. Genuine communists have no need to align with pseudo-leftists, reformists, and others who would either sabotage a proletarian revolution or deviate from the path of socialist construction.

Hoxha, quoting Stalin, noted in Imperialism and the Revolution that the Party is monolithic and is not, as Mao "theorized," an arena of competing classes and tendencies.

The only "unity" that can come emerges from objective circumstances and is not otherwise wanted, e.g. how the Bolsheviks early on had to coalition with Left Social-Revolutionaries.

[Fawkes]

There aren't many differences between you and most "Leninists," other than how organized you want things to be. I wouldn't kill anybody unless my life or the lives of the people I cared about were in danger, and "people I care about," is a pretty wide range.

Anyways there's no point in uniting sects of leftist intellectuals, since they are seperate for legitimate reasons. Alot of them think "We are the Vanguard Party, so join us!" but they don't realize that they actually have no base of support among the wider working class.

I'm part of a group and one of the first things I enjoyed about it was that it recognizes that we're not actually a party, but that we're aggitating and organizing to build an actual revolutionary workers party.

It's not "how organized things are" it's how they are organized.

Leninists see taking control of the state as completely necessary for revolutionary success. I see that as total and complete bullshit. Subsequently, we see each other as counterrevolutionaries. Revolutionaries and counterrevolutionaries usually kill each other.








Things I don't care about:

Hoxha

[Drosophila]

"Leftist unity," as others have said, is impossible. Genuine communists have no need to align with pseudo-leftists, reformists, and others who would either sabotage a proletarian revolution or deviate from the path of socialist construction.



Yeah, I don't think trying to work with reformists is useful in any way, as they are not even revolutionary.

[Aflameoffreedom]

The revleft will not unite in the sense we all join some army, but we can associate ourselves with other socialistic revolutionaries and show our support for everyone fighting for liberation from capitalism yet remain fighting our own struggles until the capitalists have been crushed, a multitude of struggles that try to cooperate and express solidarity with each other to achieve liberation form the giant one struggle for liberation. It is great that the right have so many enemies to count, the socialists, communists, anarchists, collectivists, dedicated antifascists, economic and political prisoners, indigenous peoples, the diversity of all proles, those that face oppression based on race, nationality, gender, sexuality, etc.
I did not suggest for the revleft to unite under one front but that

1) When we meet each other or cross paths let it not be with immediate hostility.

2) Let us not pretend that there is one concrete way to do the revolution or to reach our goals, more effective ways than others that we chose to practice but as we have every right to criticize others and to try to influence their opinions unless they are a pacifist or a reformist and a direct threat to reaching our goals encourage the people to liberate themselves their own way that they see fit. Just because they didn't join your party or organization does not mean they are not fighting for their liberation from capitalism. Self-organized struggles are by nature uncontrollable and unstoppable when they are spread across the social terrain, I myself a supporter of insurrectionary anarchism (http://aflameoffreedom.tumblr.com/post/21733479242) see when every community and every oppressed minority strikes back against the capitalist state and business there will no stopping us from reaching communism, mutualism, collectivism, or what have you because if one of our militias or organizations is crushed tons of other ones capable of revolution remain and the struggle always continues. An assassination of the leader(s) of a communist party could crush the revolutionary movement entirely but not if every oppressed prole becomes capable of liberating themselves can we truly be unstoppable because no matter how much of us are killed or imprisoned the fight continues!

and 3) Let us aim to not fight if a must until after the capitalist state or the current order has been destroyed.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

Are these endless discussions on left unity about mannerisms and ethics, or do people actually believe that a "united left" will threaten the bourgeois order?

[Threetune]

Are these endless discussions on left unity about mannerisms and ethics, or do people actually believe that a "united left" will threaten the bourgeois order?

What do you think?

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

little bit of both from what I see here.

[dodger]

Are these endless discussions on left unity about mannerisms and ethics, or do people actually believe that a "united left" will threaten the bourgeois order?

Oh! I think the bourgeois order will be scared shitless. Not half as much as the workers though.....

[Threetune]

Oh! I think the bourgeois order will be scared shitless. Not half as much as the workers though.....

What would you know? You boast that you "Never listen to anyone who is not gainfully employed in some job or profession"

That’s 2,7 million workers in Britain alone. You are now sounding like one of those “Ideological Peacocks who love the sound of their own voices”, but you have nothing but flasid old British nationalism to shriek about. Peacock indeed.

[Grenzer]

No unity with Bakuninists; which would include anarchists, left communists, and some Trotskyists and Stalinists. No unity with reformists, which would include some Trotskyists and most Stalinists.

No unity with chowderheads who think disunity for it's own sake is good, so pretty much all of the above, again.

[dodger]

Precisely I do not expect for one minute someone who is not working to have the same interests as me. I would not trust them with my hide. Hence my deaf ear to some tom foolery about General Strike or any other course of action I feel inept or misguided. I hold them in as much respect as they hold me. I should rapidly found myself amongst the 2.7. As it is now I am retired but gainfully employed with all my time my own. The 2.7 are considered part of the working class whatever you may think..

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

No unity with Bakuninists; which would include anarchists, left communists, and some Trotskyists and Stalinists. No unity with reformists, which would include some Trotskyists and most Stalinists.

No unity with chowderheads who think disunity for it's own sake is good, so pretty much all of the above, again.

Then what the fuck are you? An orthodox Marxist? :lol:

By the way, left communists, Bolshevik-Leninists, and Marxist-Leninists are in no way Bakuninists. Also, Bolshevik-Leninists and Marxist-Leninists are not reformists, so stop pulling things out your ass.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I'd march alongside anyone who recognises the contradictions in capitalism and seeks to put an end to the state and progress towards communism. Dunno about spending my time with them afterwards though.

[Tim Finnegan]

I prefer the left as it is. It's less likely to get in the way of the working class.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

No unity with chowderheads who think disunity for it's own sake is good, so pretty much all of the above, again.

Disunity has value in itself and should be regarded as an end in itself. It is what keeps the scene vital and vibrant.
As Lenin noted: Every disagreement can become big if stressed upon!
With big disagreements comes big change.
We don´t want the scene to become stagnant and pacified.