Quebec Seperatism

[ArseCynic]

I'm completely undecided on this.

Why should I support or not support Quebec seperatism?
Give me all you've got.

keep in mind I'm a Marxist, not a socialist.

[Zav]

You should support it because smaller nations are closer to the Federalist organization of Communism and come with the benefits of that, such as more direct representation, because they have fewer resources with which to oppress and make war, and because they are easier to have a revolution in. There really aren't any downsides. Even though the Quebec Separatist movement is largely center-left, I would rather see it have its way and be a liberal country than have the conservative parties maintain control. Yes, that may be 'lesser of two evils' thinking, but it's better than nothing and Revolution is not exactly Tuesday.

[ArseCynic]

alright, I see your points. My main issue is that if they seperate then that's just another border we would have to erase in the future.

[danyboy27]

In its current form, Quebec separatism is a divisive device used by the local caste of nationalist bourgeois for self-empowerement and working class opression.

It reduce everything to ''us'' the french speaking Quebeckers VS them, evil english speaking redcoat and it does nothing but to create further division within the working class of both side.

I am not against Quebec autonomy but in its current form it does nothing but engineer xenophobia and hatred toward the other working class folks, giving a free pass for the bourgeois and their politicians to trample on us.

IF quebec would become a country tomorow, we would still be screwed by the same assoles who where playing with us before, it wouldnt solve a damn thing.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

keep in mind I'm a Marxist, not a socialist.
Marxists are socialist...

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

National liberation movements are good.....when they are actually national liberation movements. It is a little hard to liberate your nation when it is not really being oppressed.

[Manic Impressive]

What difference does it make to our class if the bourgeois's passport says Quebec instead of Canada? What does that change? Nothing. Capitalism stays capitalism and workers stay exploited.

What difference does a Quebec nation state make? It's one more state which we have to destroy and it's one more thing to used to divide people into us and them.

No working class person should support national liberation struggles.

[RGacky3]

Marxists are socialist...

Most of them but not necessarily.

[CommieCoss]

Most separatist movements (as far as I know) focus too much on petty issues that distract working class people from the real issues. It's just another tool for politicians to gain support, and doesn't solve issues like poverty, unemployment, etc. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if your leaders/bosses speak French or English or whatever cuz you're still getting fucked

[Per Levy]

You should support it because smaller nations are closer to the Federalist organization of Communism and come with the benefits of that, such as more direct representation, because they have fewer resources with which to oppress and make war, and because they are easier to have a revolution in.

if there would be a worker uprising in a free quebec the quebec bourgeoisie would just invite canada or the usa to supress it if they cant handle it themselfs.


There really aren't any downsides.

how about even more devision of workers and there is plenty more as others have allready mentioned


Even though the Quebec Separatist movement is largely center-left, I would rather see it have its way and be a liberal country than have the conservative parties maintain control.

and what would change exactly? the bourgeoisie would still be in power, workers would still be exploited just this time more by the quebec bourgeosie then the canadian bourgeoisie.


Yes, that may be 'lesser of two evils' thinking, but it's better than nothing and Revolution is not exactly Tuesday.

with the same argument we all should throw our support to obama since he is the lesser of two evils, i mean the revolution wont com next week, right?

[Parvati]

Here is the chapter 7 of the programm of the revolutionary Communist party of Canada. It's may be a long text, but sometimes it's useful to go in depth in a subject. Anyway, I've got some other texts on the question if it's something that interest some of you around here!

7. Against national oppression! Against nationalism and chauvinism! Fight for absolute equality for all nations and languages!

