Consumerism/Materialsim

[Comrade Ceausescu]

I believe this was one of the reasons for the overthrow of socialism.People became to longing for the decadent western goods.This was especially true in East Germany.

[The Children of the Revolution]

This is undoubtedly true. The West (especially the US) pumped HUGE amounts of capital into West Germany. This was no more than materialist propaganda, but it worked. East Germans saw the contrast between their standard of living under Communism, and the standard of living of West Germans under the Free Market. They could claim the moral high ground for a while (Righteous Proletariat and such like), but eventually became angry. If Communism was so good, why couldn't they get a pair of shoes?

It is correct to say that consumerism and materialism are largely a product of Western Capitalism. But the Soviet Union had other problems too. The focus on heavy industry (especially under Stalin) and high military expenditure, combined with the fact that Nazism had accounted for the deaths of millions of Russians, made East Germany particularly austere. International trade was limited, and the goods that were produced often went to the corrupt Party leadership first.

Plus, the USSR was not a Marxist state - quite evidently.

The need for goods is natural; we would find it hard to live without shoes, for example. But consumerism and materialism - the desire for better and better luxaries - is decadent (good word) and wrong. As such, it must be discouraged.

[Se7en]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 5 2003, 08:25 PM
But consumerism and materialism - the desire for better and better luxaries - is decadent (good word) and wrong. As such, it must be discouraged.
I completely agree, but decades of decadence will be hard to reverse. The culture of the united states IS consumerism. One thing I always wonder is how we can possibly reverse this.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Im not materialistic at all, all I want is my computer and my guitar.

I beleive there is no corolation between wealth and quality or life.

Take the UK for example.

Over the years the people have become richer (financialy) but the people dont feel safe to leave there homes at night, children cant play in the park etc etc.

UK life now is shit, yes we have more money but I for one (and family for 3) are not happier.

We now live in Cyprus. The crime is so much lower. Its safe to go out when its dark.

[redstar2000]

I question the use of the word "decadent" in this context. If you go all the way back to the beginnings of the United States, I think you would find that while they were certainly a lot poorer than we are, they were just as corrupt and greedy. At least that is true for the upper classes whose views are preserved.

Modern "consumerism" actually has little to do with the usefulness of material goods. We have been indoctrinated with the idea that our "status" and even our "identity" is--somehow--tied up with what we buy.

We don't even have to actually use it...just the fact that we "have it" somehow "elevates" us in the eyes of others and even in our own eyes.

I don't think there's anything "wrong" about wanting a material good for its usefulness. I'm told that some 2 or 3 percent of people who buy SUVs actually use them to haul stuff to and from remote, offroad locations, etc.

But everyone else who buys one is "making a fashion statement"...and a particularly stupid one at that.

How many people buy expensive athletic shoes who not only do not run but would resent having to walk more than half a block?

Everyone would like to have a clean, safe, convenient, and comfortable place to live. A 6-bedroom "starter-castle" in a gated "community" is not required to meet those needs.

I think the best way to attack "consumerism" is not to dwell on the material goods as such...but on the ideological purposes those goods purport to "satisfy".

Our message to "westerners" ought to be: You are not what you buy!

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[Comrade Ceausescu]

I question the use of the word "decadent" in this context. If you go all the way back to the beginnings of the United States, I think you would find that while they were certainly a lot poorer than we are, they were just as corrupt and greedy. At least that is true for the upper classes whose views are preserved.

Modern "consumerism" actually has little to do with the usefulness of material goods. We have been indoctrinated with the idea that our "status" and even our "identity" is--somehow--tied up with what we buy.

We don't even have to actually use it...just the fact that we "have it" somehow "elevates" us in the eyes of others and even in our own eyes.

I don't think there's anything "wrong" about wanting a material good for its usefulness. I'm told that some 2 or 3 percent of people who buy SUVs actually use them to haul stuff to and from remote, offroad locations, etc.

But everyone else who buys one is "making a fashion statement"...and a particularly stupid one at that.

How many people buy expensive athletic shoes who not only do not run but would resent having to walk more than half a block?

Everyone would like to have a clean, safe, convenient, and comfortable place to live. A 6-bedroom "starter-castle" in a gated "community" is not required to meet those needs.

I think the best way to attack "consumerism" is not to dwell on the material goods as such...but on the ideological purposes those goods purport to "satisfy".

Our message to "westerners" ought to be: You are not what you buy!

