cubas economic problems

[Monty Cantsin]

How has globalization affected Cuba’s economy? Well to understand this better we have to know what set the stage for the current state of Cuba. We have to ask questions like. before 1959 who controlled the Cuba economy? After 59 how did Cuba outlast the embargo? What is the Cuban way of heath and education? After 89 how did Cuba deal with the loss of assistance form the soviet bloc? When we know all this then we can ask ourselves, how has globalization affected Cuba in current times? What did the September 11 attacks mean for Cuba? What is the Cubans economy geared towards? And what does overseas investment mean to Cuba?

Before Castro come to power in 1959 Cuba was owned by the U.S.A 60% of the country including the rail network, telecommunication and also 51% of the sugar cane owned by the united fruit company and the Rockefeller family. There was also a great amount of tourism 300,000 a year from the U.S.A meaning that the economic gap between Havana and the surrounding areas was great.

After 1959 a socialist government took power. They emplaced strategies such as nationalizing big business and then small business this meaning that all goods and services where run and provided by the government. With the U.S. embargo in place Cuba lost its strongest trading partner. Leading Cuba to find help else were. This help came from the soviet bloc which gave assistance to the value of 6 billon a year half of the totally given by the Soviet Union. The bloc helped in other ways supplying Cuba with oil and light machinery and buying there sugar at an inflated price.

Another strategy adopted by the Castro government was starting universal education and health care. One of the first steps to becoming a developed country is having a high Literacy rate, Cuba having 97% of the total population over 15 being able to read. This literacy rate is the highest in Latin America. Also with the universal health care this keeps the people fit and in good shape for the labour force.

After the reduction of assistance in 1989 from the U.S.S.R. and then there fall in 1991. The country suffered greatly. This change leads Cuba on a decline because of its size it doesn’t have the population to be self sufficient unlike china, they only number 11 million. This decline went from 1990 till 1995 and now is on the path of slow regrowth. To combat this lost of income they started to Promote tourism on a large scale with joint projects with overseas company’s to build or improve resorts around Havana. Also trying to diversify there exports and put them through a value chain.

The current state of Cuba? Unemployment rate is 4.1% and Life expectancy at birth
total population: 76.8 years, also Cuba has a slow growing G.D.P. growing around 1.0 a year this peaked in 1996 at 7.8% which is quite good seeing that the world average is 2% per year. Cuba has a GDP of $17.3 billion meaning that it relies on foreign investment. The three main ways this happens is joint ventures with overseas companies, tourism, and money being sent in by overseas families to there relatives this alone accounts for 1 billion a year.



What did the September 11 attacks mean for Cuba? Well Cuba relies heavily on tourism providing overseas currencies. When the September 11 attacks happened consumer conference in travel declined because of the fear of terrorism. This trend of low consumer conference in travel meant a decline of economic activity because of a domino affect with meant there was a reduction of capital that otherwise would have circulated generating business activity which is state sector 76%, non-state sector 24%. This is a reason why overseas investment is needed to increase circulation of capital stimulating the economy. This is a dilemma or catch 22 for Castro because none will invest if they have no interest or returns meaning that the government will have to free up enterprise for foreign companies.

What is the Cuban economy geared towards? Well I can say without much argument that Fidel is not an economist, the country is still geared towards one crop sugar with is subject to radical price change because of its availability and nature as a raw product with no added value. When most developed or high income economies focus on services and/or secondary industries. This means that Cuba is in a state of transition between developing to becoming a newly developed economy.

What does overseas investment mean for Cuba? Foreign investment is very important to Cuba because in disperses capital into the economy. Thus increasing economic activity, the government’s strategies are trying to attracted investment and tourism. One of the main problems with this is overseas companies have to pay Cuban workers $250 per month (the workers only receive 250 Paso works out to $10 per month), this would be quite small for a developed country but in standing with other underdeveloped country puts them at a disadvantage. At this moment the government is working with a Spanish company on a resort. Putting it’s self in the position, that when the embargo is dropped they will be able to take the influxes of tourism. There are more problems facing Cuba with there current account or balance of payments being in the red because Imports are $3 billion and Exports are $1.4 billion.

Over all there strategies of health and education are greatly helping the human development in Cuba. With attracting foreign investment and tourism this a good strategy to make up the shortfall left by the soviet removing aid. But the main problem they face is distributing surpluses wealth/ capital so they don’t have the say problem with people in Havana wealthy and in the rest of the country poorer. This is to keep in with there morals or beliefs. My advice to Cuba would be to develop there service sector and secondary industries so they can participate in the global economy at a greater rate.





So what are you're comments, how should Fidel face these problems of attracting overseas investment but also distributing surpluses wealth? (to prevent what was happening before 1959)

[LuZhiming]

I might like to comment on this later, but first I want to say, great post. Second, what is your source for this information?

[Monty Cantsin]

Thanks for likening my post, but as for where I sourced my information I got it of some web sites and books. But first I would like to say it’s hard to get a accurate information because the Cuba government only gives out the information they wont to give out and when they wont to. So most of the information is old or estimated (not by me), so ill have a look at my post latter and date it all.

As for the web sites I can’t find the links that I was using but I have saved the articles in word so if you won’t them I can post them. Also I used revolutionary Cuba by a Mr. Cannon.

[Monty Cantsin]

GDP: purchasing power parity—$17.3 billion (1998 est.)
GDP—real growth rate: 1.2% (1998 est.)
GDP—per capita: purchasing power parity—$1,560 (1998 est.)
GDP—composition by sector:
agriculture: 7.4%
industry: 36.5%
services: 56.1% (1997 est.)
Population below poverty line: NA%
Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: NA%
highest 10%: NA%
Inflation rate (consumer prices): NA%
Labor force: 4.5 million economically active population (1996 est.)
note: state sector 76%, non-state sector 24% (1996 est.)
Labor force—by occupation: services and government 30%, industry 22%, agriculture 20%, commerce 11%, construction 10%, transportation and communications 7% (June 1990)
Unemployment rate: 6.8% (1997 est.)
Budget:
revenues: $12.3 billion
expenditures: $13 billion , including capital expenditures of $NA (1998 est.)
Industries: sugar, petroleum, food, tobacco, textiles, chemicals, paper and wood products, metals (particularly nickel), cement, fertilizers, consumer goods, agricultural machinery
Industrial production growth rate: 6% (1995 est.)
Electricity—production: 14.1 billion kWh (1997)
Electricity—production by source:
fossil fuel: 98.96%
hydro: 1.04%
nuclear: 0%
other: 0% (1996)
Electricity—consumption: 14.1 billion kWh (1997)
Electricity—exports: 0 kWh (1996)
Electricity—imports: 0 kWh (1996)
Agriculture—products: sugarcane, tobacco, citrus, coffee, rice, potatoes, beans; livestock
Exports: $1.4 billion (f.o.b., 1998 est.)
Exports—commodities: sugar, nickel, tobacco, shellfish, medical products, citrus, coffee
Exports—partners: Russia 27%, Canada 18%, Spain 8% (1998 est.)
Imports: $3 billion (c.i.f., 1998 est.)
Imports—commodities: petroleum, food, machinery, chemicals
Imports—partners: Spain 17%, France 9%, Canada 9% (1998 est.)
Debt—external: $10.1 billion (convertible currency, 1997); another $20 billion owed to Russia (1997)
Economic aid—recipient: $46 million (1997 est.)
Currency: 1 Cuban peso (Cu$) = 100 centavos
Exchange rates: Cuban pesos (Cu$) per US$1—1.0000 (nonconvertible, official rate, linked to the US dollar)
Fiscal year: calendar year

thats were i got most of my state from and also http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...ok/geos/cu.html (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html) which is more up to date but mostly estimated. so you can look at the dates nexts to the facts to see were i sourced them from.

[Crusader 4 da truth]

Cuba: Common sense analysis

Cuba is a complete failure as a nation state that is readily apparent to anyone with an open mind who is willing to think critically. Despite this many of you in this forum choice to deny this fact, I’m not sure why. It hurts your case if you can’t be honest and admit that Castro is repressive dictator and his methods are no different then that of any other communist state. This includes torture of political dissidents, threats and intimidation of family members; the use of murder, and starvation as a political tool and support of narco trafficking and terror. Again for some reason many of you choice to turn a blind eye to this and accuse me of spreading US government propaganda. We’ll fine don’t believe me Cuba’s human rights abuses are well documented. You need only go to the many LIBREAL human rights organizations for their information. It all chronicles the same awful tragedies. Human Rights Watch (a left wing socialist outfit) has published their 1999 report on Cuba on the web

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

Its very well organized so you jump around to the relevant topics her is just a snippet from the section titled Repression of Dissidents,

“Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections, writing letters to the government, reporting on political or economic developments, speaking to international reporters, or advocating the release of political prisoners”

Again you can check out Amnesty international’s report (another left wing organization)

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/AMR250...f=COUNTRIESCUBA

This organization is very good at focusing world attention to specific cases where injustice is done.

Last but not least let’s not forget every liberals favorite bureaucracy the United Nations, in December of 1996 the general assembly voted to …
“…called on the Cuban Government to release people detained for political activities.” (the vote was 62 to 25).

