DPRK making threats again, says "would turn South Korea to ash in 4 minutes"

[Ostrinski]

North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" (http://news.yahoo.com/nkorean-military-warns-special-actions-soon-110332750.html) in less than four minutes.
The statement, released Monday when programming was interrupted on North Korea's state TV by a special report (http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-vows-special-actions-turn-seoul-ashes-142914265--abc-news-topstories.html), comes amid rising tensions on the Korean peninsula.
Earlier this month, North Korea was unsuccessful in a long-range missile launch (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/north-korea-launches-long-range-missile-232147093.html), prompting worries that North Korea may conduct another nuclear test. South Korean officials say new satellite images show that North Korea has been digging a tunnel (http://news.yahoo.com/n-korea-may-ready-nuclear-test-055024361.html) in what appears to be preparation for a third atomic test.
According to the Associated Press, the statement from North Korea was unusual in promising something soon and in describing a specific period of time.
The North Korean military threatened to "reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."
For months the North has castigated South Korean President Lee Myung-bak and the conservative administration for insulting their leadership and criticizing a new cruise missile (http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-vows-special-actions-turn-seoul-ashes-142914265--abc-news-topstories.html) capable of striking anywhere in the south.
South Korean officials responded, urging North Korea to end the threats. "We urge North Korea to immediately stop this practice," Unification Ministry spokesman Kim Hyung-suk said, according to the Associated Press. "We express deep concern that the North's threats and accusations have worsened inter-Korean ties and heightened tensions."
Meanwhile, in a meeting Sunday with a North Korean delegation (http://news.yahoo.com/china-offers-praise-friendship-north-korea-033324605.html) in Beijing, China's senior official on foreign policy praised the leadership shown by North Korea's new young leader, Kim Jong Un.
The meeting follows the April 13 launch of what the United States called a disguised ballistic missile test by North Korea. The rocket disintegrated minutes after launch.What is the logic behind this? These cats need a lesson in PR.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/north-korea-issues-unusually-specific-threat-152720861.html

[Prometeo liberado]

I read this earlier today and did some head scratching over it. I mean really! Can you make this all any harder than it already is. I'm just waiting for the first leftist party to come out with something like "What the DPRK was referring to was the 'four minute' technological advancements made in the field of defense under the sublime leadership of the Kim's". Ya, not so much a threat as it was suicide by cop.

[Ostrinski]

I still can't figure out how saying things of this nature will be at all beneficial to them.

[Blanquist]

I still can't figure out how saying things of this nature will be at all beneficial to them.

Obvious sign of weakness. The NK regime is on it's deathbed.

[Deicide]

They are just defending themselves from U.S. imperialism in the name of Communism.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I still can't figure out how saying things of this nature will be at all beneficial to them.

I reckon it's that time again, the time to bring more attention to themselves. They seem to do this regularly by issuing a sudden proclamation of capacity to destroy Seoul.

Maybe that religious nutter Myung-bak did some proclamation himself too? One never knows with them. They seem to go back and forth this way a lot...

[ВАЛТЕР]

Their threats sound like those used by Bond villains. :laugh:

[Ostrinski]

They are just defending themselves from U.S. imperialism in the name of Communism.And just as so as we should stand with them in solidarity against the imperialist NATO jackals.

[Ostrinski]

Obvious sign of weakness. The NK regime is on it's deathbed.Perhaps so, I wonder if they'll try to go out with a "bang."

[Dire Helix]

Not even slightly amusing. They should`ve said that they possess long-range ICBMs with multiple warheads and are ready to fire them at the US any minute. The hysteria(and the "lulz") would be epic.

[Shakey_Jake33]

I'd say this is more likely to be domestic muscle-flexing than anything really directed towards the rest of the world, despite the rhetoric.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I like how you guys pretend that North Korea has never been threatened by South Korea or the United States before and that North Korea is just crazy.....the same things the Western capitalist media thinks. The whole atmosphere on that peninsula has been heated ever since the North's attempt at national liberation in the 1940's and 1950's and the imperialist counterattack. It is not surprising to hear this kind of stupid rhetoric from the nation that has been threatened the most in this whole 60-year-long shitstorm.

Was it stupid? Yes. Was it unjustified and surprising? No.

[gorillafuck]

the only reason I can imagine them releasing this statement is to stir up domestic hatred of south korea.


I like how you guys pretend that North Korea has never been threatened by South Korea or the United States before and that North Korea is just crazy.....just like the Western capitalist media.everyone knows they get threatened. that does not make me, and hopefully everyone else, any less confused at what would cause them to release this sort of statement. North Korea is obviously a government run by intelligent people (I'm not saying that sarcastically). why would intelligent people want to release a statement like this?

[Proukunin]

North Korea is crazy, along with the US and South Korea..Juche isn't even a form of Communism. Why should we support either side? except for reasons of imperialism maybe.

[Shakey_Jake33]

I like how you guys pretend that North Korea has never been threatened by South Korea or the United States before and that North Korea is just crazy.....just like the Western capitalist media. The whole atmosphere on that peninsula has been heated ever since the attempt at national liberation in the 1940's and 1950's and the imperialist counterattack. It is not surprising to hear this from the nation that has been threatened the most in this whole 60 year long shitstorm. Was it stupid? Yes. Was it unjustified and surprising? No.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. My only point is that we're not really the target of this rhetoric and nor is South Korea. This is just part of a domestic consolidation of power by means of displaying brinkmanship.

[Blanquist]

North Korea is crazy, along with the US and South Korea..Juche isn't even a form of Communism. Why should we support either side? except for reasons of imperialism maybe.

I'd like to see a war, it would raise the social class-conscious of workers on both sides.