Good post.Though I don't quite agree with it.I believe my use of the word decadence is appropriate.Many people ask me,"Chris,why do you think Amercia is like the Roman Empire"?Well,there are two main reasons:Decadence was (at least to me) the reason the Roman Empire fell.They became too into having material things and what not.I agree,it does not always matter if you use it or not,its that you have it.To me,this is decadence.Another reason I say is,the Roman state was based on good,democratic ideals,but it became corrupt to the point where things like the Senate or other large organazations did not matter.It was a dictatorship.Does this remind you of the Bush adminastration?Decadence and corruption,if not a revolution before,well eventually top this empire of imperialism.So I guess it would actually be a good thing in America if it actually topples it.But,it is destructive in a socialist society.

[redstar2000]

Many people ask me,"Chris,why do you think America is like the Roman Empire"?Well,there are two main reasons: Decadence was (at least to me) the reason the Roman Empire fell.

Well, that's not really true. The "myth of the decadent Romans" has enjoyed transient popularity from time to time...usually in periods in which the authorities are appealing for "sacrifice" in the face of some "common threat".

"Don't be like the Romans", they tell us, "or the outcome will be catastrophic."

This is not the place to discuss the history of Rome...but, believe me, the causes of its decline and fall were complex and material...and had very little to do with "decadence". In fact, Rome was just as "decadent" while it was rising as it was when it was declining.


Another reason I say is, the Roman state was based on good, democratic ideals, but it became corrupt to the point where things like the Senate or other large organizations did not matter.

No, Rome was always extremely corrupt. But so has America always been, so that may serve as an adequate comparison. The Roman Senate consisted of an oligarchy of landed aristocrats. So was the U.S. congress from 1790 to 1860; then the capitalists took over and showed what corruption could really be.

The Roman republic had a "wealth-weighted" franchise...the wealthier you were, the more your vote counted. "Democracy" in the Greek sense of the word never existed in Rome.

One area where the Roman Empire and the American Empire can legitimately be compared is in the personalities of the emperors.

Was the "genial" Clinton our Claudius? Is George II our Nero or Caligula? :lol:

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[DEPAVER]

Refusing to participate in crass consumerism is a very important tool in resisting the status quo, the advance of capital and the environmental problems it creates.

The military-industrial complex is fueled by a capitalist economy, which is dependent upon us participating in it. So, quit participating!

The current meme tells us we must "fight" to "oppose" that which we seek to change. We have to "work" to elect those politicians who promise to support our beliefs. We must support our military and police who are defending our rights. We do so much fighting and supporting and defending and working, we never have a chance to do any changing. So nothing changes.

We must become the change.

What are the characteristics of our society that we seek to change?

Competitiveness. Be cooperative. Stop working in a competitive job. Do work that nurtures cooperation.

Hierarchy: Find meaningful work in a cooperative, community workplace. If you can't find it, create it. Support local self-reliance, local self-government, local autonomy. Support unions and cooperatives. Engage in
consensus decision making.

Greed: Simplify. Discover the joy and freedom of making less money. Quit your job and find meaningful work.

Individualism: Join your local neighborhood association, or go door to door and start one. Engage in conversation with your neighbors. Work to find mutual solutions to local problems.

Consumerism: Learn the joy and freedom of owning less. Buy at thrift stores, used book stores, garage sales. Cherish what works well.

Most importantly: Don't worry, be the change. Don't worry that everyone else in your neighborhood, community, state, nation is not changing. Be the change. Let your joy in life shine through. Others will be attracted to your light. Share your experience with those who ask. Watch the change spread.

In this way we don't waste our energy opposing the existing system. We pour our energy into the change as we turn our backs on the system that drains so much energy from us. We release that energy into the creativeprocess of change. We build the new as the old withers and dies.

This sounds like Pollyana-ish aphorisms; that's the old systemwhispering in your ear. I know because I've experienced it myself, right here in the Mississippi River Delta in the United States of America, in the heart of the military-industrial complex. Two great friends, one a masterful teacher, have taught me the joy of a life of simple pleasure, meaningful work, living in community, living in place. They express it in their daily
lives. I am learning and I am trying to bring it to you in words.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Nice post "Depaver" - and a wonderful ideal. But sadly, little more.

Unfortunately, Capitalism in the West has a VERY strong grip on the populace. A shame, but the majority of people ARE greedy and work not only to survive, but to aquire. Possessions, material wealth - these have become measures of success. Unless the whole system follows this "new path", exploitation will continue.

And because of the international nature of capitalism, and the Western exploitation of this, the oppressed and the destitute are actually in the MINORITY. Yes, we are all slaves to wage labour... But I would argue that the majority of people in the West have a more than reasonable standard of living. The real Proletariat lies abroad; this will not change until the attitude of the majority of the West does - or until there is a Marxist led Revolution.