We will never be as free and equal as we want but the day the running of society will be in the hands of the workers. By overthrowing the bourgeoisie and by establishing a new society, the revolutionary proletariat will abolish all forms of national discrimination and will wage fierce struggle against all types of racism and chauvinism that will linger within society.
To develop a revolutionary point of view in regard to the national question in Canada, we must distinguish truth from falsehood. It is of the utmost importance to unmask the bourgeois point of view on this question propagated by mainstream newspapers, television and in the parliaments. The bourgeoisie is lying to us. It is seeking to maintain its political domination on us in Québec and in Canada; and the national question is no exception.
There is more than one position on the Québec national question. There is also more than one set of interests to be defended. The Québec bourgeoisie defends its interests; the different parts of the Canadian bourgeoisie are also doing so. What we commonly hear about the Québec national question concerns these interests. This is what is at stake and explains the nature of the contention with this matter for more than 30 years.
The existence of a Québec bourgeoisie ruling its political and economical development with its own tools—which includes a “strong” state—clearly shows that as a nation, Québec is no longer subjected to any form of oppression that would prevent its own development and would then justify—as some people still want us to believe—a national liberation struggle including all the classes in this province in order to achieve political independence.
In the rest of Canada, chauvinism and nationalism pushed forward by the big Canadian bourgeoisie only served to create divisions within the Canadian proletariat and between us and the proletarians abroad. There is an absence of a proletarian watchword on the national question. Whether it is the trade-unions leaders of the CLC, the NDP or the Québec trade-unions, they all rely on a bourgeois point of view. This point of view means that in issues of national matters, the interests of the nation always supersede that of the proletariat.
As proletarians, we do not have to make a choice between small or big capitalists. Neither one will try to put an end to our exploitation. On the contrary, the capitalists, and different parts of the bourgeoisie among them, will use nationalism and chauvinism to their profit. They use us to make their own outlooks prevail. In one case or another, it is always for their own benefit and our cost.
Communists throughout Canada have as their main objective to detach the proletariat from any bourgeois “national programme.” We must put forth our own programme that speaks out clearly against all types of national division and oppression and strives for the unity of the proletariat throughout the country.

Canada, a prison for the First Nations

Canada, as the other states born of European colonialism in America, was built on violence, exploitation and oppression towards the First Nations. Before the arrival of the white man in Canada, more than a million Natives lived on these lands. The arrival of the French and the English, who brought war and disease, took its toll on the Native populations killing most of them. In some cases, 80%, 90% and even 95% of some Native communities perished. The Natives needed many centuries (up until now in fact) to rebuild their populations back to their original size. Nowadays, their situation is still very precarious. Their living conditions leave them with poverty and misery. Their life expectancy is eight years lower than that of the average Canadian. Twice as many children die, as compared to the rest of the Canadian population. Their youth are seven times more likely to commit suicide. In most regions, their level of unemployment is three, even four times higher than the Canadian average.

http://pcr-rcp.ca/jpg/programme/8.jpg
The living conditions on the reserves are harsh. The governments in Canada have clearly demonstrated that they are unable to solve this problem. The development of the Native struggles and their radicalization, as well as the constitutional stalemate and the dead end in negotiations around their territorial rights, have reached an explosive point.
Today in Canada, there are more and more Native struggles and Native movements putting forth their claims. This is a very important component of the current political situation. Despite the policies of assimilation and of genocide towards the Native people that have permitted Canada to become a powerful capitalist country, they have never ceased in waging struggle. Their fierce resistance, the struggle of the Mohawks in 1990, of the Ipperwash in Ontario, of Gustafsen Lake in British Columbia, the various constitutional crises in Canada, reminds us of this reality. In the last 12 years particularly, new forces have arisen amongst them and are becoming stronger and stronger. Because of those currents, their movements tend to be more radical and directed against the bourgeoisie and its state. We support and defend those currents. The revolutionary proletariat must forge an alliance with the First Nations and unite with them in a great movement of struggle against the Canadian imperialist bourgeoisie.

Today, the Québec state is an imperialist oppressor that we must fight!

To defend communist principles on the national issue means to analyze concretely the situation that exists today. Concerning the national question in Québec, we must reject commonplaces and clichés that the reformist Left and the opportunists propagate. To claim that Québec has played the part of an oppressed nation historically within Canada is one thing. To voluntarily blind oneself to its current reality and in the face of changes that have taken place after almost 40 years of domination—if not of hegemony—by the national movement in Québec: this is a big mistake, that has been made at the cost of the proletariat. Let’s conclude about that evolution:



Québec is not under colonial or semi-colonial rule, nor under the domination of an imperialist country. All political rights given within any bourgeois democracy are fully granted to Québec. In the last 20 years this province was able to hold three referendums on the constitutional issue. Quebecers were able to express themselves as freely as possible under bourgeois democracy (which is obviously relative), in order to exercise their right to self-determination.
The Québec national movement of the last 30 to 40 years that has rallied around the sovereignist and separatist outlook has for the most part harboured ideas contrary to the interests of the proletariat. This question not only acted as a brake in developing the struggle of the proletariat, but it also served to build a strong state in the service of the bourgeoisie.
The Québec state and its bourgeoisie are integrated in the worldwide imperialist system. It is not on the side of the dominated countries, but on the side of the dominating countries. The Québec state, its “national” institutions, its financial network, its big ideological apparatus, the capitalists in the middle-size firms, shares the attributes, the characteristics and the aspirations of imperialism. This is clearly demonstrated in its relationship with the First Nations. From a status of oppressed nation, Québec is now an oppressor nation.

For 30 years, the Québec bourgeoisie has completely dominated all talks about Québec’s national question. Their propaganda also succeeded in reaching the very heart of the workers movement. For the proletariat, this resulted in a disaster. After 40 years of squabbles subtly entertained between various fractions of the bourgeoisie, the trade union and grass roots movements in Québec have been won over to a “consensus” created by the bourgeoisie in the province, which is embodied by the P.Q. Taking full advantage of this “consensus,” it succeeds in attacking a disarmed proletariat. Enough is enough! We must rid ourselves of the yoke of nationalism. The proletariat throughout this country, of any nationality, must take the tools that will help us to unite!

A programme to unify the proletariat in Canada

In Canada, aside from the Québec and Canadian nations, there are about 50 Native Nations. The growing assertiveness and developing struggles of the First Nations and Métis are troublesome for the federal government. There are more than one million Natives in Canada. In the Maritimes, there are more than 300,000 Acadians, mainly to be found in New Brunswick. They also comprise important minority groups in Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. In Ontario, there are nearly 500,000 Franco-Ontarians. In Western Canada, there are also many French minority groups. There are more than 160,000 of them. In certain cases they are practically devoid of all rights. They are sometimes left unprotected by the law in this regard, being deprived of access to education in the language of their choice. These issues of different nationalities have lingered since the foundation of Canada. They result from the process of conquest and the development of capitalism in North America. The conditions of these different nations are closely linked to the reality of capitalism in Canada. Capitalism in Canada has grown out of the oppression of the First Nations, of the Québec nation, of the French living outside of Québec and of other national minorities. The only way to heal once and for all the historic wounds that French Québec has sustained is by waging the general struggle for absolute equality of all languages and nations. This includes also the rights of the French people outside of Québec. A struggle on any other basis only plays into the hands of bourgeois nationalism and consequently loses its democratic character.

• For the absolute equality of all languages and nations!

We have to fight for the equality of all languages and nations. We shall oppose ourselves to any forms of privilege and national exclusivism, such as unilinguism. The struggles targeting the bourgeoisie and its state apparatus, in order to fight national oppression and for equality, are part and parcel of a general resisting movement against capitalism. This reinforces the revolutionary camp. Otherwise, nationalism and chauvinism reinforce class collaboration, weakens the proletariat and turns us away from revolution. This reinforces the bourgeoisie, both in Québec and in Canada.
By struggling for the equality of all languages and nations, we are not only fighting for the rights of the workers in Québec, but also of those throughout Canada so they can live, work and be educated in their language. Capitalist society cannot satisfy these demands. To satisfy them would mean a greater investment in time and in money for the ruling class. The issue at hand is indeed complex, but a lot can be expected if we are able to move from a profit making to a classless society, in which production is aimed at satisfying everyone’s needs!

• Struggle against national oppression and for the right to self-determination for oppressed nations!

We uphold the right of self-determination for the oppressed nations. This means their political right to separate. This right is denied to the First Nations. They have never been able to exercise it. Their aspirations for emancipation have always been suppressed with violence by the bourgeois state apparatus, in Québec as in Canada. Wherever the Natives are oppressed, we must fight with them; we must seek to weaken the bourgeoisie who oppresses them!
• The Québec sovereignist movement: a 100% bourgeois project!