[#FF0000]

I'd like to see a war, it would raise the social class-conscious of workers on both sides.

you are so stupid it hurts

[Raúl Duke]

I'd like to see a war, it would raise the social class-conscious of workers on both sides.

wishing for war ain't nice!
people will die!

[gorillafuck]

I'd like to see a war, it would raise the social class-conscious of workers on both sides.no, that's not true at all. that would be a catastrophic situation for the working class of both countries (and would be even more devastating for Koreans, because they'd be getting bombed to death).

[Leftsolidarity]

I'd like to see a war, it would raise the social class-conscious of workers on both sides.

Yay, lets go have members of the working class go kill other members of the working class to "raise the social class conscious". I mean every time that's happened in the past that's been the outcome....

so fucking stupid

[Blanquist]

Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.

[Leftsolidarity]

Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.

No.... I think you're mistaking "war" and "class war".

Two very different things.

Also, even if it was "a basic tenet of Marxism" like you falsely state, that doesn't mean it raises class consciousness. That just means working class people die.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.

Mari3L's magical mod edit don't post pictures outside of chit chat

[#FF0000]

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism

lol what


that is proven by the sum of human experience.

Uh war between north and south korea isn't inevitable nor is it something we should cheerlead.

[NewLeft]

Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.
You're saying it's inevitable here, but before you said you'd like to see a war.

[Proukunin]

so working class people killing working class people is Marxism? I need to go read Marx again.

:confused:

[Blanquist]

All revolutions are born out of war.

War now is preferable to the alternatives or the status quo.

[Leftsolidarity]

All revolutions are born out of war.

War now is preferable to the alternatives or the status quo.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I like how we all united to attack the war monger. I feel like...... I fit in for once. :crying:

[Drosophila]

Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.

Please tell me you're joking. Not like I would give a shit if you got restricted anyway.

[NewLeft]

All revolutions are born out of war.

War now is preferable to the alternatives or the status quo.
Revolution will not occur simply because there was a war.

[Blanquist]

Revolution will not occur simply because there was a war.

But it won't occur without one.

[marl]

All revolutions are born out of war.

War now is preferable to the alternatives or the status quo.

lol dude, it'd be a bourgeoisie geopolitical war, not a class war. and guess what, the dprk is a capitalist state!

[#FF0000]

All revolutions are born out of war.

War now is preferable to the alternatives or the status quo.

Nope.

[NewLeft]

But it won't occur without one.
A 'civil' war? But this is a war between two states.

[Leftsolidarity]

But it won't occur without one.

Since when??? You have no materialist analysis of this at all. You're pull stuff out of your ass because you're a pseudo-intellectual who wants to sound smart. Go read some fucking communist literature so you can at least kind of sound like you know what you're talking about. Throw in some out-of-context quotes or something at least.

[Blanquist]

A 'civil' war? But this is a war between two states.

You really believe that?

A war between Koreans is a civil war

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I like how you guys pretend that North Korea has never been threatened by South Korea or the United States before and that North Korea is just crazy.....the same things the Western capitalist media thinks. The whole atmosphere on that peninsula has been heated ever since the North's attempt at national liberation in the 1940's and 1950's and the imperialist counterattack. It is not surprising to hear this kind of stupid rhetoric from the nation that has been threatened the most in this whole 60-year-long shitstorm.

Was it stupid? Yes. Was it unjustified and surprising? No.

That would imply that North Korea was responding to a particular existential threat against the regime. There is no justification for this act because the RoK and USA have not been any more aggressive now than at any other time. Certainly not a threat which justifies an aggressive military act which will leave tens of thousands (if not more) of workers dead or injured. I agree, however, that we should not be "surprised", this is a regime largely based on its military power which has been backed into a corner economically and diplomatically ever since the fall of the USSR, which means these kinds of statements should be expected.

Also "attempt at national liberation" and "imperialist counterattack" would imply that the Kims are in some way "liberators." The current state of the DPRK would indicate that they are not, to say nothing of such laughable decisions as trying to kidnap foreign actors to work in the film industry. I'm sure me questioning the revolutionary credentials of the KWP will make me marked as a "liberal" by some but the ability for workers to question their government openly and organize the means of production on their own terms independently of the military or bureaucracy is a given for real socialist liberation. If that makes me a "liberal" ... then so be it.



North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" (http://news.yahoo.com/nkorean-military-warns-special-actions-soon-110332750.html) in less than four minutes.
The statement, released Monday when programming was interrupted on North Korea's state TV by a special report (http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-vows-special-actions-turn-seoul-ashes-142914265--abc-news-topstories.html), comes amid rising tensions on the Korean peninsula.
Earlier this month, North Korea was unsuccessful in a long-range missile launch (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/north-korea-launches-long-range-missile-232147093.html), prompting worries that North Korea may conduct another nuclear test. South Korean officials say new satellite images show that North Korea has been digging a tunnel (http://news.yahoo.com/n-korea-may-ready-nuclear-test-055024361.html) in what appears to be preparation for a third atomic test.
According to the Associated Press, the statement from North Korea was unusual in promising something soon and in describing a specific period of time.
The North Korean military threatened to "reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."
For months the North has castigated South Korean President Lee Myung-bak and the conservative administration for insulting their leadership and criticizing a new cruise missile (http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-vows-special-actions-turn-seoul-ashes-142914265--abc-news-topstories.html) capable of striking anywhere in the south.
South Korean officials responded, urging North Korea to end the threats. "We urge North Korea to immediately stop this practice," Unification Ministry spokesman Kim Hyung-suk said, according to the Associated Press. "We express deep concern that the North's threats and accusations have worsened inter-Korean ties and heightened tensions."
Meanwhile, in a meeting Sunday with a North Korean delegation (http://news.yahoo.com/china-offers-praise-friendship-north-korea-033324605.html) in Beijing, China's senior official on foreign policy praised the leadership shown by North Korea's new young leader, Kim Jong Un.
The meeting follows the April 13 launch of what the United States called a disguised ballistic missile test by North Korea. The rocket disintegrated minutes after launch.What is the logic behind this? These cats need a lesson in PR.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/north-korea-issues-unusually-specific-threat-152720861.html