And as long as 3rd or Developing World workers are forced to pick coffee for $1 a day, or work in a sweatshop 80 hours a week, attitudes in the West are unlikely to change. Therefore we must concentrate on promoting Revolution abroad. And the sooner the better - then we can address the massive inequalities of the World.

[redstar2000]

We must become the change.

A noble sentiment.


Be cooperative. Stop working in a competitive job. Do work that nurtures cooperation.

Quite rare in capitalist society.


Find meaningful work in a cooperative, community workplace. If you can't find it, create it.

By all means...but don't be surprised if you cannot do either. Capitalist society is a hostile environment for such ventures.


Engage in consensus decision making.

On the basis of personal experience, I must disagree. I found it to be a useful manipulative tool for "leaders" who do not wish to be seen as exercising power but who nevertheless wish to actually exercise power.


Discover the joy and freedom of making less money.

Here no effort on our part is required. Capitalism will take care of that "problem" all by itself. In the coming decades, we will make less money...and work harder for what we do make.

Don't know about that "joy and freedom" stuff, though. Especially when the weather turns cold and you can't make your rent.


Join your local neighborhood association, or go door to door and start one. Engage in conversation with your neighbors. Work to find mutual solutions to local problems.

In advanced capitalist societies, there is little that local groups can accomplish. "Local problems" are not really local at all...they are symptoms of national and international capitalism.

It would serve little purpose, for example, to organize my neighbors to struggle against price-gouging by the gas & electric monopoly...certainly a serious problem. Those prices are set on Wall Street and the people who set them are well "insulated" from popular discontent.

A massive revolutionary movement on a national scale might "scare" the prices down to a more reasonable level...it's difficult to see what else would have much effect.

Local autonomy, under capitalism, is generally confined to trivia...to things that from the capitalist viewpoint are too marginal to matter.


Learn the joy and freedom of owning less. Buy at thrift stores, used book stores, garage sales. Cherish what works well.

Yes, I endorse this, perhaps because I do it myself. I only buy something new if I simply can't find a used one that works.

And I don't even buy very much used stuff...I don't like the feeling of being burdened by possessions.

Also, I'm pretty fucking poor. :(


In this way we don't waste our energy opposing the existing system. We pour our energy into the change as we turn our backs on the system that drains so much energy from us. We release that energy into the creative process of change. We build the new as the old withers and dies.

We can "turn our backs on the system" but that doesn't necessarily mean that the system will "turn its back on us". Successful co-ops, for example, become targets of privatization.

History suggests that aging ruling classes do not surrender their power without serious struggle. It may or may not be violent, but the threat of violence is always in the background.


This sounds like Pollyanna-ish aphorisms...

Yeah, sorta. Some people manage to do it, granted. But, to be honest, I find such folks to be a little frustrating to be around very much.

They seem kind of...smug, somehow.

Like people who are "saved".

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[The Children of the Revolution]

They seem kind of...smug, somehow.

Like people who are "saved".


LOL, RedStar, you REALLY hate us!!!



Also, I'm pretty fucking poor. :(


Hahaha, and you're bitter!



It would serve little purpose, for example, to organize my neighbors to struggle against price-gouging by the gas & electric monopoly...certainly a serious problem. Those prices are set on Wall Street and the people who set them are well "insulated" from popular discontent.


I think the point "Depaver" was trying to make (though correct me if I'm wrong) is that we should be distancing ourselves from Capitalism, not trying to influence it by popular struggle. In this way, with less people involved in the Capitalist system, its influence would diminish. I outlined my approval for this ideal above, but also suggested that despite its nobility, it is unlikely to work in the modern West - people are too greedy.

Hallelujah brother!!! Repent and be saved!!! :P

[redstar2000]

LOL, RedStar, you REALLY hate us!!!

Hate is probably too strong a word in this context, but I can't deny a distinct aversion. Social interactions with the "saved" do have the quality of "taking a shower while wearing a raincoat".


Hahaha, and you're bitter!

Indeed I am...as would anyone be who reflected upon the fate of those more or less at the bottom of class society's food chain.

I closed off the bedroom in my small apartment and am living now in the livingroom-kitchen...hoping to save on the gas bill this winter.

Perhaps global warming will help me out; I know your "Lord" won't.

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[The Children of the Revolution]

Perhaps global warming will help me out; I know your "Lord" won't.


Hey, how do you know? In all seriousness, try it! No, the Lord won't magically heat your appartment - but he WILL improve your outlook on life. Hey, i'm a student for crying out loud. I live in one room. And i'll be £15,000 in debt after three years if statistics are anything to go by... Sodding Government. But I'm happy! And that's really all that matters...

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 10:46 PM
Take the UK for example.

Over the years the people have become richer (financialy) but the people dont feel safe to leave there homes at night, children cant play in the park etc etc.

