Slavoj Zizek debates David Horowitz on new Assange Show

[KurtFF8]

http://assange.rt.com/horowitz-zizek-episode-two/

I have a feeling this will be of interest to many folks here

Here's a little preview writeup RT did prior to the airing today

http://rt.com/news/assange-world-tomorrow-zizek-horowitz-796/

Ready for another surprise from Assange? The second episode of The World Tomorrow has it all. This time Assange has two guests with two opposite points of view ready to lock in a fight over some of the hottest issues. *In one corner of the ring is Slavoj Zizek, a Slovenian sociologist, philosopher and former anti-communist dissident, who turned communist.
In the other corner stands David Horowitz, a radical right-wing Zionist, who back in the day was a left-wing radical and was involved in fundraising for the Black Panther Party.
The referee, Julian Assange, admitted he had some difficulty bringing the conversation back on track as the guest kept on coming back to the Jewish question.
Despite the heated, the great minds managed to discuss a range of topics, such as the Palestinians and Nazis, the Black Panthers and the Israelis, and the ongoing US presidential race.

Part of the conversation is dedicated to the creation of the “social welfare state” in Europe after WWII and its sudden death.
Stay tuned and watch the new episode of Assange’s “The World Tomorrow” (http://assange.rt.com/) exclusively on RT, Tuesday, 11:30 GMT

[Fennec]

PM0I5k50XsY

[Mr. Natural]

KurtFF8, Thanks for the video, although I didn't risk watching it. I hate David Horowitz beyond expression, and I can't sit through a session of his shit without suffering violent but impotent fantasies. Apparently, Zizek had something of a similar reaction. Go, Slavoj, Go!

[Drosophila]

Horowitz is a piece of shit.

[The Jay]

I was looking forward to this ever since I saw the preview online.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I bet Zizek had a lot of fun doing this.

[The Jay]

I'm six minutes in and want Horowitz to be forced to say this in the middle of a crowd of native Palestinians.

[Deicide]

Who wishes they sounded like Zizek when speaking English?

I do.. :blushing:

[Lucretia]

Does David Horowitz ever shut the fuck up and let other people talk? There are people who have pretty repugnant views but at least know how to behave themselves. Horowitz just comes across as a petulant brat who can't stand listening to opposing points of view. The authoritarian streak that drove him into the throes of the faux-left in the '60s, then into the neo-conservative movement of the 80s and 90s, is still very much evident.

[Krano]

This zionist is insane, the worldwide problems we currently face are because the United States isn't a superpower anymore? get the fuck out of here with that imperialist bullshit. Also Obama is responsible for more civilian deaths? i don't think Obama was in office when the Iraq and Afghanistan wars started where millions died.

[Rafiq]

Zizek greatly dissapointed me. In modern times, he is experiencing a degeneracy.

He is a weak debater. He always gives the enemy the upper hand.

[the zizekian]

It is not hard to see that, compared to an unsophisticated guy like Horowitz, Zizek has all the qualities: intelligence, temper, humour, high voice,... even politeness.

[Blanquist]

Good show, high definition and light-hearted.

Still don;t know why hes doing it with RussiaToday, maybe they are paying him a lot? Russian government offering Assange legal assistence?

[the zizekian]

Good show, high definition and light-hearted.

Still don;t know why hes doing it with RussiaToday, maybe they are paying him a lot? Russian government offering Assange legal assistence?

Once a country has experienced communism, it is changed for good forever.

[NewLeft]

I find the Stalinist jokes to be humourless.. Zizek was clearly trying to make peace with Horowitz..

[the zizekian]

I find the Stalinist jokes to be humourless.. Zizek was clearly trying to make peace with Horowitz..

Zizek makes peace with right-wingers only when they are warned that the gulag is waiting for them.

[Mettalian]

I think this is a good example of how loud debates aren't always interesting debates. It felt kind of lukewarm; even though there was obviously quite a bit of energy, there didn't seem to be actually a lot being said. Still, it was worth it for Zizek's voice.

[SHORAS]

He is one mental bastard. Obama in the Communist Left :cool:

"Europe is insignificant" another gem.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

assange is such a shitbag oh my god
i wasnt posting here at the time, but i have been saying this since the start
now it's overwhelmingly evident

[NewLeft]

I took away nothing from that debate, Zizek just let Horowitz set the discussion.

