Do schools kill creativity?

[Delenda Carthago]

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[gorillafuck]

speaking from personal experience, it killed my will. every year of high school I became more and more unmotivated and apathetic. when I first entered high school I was actually one of those kids who enjoyed learning, an attitude which was basically squeezed out of me.

[NorwegianCommunist]

Schools kill the creativity one is capable of.

[BE_]

I think they do kill creativity. I read somewhere that 90% of first graders said they were creative, but by the time they were in fifth grade, only 50% of them said they were still creative. Finally, by the time they were graduating high school only 5% said they were still creative.

EDIT: by the way that's from my head I don't remember the actual numbers.

[marl]

I stopped caring 7th grade, the same year honors classes were introduced. I don't think its a coincidence.

Once you exit elementary school, it becomes extremely individualistic and competitive and it sucks the will to learn right out of you. Cooperation is looked down upon, and the subjects taught have little relevance to most students.

[Blanquist]

I didn't watch the video but yes I agree.

So many terrible teachers who slack off. They really don't have the requirements as a factory worker.

I did have a couple teachers that were great and really feed my hunger for knowledge.

[marl]

Yeah. Most teachers in my town have very little experience. The teachers I learned from in a working class town (compared to the petite bourgie one I am in now) during summer school were much better. I learned more in 4 weeks than I did in a year!

[Ostrinski]

It's the social environment of schools in their present state in junction with being alienated from academic work that really burns you out and kills your creative capabilities.

[Rafiq]

Does being creative benefit the Bourgeios class? Nope. Learn to accept things without using critical thought, is something essential to our schools.

It isn't a very important topic, though.

[ForgedConscience]

Absolutely, it is designed to eliminate any capacity for critical thought, it only trains the memory so that we can be productive white collar workers. It is uninspiring and irrelevant. It is all too familiar, I have experienced this as well, to loose all motivation to be productive. This apathy seems to affect more intelligent people too, after all, the bourgeoisie would much rather have a worker drone than a fully flourished rational being (this sounds quite elitist but I am only going on what I have observed.)

Frankly, the only class that has ever really inspired me is philosophy, and even then if it weren't for my teacher who is particularly brilliant, this too would have been dumbed down due to the syllabus.

I think it no coincidence too that every school I've attended has looked close to a prison.

[ArseCynic]

I'm in higschool and right now. YES. yes it does.

They discourgage all action which is not purely out of self interest to compete to sell your labour-power at a later date.

[#FF0000]

Depends on the school.


Cooperation is looked down upon

Er, when I was studying to be a teacher, I remember professors really singing the praises of group work. "Students learn best from each other".


and the subjects taught have little relevance to most students

Complain about school draining creativity and then complain that subjects taught "aren't relevant" to students in the same breath?

[gorillafuck]

They discourgage all action which is not purely out of self interest to compete to sell your labour-power at a later date.eh, that might be based on where you live I guess.

I go to a really rich liberal high school that has this promotion of liberal ethics and encourages people to be involved citizens, etc.

and cooperation isn't looked down upon at all in school. it's often promoted.

[gorillafuck]

as if I fucking care about being an involved citizen:lol:

[#FF0000]

Does being creative benefit the Bourgeios class?

Yes.

Some of y'all are looking at this in a hella black-and-white manner.

[ArseCynic]

eh, that might be based on where you live I guess.

I go to a really rich liberal high school that has this promotion of liberal ethics and encourages people to be involved citizens, etc.

and cooperation isn't looked down upon at all in school.

Oh I see. I go to a apathetic public school where I am always on the verge of getting in trouble for being slightly active and involved in things which have purpose other than to put things on your resume. I have to keep a copy of the charter of rights and freedoms in my wallet everyday.

[gorillafuck]

Oh I see. I go to a apathetic public school where I am always on the verge of getting in trouble for being slightly active and involved in things which have purpose other than to put things on your resume. I have to keep a copy of the charter of rights and freedoms in my wallet everyday.yeah I go to public school too. nobody gets in trouble for that stuff though, once again I go to a wealthy, liberal school that teaches community ethics environmentalism etc.