It really is telling that they spend more of their economic output on offensive military capabilities against South Korea as opposed to either (1) productive industry to improve the living standards of their own people or (2) international revolution. This is all the logical conclusion of a "military first" policy where the generals are the "ruling class" and not the workers. You get a defensive, paranoid state which determines is strength largely in terms of its ability to save off "imperialist aggression" etc. Whether or not it is what Kim Il-Sung envisioned is irrelevant, it's certainly what seems to exist in North Korea now.


Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.

(1) Just because something is inevitable it doesn't mean you should *want* it

(2) War is the result of a Capitalist society that needs to push beyond its borders violently to grow economically, and in that sense war is inevitable. However the whole point of being a revolutionary during peace time is to convince people that it's just easier on everyone to get the whole revolution thing done with *before* millions of young men (and increasingly women) in uniform as well as civilians die face down in the mud.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

You really believe that?

A war between Koreans is a civil war

They are one people, but not one state. Not at all.

[gorillafuck]

Oh please spare me your liberal fantasy land.

The inevitability of war is a basic tenet of Marxism that is proven by the sum of human experience.yes, war is inevitable between capitalist regimes. but war does not mean socialist revolution and is to be fought against as a symptom of capitalism. it most often means death for the working classes of all involved countries. especially in this case, as revolution as an outcome of war is generally in the defeated country. not the victorious country. America would obviously be the victor, and North Korea would be a crater. that doesn't spell world revolution.

[Ele'ill]

Comrade Commistar verbal for picture posting

[Drosophila]

You really believe that?

A war between Koreans is a civil war

What? They're two separate states, and have been for decades. That's like saying a war between Canada and the USA would be a civil war.

[Proukunin]

No it's a war between two different nations.

That's like saying a war between Canada and the U.S. would be a civil war. being that they're both in North America.

[Proukunin]

What? They're two separate states, and have been for decades. That's like saying a war between Canada and the USA would be a civil war.

sorry for posting the same thing, didn't get down to yours before I posted mine lol:thumbup1:

[gorillafuck]

They are one people, but not one state. Not at all.no they are not "one people" any more than Americans and British are "one people". for one, that is nationalism. for two, even if we are to say that Koreans share the same culture, language, etc. then.....we'd still be wrong. North and South Koreans have developed distinct cultures, dialects, and traditions.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What? They're two separate states, and have been for decades. That's like saying a war between Canada and the USA would be a civil war.

Or the war of 1812!

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

no they are not "one people" any more than Americans and British are "one people". for one, that is nationalism. for two, even if we are to say that Koreans share the same culture, language, etc. then.....we'd still be wrong. North and South Koreans have developed distinct cultures, dialects, and traditions.

1. How the fuck is that nationalism? I am not even Korean, nor do I support any type of Korean nationalism or patriotism.

2. They are genetically one people. They even consider themselves to be one people. So, would you also say that North and South Germans are not one people simply because they have different dialects and slightly different cultures?

[gorillafuck]

1. How the fuck is that nationalism? I am not even Korean, nor do I support any type of Korean nationalism or patriotism.you are saying they are one people. I assumed that you based this off of them both being called "korean". Am I right?


2. They are genetically one people. They even consider themselves to be one people. So, would you also say that North and South Germans are not one people simply because they have different dialects and slightly different cultures?no, I do not think that North and South Germans are "one people" because I don't consider capitalist countries to be a legitimate union of people, I consider them to be a capitalist union of people. I support class politics as opposed to national politics.

and "genetically one people"? all people are genetically extremely similar, the differences are small. and I don't base my political opinions on peoples genetics. whites are genetically one people in the same way that North and South Koreans are. and you don't support the establishment of a white state based on genetics. so why would you support the establishment of a korean state based on genetics?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

2. They are genetically one people. They even consider themselves to be one people. So, would you also say that North and South Germans are not one people simply because they have different dialects and slightly different cultures?

What does "genetically one people" mean?


1. How the fuck is that nationalism? I am not even Korean, nor do I support any type of Korean nationalism or patriotism.You need to be more critical about the genealogy of national identity. It's not some magical natural kind. It's certainly not genetic. It exists, but it exists because society wills it to exist, and it develops as something historically contingent, not absolute. "Korean" is a relative term, just like "German", "Russian", "Australian" and "Chinese."

[Leftsolidarity]

no they are not "one people" any more than Americans and British are "one people". for one, that is nationalism. for two, even if we are to say that Koreans share the same culture, language, etc. then.....we'd still be wrong. North and South Koreans have developed distinct cultures, dialects, and traditions.

The Korean nation was split by outside forces not that long ago.

They are 1 people. I don't understand how a communist could claim otherwise. Your example does not hold up at all.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

you are saying they are one people. I assumed that you based this off of them both being called "korean". Am I right?

no, I do not think that North and South Germans are "one people" because I don't consider nations to be a legitimate union of people, I consider them to be a capitalist union of people. I support class politics as opposed to national politics.

and "genetically one people"? all people are genetically extremely similar, the differences are small. and I don't base my political opinions on peoples genetics. whites are genetically one people in the same way that North and South Koreans are. and you don't support the establishment of a white state based on genetics. so why would you support the establishment of a korean state based on genetics?