[Os Cangaceiros]

"The United States and Israel are under attack from the international left, which is very powerful..."

God if only that were actually true!

I only watched about half of it, as my connection speed isn't great, but another highlight was Zizek's mention of the fact that he had some of Stalin's poetry. I can just imagine him enjoying a nice candlelight dinner with someone, then saying "hey, you want to hear some poetry?" :lol:

[Ostrinski]

Man, David has no sense of humor whatsoever.

[Rafiq]

I suppose my dissatisfaction comes from Assange. He's a scum bag, if none of you knew. The only good thing Zizek did was say he'll put him in a gulag.

His (Zizek's)defense of "Liberty" also disgusted me. He is much more interesting in his books, in my opinion.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

maybe you guys are unaware, but it's really hard to debate in a foreign language

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Horowitz is a piece of shit.
That's an insult to shit! :D

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

David Horowitz, a radical right-wing Zionist, who back in the day was a left-wing radical and was involved in fundraising for the Black Panther Party.
WTF ever happened to him? That's just a bizarre transformation. I can see someone going from right to left, waking up to reality, but going the other way? It's like deliberately blinding yourself.

[NewLeft]

I read a chapter of "Free world colossus" without even realizing it was by Horowitz. It's crazy how the death of Betty Patter was able to reverse him 180.. His experience with the Panthers and the death of his friend.. In a way, I sort of understand why he rejected 'all of that.'


WTF ever happened to him? That's just a bizarre transformation. I can see someone going from right to left, waking up to reality, but going the other way? It's like deliberately blinding yourself.
Going from the far left to far right isn't that hard to believe, considering how his moral convictions motivate his politics.

[black magick hustla]

bafoon vs bafoon

[Zealot]

Main points made by David Horowitz

- Obama is a secret Communist
- The international left is one of the most powerful forces in the world
- America is no longer a superpower
- America needs to dominate everyone else because no other country is an acceptable candidate of being a "superpower"
- Fascism is an extreme leftist tendency
- George Bush was too peaceful

Legit IRL troll.

[KurtFF8]

Edit: nevermind it was a different far right personality with the same last name in the story I was talking about.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Main points made by David Horowitz

- Obama is a secret Communist
- The international left is one of the most powerful forces in the world
- America is no longer a superpower
- America needs to dominate everyone else because no other country is an acceptable candidate of being a "superpower"
- Fascism is an extreme leftist tendency
- George Bush was too peaceful

Legit IRL troll.

I liked it when he said (in response to the question of how you prevent a massive military-survelliance state from turning into something resembling the USSR) that the system is really one resembling "competing Mafias". How comforting, to know that my government is run by "competing Mafias"!

[leninista]

I didn't take much away from this episode. Horowitz was determined to control the conversation and Assange's attempts to keep them on topic failed miserably. It was like herding cats. Was the word "capitalism" even uttered one time by Zizek?

Compared to the interview with Nasrallah last week, this episode was a letdown. Assange was so obviously unskilled at balancing the dialogue and with two giant egos like Zizek and Horowitz I suppose he never had a chance anyway.

I always need a Valium after I hear Zizek speak. It's like the guy has an anxiety disorder or ADD or something, and it makes me antsy just listening to him.

And Horowitz is a complete asshole. :( It's embarrassing that this clown was ever connected to the Panthers.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I was about to post this here after having seen it! This Horowitz person... what a fucking handful, someone send this worm to starve in Africa!

[Ostrinski]

I have to say though, Horowitz is a worm, but he definitely did better in that debate than Zizek.

[Zealot]

For anyone who didn't know how to pronounce Slavoj Zizek:
4uh5MB17v9A

The way Zizek talks and acts is something that makes him unique and is probably to his benefit more than anything.

[Krano]

I suppose my dissatisfaction comes from Assange. He's a scum bag, if none of you knew. The only good thing Zizek did was say he'll put him in a gulag.

His (Zizek's)defense of "Liberty" also disgusted me. He is much more interesting in his books, in my opinion.
:confused:

[the zizekian]

Compare to Zizek, Horowitz seems very bland, dead may be a better term.

[Deicide]

This debate was shit.