[ArseCynic]

Ah I see. Mine isn't nessasarily rightwing, but it is definately supportive of the current systems, and most of the people here are either extremely moderate in their somewhat progressive views, or are completely apathetic to the point of non-concsiousness.

there are a few actually progressive teachers, but no progressive students or administration whatso ever.

[marl]

Depends on the school.



Er, when I was studying to be a teacher, I remember professors really singing the praises of group work. "Students learn best from each other".



Complain about school draining creativity and then complain that subjects taught "aren't relevant" to students in the same breath?

Well, that was based off my school. And I don't understand what you're implying - students aren't allowed to be as creative as possible and instead taught things that they simply do not wish to learn (and will hold little meaning later on).

I'd talk about the shit I don't need to know but I'd probably look like an idiot in the process.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

School alienates me from my mental labor......so I just decided not to do my homework today.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Yeah, it does. I have to say that as soon as I dropped out of school I felt like I had been healed and was able to create again.Wonderful feeling.

[Rafiq]

Yes.

Some of y'all are looking at this in a hella black-and-white manner.


That's why Private schools exist.

[Ocean Seal]

It was pretty boring for me, but I really liked physics and neuroscience so that really became my saving grace, and I was able to express myself outside of the classroom where the ass kisses dominated. But yeah, you can find a way around it if you look hard enough.

[black magick hustla]

Er, when I was studying to be a teacher, I remember professors really singing the praises of group work. "Students learn best from each other".



i think there is a world of difference to the "progressive" nature of much pedagogy taught in colleges vz the reality of institutions, curriculum, etc. that really puts a strain on how things should be taught and at what speed. this is especially true in working class and poor high schools where everything is so standarized. rich schools generally have more malleability. my dad was a teacher and if y'all wanna learn a bit about how shitty highschools run you should check out the fourth season of the wire srsly

[Jimmie Higgins]

Can someone summarize the argument in the video... I couldn't watch past "...a group of remarkable people..." because I began vomiting.:lol:

I think, for most of the population, capitalism kills creativity - both in the average worker who is discouraged from developing artistic outlets, critical or imaginative thinking, etc as well as from the small groups of people who are able to do "creative" labor - either professionals, artisans, or some workers doing so on the side. For this second group, creativity is confined into the forms developed through capitalist relations and so they get to be creative only conditionally.

As for (public) schools under capitalism, well they are there to help condition workers and professionals for life in capitalism: therefore creativity in the abstract is discouraged because it isn't a priority and can be a hindrance to a "productive workforce".

So in that sense, schools under capitalism do help kill creativity as well as learning itself in the abstract. But contrary to arguments by liberals and conservatives, the fundamental problem in not how education is organized, but how our society is organized (not that reforms - such as desegregation or better services and facilities for working class kids - are inherently useless, they just can't solve the bigger issues).

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Yes, they do. That's one reason I dropped out of school as a teenager.

[Magón]

Even in a school like UCSC (University of California, Santa Cruz,) the creativity people have is dismal. When they're outside of school, then they come up with some creative things. But for the most part, yes, schools do kill creativity no matter what grade/level you're on.

[Franz Fanonipants]

schools are not your enemy, pedagogy can be radical and empowering

capitalism is the problem

e: and i'm plenty creative even after attending a public school system that was manufactured to create a school to prison pipeline i wonder why

[Franz Fanonipants]

if y'all wanna learn a bit about how shitty highschools run you should check out the fourth season of the wire srsly

:lol:

e: yeah i'll be trusting some bay area fuckhead and david simon to tell me about how shitty high schools are tx comrade for this important and incisive commentary

e of e: anyone who attended public school in california needs to shut the fuck up

[Franz Fanonipants]

itt - teenagers finally have it out with the major oppressive force in their small worlds

[Hermes]

itt - teenagers finally have it out with the major oppressive force in their small worlds

Or, you know, it could be that schools in a capitalist society are mainly geared towards preparing the students to become a part of the workforce, instead of learning for the love of learning.