Shit, I don't know what to say. :( I didn't really mean it like that, but I guess that's just how it is going to sound like no matter what.

[gorillafuck]

Shit, I don't know what to say. :( I didn't really mean it like that, but I guess that's just how it is going to sound like no matter what.I don't mean to be cruel or anything. the reason it's going to sound like that is because that is the logical conclusion of what you're saying. your view you were putting forward is based on genetic, aka racial politics as opposed to class politics.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The Korean nation was split by outside forces not that long ago.

They are 1 people. I don't understand how a communist could claim otherwise. Your example does not hold up at all.

What made them "one people"? God? The Sky Dragon? I would go with the King and Nobility of medieval Korea, who imposed a common set of values amongst a group of tribes smaller kingdoms with similar but distinct languages and cultures, just like any nation. We shouldn't be beholden to upholding the ontological distinctness of any national grouping, it is an identity which largely benefits the elites of these societies, not the masses.

[Leftsolidarity]

What made them "one people"? God? The Sky Dragon? I would go with the King and Nobility of medieval Korea, who imposed a common set of values amongst a group of tribes smaller kingdoms with similar but distinct languages and cultures, just like any nation. We shouldn't be beholden to upholding the ontological distinctness of any national grouping, it is an identity which largely benefits the elites of these societies, not the masses.

Language, culture, hieritage, geography, etc.

There was 1 korean nation. I don't see how imperialists splitting the country in 2 suddenly means there's 2 korean nations now.

I don't really view it as racial politics or anything but even Koreans say that and they want to be re-unified.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

It is funny how I caused a two page shitstorm for just one little comment I made. This thread was about to die, but then the big, bad Stalinist had to come and fuck it up. :)

[gorillafuck]

Language, culture, hieritage, geography, etc.Americans and British people share a common language and heritage.

and as far as culture, North and South Korea have very different cultures.


There was 1 korean nation. I don't see how imperialists splitting the country in 2 suddenly means there's 2 korean nations now.you're confused how there are two Korean nations?

http://i.infoplease.com/images/mnkorea.gif

that is how. I don't see what there is to be confused about.


I don't really view it as racial politics or anything but even Koreans say that and they want to be re-unified.most Koreans want the Korean peninsula unified. on the condition that it is under their respective bourgeois governments.


It is funny how I caused a two page shitstorm for just one little comment I made. This thread was about to die, but then the big, bad Stalinist had to come and fuck it up. :)it's a good discussion.

[Leftsolidarity]

Americans and British people share a common language and heritage.



Maybe 200 years ago.



and as far as culture, North and South Korea have very different cultures.

you're confused how there are two Korean nations?

http://i.infoplease.com/images/mnkorea.gif

that is how. I don't see what there is to be confused about.



That's country borders, not borders for nationality. Those are artifical lines made by imperialists which split the Korean nation.



most Koreans want the Korean peninsula unified. on the condition that it is under their respective bourgeois governments.



That doesn't mean that they don't view themselves as 1 nation.

[Ostrinski]

Maybe 200 years ago.Americans don't share a common language, heritage, and culture with the British :confused:?

[Leftsolidarity]

Americans don't share a common language, heritage, and culture with the British :confused:?

Language, kind of. Heritage, no. Culture, not really.

[Ostrinski]

Heritage, no. Culture, not really.You're not serious. Can you elaborate?

[Os Cangaceiros]

The culture is roughly the same. We both eat a lot of fast food, watch shitty television, whine about our menial jobs, hate our stupid politicians but continue to vote for them anyway, etc.

[Leftsolidarity]

The culture is roughly the same. We both eat a lot of fast food, watch shitty television, whine about our menial jobs, hate our stupid politicians but continue to vote for them anyway, etc.

Eh, I would say that is a lot generalized Western culture.

[Os Cangaceiros]

This shit out of the DPRK is stupid anyway you look at it. I love how the RoK responds to it, too. It just makes the DPRK look like a petulent 2nd grader who throws crayons everywhere in order to get attention, while the RoK and the USA are the patient teacher who says "Now Timmy, is that really productive behaviour, hmmmm?"

step up your game, DPRK!

[Hiero]

"reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."

It is a direct response to South Korea's new missile system. What is the problem here? They are at war, so anything to do with military, such a movement, improvements, advancements etc is consider a military threat that has to be responded to.

DPRK did not say they would turn South Korea (as in southern Korea) to ashes.

[Hiero]

This shit out of the DPRK is stupid anyway you look at it. I love how the RoK responds to it, too. It just makes the DPRK look like a petulent 2nd grader who throws crayons everywhere in order to get attention, while the RoK and the USA are the patient teacher who says "Now Timmy, is that really productive behaviour, hmmmm?"

step up your game, DPRK!

USA USA USA USA!

You're fool.

[Leftsolidarity]

"reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."

It is a direct response to South Korea's new missile system. What is the problem here? They are at war, so anything to do with military, such a movement, improvements, advancements etc is consider a military threat that has to be responded to.

DPRK did not say they would turn South Korea (as in southern Korea) to ashes.

While I can (and actually did in class today but it was quoted differently so apparently none of us knew what we were talking about) defend the DPRK for making such a statement, it is just dumb. Like has been said before, they end up looking like a child with a temper problem.

[Os Cangaceiros]

You're fool.

hehe ;)

[Ostrinski]

There is no "American culture," that is such a right wing nationalistic view. America is not three centuries old yet, how is it supposed to have developed a completely unique way of life, being distinguishable from western European culture?

The language is the same.