The Québec nationalist movement is a ploy to create a fallacious unity between the ruling class and the proletariat. It serves the purpose of reinforcing class collaboration and for maintaining social peace. After more than 30 years of national struggle in Québec, the support of the organized workers’ movement to the sovereignist project has only served the interests of the upper class. The exploitation of the proletariat has in no way been solved. The reason is because this exploitation is no longer based on national oppression, but stems from the nature of capitalism itself. Nothing, absolutely nothing in the sovereignist project of Québec will lead to the emancipation of the working class. The upper class and the workers movement blinded by nationalism will not admit this. However, we, of the working class, herald this truth loud and clear!

http://pcr-rcp.ca/jpg/programme/9.jpg

• To win over nationalism and chauvinism,
we must vanquish capitalism!

Currently, even if certain realities of national oppression still exist, it is because the bourgeoisie and its various components have always been against thoroughly democratic and fair solutions. It is by struggling against the bourgeoisie that the working class will be able to lead an uncompromising struggle against national oppression wherever it may occur. The proletariat has no interest in perpetrating or entertaining any form of national oppression. For this reality only serves the interest of the ruling class. It derives super profits from this state of affairs and maintains its domination on the workers through the divisions it creates. Also we must be against any form of privilege one nation may have over another—whether it takes the form of unilinguism, in Québec or in any other province. The Canadian proletariat must lead an uncompromising struggle against nationalism and chauvinism. They divide the working class throughout the country. Our struggle must take on the form of a struggle for the consolidation of the unity of our class and all of the most exploited classes on a “national” basis which encompasses Natives, but also other minorities stemming from immigration, and refugees.

• Against division, we must unite!

Generally speaking, our claims and slogans, in regard to all our struggles, to every political question should be formulated in the following way: What divides us? What unites us? The proletarian immigrants, the refugees share the same interests we do over the question of exploitation. We must wage struggle with them throughout Canada in order to free ourselves from the chains of division, of racism. We must unite with them to build a revolutionary force. In Québec, also we must break away from class collaboration and compromises that nationalism leads us into.

[Brosip Tito]

Quebec separatism will do nothing to advance the working class of Quebec, and will, in fact, divide the Quebecois and Anglo workers.

Fuck nationalism.

[Grenzer]

Québécois nationalism is completely pointless and is no way a device for working class empowerment. Nationalism is, and always will be a tool of the bourgeoisie and fostering it only divides the working class further.

There might be certain situations where "national liberation" could be progressive, but this certainly isn't one of them. It's just arbitrary nationalism.

[Art Vandelay]

Coming from someone who lives in Canada, if there is a oppressed group of peoples in Canada its aboriginals. The amount of blatant and open racism in this country is disgusting.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Coming from someone who lives in Canada, if there is a oppressed group of peoples in Canada its aboriginals. The amount of blatant and open racism in this country is disgusting.

I would support that national liberation movement. Even with Quebec, if they begin to become really oppressed and the movement gets some Marxist-Leninist influence, I would also support it. It'll tear a big hole right into the edifice of Canadian capital.

[Zav]

alright, I see your points. My main issue is that if they seperate then that's just another border we would have to erase in the future.
Borders are imaginary so their number isn't really relevant, and it's easier to get all the people under the jurisdiction of a smaller state to rebel than all the people in a bigger country. Now suppose the 26 or so countries in North America united. It would be far easier for Quebec to fight Canada's army than it would be to fight the army of the entire North American Union.

[Zav]

if there would be a worker uprising in a free quebec the quebec bourgeoisie would just invite canada or the usa to supress it if they cant handle it themselfs.
There will be military action even if the whole world rebelled. What's your point?



how about even more devision of workers and there is plenty more as others have allready mentioned
Yes, it creates a division. That would be 'here are the exploited workers and here are the liberated workers'. A liberated group of workers is much more inspiring to the working class than people on their soapboxes trying to get everyone in the world to follow them without being able to see what they're supporting.