Once again in april of 1999 the council in a resolution which was adopted by a roll-call vote of 21 in favour and 20 against, with 1 abstention voted to…
“expressed its concern about the adoption of the Law for the Protection of National Independence and Economy of Cuba, and regretted the other steps taken by the Government which were inconsistent with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other relevant human-rights instruments; called upon the Cuban Government to ensure respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms”

Coming from the United Nations that’s practically a triad!

If you are intellectually honest and all of this bothers you there is something you can do the World Organization Against Torture has all the contact information for key personal in the Cuban government you can urge them to adopt a more transparent form of government.

http://www.omct.org/displaydocument.asp?Do...453&Language=EN

[Monty Cantsin]

Crusader 4 da truth you have cursed straight past the true nature of the topic. I am talking about the economics of Cuba not the human rights. You have also subjectively assumed that I support Fidel’s treatment of political rivals. Which if you’ve read anything I’ve written on Fidel’s government in other posts you will know my view’s, so if you wont to talk to me about cubes human rights record, write to me in a post about human rights not economics.

So in this post instead of just saying ”Cuba is a complete failure as a nation state” back it up some objective economic facts, then we can say your name fits your nature because now you seem very hypercritical and bias not looking at the big picture and many sources rather changing topics to better suit your whim’s.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Euripidies:While this is a good post, I have to question some of the numbers posted..not by you...but from your sources. I agree that cuba will print whatever and whenever they want so long as it makes them look good. However, one must only travel to cuba (outside the tourist, dollar-areas), to see that unemployment rate you posted is highly inaccurate.

Another thing..cuba can no longer count on exporting sugar anymore. If anything, they're buying more and more sugar from other countries due to their inefficiencies of growing the crop and maintaining the land. My uncle worked in the "Agri" in cuba before he was executed.

I strongly believe that for cuba to pick itself off the economic floor, castro will have to die. This will be enough of a catlyst for other nations to start investing in cuba again. It is well-known that castro does NOT pay off debts and defuncts on them regularly. That is why many countries including the US has refused to deal with him using credit. Cash up front! I know you didn't want me to mention it, but it simply CANNOT be overlooked. His human rights violations play a BIG ROLE on why more countries refuse to deal with cuba.

PS-I'll ask my father what cuba has done to its once grand sugar production. He knows more about this than I do. actually he knows A LOT of the island. Would you like me to ask him anything?

[Alejandro C]

ask your dad if he thinks Cubans are worse off than any other third world country.
ask your dad if cubans have a greater sense of national pride than other latin american countries because of Fidel.
ask your dad why there is overwhelming support for castro in cuba.
ask your dad why a small contingent of anti-casto cubans in miami are controlling the entire US foreign policy to cuba.
ask your dad why the US considers Cuba to be a terrorist state.
ask your dad why cuba is on the human rights commission of the UN while the united states just got kicked off.
ask your dad why every year the UN votes everyone in the world against US and israel to lift the trade embargo.
ask your dad why the US will not lift the embargo until Cuba promises to give its citizens rights that not even people in the US have.
ask your dad if he's proud that cubans own cuba.
ask your dad if Cuba has set a good example of standing up to the US for other latin american countries.
ask your dad why Cuba is struggling so much havesting the sugar.
ask your dad why his son hates a man who has spent every hour of his life for the last fifty years fighting for the cuban people.

[Monty Cantsin]

Unemployment rate you posted is highly inaccurate

The unemployment rate is not what we should be looking at. The unemployment rate only counts the people in work and looking for work, so 4.1% the of work force is still looking for work. What you should look at is the participation rate, how many people out of the total working age is in the workforce. So the county could have participation of 50% meaning that the other haft aren’t working and that 4.1% of that 50% are still looking for work and haven’t given up like the others. But there are also cultural aspects to take into consideration when looking at participation. If the people of that country believe women should not work and stay at home, there participation rate would be much lower.


cuba to pick itself off the economic floor, castro will have to die

At the moment Cuba has 370 joint ventures with overseas companies, mainly from Spain. We have to remember what it was like economical before 1959 and how it was a 3rd world country then and still is but it is making progress none the less.




There the only points I didn’t agree with or wonted to talk about in this thread. Because I won’t to talk about economics of Cuba I will start a new thread for human rights in Cuba. As for questions for your dad ill have a think about it but the ones Alejandro C aren’t that bad though you can see what he thinks about the whole world of issues involving Cuba so maybe some of them should be talked about in other threads. Oh and for cubes sugar problems ill have a look for some stuff on that I haven’t as yet found anything about sugar problems bar what I’ve already posted.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Fair enough. I'll ask him those questions. They seem sarcastic but nonetheless pretty good. But remember, sarcastic or not, YOU asked me to ask HIM those questions. A humble man of modest living that has LIVED before during and AFTER the revolution, so don't tell me afterwards that whatever HE answers is bullshit! You asked, so you'll have to accept his answers like it or not, no matter how much you may disagree with fact!

I'll get back to this post with his answers in about a day or so.

[Alejandro C]

the hell? the answers he gives will be the opinion of a civilian. i don't have to accept them over fact, i'm just interested in the answers. i've talked to quite a few cubans about most of those questions and everyone has different answers.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 11 2003, 05:54 PM
the hell? the answers he gives will be the opinion of a civilian. i don't have to accept them over fact, i'm just interested in the answers. i've talked to quite a few cubans about most of those questions and everyone has different answers.
no, we have to accept the answers, cos totalitarianism is practiced in this thread.. :lol:

[Monty Cantsin]

cs how can we know who you are? we can't so we have to be critical of what you say. other wise you could feed as alot of lies.

[Monty Cantsin]

your takeing a long time to write back cs dont you like the anwsers or something??



(if any one else wonts to comment feel free)

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Crusader 4 da [email protected] 9 2003, 07:36 PM
Cuba: Common sense analysis

Cuba is a complete failure as a nation state that is readily apparent to anyone with an open mind who is willing to think critically. Despite this many of you in this forum choice to deny this fact, I’m not sure why.
Crusader i suggest you star a new thread and post this exact post.
AND yes people on this forum decide they wont believe stalin and Castro violated human rights, and this was admitted by the left-wing socialist human rights group you mentioned.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 08:26 AM





So what are you're comments, how should Fidel face these problems of attracting overseas investment but also distributing surpluses wealth? (to prevent what was happening before 1959)
First of all , i do question those numbers, i believe cuba provides those numbers so that is questionable that all numbers are correct. But thats for another discussion so I will just answer your question.

First this quesiton.

Would bringing foreign investments go against Castro's communist ideals? I mean he did kick out the overseas investment that existed when he took over CUBA.

Now. I think overseas investment should be welcomed, because that is what free trade is all about.

Under Fidel the surplus wealth will not be well distributed, most will go to his own luxuries and into his pocket and those who are in gov. will aslo receive most of that money.
Very little of that money will see the public.

But if im wrong then he should raise everyone's salary.

another question, WHY arent cubans allowed to use the foreign hotels (i mean the hotels that are owned by foreing investors) only tourist can use those hotels, no cubans. I also know that there are certain stores only for tourist whcih the cubans cant shop in, its not like they could anyway, cause they cant afford anything in there anyway.

[Monty Cantsin]

Would bringing foreign investments go against Castro's communist ideals?

now the state still has control over the investments and where the money goes. but most people don’t call Cuba communist they feel it only uses that name or did use that name to get help from the U.S.S.R.


I mean he did kick out the overseas investment that existed when he took over CUBA.

yes he nationalized all big business, which I feel is find before you had capital flight were all the money was heading over seas. also like i said before 60% of Cuba rail telecommunication were owned by the U.S.A. and 51% of the sugar crop meaning that people outside the tourist area of Havana were really really poor.


I think overseas investment should be welcomed, because that is what free trade is all about i think free trade needs to be avoided at all cost so you don’t have the same thing happening with no distribution of wealth.


Under Fidel the surplus wealth will not be well distributed, most will go to his own luxuries and into his pocket and those who are in gov. will aslo receive most of that money.

what information do you have to make that kind of claim Fidel cares about those people so much, I can't believe you could say that even people that are against Fidel so he does care about the people one quote i heard was "his not the kind of dictator with a Swiss bank account".


WHY arent cubans allowed to use the foreign hotels (i mean the hotels that are owned by foreing investors) only tourist can use those hotels, no cubans.

again very good idea its to stop capital flight so the money stays in cuba therefore it can be used for the Cuban people. That’s the same idea with the shops too.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 10:59 PM
WHY arent cubans allowed to use the foreign hotels (i mean the hotels that are owned by foreing investors) only tourist can use those hotels, no cubans. I also know that there are certain stores only for tourist whcih the cubans cant shop in, its not like they could anyway, cause they cant afford anything in there anyway.
Many members of the forum will tell you that they have not been allowed into some hotels in Cuba. Simply because they were not staying there. Explain your second comment, Please supply some GOOD sources too.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 11:19 PM
[ Explain your second comment, Please supply some GOOD sources too.
people that have lived their and visited their.
the one that lived their actually had a brother born their, but since their dad, was from spain. I think he worked in the embassy or with a company im not sure, the point was they lived in cuba for a lot of time.
He went to private shcool used for kids of people who work for international companies that have hotels etc. in cuba.