Heritage, i.e. something inherited from the past? Well shit, this is basically former British Empire. Britain IS our heritage.

[gorillafuck]

Maybe 200 years ago.no, they definitely do today. they share a common heritage (after all, America broke off of England), a common language (English), and common culture. they are not identical in language and culture, but then again, neither are North and South Korea.


That's country borders, not borders for nationality. Those are artifical lines made by imperialists which split the Korean nation.just as artificial as the borders which split all nations.

in fact, all borders in Africa were created by colonialists. do you specifically advocate the unification of Algeria and Morocco because their borders were created by colonialists?


That doesn't mean that they don't view themselves as 1 nation.so people in two different countries both want their own country to takeover the other, and you support this?

[Leftsolidarity]

There is no "American culture," that is such a right wing nationalistic view. America is not three centuries old yet, how is it supposed to have developed a completely unique way of life, being distinguishable from western European culture?

The language is the same.



Umm.... Then how does this not apply to the Korean peninsula as well?.....


Heritage, i.e. something inherited from the past? Well shit, this is basically former British Empire. Britain IS our heritage.

Dude. I don't think the majority of American citizens are at all decendents from British immigrants/colonists. We are made up of almost every nationality in the world.

[Ostrinski]

Umm.... Then how does this not apply to the Korean peninsula as well?.....Never said it doesn't from a strictly observational point of view, but that doesn't excuse nationalism, not from a communist point of view.


Dude. I don't think the majority of American citizens are at all decendents from British immigrants/colonists. We are made up of almost every nationality in the world.No doubt. But our way of life is directly inherited from western Europe. These "differences" are purely differences of aesthetic.

[Leftsolidarity]

no, they definitely do today. they share a common heritage (after all, America broke off of England), a common language (English), and common culture. they are not identical in language and culture, but then again, neither are North and South Korea.



Kind of talking about this in other comments so I don't feel a need to respond here.



just as artificial as the borders which split all nations.



I'm not in disagreement. Nations and countries are different though. There are 2 countries in Korea but 1 Korean nation.


so people in two different countries both want their own country to takeover the other, and you support this?

Never said that. I also don't think that many of them want a violent takeover of the other.

Anyhow, wouldn't you view the DPRK's original "invasion" as a national liberation struggle? Wouldn't it be the same now?

[Leftsolidarity]

Never said it doesn't from a strictly observational point of view, but that doesn't excuse nationalism, not from a communist point of view.


It's not really "nationalism". It's recognizing the fact that there is a Korean nation and just because imperialists create borders doesn't mean they create new nations.

That's like saying acknowledging race exists is racism. It may be a social construct and we might not like it but it now exists in society and we have to deal with it.


No doubt. But our way of life is directly inherited from western Europe. These "differences" are purely differences of aesthetic

Ehhhh I don't completely agree. I feel like this doesn't matter much, though, to what we're talking about. Unless you feel there's something of value in this part of the discussion...

[gorillafuck]

]I'm not in disagreement. Nations and countries are different though. There are 2 countries in Korea but 1 Korean nation.why is Korea one nation while Cambodia and Vietnam are not?


Never said that. I also don't think that many of them want a violent takeover of the other.well then you don't know how reunification would happen. reunification would either be caused by violence or by an internal collapse of North Korea and integration into South Korea.


Anyhow, wouldn't you view the DPRK's original "invasion" as a national liberation struggle? Wouldn't it be the same now?I view it as part of the civil war which split Korea into two nations.


It's not really "nationalism". It's recognizing the fact that there is a Korean nationby arguing that the Korean nation is not an artificial thing and is something which unifies all people called Koreans, that is nationalism.

[Ostrinski]

It's not really "nationalism". It's recognizing the fact that there is a Korean nation and just because imperialists create borders doesn't mean they create new nations.

That's like saying acknowledging race exists is racism. It may be a social construct and we might not like it but it now exists in society and we have to deal with it.The point is that yes, nationality and race are both social constructs, but more importantly bourgeois social constructs. Bourgeois social constructs, having been crafted in bourgeois society and therefore weapons of the bourgeoisie, cannot also be weapons of the proletariat.

[gorillafuck]

Ehhhh I don't completely agree. I feel like this doesn't matter much, though, to what we're talking about. Unless you feel there's something of value in this part of the discussion...it matters because it is applying the same logic that you are applying by asserting that Koreans, regardless of class, are unified by ethnicity in one nation which should be advocated.

[Hiero]

While I can (and actually did in class today but it was quoted differently so apparently none of us knew what we were talking about) defend the DPRK for making such a statement, it is just dumb. Like has been said before, they end up looking like a child with a temper problem.

Dumb to who? It is fucking yahoo news. It is a war for Christ sake.

South Korea makes provocation, North Korea says "don't try it!"". Some shitty online news site says "North Korea is a crazy!" And you fucking idiots gobble it up like chickens eating grain at a barn.

None of you are actually socialists. It has nothing to do with DPRK, it is because you lack independent critical thought.

[Leftsolidarity]

Ok, a couple different things to respond too. I'll be back in like 30 minutes or if not, I'll respond tomorrow.

[gorillafuck]

South Korea makes provocation, North Korea says "don't try it!"". Some shitty online news site says "North Korea is a crazy!" And you fucking idiots gobble it up like chickens eating grain at a barn.it's just confusing to a lot of us why a statement like this would be released. because obviously the South Korean government isn't going to have their positions altered by threats like this and North Korea is run by intelligent people who are aware of that. so the only reason I can think of is for internal propaganda.


None of you are actually socialists. It has nothing to do with DPRK, it is because you lack independent critical thought.best of luck to you too.

edit: I wrote this but then realized some people did actually say NK is crazy. post editted accordingly.