UK life now is shit, yes we have more money but I for one (and family for 3) are not happier.

We now live in Cyprus. The crime is so much lower. Its safe to go out when its dark.
You cannot go out at night without there being a big risk you will spend the rest of the night in a hospital after being brutally assaulted. I have been attacked many times and its terrible. I still go out at night hoping that I do not get seriously or fatally injured. I know many people who have been the victims of this brutal violence in the UK, having often been knocked unconscious and then savagely beaten.

I work in a hospital and every night I work I see people coming in with injuries sustained from street violence. A typical example is that recently a 20 year-old man and his girlfriend were attacked, the man had to have metal joints and plates replacing bones in his jaw now. Often people have had a bottle smashed over their head or been stabbed. Many people knocked to the floor and brutally kicked in the face and other parts of the body to give them severe injuries.

It is worse in some areas than others. I live in a city which was selected by a journalist as the most boring city in the UK, he also said it was one of the worst places to live because of street crime, he was attacked and beaten up when he visited the city for his investigation.

Concerning children's parks, councils are very reluctant to build parks this year because of the vandalism that they attract, it has become very expensive to repair them. Vandalism in general costs the nation vast sums of money every year. Our society must become much more disciplined.

Voters are primarily concerned with the economy, so crime is not a priority for any government.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

think its bad there?dc has the number two crime rate in america.

[redstar2000]

But I'm happy! And that's really all that matters...

So is a "junkie" after a "fix".

It ought to be possible, at least in principle, to "cure" heroin addiction.

But only the "believer" can cure himself.

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[The Children of the Revolution]

But only the "believer" can cure himself.


Cure myself of what comrade? Cure myself of hapiness?

Go back to being a "Godless Communist", and be miserable until the onset of Revolution? (which could be a long, long time...)

No thanks... Besides, a Heroin "fix" is a temporary solution. My hapiness is eternal!

Peace and Love, man!

[redstar2000]

Cure myself of happiness?

Go back to being a "Godless Communist", and be miserable until the onset of Revolution? (which could be a long, long time...)

No thanks...My happiness is eternal!

Peace and Love, man!

See what I mean when I used the word smug?

War and Hate, man!

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[MysticArcher]

good post Depraver, most of that is actually stuff I do, or should try to do

"Learn the joy and freedom of owning less. Buy at thrift stores, used book stores, garage sales. Cherish what works well."

yeah, as a college student I can understand that,
my roommate has a ton of useless junk, but when I think about it I'm more content with my situation, having fewer more useful things, than he does

[DEPAVER]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 8 2003, 02:32 AM
Nice post "Depaver" - and a wonderful ideal. But sadly, little more.

Unfortunately, Capitalism in the West has a VERY strong grip on the populace. A shame, but the majority of people ARE greedy and work not only to survive, but to aquire. Possessions, material wealth - these have become measures of success. Unless the whole system follows this "new path", exploitation will continue.


So, what's your proposal for the United States? What should activists be doing or preparing to do?

[DEPAVER]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2003, 03:01 AM
most of that is actually stuff I do, or should try to do


yeah, as a college student I can understand that,
my roommate has a ton of useless junk, but when I think about it I'm more content with my situation, having fewer more useful things, than he does
You're way ahead of the game!

I didn't learn these lessons until 30, after 10 years as a REPUBLICAN AND A CORPORATE EXECUTIVE.

Man, if I had only had YOUR wisdom when I was 20!!!

[MysticArcher]

"Man, if I had only had YOUR wisdom when I was 20!!!" Depaver

yeah, I'm only 18.

it wasn't really something I thought about, it was just a natural consequence of not having money and seeing people with money acting stupid and being miserable, I realized wow, having stuff doesn't make you happy

unless of couse it's necessary items, but that's obvious

[The Children of the Revolution]

"Cure myself of what comrade? Cure myself of hapiness?
Go back to being a "Godless Communist", and be miserable until the onset of Revolution? (which could be a long, long time...)
No thanks... Besides, a Heroin "fix" is a temporary solution. My hapiness is eternal!
Peace and Love, man!"
----------------------
"See what I mean when I used the word smug?
War and Hate, man!"


Ha ha ha ha ha!! You are a constant source of amusement!! :D :D :D

I am happy because I believe, yes. Not smug, happy! Join me, comrades!
Undergo a Revolution in your own mind!
Let Jesus' Love defeat mind-numbing atheism! :P

Peace and Love, man!

[peaccenicked]

"Happiness is to live for other people"
Leo Tolstoy

Consumerism is and ideological form akin to the petty bourgeois mentality or crude materialism.
Now where is that Black Eyed Peas single............"Where is the Love?"