And i know like 5 or 6 people that have recently visted cuba.
Those are my sources for that.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 20 2003, 11:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 20 2003, 11:26 PM)
[email protected] 20 2003, 11:19 PM
[ Explain your second comment, Please supply some GOOD sources too.
people that have lived their and visited their.
the one that lived their actually had a brother born their, but since their dad, was from spain. I think he worked in the embassy or with a company im not sure, the point was they lived in cuba for a lot of time.
He went to private shcool used for kids of people who work for international companies that have hotels etc. in cuba.

And i know like 5 or 6 people that have recently visted cuba.
Those are my sources for that. [/b]
Funny that, Because all the people that i know that have visited Cuba say nothing but praise of the Island. Secondly, Worms are known to be terible liars.

[el_profe]

Alejandro C: I only know cubans. But I can answer some of your questions.



1.ask your dad if he thinks Cubans are worse off than any other third world country.
2.ask your dad if cubans have a greater sense of national pride than other latin american countries because of Fidel.
3.ask your dad why there is overwhelming support for castro in cuba.
4.ask your dad why a small contingent of anti-casto cubans in miami are controlling the entire US foreign policy to cuba.
5.ask your dad why the US considers Cuba to be a terrorist state.
6.ask your dad why cuba is on the human rights commission of the UN while the united states just got kicked off.
7.ask your dad why every year the UN votes everyone in the world against US and israel to lift the trade embargo.
8.ask your dad why the US will not lift the embargo until Cuba promises to give its citizens rights that not even people in the US have.
9.ask your dad if he&#39;s proud that cubans own cuba.
10.ask your dad if Cuba has set a good example of standing up to the US for other latin american countries.
11.ask your dad why Cuba is struggling so much havesting the sugar.
12.ask your dad why his son hates a man who has spent every hour of his life for the last fifty years fighting for the cuban people.

1. Cubans are worse off than the middle and rich class in 3rd world countries, but they are better of than the poor in 3rd world countries.

2. greater sense of national pride than other latin american countries thanks to fidel? Im not sure Argentinians and mexican&#39;s have the most pride for their countries to the point of annoyance.

3. Overwhelming support for Castro in CUBA? becaue if you dont support him you go to jail. And if you talk about those rallies on the street, eveyrone gets vacation from work to go to those, and you have repercutins if you dont go.

4. Every Cuban in miami is anti-castro, why would they leave otherwise. And their is many cubans in miami, as to the few that control the foreign policy, they just want to be able to go back to cuba.

5. Probably cause its communist and was an ally of the USSR.

6. the HUMan rights commision, look at this report on cuba from the human rights watch webpage.
http://hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

7. the un votes everyone in the world??????

8. Cuase Cuba does not let people live cuba at will. cause people cant have tehir own bussiness in CUBA, cause they dont have election in CUBA. Just that one fake election in 1998.

9. CUbans dont own CUba, CASTRO owns cuba. [/B] If cubans owned cuba dont you think that their would be more than one "election" since 1960?[B]

10. Cuba has made a good example for other latin american countries to stand up to the USA? no, besides that moron chavez and maybe LULA in Brazil, no one in latin america wants to stand up to the USA, they want to trade with them.

11. I didnt kn. But i would assume if they are struggling harvesting the sugar its because their technology is way behind. But their economy should just depend from one product, that goes for every country.

12. who&#39;s fighting for the cuban people? castro? no, he is just fighting for his own intrest, he wasnt to stay in power. Whay hasnt Castro given cuba to ayounger leader, he is old and wouldnt he like to have a rest?? and he is not as sharp as he once was.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 11:38 PM

Funny that, Because all the people that i know that have visited Cuba say nothing but praise of the Island. Secondly, Worms are known to be terible liars.
What worms?
If youre talking about mysource that lived their. He liked cuba , but he was one of the privliged who didnt live the same way other cubans did.

[Bolshevika]

"El Profe" I sure hope you aren&#39;t from any country in South America because if you are, you are the worst kind of bourgeois. You get in the way of our unity with your fascist, capitalist ideas.

Of course the upper class people in Latin American countries live better than Cubans&#33; That is not the point, because in every country, it is poor people that make up the majority, and you even admitted it. Poor people in Cuba live better than poor people in the other Latin American countries, poor people make up the majority, so that is what we call social justice . The Cuban peoples support Fidel Castro, because if they didn&#39;t, they would&#39;ve done to him what they did to Batista (who was far more "anti-freedom" by the way).

[Monty Cantsin]

cause people cant have tehir own bussiness in CUBA,


wrong people in Cuba can have their own business if you looked at the facts you would know that labour is broken up into state sector 76%, non-state sector 24%. So they have there own business but its heavily taxed.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 12:09 AM
Alejandro C: I only know cubans. But I can answer some of your questions.



1.ask your dad if he thinks Cubans are worse off than any other third world country.
2.ask your dad if cubans have a greater sense of national pride than other latin american countries because of Fidel.
3.ask your dad why there is overwhelming support for castro in cuba.
4.ask your dad why a small contingent of anti-casto cubans in miami are controlling the entire US foreign policy to cuba.
5.ask your dad why the US considers Cuba to be a terrorist state.
6.ask your dad why cuba is on the human rights commission of the UN while the united states just got kicked off.
7.ask your dad why every year the UN votes everyone in the world against US and israel to lift the trade embargo.
8.ask your dad why the US will not lift the embargo until Cuba promises to give its citizens rights that not even people in the US have.
9.ask your dad if he&#39;s proud that cubans own cuba.
10.ask your dad if Cuba has set a good example of standing up to the US for other latin american countries.
11.ask your dad why Cuba is struggling so much havesting the sugar.
12.ask your dad why his son hates a man who has spent every hour of his life for the last fifty years fighting for the cuban people.

1. Cubans are worse off than the middle and rich class in 3rd world countries, but they are better of than the poor in 3rd world countries.

2. greater sense of national pride than other latin american countries thanks to fidel? Im not sure Argentinians and mexican&#39;s have the most pride for their countries to the point of annoyance.

3. Overwhelming support for Castro in CUBA? becaue if you dont support him you go to jail. And if you talk about those rallies on the street, eveyrone gets vacation from work to go to those, and you have repercutins if you dont go.

4. Every Cuban in miami is anti-castro, why would they leave otherwise. And their is many cubans in miami, as to the few that control the foreign policy, they just want to be able to go back to cuba.

5. Probably cause its communist and was an ally of the USSR.

6. the HUMan rights commision, look at this report on cuba from the human rights watch webpage.
http://hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/

7. the un votes everyone in the world??????

8. Cuase Cuba does not let people live cuba at will. cause people cant have tehir own bussiness in CUBA, cause they dont have election in CUBA. Just that one fake election in 1998.

9. CUbans dont own CUba, CASTRO owns cuba. If cubans owned cuba dont you think that their would be more than one "election" since 1960?

10. Cuba has made a good example for other latin american countries to stand up to the USA? no, besides that moron chavez and maybe LULA in Brazil, no one in latin america wants to stand up to the USA, they want to trade with them.

11. I didnt kn. But i would assume if they are struggling harvesting the sugar its because their technology is way behind. But their economy should just depend from one product, that goes for every country.

12. who&#39;s fighting for the cuban people? castro? no, he is just fighting for his own intrest, he wasnt to stay in power. Whay hasnt Castro given cuba to ayounger leader, he is old and wouldnt he like to have a rest?? and he is not as sharp as he once was.
What age are you? Your mental age is comparible to that of a five year old.
Most of what you just typed is very wrong. Read some books. That&#39;s all i really have to say.
http://www.newhumanist.com/geiser.html
Educate yourself before you come here spewing out incorrect arguements.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 01:06 AM

cause people cant have tehir own bussiness in CUBA,


wrong people in Cuba can have their own business if you looked at the facts you would know that labour is broken up into state sector 76%, non-state sector 24%. So they have there own business but its heavily taxed.
yes. I know i read about this. But i read that lets say if you have a restaurant it cant sit more than 12 people.
so that is not really freedom, you cant progress you stay the same.

Bolshevika:
Im not from South America, im from central america.
Anyway, I said rich and middle calss are betterof not the poor. thats sad, but you look at it this way:
LETS MAKE EVERYONE POOR AND EQUAL. I SAY, LETS try to see how we can have more rich, more middle class and less poor.

DEATH:
IVE read books, BUT PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG with what i said, it seems right on to me. is 1 wrong, how is it wrong. Is 2 wrong? no. So you tell me how was i wrong.

[Monty Cantsin]

el_profe what makes you think your sources are any better then ours?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 02:38 AM
el_profe what makes you think your sources are any better then ours?
what makes you think your sources are better than mine?

[Monty Cantsin]

well from what you&#39;ve told me of your sources you talking to people who left cuba meaing they would have been of the upper classes thus a bais view point. where as i&#39;ve got my facts from different economic sites even the cia and many other books. so i have a cross section of view points

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 03:23 AM
well from what you&#39;ve told me of your sources you talking to people who left cuba meaing they would have been of the upper classes thus a bais view point. where as i&#39;ve got my facts from different economic sites even the cia and many other books. so i have a cross section of view points
Yes. That was my point that source that i know lived their and liked it, but he did not live like the rest, he told me about stores he could shop in but cubans couldnt.

As to other sources i do know alot of other families that left cuba because they hated cuba.

And the people i know that have gone to cuba , say its a nice country(nice beaches and all that). But they also stayed in hotels where cubans couldnt stay in.