[Leftsolidarity]

Dumb to who? It is fucking yahoo news. It is a war for Christ sake.

South Korea makes provocation, North Korea says "don't try it!"". Some shitty online news site says "North Korea is a crazy!" And you fucking idiots gobble it up like chickens eating grain at a barn.



Zeekloid basically covered what I was going to say.


None of you are actually socialists. It has nothing to do with DPRK, it is because you lack independent critical thought.

I'm not a socialist because I don't think that was the best statement the DPRK could have made?

[Leftsolidarity]

why is Korea one nation while Cambodia and Vietnam are not?



I don't know much about Cambodia or Vietnam so I can't really talk about that.



well then you don't know how reunification would happen. reunification would either be caused by violence or by an internal collapse of North Korea and integration into South Korea.



Maybe. I was just saying that there are a lot of Koreans that call for peaceful reunification. That's up to the Koreans to deal with though.



I view it as part of the civil war which split Korea into two nations.



What occured might have split it into 2 countries but not exactly 2 nations.


by arguing that the Korean nation is not an artificial thing and is something which unifies all people called Koreans, that is nationalism.

It, just like race, might have been created artificially but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[Leftsolidarity]

The point is that yes, nationality and race are both social constructs, but more importantly bourgeois social constructs. Bourgeois social constructs, having been crafted in bourgeois society and therefore weapons of the bourgeoisie, cannot also be weapons of the proletariat.

In a national liberation struggle, of course nationality would be used as a point of unity. Not saying that's good or bad but I'm saying that we can support a struggle for the national liberation of Korea from imperialist powers.

[gorillafuck]

this argument is repeating itself over and over. so I'll ask two questions to set this straight.

1) is, in your opinion, genetics what makes Koreans one nation?

2) why should countries be founded upon ideas of nationhood?

[Leftsolidarity]

this argument is repeating itself over and over. so I'll ask two questions to set this straight.



Good, I felt the same.



1) is, in your opinion, genetics what makes Koreans one nation?



No.


2) why should countries be founded upon ideas of nationhood?

Well, as a communist I don't uphold nationstates as preferred. I was simply arguing that even if there are 2 seperate countries, that doesn't mean they aren't the same nation.

[Hiero]

it's just confusing to a lot of us why a statement like this would be released. because obviously the South Korean government isn't going to have their positions altered by threats like this and North Korea is run by intelligent people who are aware of that. so the only reason I can think of is for internal propaganda.


I'm not a socialist because I don't think that was the best statement the DPRK could have made?

You both tell me what the DPRK statement was? I will tell you from the articles provided what appears to me as the DPRK statement.

In this article written by Dylan Stableford (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/author/dylan-stableford/) Dylan Stableford for "the envoy" with reporting from Ron Recinto Stableford states "North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" (http://news.yahoo.com/nkorean-military-warns-special-actions-soon-110332750.html;_ylt=AiR9o95KpE33rx5yNd0NpH_yWed_;_ ylu=X3oDMTFoNjRmYmZuBG1pdANCbG9nIEJvZHkEcG9zAzEEc2 VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0JvZHlUZW1wQXNzZW1ibHk-;_ylg=X3oDMTNibjJrZTM3BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDMzhjNmZkYTEtNTE5ZC0zYTBiLWIzYTgtN2I1MjNmYm YxYjdhBHBzdGNhdANvcmlnaW5hbHN8dGhlZW52b3kEcHQDc3Rv cnlwYWdlBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3) in less than four minutes."

It quotes another article as a source for this supposed threat. That article quoted can be found here. (http://news.yahoo.com/nkorean-military-warns-special-actions-soon-110332750.html;_ylt=AiR9o95KpE33rx5yNd0NpH_yWed_;_ ylu=X3oDMTFoNjRmYmZuBG1pdANCbG9nIEJvZHkEcG9zAzEEc2 VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0JvZHlUZW1wQXNzZW1ibHk-;_ylg=X3oDMTNibjJrZTM3BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDMzhjNmZkYTEtNTE5ZC0zYTBiLWIzYTgtN2I1MjNmYm YxYjdhBHBzdGNhdANvcmlnaW5hbHN8dGhlZW52b3kEcHQDc3Rv cnlwYWdlBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3) Here we find the quote amongst the authors commentary.


North Korea's military vowed in its statement to begin "special actions" soon against the government and conservative media companies that would "reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."

The article claims this statement came from "the state-run Korean Central News Agency and attributed to the Korean People's Army's Supreme Command".

So it does not actually provide a quote saying it will turn South Korea into ash in 4 minutes. It says "rat like groups"and "the bases" or what "special actions" mean. The context is not given. Nor do they provide any analysis to link the threat of destroying "rat like groups" to actually mean South Korea. Rat like groups could mean groups within DPRK.

If a state agency made such a threat, none of the articles to me appear to be able to quote this verbatim. What they rely on then is the common held biases and ignorance of their readers to convert the blanks into xenophobic propaganda. The great power of the propaganda machine is that the targets will do most of the work.

[Leftsolidarity]

You both tell me what the DPRK statement was? I will tell you from the articles provided what appears to me as the DPRK statement.

In this article written by Dylan Stableford (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/author/dylan-stableford/) Dylan Stableford for "the envoy" with reporting from Ron Recinto Stableford states "North Korea's military vowed a new and unusually specific threat to its neighbors, saying it would reduce South Korea "to ashes" (http://news.yahoo.com/nkorean-military-warns-special-actions-soon-110332750.html;_ylt=AiR9o95KpE33rx5yNd0NpH_yWed_;_ ylu=X3oDMTFoNjRmYmZuBG1pdANCbG9nIEJvZHkEcG9zAzEEc2 VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0JvZHlUZW1wQXNzZW1ibHk-;_ylg=X3oDMTNibjJrZTM3BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDMzhjNmZkYTEtNTE5ZC0zYTBiLWIzYTgtN2I1MjNmYm YxYjdhBHBzdGNhdANvcmlnaW5hbHN8dGhlZW52b3kEcHQDc3Rv cnlwYWdlBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3) in less than four minutes."