and what would change exactly? the bourgeoisie would still be in power, workers would still be exploited just this time more by the quebec bourgeosie then the canadian bourgeoisie.
Smaller nations have generally smaller governments, and are easier to overthrow. Bourgeoisie are bourgeoisie, but liberals are somewhat better than conservatives.



with the same argument we all should throw our support to obama since he is the lesser of two evils, i mean the revolution wont com next week, right?
That's not what I said at all. I said that we should do what we can with what we have. Voting and direct action are the only choices available, but they aren't mutually exclusive. While we're protesting and playing Robin Hood, we could spare a few minutes to give some support to the Green Party or the CPUSA. Voting for them doesn't make you less of a revolutionary, and the more they get, the more gravity they will have to counter the weight of the Capitalists.

[roy]

There will be military action even if the whole world rebelled. What's your point?

I think the point is that not only is Quebecois separatism pointless, it's also futile.


Yes, it creates a division. That would be 'here are the exploited workers and here are the liberated workers'. A liberated group of workers is much more inspiring to the working class than people on their soapboxes trying to get everyone in the world to follow them without being able to see what they're supporting.

How would the workers of Quebec be liberated if they were still living in a capitalist state?


Smaller nations have generally smaller governments, and are easier to overthrow. Bourgeoisie are bourgeoisie, but liberals are somewhat better than conservatives.

We don't want to overthrow capitalist governments and install news ones, though. We want a global proletarian revolution.




That's not what I said at all. I said that we should do what we can with what we have. Voting and direct action are the only choices available, but they aren't mutually exclusive. While we're protesting and playing Robin Hood, we could spare a few minutes to give some support to the Green Party or the CPUSA. Voting for them doesn't make you less of a revolutionary, and the more they get, the more gravity they will have to counter the weight of the Capitalists.

Why would you, an anarchist, vote for the Green Party or the CPUSA? Surely you understand that communism can't be voted in and that these are just bourgeois parties. Voting is a farce that perpetuates bourgeois democracy. We don't need to have more to counter the capitalists: we're the proletariat. Capitalism's gonna collapse anyway.

[Zav]

I think the point is that not only is Quebecois separatism pointless, it's also futile.
It isn't pointless if it shows the working class that they are more powerful than their governments.



How would the workers of Quebec be liberated if they were still living in a capitalist state?
They would be more likely to start a revolution.



We don't want to overthrow capitalist governments and install news ones, though. We want a global proletarian revolution.
Indeed we want global Communism, but we should make use of the present voting system if it will help even a little to make our lives better.





Why would you, an anarchist, vote for the Green Party or the CPUSA? Surely you understand that communism can't be voted in and that these are just bourgeois parties. Voting is a farce that perpetuates bourgeois democracy. We don't need to have more to counter the capitalists: we're the proletariat. Capitalism's gonna collapse anyway.
I vote, knowing that it is a farce, because it makes just the tiniest difference. It costs me nothing. Communism can't be voted in with the present electoral systems, but it essentially will be when people decide to change the world. You're quite right; we don't need more Leftist politicians, however it helps the working class a little to have them. Capitalism is unstable and will collapse of its own accord, likely within two hundred years, but I doubt it will get to that point before massive uprising of some kind due to resource depletion and the many effects of climate change. If we vote, we might be able to delay the Right's destruction of the planet a little bit and buy some time. I am NOT saying that voting will solve everything. We need to take action.

[roy]

basically, i disagree

edit: i agree that reforms can improve conditions for the working class, but i think quebecois separatism is a waste of time.

[black magick hustla]

quebec is not an opressed nation lol. it sucks in more federal taxes than it gives out to other provinces anyway. there is really no imperialist relation and in my experience quebecois nationalists whining about how oppressed they are are just pissed off that they have to watch the ocassional tv show in english or learn english at schools srsly fuck the quebecois nationalists

[Art Vandelay]

I would support that national liberation movement. Even with Quebec, if they begin to become really oppressed and the movement gets some Marxist-Leninist influence, I would also support it. It'll tear a big hole right into the edifice of Canadian capital.

Truthfully though, Quebec has no chance of becoming a legitimately oppressed nation. They are by no means second class citizens and their "progressive separatist movement" is made up of nationalistic and patriotic bourgie bastards.