And those are the only things i said my sources had todl me about cuba.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 02:30 AM
DEATH:
IVE read books, BUT PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG with what i said, it seems right on to me. is 1 wrong, how is it wrong. Is 2 wrong? no. So you tell me how was i wrong.
1. Master of the obvious.

2. Wherever Fidel goes, He is welcomed. I think it would be correct to say Fidel is an icon of Latin American resistance..

3. *yawn* "and you have repercutins if you dont go" 7 million usually attend the rallies, Cuban population is 11 million. Castro hardly purges 4 million Cubans.

4. Worms.. Worms.. Worms.. You know how easy it is to crush a worm?

5. Cuba is not Communist, It is Socialist.

6. No country has a clean record.

7. The UN has voted for the past 13 (or so) years for America to end the embargo agianst Cuba. Everytime the result has been in overwhelming support of Cuba.

8. "Live Cuba at will"?

9. There has.

10. Actually. Alot of people do. It&#39;s the fact that they simply cannot as America is feared.

11.

12. Because the people vote for him.

If you want me to go further or present some sources, I&#39;ll be happy to comply. You must forgive me, It&#39;s 03:37 AM.

[el_profe]

Death:

2. we where talking about national pride.

3. I know i said everyone gets vacation from work. I will refrase that. " almost everyone is given a forced vacation to go and protest", and obvioulsy sometime not everyone can go. AND WHY DO I SEE KIDS in those rallies, arent they suppose to be in shcool? or do they get the day of? :o
the gov. has citizens that help in neighborhoods and at work by saying who is and who istn showing up to those rallies. and also to catch any anti castro people.

5. NOT COMMUNIST??? thats not what i have been told by many on this board, why would che support a socialist and not a communist. IF YOU dont want to call cuba communist then I would say it would fall right under totalitarianism.

6. Okay at least you admit it.

7. Oh yes i had heard that before. Actually i think they should take the embargo off, but until Castro is out, even if they have another communist leader, they should lift the embargo after castro.

8. my bad. WHY CANT PEOPLE LEAVE CUBA AT WILL. I mean any day, if youre in cuba you cant decide today youre going to leave tomorrow on an airplane to another country.

9. there has been more than one election since 1960? when , i thought only 1998. And who has been running against him, other communist ?

10. Many in latin america where agianst the war in Iraq. Stand up to america, like over what issue? give me an example? and dont use chavez i already mentioned him.

12. The people vote for him. :o , because if they dont they go to jail. and what vote besides the fake election in 1998.?

[FistFullOfSteel]

on the 8 question:Why cant they leave then?

[Deniz Gezmis]

3. Where did you hear this? People are not forced to go. Unlike in some of Americas old friends countries. (Saddam & Co.)

5. It&#39;s Socialist. Some would argue it&#39;s a deformed workers state.

8. 20,000 are allowed to leave every year.

9. http://www.newhumanist.com/geiser.html

[el_profe]

3. Someone that escaped cuba 2 years ago.

5. totalitarianism

8. 20,000 , are these the amount of people that leave or escape?

9. Why dont they have elections for president?

And what is the use of having an election if everyone running is from the same party. Because they dont allow people with different ideals to run.
Its like having only republicans or only democrats run for office.
Its stupid to think that those elections are real democratic elections. Youre dillusional if you think that.

Death if you love cuba so much, why dont you go their to live.

If you live in the USA dont use the excuse the USA wont let me, cause you can go to a latin american country and take a plane to cuba, now if they dont let you into cuba because youre american its cuba&#39;s fault.

Also here is a report from the human rights watch website, they report the human rights abuses commited to people with different political views.
http://hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/ (http://hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/)

[Deniz Gezmis]

"If you live in the USA dont use the excuse the USA wont let me, cause you can go to a latin american country and take a plane to cuba, now if they dont let you into cuba because youre american its cuba&#39;s fault."
I live in Ireland.

"Death if you love cuba so much, why dont you go their to live."
1. Because i&#39;m not of legal age.
2. Because i wish to help the cause here.

"And what is the use of having an election if everyone running is from the same party. Because they dont allow people with different ideals to run.
Its like having only republicans or only democrats run for office.
Its stupid to think that those elections are real democratic elections. Youre dillusional if you think that."
Wrong. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/46399.stm
"There are no known opponents of Castro or the government among the newly-elected candidates, who were proposed by special candidacy commissions formed by members of pro-government organisations representing farmers, students and other social groups. "

9. *yawn*

3. Worms are known to be terible liars. And since 4 million don&#39;t attend, If Castro is who you say he is, Why doesn&#39;t he kill them?

5. Where? America? :)

8. 20,000 visas are processed every year.

[Soviet power supreme]

LETS MAKE EVERYONE POOR AND EQUAL. I SAY, LETS try to see how we can have more rich, more middle class and less poor.


Could explain how you are going to do that?Privatization?More freedom in globalization?


5. NOT COMMUNIST??? thats not what i have been told by many on this board, why would che support a socialist and not a communist. IF YOU dont want to call cuba communist then I would say it would fall right under totalitarianism.


Read the fucking communist manifesto and then come shouting here.The Cuba is in a transitional process into communism which is called socialism.


9. Why dont they have elections for president?


Why cant you read the link that death gave?
http://www.newhumanist.com/geiser.html

Their presidentual election is revoluiton election.Castro is head of revolution and if people of cuba voted against the revoultion it would mean end of Castro regime.

[Bolshevika]

9. Why dont they have elections for president?

And what is the use of having an election if everyone running is from the same party. Because they dont allow people with different ideals to run.
Its like having only republicans or only democrats run for office.
Its stupid to think that those elections are real democratic elections. Youre dillusional if you think that.

Actually, there was what you call an election in 1998. There was Fidel Castro on one side, and another person, not from the Communist party, on the other side. 7.6 of 7.8 million eligible Cuban voters went to vote and Fidel won.

Your "Democracy" is simply a rich man&#39;s democracy. Poor people, the working people, have little to no chance on putting up their candidates because they would just get swept by the rich candidates who spend millions of dollars on campaign ads and propaganda. So really, you are not elected for your ideas, but how much you lie and how much money you spend.

Unlike the United States, in Cuba people are voted in for their ideas, not their propaganda campaigns. Cuban&#39;s are given biographies of different candidates before voting, most the candidates are regular people nominated by their communities. Each neighborhood has its own representative, that is elected by the people, and if the candidate betrays its promises, he is recalled as easily as he is elected.

Unlike the United States, where after you elect your leader the system becomes bureaucratic and you have no say.

It is very uncommon for someone to be recalled in the United States, even if they prove to be liars like George W. Bush. In Cuba it happens very often.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2003, 11:10 PM




"And what is the use of having an election if everyone running is from the same party. Because they dont allow people with different ideals to run.
Its like having only republicans or only democrats run for office.
Its stupid to think that those elections are real democratic elections. Youre dillusional if you think that."
Wrong. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/46399.stm


9. *yawn*

3. Worms are known to be terible liars. And since 4 million don&#39;t attend, If Castro is who you say he is, Why doesn&#39;t he kill them?

5. Where? America? :)

8. 20,000 visas are processed every year.
LOL. thanks youre link said exactly what i was saying. ONE CANDIDATE= one party=the communist party. thanks, lol. yet you call that democracy.

3. I rather believe people that have lived tehir. ONe was not cuban so he would not be biased because he was free to live at will. Like i was saying, i rather believe people that have lived their than some 15yr old that only writes crap from his comfortable home. Also have you ever even visited latin america? tijuana and those mexican border cities dont count.

ITs funny how most people on this board talk about how bad the poor live, yet most of you dont even know what that poverty looks like, and dont live like poor people. If you all are not greedy, sell your cars, sell your pc&#39;s because all that is just a product of semi-capitalism.(capitalism by your definition).

5. OH. You must not know the definition of totalitarianism:Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul".
Sound like Cuba.

8. yes. A visa allows you to leave, but you must come back.
Another reaosn why they are printing alot of visas. IS because they have a program in which doctors of latin american countries are sent to cuba and cuban doctors are sent to latin american countries, like happened in my country. Anyway, the cuban doctors are sent to the worst places in those latin american countries, logically to help all the poor people, but also so when they compare cuba and that country, they see cuba is better. But when they go back to the city to leave for cuba and they see the city not the poorest part of the country. they actually see they where lied to and some decide to stay. That is where i know the perosn that escaped cuba 2 years ago. You she decided to stay, and her brother lost his job in cuba at the same time, what a coincidence?

And the people that return to cuba, always return with boxes of food, clothes and other stuff, ive seen this in 2 airports. Cubans that are going back to cuba with just boxes full of food , clothes. and i say, wow, i guess they dont get all their need covered by castro.
If you dont believe me, next time i am at my countries airport, i will take a picture of the line of the cuban airline and show you all of the cubans taking back as much as they can. So you have proof.

Another thing, you know cubans dont have acces to the world wide web? no. they only have a type of email system, but they dont have acces to the world wide web. I wonder why???????

You will ask how do i know this. I dont want to write the story down again. But since you will ask for proof, why dont we find any cubans in cuba writing on this forum or on other forums or on chats. why?
I will tell you why, because their gov. has lied to them about how the rest of the world is , that is why athletes and others that get visas, decide that they are going to flee cuba. WHY would they do that if cuba is so great????