It quotes another article as a source for this supposed threat. That article quoted can be found here. (http://news.yahoo.com/nkorean-military-warns-special-actions-soon-110332750.html;_ylt=AiR9o95KpE33rx5yNd0NpH_yWed_;_ ylu=X3oDMTFoNjRmYmZuBG1pdANCbG9nIEJvZHkEcG9zAzEEc2 VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0JvZHlUZW1wQXNzZW1ibHk-;_ylg=X3oDMTNibjJrZTM3BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDMzhjNmZkYTEtNTE5ZC0zYTBiLWIzYTgtN2I1MjNmYm YxYjdhBHBzdGNhdANvcmlnaW5hbHN8dGhlZW52b3kEcHQDc3Rv cnlwYWdlBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3) Here we find the quote amongst the authors commentary.



The article claims this statement came from "the state-run Korean Central News Agency and attributed to the Korean People's Army's Supreme Command".

So it does not actually provide a quote saying it will turn South Korea into ash in 4 minutes. It says "rat like groups"and "the bases" or what "special actions" mean. The context is not given. Nor do they provide any analysis to link the threat of destroying "rat like groups" to actually mean South Korea. Rat like groups could mean groups within DPRK.

If a state agency made such a threat, none of the articles to me appear to be able to quote this verbatim. What they rely on then is the common held biases and ignorance of their readers to convert the blanks into xenophobic propaganda. The great power of the propaganda machine is that the targets will do most of the work.

I'm not denying that their words could have been misrepresented (you can usually be sure they have been) but even if it is what you said, I still don't think it was a great move on the part of the DPRK.

Apparently, though, if I'm at all critical (even a tiny little bit), I'm not a socialist.

Cool, you go praise everything the DPRK says and does and be a "socialist". I'm going to continue to support the DPRK against imperialism while still forming my own thoughts.

[Ocean Seal]

He says shit like this all the time and by he I mean he and his father. Its time to relax, chances are there is nothing that will change because of these statements. Could there be a war (a real one)? Possibly? Who knows, tensions have always been high.

[ColonelCossack]

yes, war is inevitable between capitalist regimes. but war does not mean socialist revolution and is to be fought against as a symptom of capitalism. it most often means death for the working classes of all involved countries. especially in this case, as revolution as an outcome of war is generally in the defeated country. not the victorious country. America would obviously be the victor, and North Korea would be a crater. that doesn't spell world revolution.

Yeah basically this. War pretty much is an inevitable part of capitalism, because it's one of the ways the bourgeoisie gets new markets when their profits start to fall. However, it's still (obviously) a completely shit state of affairs and war is something that should be completely avoided, especially by leftists. Only the bourgeoisie benefits from war.

War between bourgeois states does not equal class war at all, and there are better ways of gaining class consciousness than by having a war. True, war might alienate the workers to the bourgeoisie to an extent, but that doesn't mean there's gonna be a revolution. If there was a war between N. Korea and the west, the former would be smashed, with the inhabitants going from being oppressed by nothing but a different bourgeoisie to the one that oppresses them now. Everyone in the latter probably wouldn't really care. So in the end nothing would change except a bunch of proles would get blown up.

[scarletghoul]

"reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style." This is the actual quote. Its very disappointing that someone would make a thread using the bullshit quote made up by the western media, without checking the source. Its even more disappointing that it took 4 pages for anyone to point out this error.

The responses here are also very very telling, as it shows not only that most of you unconsciously trust the imperialist media to inform you about things, but also that you misunderstand korea to the extent that you'd believe the dprk would say that. Its a fucking ridiculous thing to say, and for all its faults the DPRK is not stupid and anyone familiar with their ideology would know how uncharacteristic and unbelievable this quotation is.

Anyway can an admin please remove this proven fake quote from the thread title, and replace it with either the real quote or just anything thats not deceitful imperialist bullshit.

Everyone else get your fucking facts straight before you talk about these things.

...thanks

[Grenzer]

"reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style." This is the actual quote. Its very disappointing that someone would make a thread using the bullshit quote made up by the western media, without checking the source. Its even more disappointing that it took 4 pages for anyone to point out this error.

The responses here are also very very telling, as it shows not only that most of you unconsciously trust the imperialist media to inform you about things, but also that you misunderstand korea to the extent that you'd believe the dprk would say that. Its a fucking ridiculous thing to say, and for all its faults the DPRK is not stupid and anyone familiar with their ideology would know how uncharacteristic and unbelievable this quotation is.

Anyway can an admin please remove this proven fake quote from the thread title, and replace it with either the real quote or just anything thats not deceitful imperialist bullshit.

Everyone else get your fucking facts straight before you talk about these things.

...thanks

It's weird how most Maoists praise the DRPK and everything it does.

You basically whine anytime someone uses a source other than the the North Korean propaganda machine. So you think we should only believe information we get from the DPRK itself, the same source that said bears were mourning over Kim Jong-Il's death? Grow up.

It's one thing to defend North Korea from imperialism, but that's not really what people like you are doing. You make it a holy crusade to defend the regime's reputation from the smallest insult. Difficult to see what you're doing here aside from being a tankie and dragging the reputation of communism further through the mud.