As to the cooperation that happens in high schools - to an extent. However, grades are still competitive, you're tested by yourself, and those who get higher grades are honored above others. Privilege and isolation don't really help facilitate the highest degree of cooperation that is possible.

And of course students will be talking about school. It is the topic that is most relevant to them, as well as the one that is most important. Just because it's designed for younger people, doesn't mean that it is therefore less important.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Look guys I had plenty of traumatic shit go down during my schooling. The thing is that drive me toward wanting to figure out how to resist.

That said, I'm older than a lot of you, I never had to deal with nclb and the great regulization of curriculum or whatever.

[ArseCynic]

School alienates me from my mental labor......so I just decided not to do my homework today.

I need to use this^

[Robespierres Neck]

It's the social environment of schools in their present state in junction with being alienated from academic work that really burns you out and kills your creative capabilities.

Well put.

[Psy]

Yes schools crush creativity and this is due to the bourgeois stat, how can a bourgeois bureaucracy treat students anything else but a commodity? Schools jobs is to transform the youth into proletariat (or in the case high end school bourgeoisie) and to the educator the individual student is a irreverent as individual worker is to a employer.

This is why students of Paris May 1968 also rebelled against the educational system as they saw the educational bureaucracy was oppressing them and only treating them as a commodity to be exploited in the future.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

Yes. School becomes so boring and meaningless to people, and they become caught up in stupid shit like getting wasted every weekend and they lose creativity. Or at least that's what it's like at my school.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Obligatory links now that Strasbourg has been mentioned:
http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SI/en/display/4
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/



It isn't a very important topic, though.
I couldn't disagree more. We have capitalism because workers are ignorant and stupid. People aren't born stupid.

I'll list ways I'd reform school because I'm bored and drunk:
-Fund it at a federal level so children don't inherit social immobility. All school is free for all people, assuming they have the pre-reqs.
-Before college: five hour days, five days a week, every other year off. Possibly make high school more like college, where you just pick a few classes and don't stay between them.
-All math past algebra is optional, but basic bio and chem still required
-All gym, english, and art classes optional
-The only standardized test required is on history and civics. Your only responsibility to the state is to know how to vote, testing should reflect this.
-Twice as much time spent in history classes, mandatory minimum curriculum focused on the last two hundred years.
-Obviously, schools/teachers should not be able to force students to stay or punish students. Etc.
-Encouragement and recognition of autodidacticism. Many college lectures could be replaced with something like the kahn academy. The role of profs in those classes would be closer to a tutor or TA that helps students with challenging problems when they get stuck, etc.

Most importantly, get rid of all the arbitrary rules. Gum, hats, cursing, not wearing a shirt, all fine. It's the submission to arbitrary power that really fucks people up.

[Firebrand]

I think that the single biggest problem with schools as they are now is class size. One teacher cannot teach a mixed ability set of 32 students to achieve their full potential. It just isn't possible. No matter how good and dedicated the teacher is (and a lot of them are really very dedicated) what generally happens is that the class is taught to the level of the average student. The students that struggle are left to fall by the wayside and the students who are good at the work become bored and disillusioned with the slow pace of the class. It is impossible to tailor the teaching to each individual student so there is no way to connect with the students as individuals. In addition it is very hard to keep the attention of so many students, especially since they often don't want to be there, and the ambient noise level alone can make some teachers struggle.

Another problem is the teaching to the test that is rife in england at least. When you spend half your time doing practice exam questions yu knnow that school isn't there to encourage creativity and learning, it is there to get you a piece of paper that proves you are a good little worker. The exams don't even test what you know really, they test whether you know how they want the questions answered, you have to know definitions word for word or no marks. I think it's soul destroying.