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 12:11 AM
3. I rather believe people that have lived tehir. ONe was not cuban so he would not be biased because he was free to live at will. Like i was saying, i rather believe people that have lived their than some 15yr old that only writes crap from his comfortable home. Also have you ever even visited latin america? tijuana and those mexican border cities dont count.

ITs funny how most people on this board talk about how bad the poor live, yet most of you dont even know what that poverty looks like, and dont live like poor people. If you all are not greedy, sell your cars, sell your pc&#39;s because all that is just a product of semi-capitalism.(capitalism by your definition).

5. OH. You must not know the definition of totalitarianism:Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul".
Sound like Cuba.

8. yes. A visa allows you to leave, but you must come back.
Another reaosn why they are printing alot of visas. IS because they have a program in which doctors of latin american countries are sent to cuba and cuban doctors are sent to latin american countries, like happened in my country. Anyway, the cuban doctors are sent to the worst places in those latin american countries, logically to help all the poor people, but also so when they compare cuba and that country, they see cuba is better. But when they go back to the city to leave for cuba and they see the city not the poorest part of the country. they actually see they where lied to and some decide to stay. That is where i know the perosn that escaped cuba 2 years ago. You she decided to stay, and her brother lost his job in cuba at the same time, what a coincidence?

And the people that return to cuba, always return with boxes of food, clothes and other stuff, ive seen this in 2 airports. Cubans that are going back to cuba with just boxes full of food , clothes. and i say, wow, i guess they dont get all their need covered by castro.
If you dont believe me, next time i am at my countries airport, i will take a picture of the line of the cuban airline and show you all of the cubans taking back as much as they can. So you have proof.

Another thing, you know cubans dont have acces to the world wide web? no. they only have a type of email system, but they dont have acces to the world wide web. I wonder why???????

You will ask how do i know this. I dont want to write the story down again. But since you will ask for proof, why dont we find any cubans in cuba writing on this forum or on other forums or on chats. why?
I will tell you why, because their gov. has lied to them about how the rest of the world is , that is why athletes and others that get visas, decide that they are going to flee cuba. WHY would they do that if cuba is so great????
3. No. I havn&#39;t. Why do you expect me to have traveled the world a thousand times?

That has nothing to do with anything. We on this board are mostly from capitalist countries, Most of all realize what are the wrongs of Capitalism. Your arguement has been used previously. Quite frankly, It doesn&#39;t work.

No. It sounds more like the great USA.

Yes. Cuban doctors go abroad to help in places such as the slums of caracus. Foreign doctors are also trained in Cuba.

This is the case of many countries, When i visit a foreign country and pass through duty free, I tend to stock up on as much sweets as posible. Does this make me a Cuban? :lol: Yet agian, Your arguement has no base at all.

Except in Havana&#39;s two internet cafes and in some public institutions, Cubans have no private access to the internet (From their homes) Therefore, I doubt many Cubans would be using chattrooms, As most of the computers are used to research.

Why would mexicans flee lovely capitalist mexico if it was so great? See. I could easily say that. That arguement also is void. It means nothing.

I doubt Castro has lied to the Cuban people on the scale that some American presidents have to their sheep (People). Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush. Just a few examples.

Thanks, Comrade..
:castro::cuba:

[el_profe]

3. capitalism has never existed in Latin America . I just wrote a post on this. here is the link, its the 3rd to last post. http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=8&t=20283 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=20283)


This is the case of many countries, When i visit a foreign country and pass through duty free, I tend to stock up on as much sweets as posible. Does this make me a Cuban? :lol: Yet agian, Your arguement has no base at all.
LOL, lol :lol: , You have never seen this right. No, they dont stock up on sweets. THEY STOCK UP on food, clothes anything they can get. You definelty have not seen this. I will take a picture next time, and i will show you what stocking up is.

Why dont cubans have private access to computers?
Even in poor latin america you have access to internet.
2 internet cafe&#39;s. WOW, why only limited access. Maybe the cuban gov. does not want them to see how great world outside of cuba is.


Why would mexicans flee lovely capitalist mexico if it was so great? See. I could easily say that. That arguement also is void. It means nothing.
LOL, capitalist, lol. I dont know if you know that Mexico was run by the same party 70 years. And by the policies of those gov. you can definetly see they are not capitalist. Again go to the link i gave you at the top of the post.


I doubt Castro has lied to the Cuban people on the scale that some American presidents have to their sheep (People). Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush. Just a few examples.
Id say about the same, and Castro has had 40 years of lying.

One more thing. Why arent Cuban athletes givven permision to move out of Cuba and play sports in another country?

Why do you need a visa to leave cuba? wouldnt you just need a passport? Oh no, because you need special permission to leave Cuba. WOW, Cuab really promotes individual right and personal freedom.

And why did Castro&#39;s own daughter leave Cuba, lol, lol ,lol, lol.
And she hasnt returned, lol. Either she hated it , or her dad abused her, cause why would she want to leave. lol

QUote from Castro&#39;s daughter: "You are stuck in 1959: the same political speeches, the same military uniforms, the same slogans, the same fears." :lol: :lol:

here&#39;s another quote from her: "I have to do whatever I can to break the wall of ignorance regarding my country," she says. "There has been a lot of propaganda and nobody has known the truth until the last few years."
There is a Wall of ignorance as big as the chinese wall in this forum :lol: :D :lol: :P ;)

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 04:49 PM
3. capitalism has never existed in Latin America . I just wrote a post on this. here is the link, its the 3rd to last post. http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=8&t=20283 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=20283)


This is the case of many countries, When i visit a foreign country and pass through duty free, I tend to stock up on as much sweets as posible. Does this make me a Cuban? :lol: Yet agian, Your arguement has no base at all.
LOL, lol :lol: , You have never seen this right. No, they dont stock up on sweets. THEY STOCK UP on food, clothes anything they can get. You definelty have not seen this. I will take a picture next time, and i will show you what stocking up is.

Why dont cubans have private access to computers?
Even in poor latin america you have access to internet.
2 internet cafe&#39;s. WOW, why only limited access. Maybe the cuban gov. does not want them to see how great world outside of cuba is.


Why would mexicans flee lovely capitalist mexico if it was so great? See. I could easily say that. That arguement also is void. It means nothing.
LOL, capitalist, lol. I dont know if you know that Mexico was run by the same party 70 years. And by the policies of those gov. you can definetly see they are not capitalist. Again go to the link i gave you at the top of the post.


I doubt Castro has lied to the Cuban people on the scale that some American presidents have to their sheep (People). Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush. Just a few examples.
Id say about the same, and Castro has had 40 years of lying.

One more thing. Why arent Cuban athletes givven permision to move out of Cuba and play sports in another country?

Why do you need a visa to leave cuba? wouldnt you just need a passport? Oh no, because you need special permission to leave Cuba. WOW, Cuab really promotes individual right and personal freedom.

And why did Castro&#39;s own daughter leave Cuba, lol, lol ,lol, lol.
And she hasnt returned, lol. Either she hated it , or her dad abused her, cause why would she want to leave. lol
As i do not smoke or drink, I have no reason to buy large amounts of alcohol or cigarettes at duty free, Goto any airport, You&#39;ll see people who get as much as they can from duty free.:rolleyes:

They don&#39;t have private access because NO ONE can simply afford it, even if they could Cuba isnt in a position to get anymore computers on that scale. Both for the ISP&#39;s and the private users.

Mexico isnt capitalist? Yeah, right. :lol:

Cuba does let thier athletes leave for sporting events, It&#39;s actually the fact that America does not let Cuban atheletes goto America for sporting events, This is why America had their right removed to host The world wrestling championship.

Castro&#39;s own daughter left because she didn&#39;t like her father. She also dislikes her mother. (Source: Holidays in the axis of evil, BBC Documentry)

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:27 PM








As i do not smoke or drink, I have no reason to buy large amounts of alcohol or cigarettes at duty free, Goto any airport, You&#39;ll see people who get as much as they can from duty free.:rolleyes:
Its nice that you choose to see something that i didnt write. And in the airport where I saw them you cant shop fro boxes of cereal and other foods in boxes and cans. So they must of gotten that outside. And when I say boxes I MEAN BOXES. Full of stuff, like I said, clothes and food and even some electronic
stuff.
And you must not be very smart to keep on insisting on duty free shopping, because with duty free shopping they take what you bought to the plane. lol. And what I said I saw was the line where you check in . :D


They don&#39;t have private access because NO ONE can simply afford it, even if they could Cuba isnt in a position to get anymore computers on that scale. Both for the ISP&#39;s and the private users.
OH, they cants afford it and the gov. cant provide it for them. :o :o :o


Mexico isnt capitalist? yeah right.
Its not, you must not know much about mexico. Do you even know the party that was in power in mexico for 70 years? you will just find out on the internet anyway so what is the difference.
Anyway, like I said , read thelink I geave you. the PRI always had their hand in the economy and that right their is not capitalism.


Cuba does let thier athletes leave for sporting events, It&#39;s actually the fact that America does not let Cuban atheletes goto America for sporting events, This is why America had their right removed to host The world wrestling championship.
No, did you mis interpret my question, again. Or do you just dont know how to answer so you answer something totally different.
Here was my question: Why arent Cuban athletes givven permision to move out of Cuba and play sports in another country?
I see the olympics and the panamerican game i see the cuban athletes their. What i also see is a lot of cuban athletes that have defected in these sporting events. Ive read and seen news of Basketball, volleyball, baseball players and other types of athletes that have defected.