[Hiero]

It's weird how most Maoists praise the DRPK and everything it does.

You basically whine anytime someone uses a source other than the the North Korean propaganda machine. So you think we should only believe information we get from the DPRK itself, the same source that said bears were mourning over Kim Jong-Il's death? Grow up.

It's one thing to defend North Korea from imperialism, but that's not really what people like you are doing. You make it a holy crusade to defend the regime's reputation from the smallest insult. Difficult to see what you're doing here aside from being a tankie and dragging the reputation of communism further through the mud.


What are talking about! This is elementary level media analysis for fucks suck.

What is amazing is that you say "You basically whine anytime someone uses a source other than the the North Korean propaganda machine. So you think we should only believe information we get from the DPRK itself,"

That is excactly where the article sources the quote, it used a DPRK statement and purposefully misrepresented it through unneccassary commentary.

I am just amazed at how exstensive the propaganda machine for war really is. When we point out the fallacies in a article people in their incredible naivity say "yeah but, they should not have said thoos things" and you're just a DPRK support". Our criticism of war propangada is taken as pro-DPRK statement.

This is what anti-war activist suffered after 9/11. Any criticism of media bias was taken as pro-terrorist stance (whatever that means), and you are all doing the excact same thing here.



I'm not denying that their words could have been misrepresented

Actually you are because:


but even if it is what you said, I still don't think it was a great move on the part of the DPRK.

What move was that? You don't even understand, what does "reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."

Tell me what that means, please explain the quote. I don't know what rat like groups are I don't know who they are talking about, or what methods and means they refer to?

And really explain how it was not a great move, behind using a yahoo news website. Tell me the negative effect, what is the ROK militaries response, what are they are saying in parliament. Tell what the real concrete effect is from these statements. Because I have no idea, and I doubt you do.


I'm going to continue to support the DPRK against imperialism while still forming my own thoughts.

They are not your thoughts.

[Rafiq]

Americans and British people share a common language and heritage.

and as far as culture, North and South Korea have very different cultures.

you're confused how there are two Korean nations?

http://i.infoplease.com/images/mnkorea.gif

that is how. I don't see what there is to be confused about.

most Koreans want the Korean peninsula unified. on the condition that it is under their respective bourgeois governments.

it's a good discussion.

1. I don't think you know what LS means by a Nation. It certainly isn't defined by borders or an official state.

2. I doubt North Korean masses want a unified peninsula under their state's terms.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Pretty Flaco]

kim jong un is just flexing his new muscles.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Leftsolidarity]

Actually you are because:



Ummm.... actually no I'm not....



What move was that? You don't even understand, what does "reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, (or) in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style."

Tell me what that means, please explain the quote. I don't know what rat like groups are I don't know who they are talking about, or what methods and means they refer to?



If you want to play dumb about acting like you don't know what they mean by that, fine. Most people assume they are talking about the ROK.

I don't even need to completely understand to know what that refers to, to say that I don't think it was a great statement to make. That statement makes the DPRK look bad. If you don't agree that's fine. That's how I view it and that's how a lot of people are taking it and since it's a publically released statement, it kind of matters how the public takes it.



And really explain how it was not a great move, behind using a yahoo news website. Tell me the negative effect, what is the ROK militaries response, what are they are saying in parliament. Tell what the real concrete effect is from these statements. Because I have no idea, and I doubt you do.





Less sympathy towards the DPRK and makes them look aggressive. That's why I think it wasn't a great statement.


They are not your thoughts.

Interesting.

[China studen]

I still can't figure out how saying things of this nature will be at all beneficial to them.


When people repeatedly provocative to you, and you do not make a solemn warning, would you more harm than good.

[China studen]

Obvious sign of weakness. The NK regime is on it's deathbed.

Idiot imperialist lackeys!

Your host for over 60 years has been barking: "North Korea will collapse". I do not understand half a century has passed, how do you then idiot?

[scarletghoul]

You basically whine anytime someone uses a source other than the the North Korean propaganda machine.
When the issue at hand is precisely the words used in north korean propaganda, then yes, obviously north korean propaganda is going to be more correct because its the fucking first hand source lol. This is so ridiculous, we're not even talking about some ambiguous fact on the ground, we're just talking about a simple 'quote' reported on a news site, which it turns out is completely different to the quote in the article that they link to as a source. There is no room to dispute this without you being completely delusional.

Another example: If I linked to an article that claims that Karl Marx's the Communist Manifesto opens with the line "Comrades we must kill millions of people in order to build utopia!", and someone responded saying that I was incorrect, using the Communist Manifesto as their source, do you think it would be sensible for me to say "you basically whine anytime someone uses a source other than communist propaganda" ? Its exactly the same logic. and the context isn't even that far off either.

[Hiero]

If you want to play dumb about acting like you don't know what they mean by that, fine. Most people assume they are talking about the ROK.

That majority consensus would not prove it to true, rather it proves how embedded imperialist progranda and ideaology is. Imperialist and counter-revolutionary propaganda works s to demonise the enemy so much that anything can be twisted and turned and then it normalises the violence of the counter-revolutionaries. I can only advise you read some of Noam Chomky's work, try Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media.



That's how I view it and that's how a lot of people are taking it and since it's a publically released statement, it kind of matters how the public takes it.

No it doesn't. DPRK is not runing in a popularity contest, releasing these statements is aimed at reducing agression from the ROK. In Korean politics it can have the opposite effect that you have in mind. Public opinion does not matter in this situation, the opinions of the ROK military does.

And since when did the left become PR consultants? It is not a very critical direction.

[Yazman]

As far as changing the title goes, I'm happy to do it but only on the condition that Brospierre (the topic creator) wants the change.