[the zizekian]

This debate was shit.

beep

[JustMovement]

I think it was a reasonably good debate considering the circumstances. Zizek doesnt go in for the usual sloganeering, and was attempting to start some kind of dialogue. They come from such different perspectives that any "proper" debate would just devolve into a shouting match, and the two of them talking past each other so I think he did well to not let it get to that.

As far Horowitz is concerned, to be honest I really felt bad for him. He seems like such a sad, defeated man. His world-view is rabidly paranoid. To me it seems obvious that his political life has been dominated by the death of his friend.

[the zizekian]

To me, the best moment comes at time 21:40 when Zizek proposes to get rid of the moderator (Assange) and push the debate to its extremes.

[Bronco]

It wasn't that good a debate, or really that informative. We got to hear a lot of Horowitz's usual rhetoric but I think Zizek struggled a bit, like when Horowitz said peace only prevails when there's a power that can intimidate aggressors, and when he asked who that could be if not the USA Zizek didn't have much of a response. Maybe it was because of the language barrier but I don't think he articulated himself very well

[the zizekian]

It wasn't that good a debate, or really that informative. We got to hear a lot of Horowitz's usual rhetoric but I think Zizek struggled a bit, like when Horowitz said peace only prevails when there's a power that can intimidate aggressors, and when he asked who that could be if not the USA Zizek didn't have much of a response. Maybe it was because of the language barrier but I don't think he articulated himself very well

I think that Zizek’s answer (the USA is not even a candidate anymore) was more than perfect: it pushes further the debate to the Left.

[Bronco]

I think that Zizek’s answer (the USA is not even a candidate anymore) was more than perfect: it pushes further the debate to the Left.

Well the first thing he said was "I don't know", to me it seemed that he was conceding that the premise of Horowitz's argument was correct - that it was necessary for a superpower to intimidate other countries to preserve peace - just that the USA might not be this power

[the zizekian]

Well the first thing he said was "I don't know", to me it seemed that he was conceding that the premise of Horowitz's argument was correct - that it was necessary for a superpower to intimidate other countries to preserve peace - just that the USA might not be this power

Zizek certainly agrees with Horowitz’s premise and the fact that he doesn’t know just adds something nice to the necessity of intimidation, of cultivating terrorism in fact.

[KurtFF8]

It wasn't that good a debate, or really that informative. We got to hear a lot of Horowitz's usual rhetoric but I think Zizek struggled a bit, like when Horowitz said peace only prevails when there's a power that can intimidate aggressors, and when he asked who that could be if not the USA Zizek didn't have much of a response. Maybe it was because of the language barrier but I don't think he articulated himself very well

His response was appropriate to an extent I thought: pointing out that the coming "multipolar world" is indeed dangerous and that the Left can't just cheer on the decline of America without having a force to replace it.

[the zizekian]

His response was appropriate to an extent I thought: pointing out that the coming "multipolar world" is indeed dangerous and that the Left can't just cheer on the decline of America without having a force to replace it.

As a Zizekian, I simply think that China will lead the world to the best Pax ever recorded, if only we are all, paradoxically, terrorized enough by this perspective.

[Delenda Carthago]

Zizek greatly dissapointed me. In modern times, he is experiencing a degeneracy.

He is a weak debater. He always gives the enemy the upper hand.

Thats only cause you had expectations from him. Me, I am not sure whether he is a moron or a provocateur. Now that I know that he used to be anti-communist, I tend to the second.

[the zizekian]

Thats only cause you had expectations from him. Me, I am not sure whether he is a moron or a provocateur. Now that I know that he used to be anti-communist, I tend to the second.

“Anti-communist” is a meaningless word.

[Susurrus]

I liked it when he said (in response to the question of how you prevent a massive military-survelliance state from turning into something resembling the USSR) that the system is really one resembling "competing Mafias". How comforting, to know that my government is run by "competing Mafias"!

So basically, this?:laugh:
cNZKUozrBl4


Personally, I'm just glad Assange is having a show that might actually cause intellectual stimulus, rather than just discussing the latest sensation or celebrity the way nearly every other show does nowadays.

[the zizekian]

Thats only cause you had expectations from him. Me, I am not sure whether he is a moron or a provocateur. Now that I know that he used to be anti-communist, I tend to the second.