People arent allowed to MOVE to another country either?

EVEN CHINA ALLOWED YAO TO MOVE TO THE USA TO PLAY.


Castro&#39;s own daughter left because she didn&#39;t like her father. She also dislikes her mother. (Source: Holidays in the axis of evil, BBC Documentry)
Thanks for that news. If his own daughter doesnt like him, do you think his country likes him?

And castro is ole why doesnt he give another communist his job as president? or maybe he is just to greedy to give up that postition.

:o :o look at the amazing transportation Cuba has, too bad you dont know spanish and cant read what the pic says, but here is the link anyway. http://64.21.33.164/fotoreport/today/fotos121903.htm

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 12:52 PM


[QUOTE]Mexico isnt capitalist? yeah right.
Its not, you must not know much about mexico. Do you even know the party that was in power in mexico for 70 years? you will just find out on the internet anyway so what is the difference.
Anyway, like I said , read thelink I geave you. the PRI always had their hand in the economy and that right their is not capitalism.
It was capitalism. The PRI was elected every year. If the elections were rigged, it was no more than elections are rigged in the U&#036;.
The PRI had completely capitalist policies - I don&#39;t even see how you could claim that they didn&#39;t.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 12:52 PM

Castro&#39;s own daughter left because she didn&#39;t like her father. She also dislikes her mother. (Source: Holidays in the axis of evil, BBC Documentry)
Thanks for that news. If his own daughter doesnt like him, do you think his country likes him?

And castro is ole why doesnt he give another communist his job as president? or maybe he is just to greedy to give up that postition.


1) Castro&#39;s daughter didn&#39;t like her father because, even as the daughter of the president, she got no special treatment. Her mother, Naty Revuelta (...bet you didn&#39;t know her name...), was a rich, spoiled, capitalist (her family was one of the wealthiest in cuba) dancer who had an affair with Fidel. She was Fidel&#39;s daughter&#39;s greatest influence - and I might add that Naty still lives in Cuba and is happy with it.

2) Because none of the other Cuban communists are COMPETENT enough. Only a man like Fidel could lead the only Socialist country in Latin America for 40 years, just 90 miles from his greatest enemy. Without Fidel, Cuba as a Socialist country may likely have been little more than a dream.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:54 PM

It was capitalism. The PRI was elected every year. If the elections were rigged, it was no more than elections are rigged in the U&#036;.
The PRI had completely capitalist policies - I don&#39;t even see how you could claim that they didn&#39;t.
What did I just say. LOL, I am not sure if the more recent ones where rig. YOU DONT understand that they where protecting(this is not capitalism, protecting companies, that is not free market) the big media providers in Mexico, and they used the media to their advantage to fool the people. YOU DONT HAVE TO RIG ELECTION WHENE YOU HAVE CONTROL OF THE MEDIA, you just use the people&#39;s ignorance and the media to your advantage.

As to elections rigged in the USA, who rigged them republicans? for 70 years. Clinton was a democrat, so theyre has not been 1 party in control of the media. BUT both of the parties have democrats and republicans in control of the media.

THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM:
"Since the nationalization of the oil industry in 1938, the state-owned Pemex has monopolized the production and marketing of hydrocarbons. For decades the government tolerated Pemex&#39;s waste and inefficiency because the company produced nearly all public revenues. Problems mounted, however, as a result of Pemex&#39;s poor administration, low productivity, overstaffing, and corruption. By the late 1980s, Mexico&#39;s economic recovery had come to depend heavily on reform of the state oil sector."
http://countrystudies.us/mexico/78.htm

Are you gonna say i falsified this info, or is it USA propaganda.

What we have in mexico like in latin america is
mercantilism (which I doubt you know what it is) read the link I gave death, where i write about what you have in latin america and in mexico.

[Ortega]

Nice, I&#39;ll take that as an answer.

Now can you answer my other post??

[Deniz Gezmis]

Nassar Nationalized the Suez Canal, That hardly turned Egypt became a non-capitalist country.

I doubt Cubans take BOXES of things with them. One second they are poor peasants, Next second that can
somehow afford to take hugh boxes of supplies with them and if they are taking as many things as you describe, They&#39;ll be charged for going over the weight of luggage limit. I don&#39;t think that&#39;s something that many Cubans could afford.

The picture of the horse drawn carriage, It&#39;s set in a rural place, Judging by the surroundings. Cuba doesn&#39;t have the capacity to send a bus down every country lane. :rolleyes: But of course, Even if they did that would not be enough. Cuba has many buses and recently made a deal with Brazil to buy some Volvoo buses.

No, The Cuban government has better things to do than to provide internet access for every single person.

"Thanks for that news. If his own daughter doesnt like him, do you think his country likes him?"
This is yet another invalid point. That makes no fucking sence. What age are you?


20,000 are allowed to leave every year. If they really want to leave, Then they must wait until their turn.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:11 PM
YOU DONT HAVE TO RIG ELECTION WHENE YOU HAVE CONTROL OF THE MEDIA, you just use the people&#39;s ignorance and the media to your advantage
now thats ture, so el profe what do you say we do about it?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 09:51 PM


I doubt Cubans take BOXES of things with them. One second they are poor peasants, Next second that can
somehow afford to take hugh boxes of supplies with them and if they are taking as many things as you describe, They&#39;ll be charged for going over the weight of luggage limit. I don&#39;t think that&#39;s something that many Cubans could afford.


I know, that is what is more amazing. but who knows what restrictions on weight the cuban airline has.
Maybe they get some extra money for the trip I dont know, or some of their relatives in Miami send them money.
But I have seen this, not only me of course anyone in the airport can see them.
I know some cubans in my country that helped one of their relatives who was a doctor from cuba with buying him food and some electronics, maybe that is where they get the money.
Im not sure, but i have seen it.

[Ortega]

el_profe, have any argument with my second point? You still haven&#39;t responded.

[Bolshevika]

I know a woman from a rich family in Argentina that got a scholarship to a Cuban medical university. The Cuban government payed everything for her, housing, transportation, etc, but she came back after a year. Why ? Because she was used to having her nails done every week, buying the best clothing, etc etc and had no sense or feeling or want for equality and justice, she was just a selfish little ***** who got in a free school.

That is what most, if not all people that have negative opinions on Cuba are. Rich pigs who think it&#39;s Paris .

Another thing, the large capitalist countries rely on the &#39;mercanlism&#39; (neo-liberal free trade capitalism) for cheap labour. That is why all the physical jobs that are most evidently exploitive are almost all in the third-world.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by euripidies+Dec 22 2003, 10:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (euripidies @ Dec 22 2003, 10:12 PM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 06:11 PM
YOU DONT HAVE TO RIG ELECTION WHENE YOU HAVE CONTROL OF THE MEDIA, you just use the people&#39;s ignorance and the media to your advantage
now thats ture, so el profe what do you say we do about it? [/b]

not in all countries you have a monopoly of the media but in most. The real problems is when the media is in cooperation with the gov&#39;s which happened alot. fortunatley now with more channels and cable this does not happen that mutch.

In countries where this mostly works is with countries with high illeteracy rate and people with low education.
As for Mexico, this worked because the biggest media company (televisa, i think i kind of forgot the name right now) is woned by an exmilitary man who was getting protection from the gov. that is what helped el PRI have power for 70. But in the last 15/10 years with more channel and cable people are not affectd by this that much. though i still know that the same media company is very pro PRI and probably helped then get back control of congress last year.
But education and literacy rates isnt the only problem as we can see that by Argentina (which has a high literacy rate) who has a horrible economy right now.
I was using mexico as an example where you still have alot of the population with very little education and they are easily persuaded or fooled by what they see on tv or hear on radio.



What you can do about it, tell the gov to stop protecting the tv media giants. fortunatly in these last 2 decades this has stopped because of influence of other medias and cable and all that.

And what can you do about corrupt govs. , not elect them. Im not just talkin about the presidents cuase where the really corrupt people are is in congress. and you can keep on running fro congress.
Of course not everyone is corrupt.

Here is I think the real problem in latin america is:
People want/expect that all their problems be solved in 4 years. so every time you get a good goverment and the people only see 5% improvement they get mad cause not all problems where solved so they go ahead and elect another crappy goverment and this becomes a cycle.
People need to understand that to change a country in latin america its going to take at least 10 years to se a real change. completely it might take 20 or more years.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 11:28 PM






I know a woman from a rich family in Argentina that got a scholarship to a Cuban medical university. The Cuban government payed everything for her, housing, transportation, etc, but she came back after a year. Why ? Because she was used to having her nails done every week, buying the best clothing, etc etc and had no sense or feeling or want for equality and justice, she was just a selfish little ***** who got in a free school.
But not even half of the rich people are that way. In fact i would say maybe 20% of people are like the girl you described. And i might be overestimating.

Anyway you bring up a great point. DONT YOU THINK ITS UNFAIR FOR THE CUBAN SOCIETY=the cuban worker, to pay for this woman&#39;s housing, tranportation and her shool???????
That money is coming directly from the cubans and it is unfair for them to pay that for her.