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

School does more than that unfortunatley, school is also quite the place for indoctrination. I've met too many anit-communist teenager who have no idea what they are talking about...ever.

[Loony]

School does more than that unfortunatley, school is also quite the place for indoctrination. I've met too many anit-communist teenager who have no idea what they are talking about...ever.

Most teenagers don't know what they are talking about most of the time. But its a temporary disorder as they grow out of it soon enough.

I feel that due to classes being big that kids are not getting enough individual attention. Everyone is unique and has certain talents. These should be developed and encouraged instead of being beaten down. Schools want to make kids fit into the system and try to groom them accordingly. The last thing schools try to do is to encourage individual thought.

There are of course schools which do promote this but they are few and far between. And you have to pay for this service too. I don't know how things are in the US, but you are going to pay through your teeth if you want your kids to have a decent education.

If you don't have the money and the kid goes to a normal school all they do is enter into the sausage factory which churns out drones every year. But I think that this can be said for every system.

[Invader Zim]

School kills creativity? Compared to working manual labour for minimum wage where you have no prospect of advancement, promotion or doing anything even vaguely interesting?

Sure you think school is shit now, but wait until you're waiting in line for the dole or shovelling manure nine hours a day, with your boss breathing down you kneck looking to dock your pay by a quarter of an hour if he catches you taking too long having a smoke even a second over your allotted time.

Or try working in retail. I was once told that I was not an individual but a commodity. You think school kills creativity? Try getting a fucking job. A little while doing that and I was back in education as soon as possible.

[OHumanista]

Yeah, it does. I have to say that as soon as I dropped out of school I felt like I had been healed and was able to create again.Wonderful feeling.

I know that feeling perfectly well. My whole life took an awesome turn for better after I finished highschool. I felt like a zombie.

[Zealot]

Not really, although I do think students should have a certain degree of sway over how and what they get taught. It can kill critical thinking though.

[KrimsonV]

In my opinion it doesn't actively kill creativity, but it doesn't encourage it at all either. Students have to pick up hobbies on their own during their free time, if homework allows and if they care, and many just don't bother with it.

"Their loss", I guess, but it's easy not to see the importance of keeping an active, creative mind when you're very young. This system definitely needs improvement.

[gozai]

School kills creativity? Compared to working manual labour for minimum wage where you have no prospect of advancement, promotion or doing anything even vaguely interesting?

Sure you think school is shit now, but wait until you're waiting in line for the dole or shovelling manure nine hours a day, with your boss breathing down you kneck looking to dock your pay by a quarter of an hour if he catches you taking too long having a smoke even a second over your allotted time.

Or try working in retail. I was once told that I was not an individual but a commodity. You think school kills creativity? Try getting a fucking job. A little while doing that and I was back in education as soon as possible.
Are you seriously saying we should be gratefull for the education the capitalist state provides? Fuck no.

[Psy]

In my opinion it doesn't actively kill creativity, but it doesn't encourage it at all either. Students have to pick up hobbies on their own during their free time, if homework allows and if they care, and many just don't bother with it.

"Their loss", I guess, but it's easy not to see the importance of keeping an active, creative mind when you're very young. This system definitely needs improvement.

Take a look at the mega projects in Minecraft like very rudimentary computers, which flies in the face of bourgeois educational in that with the mega projects in Minecraft you have learning through experimentation which contradicts the justification of educational bureaucracies as if you don't need masters within the learning process then logically students can learn in peer to peer classes.

[Invader Zim]

Are you seriously saying we should be gratefull for the education the capitalist state provides? Fuck no.


That isn't what I said. Or even anything remotely approaching what I said. My point was that the alleged hardships of the current education system withinin capitalist states, specifically in the context of the charge that it kills creativity, are nothing when compared to the majority of actual work in capitalist society. Thus, apparently in your case it really would be an egregious misallocation of gratitude to thank the state for your education given the apparent difficulty you have reading.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

whitest kids you know got it about right

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