Zizek’s “anti-communism” was in fact a more ambitious communism and Horowitch’s “anti-communism” is in fact either a closet communism or a hidden/unconscious communism.

[Fennec]

It's interesting that Žižek distances from Tariq Ali and calls him and the "old left" friends of Horowitz.

[the zizekian]

It's interesting that Žižek distances from Tariq Ali and calls him and the "old left" friends of Horowitz.

We have to remember here that Ali is historian and Zizek is an anti-historicist.

[moulinrouge]

Slavoj zizek only cares about his own ego and purse. He claims to be a communist but is not involved in any revolutionary organization.

And i really don't give a shit about who has the most humor or charm when it comes to a debate. This debate was like teens trying to diss each other or a typical argument in the youtube comments section.

[the zizekian]

Slavoj zizek only cares about his own ego and purse.

Tariq Ali (Verso) is Zizek’s purse and he said that he doesn’t care about Ali’s friendship.

[Susurrus]

"the swedes have no morals" is where I abandoned ship.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Throughout the entire argument, the most interesting thing was Zizek's accent. Everything else was just a cliche reactionary vs. slightly crazy leftist fight.

[cb9's_unity]

That was an odd 28 minutes of my life. This is highlighted by the end where Zizek bemoans the Republicans inability to produce a stronger presidential candidate and then, jokingly, accuses Horowitz of promoting socialism with a human face. And almost nothing was learned.

[the zizekian]

the most interesting thing was Zizek's accent...

Hidden racism!?

[Jimmie Higgins]

"People are the problem" - David Horowitz

Wow, David Horowitz is like a living collection of right-wing straw-men about the left. You'd think that someone who at one time had some connection with the left would at least have more sophisticated arguments than "communism goes against human nature".

I agree that Zizek is not the best debater (at least here - I haven't seen him in other debates) or the best at clearly arguing some basic rad-left talking points. It's almost like they were too mismatched in their style - like it should have been Zizek and someone who defends capitalism on a more ideological and philosophical level. Horowitz was in Fox-News mode: repeat short bullshit constructions over and over. Zizek seemed to be under the impression that this was just some honest friendly discussion, not a soundbite argument competition.

I debated Horowitz once, if you count me shouting him down and him storming off the stage and yelling, "you're all brainwashed by communist professors!" as a debate :D

[Jimmie Higgins]

We have to remember here that Ali is historian and Zizek is an anti-historicist.Being anti-historicist in a Marxist sense doesn't mean being anti-history (or the study of). A lot of the new left in academia, after the decline of the movements, turned to historicist in a kind of crude determinist way to explain the total dominance of bourgeois ideas and values at the end of the last century.

I'm frankly not read at all in Zizek, so I'm not sure what his criticisms are, but I think in general historicism is criticized for being overly deterministic and a crude view of the relationship between base and superstructure.

[the zizekian]

Being anti-historicist in a Marxist sense doesn't mean being anti-history (or the study of). A lot of the new left in academia, after the decline of the movements, turned to historicist in a kind of crude determinist way to explain the total dominance of bourgeois ideas and values at the end of the last century.

I'm frankly not read at all in Zizek, so I'm not sure what his criticisms are, but I think in general historicism is criticized for being overly deterministic and a crude view of the relationship between base and superstructure.

I think a Leftist should refuse to be called historian and insist he rather engage history to rewrite it entirely.

[Mindtoaster]

Horowitz's rhetoric seems completely irrelevant in the post-Bush years. FFS I had to check the date of this thread to make sure it wasn't necro'd from 2007 or something

Zizek should have had a field day with him, but it looks like he has trouble debating in english, especially against someone as loud mouthed as Horowitz

[the zizekian]

Horowitz's rhetoric seems completely irrelevant in the post-Bush years. FFS I had to check the date of this thread to make sure it wasn't necro'd from 2007 or something

In 2007, Assange could not have attracted Zizek’s attention.

[Delenda Carthago]

It's interesting that Žižek distances from Tariq Ali and calls him and the "old left" friends of Horowitz.

Thank Marx we have the "new" post modern left of Zizek to bring us to the future.

[the zizekian]

Thank Marx we have the "new" post modern left of Zizek to bring us to the future.

Zizek is modern not postmodern.