Another thing, the large capitalist countries rely on the &#39;mercanlism&#39; (neo-liberal free trade capitalism) for cheap labour. That is why all the physical jobs that are most evidently exploitive are almost all in the third-world.
But you think that hurt our countries. No it doesnt.
In my country some type of gov. agency that inspect for workers safety and hours and that crap, started shutting down clothing plants (which a lot are owned by oriental people who demand alot from their workers, but they work hard themselves as they are almost 24-7 watching their clothing manufacture) anyway the owners would just go to another central american country and put up their business their, also cuase of the 4 minimum wage and the 50% tax increas on those types of manufacturers (mispelled that).

Anyway people in the plants and who had worked their started protesting because they where losing thier jobs.
What im saying is these foreing individiual bussinessmen (they are hired by nike and other clothing companies) and companies help provide job even if they are not the best jobs.
Even castro realizes this as he is trying to get foreing investment into cuba.

Now if a gov would bring down the tax on foreign investment and let more companies start bussiness the wages will go up to try to get the best workers.

[Monty Cantsin]

el_profe on the note of overseas investment, it is needed for a small country to grow such as Cuba which now has 370 companies investing in Cuba. which is a great thing but the problems that accrue in 3rd world courtiers are companies like Nike pay there workers for 14 hours a day 45c and then they make them pay for food that they consume during lunch and so on. Now even though overseas investment might be a good thing in providing jobs but that is just plain exploitation.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Ortega+Dec 22 2003, 06:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ortega @ Dec 22 2003, 06:01 PM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 12:52 PM

Castro&#39;s own daughter left because she didn&#39;t like her father. She also dislikes her mother. (Source: Holidays in the axis of evil, BBC Documentry)
Thanks for that news. If his own daughter doesnt like him, do you think his country likes him?

And castro is ole why doesnt he give another communist his job as president? or maybe he is just to greedy to give up that postition.


1) Castro&#39;s daughter didn&#39;t like her father because, even as the daughter of the president, she got no special treatment. Her mother, Naty Revuelta (...bet you didn&#39;t know her name...), was a rich, spoiled, capitalist (her family was one of the wealthiest in cuba) dancer who had an affair with Fidel. She was Fidel&#39;s daughter&#39;s greatest influence - and I might add that Naty still lives in Cuba and is happy with it.

2) Because none of the other Cuban communists are COMPETENT enough. Only a man like Fidel could lead the only Socialist country in Latin America for 40 years, just 90 miles from his greatest enemy. Without Fidel, Cuba as a Socialist country may likely have been little more than a dream. [/b]
First here is a quote from his daughter:
"I wanted him to find a solution to all the shortages: of clothes, of meat, so it could again be distributed through the ration books. I also wanted to ask him to give our Christmas back. And to come live with us. I wanted to let him know how much we really needed him..."

- Excerpt from the autobiographical Castro&#39;s Daughter, by Alina Fernandez

Now:
1. Yes I knew her mother name I got it from the same article I got the quotes. You should read the article it was written december 8 or this year. http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/dec03/08e7.htm , As to her mother, this is what she said about that : "It&#39;s a lonely campaign. She has not spoken to her father in about 20 years and no longer talks with her mother, Natalia Revuelta, who once sold jewels to buy Mr. Castro weapons and remains a die-hard supporter of the revolution." That is form the same article. Before you question the source, these are things taken form her book and things she has said. YOU KNOW SHE HAS HER OWN RADIO SHOW in Miami.
She was born in 1956 and if she ever lived a rich life it was for 2 or 3 years, she must not remmebre alot, if anything.
As to her being spoiled I dont know , I have not read her book, i bet she mentions something about that in their. And i dont think her mom influencd her about capitalism if she loved communism so much, it doesnt make sense.

2. do you know any of the other Cuban communist in gov.? I know fidel has a brother (or cousin) who will take power when he dies. I heard this like 4 years ago or so, so dont know if the brother has died.

Anyway, after 40 years of communism you would think he would of already prepered a leader to take over for him and with a country communist that long a president change would not affect it. Like the USSR had different leaders and it was able to remain communist for 60 years.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 12:47 AM
el_profe on the note of overseas investment, it is needed for a small country to grow such as Cuba which now has 370 companies investing in Cuba. which is a great thing but the problems that accrue in 3rd world courtiers are companies like Nike pay there workers for 14 hours a day 45c and then they make them pay for food that they consume during lunch and so on. Now even though overseas investment might be a good thing in providing jobs but that is just plain exploitation.
But not exploitation of those 3rd world countries. Without those jobs they would have nothing.

[Monty Cantsin]

But don’t you think that Nike could pay more then 45 for 14 hours. That does seem a bit low they pay then something like &#036;16 month .I mean you can take good with bad there but when it comes to Cuba you can&#39;t. Cubas doing great economically considering the embargo just because Fidel might be a authoritarian you can’t see the good side of Cuba.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 01:10 AM
But don’t you think that Nike could pay more then 45 for 14 hours. That does seem a bit low they pay then something like &#036;16 month .I mean you can take good with bad there but when it comes to Cuba you can&#39;t. Cubas doing great economically considering the embargo just because Fidel might be a authoritarian you can’t see the good side of Cuba.
16 a month? In china or in veitnam.
Not in latin America, they do have minimum wage in all countries. And the minimum wage is higher than that.

And even if minimum wage didnt exist people wouldnt take that money, they can make more money by sellin candy on the street.

I think i saw a report on tv about the low wages nike pays in vietnam , i think it was like &#036;10 a month or something like that i dont remember if that was a week or a month :unsure:

[Bolshevika]

In most Latin American countries minimum wages are not properly enforced.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 12:59 AM
Anyway, after 40 years of communism you would think he would of already prepered a leader to take over for him and with a country communist that long a president change would not affect it. Like the USSR had different leaders and it was able to remain communist for 60 years.
What you mean is, After 40 years of Socialism. Secondly, When Lenin died, Stalin took over, When Stalin dieded Kruschev took over... ect.. Do you see a patern? Fidel has yet to die, Obviously.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Death+Dec 23 2003, 03:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Death @ Dec 23 2003, 03:20 AM)
[email protected] 23 2003, 12:59 AM
Anyway, after 40 years of communism you would think he would of already prepered a leader to take over for him and with a country communist that long a president change would not affect it. Like the USSR had different leaders and it was able to remain communist for 60 years.
What you mean is, After 40 years of Socialism. Secondly, When Lenin died, Stalin took over, When Stalin dieded Kruschev took over... ect.. Do you see a patern? Fidel has yet to die, Obviously. [/b]
? so he has to die to give up power?? cant he give power to a healthier both physically and mentaly person.
I mean he is definetly not as "sharp" as he was. What if fidel gets alzihemers? does he still stay in power?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 02:32 AM
In most Latin American countries minimum wages are not properly enforced.
Yes, but trust me, no one will work for 16 a month. As to the wage not being enforced, they do enforce okay and if it was wages that low they would definetly not permit it. Human rights would be all over that.

Where you dont see the enforcement of the minimum wage, is in really rural areas, where some(not many) farmers pay their workers crap. They say its because the workers live off the land with the food they produce and taht stuff, but I think its bs. Me personally i would pay them more.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 23 2003, 07:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 23 2003, 07:15 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:20 AM

[email protected] 23 2003, 12:59 AM
Anyway, after 40 years of communism you would think he would of already prepered a leader to take over for him and with a country communist that long a president change would not affect it. Like the USSR had different leaders and it was able to remain communist for 60 years.
What you mean is, After 40 years of Socialism. Secondly, When Lenin died, Stalin took over, When Stalin dieded Kruschev took over... ect.. Do you see a patern? Fidel has yet to die, Obviously.
? so he has to die to give up power?? cant he give power to a healthier both physically and mentaly person.
I mean he is definetly not as "sharp" as he was. What if fidel gets alzihemers? does he still stay in power? [/b]
If Fidel did contract that diesease, I think he would step down from power. But he would still remain a prominant public figure.

Read these: http://www.granma.cu/ingles/deporte.html

[el_profe]

Just answer me this.

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

Why is escaping cuba a crime?

You critize the people that leave, you have no right to do that. They know how it really is to live their, you dont. And if so many cubans love cuba, why are their 1.2 million cuban&#39;s in the USA? and their is more in latin america.

1.2 + the ones living in latin america= almost 10% of the cuban population.
Even Mexico that has so many leave to the USA doesnt even come close to havin 10% of their population in the USA.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 10:25 PM
Just answer me this.

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

Why is escaping cuba a crime?

You critize the people that leave, you have no right to do that. They know how it really is to live their, you dont. And if so many cubans love cuba, why are their 1.2 million cuban&#39;s in the USA? and their is more in latin america.

1.2 + the ones living in latin america= almost 10% of the cuban population.
Even Mexico that has so many leave to the USA doesnt even come close to havin 10% of their population in the USA.
Your question answers itself. You&#39;ve also asked before and have recieved answers before. Rather than accepting defeat you bring up the same old trash.
It&#39;s a crime because there are legal ways to go about doing so. Your question answers itself.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Death+Dec 23 2003, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Death @ Dec 23 2003, 11:12 PM)
[email protected] 23 2003, 10:25 PM
Just answer me this.

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

Why is escaping cuba a crime?

You critize the people that leave, you have no right to do that. They know how it really is to live their, you dont. And if so many cubans love cuba, why are their 1.2 million cuban&#39;s in the USA? and their is more in latin america.

1.2 + the ones living in latin america= almost 10% of the cuban population.
Even Mexico that has so many leave to the USA doesnt even come close to havin 10% of their population in the USA.
Your question answers itself. You&#39;ve also asked before and have recieved answers before. Rather than accepting defeat you bring up the same old trash.
It&#39;s a crime because there are legal ways to go about doing so. Your question answers itself. [/b]
My question of why you cant move to another country was never answered.
I was answered with the visa answer, but that only gives them permission to leave for some time, they must return.
But if you cant answer why they cant move , thats fine.

I never asked why escaping is a crime? it only seems to be a crime in Communist countries.

And my last question, it was the first time i asked that question.

So basically you couldtn answer my questions, so you avoided them and said they had been answered.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 23 2003, 11:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 23 2003, 11:16 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 11:12 PM

[email protected] 23 2003, 10:25 PM
Just answer me this.

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

Why is escaping cuba a crime?

You critize the people that leave, you have no right to do that. They know how it really is to live their, you dont. And if so many cubans love cuba, why are their 1.2 million cuban&#39;s in the USA? and their is more in latin america.

1.2 + the ones living in latin america= almost 10% of the cuban population.
Even Mexico that has so many leave to the USA doesnt even come close to havin 10% of their population in the USA.
Your question answers itself. You&#39;ve also asked before and have recieved answers before. Rather than accepting defeat you bring up the same old trash.
It&#39;s a crime because there are legal ways to go about doing so. Your question answers itself.
My question of why you cant move to another country was never answered.
I was answered with the visa answer, but that only gives them permission to leave for some time, they must return.
But if you cant answer why they cant move , thats fine.

I never asked why escaping is a crime? it only seems to be a crime in Communist countries.

And my last question, it was the first time i asked that question.

So basically you couldtn answer my questions, so you avoided them and said they had been answered. [/b]
My question of why you cant move to another country was never answered.
Simply because, They are not needed there unless they are doctors, construction workers, ect.


I never asked why escaping is a crime? it only seems to be a crime in Communist countries.
*Socialist countries. Cuba is not Communist. You fucking fool.

So basically you couldtn answer my questions, so you avoided them and said they had been answered.It seems you were avoiding the questions. Ortega had to ask you several times to answer his question.

What age are you?

[Bolshevika]

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

El Profe, you are extremely misinformed.


The visa limits are put on by the U.S. government, not the Cuban government. You need a visa to visit any part of the world from any country in the world.

My grandpa tried to get a Visa in the Argentinian/U.S. embassy, yet they denied him one. Does the Argentinian one, which is a exploitive capitalist state like what you love, &#39;not let their citizens out of the country&#39; ?

[FarfromNear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 12:21 AM

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

El Profe, you are extremely misinformed.


The visa limits are put on by the U.S. government, not the Cuban government. You need a visa to visit any part of the world from any country in the world.

My grandpa tried to get a Visa in the Argentinian/U.S. embassy, yet they denied him one. Does the Argentinian one, which is a exploitive capitalist state like what you love, &#39;not let their citizens out of the country&#39; ?
Cubans are not allowed to leave the country. Arentina does not have capitalism.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 12:21 AM

Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

El Profe, you are extremely misinformed.


The visa limits are put on by the U.S. government, not the Cuban government. You need a visa to visit any part of the world from any country in the world.

My grandpa tried to get a Visa in the Argentinian/U.S. embassy, yet they denied him one. Does the Argentinian one, which is a exploitive capitalist state like what you love, &#39;not let their citizens out of the country&#39; ?
NO, you just did not understand my question, OMG.

Misinformed, yeah, like ive never been on a fucking ariplane or visited another country.

when you visit another country, of course you need a visa for the country your going to. You get that at the countries embassy(if I want to go to germany, i go to the german embassy to get a visa)

BUT here is teh difference between taht stupid example you gave and the one I gave.
Lets say i want to move to the USA, i go to the USA embassy apply for a visa and then in the states apply for a resident card.

BUT MY COUNTRY, lets me leave at will, and if i am not accepted in the USA i can move to Brazil or argentina or a country that does let me in.

IN FUCKING CUBA, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MOVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. IF I LIVE IN CUBA , Ex.
I CANT GO THE ARGENTINA EMBASSY and apply for a visa because my country will not let me leave. I have to apply for special permission in CUBA TO LEAVE CUBA.(this also happens in china and happend in the USSR).

In most countries as long as you have your passport you just have to apply for a visa to visit another country not to leave your own.

So assholes, stop fucking avoiding my question and answer what I AM FUCKING ASKING.

Why is it that you cant move from cuba to another country or you couldnt move from the USSR to another country or you cant move from china to another country? Yao ming is an exception in China, but they just want half of his salary, if livan hernandez would of wanted to go play in the mexican baseball leageu he would of not been allowed by cuba.

stop going around the question and idiots answer my question. :angry:

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 11:33 PM





So basically you couldtn answer my questions, so you avoided them and said they had been answered.It seems you were avoiding the questions. Ortega had to ask you several times to answer his question.

What age are you?

My question of why you cant move to another country was never answered.
Simply because, They are not needed there unless they are doctors, construction workers, ect.

WTF, what kind of answer is that. It makes no sense. SIMPLY BECUASE??????????



I never asked why escaping is a crime? it only seems to be a crime in Communist countries.
*Socialist countries. Cuba is not Communist. You fucking fool.

You fucking idiot. AVOIDING THE QUESTION AGAIN. WOW.
Socialist, yeah, okay i will admit, its not communist its, totalitarianism. AND WHY DID CHE SUPPORT A SOCIALIST, instead of supporting a true communist?


So basically you couldtn answer my questions, so you avoided them and said they had been answered.It seems you were avoiding the questions. Ortega had to ask you several times to answer his question.

So you use the excuse that i didnt answer ortega to not answer my question. AND I ALREADY ANSWERED HIS SECOND POST YOU MORON.

What age are you? 19. you?

ANswer me this, in a true communist country, would i be allowed to leave that country when i want to?

[Deniz Gezmis]

You fucking idiot. AVOIDING THE QUESTION AGAIN. WOW.
It&#39;s something i&#39;ve already answered.

ANswer me this, in a true communist country, would i be allowed to leave that country when i want to?

No. Because there is no such thing as a communist country. If you mean Socialist, It&#39;s up to what people interpretate as &#39;True socialism&#39;.


19? Rofl. :)

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 02:27 AM
You fucking idiot. AVOIDING THE QUESTION AGAIN. WOW.
It&#39;s something i&#39;ve already answered.

ANswer me this, in a true communist country, would i be allowed to leave that country when i want to?

No. Because there is no such thing as a communist country. If you mean Socialist, It&#39;s up to what people interpretate as &#39;True socialism&#39;.


19? Rofl. :)
then say its already been answered. Yes, some of you insist its not totalitarian.


b]ANswer me this, in a true communist country, would i be allowed to leave that country when i want to?

No. Because there is no such thing as a communist country. If you mean Socialist, It&#39;s up to what people interpretate as &#39;True socialism&#39;.[/b]

That is why i asked , in a true communist country, if it would exist. You didnt misunderstand the question you once again decided to avoid it.


19? Rofl. :)
?, whats your rofl for, Are you rofl because you where going to lie by saying your older than me.
Anyway, here is a quote from your post


"Death if you love cuba so much, why dont you go there to live."
1. Because i&#39;m not of legal age.
2. Because i wish to help the cause here.

What is your age then. 15?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I think Cuba is a beutiful place to live, and I just might move there after college, if I can get around the fact that the US government won&#39;t let me go there. Cubans regularly leave Cuba if they have the means to. Often times such people as sports stars are offered large contracts to leave Cuba, and many of them accept, but still, to the majority of Cubans, loyalty is outweighs greed.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 10:25 PM


Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

when you go to anoughter country you need a visa unless the two counrtys have a deal worked out like oz and nz. also many countrys have Quotas.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by euripidies+Dec 24 2003, 05:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (euripidies @ Dec 24 2003, 05:08 AM)
[email protected] 23 2003, 10:25 PM


Why does Castro , not let people move out of Cuba to another country?. Why do you need special permission (a visa) to leave the country. And why only 20,000 visas a year?

when you go to anoughter country you need a visa unless the two counrtys have a deal worked out like oz and nz. also many countrys have Quotas. [/b]
But cuba, does not allow their countries to move to any countries. they do not let you leave.

In a true coommuist society, would there be elections and some form of democracy?
also would I be allow to leave the country if i wish?

Also why does cuba have so many prostitues? because they really need the money.

Someone said the USa does not let people go to cuba.
They should allow people to go to cuba.

[Monty Cantsin]

el_profe you said "In a true communist society, would there be elections and some form of democracy?"

Now from what I’ve read the entire meaning of the words dictatorship of the proletarian ... is the suppression of the capitalist. it does not mean that it has to be a centralized state authoritarian system which controls the people to the extent of fascism or even less, tus it in my view can be democratic.

[Deniz Gezmis]

El_profe, Reading some of Marx&#39;s work before you come here blabbing the biggest load of cow excrement.

That is why i asked , in a true communist country, if it would exist. You didnt misunderstand the question you once again decided to avoid it.
There can be no Communist country, Therefore it&#39;s imposible to answer your question.

No. I&#39;m not 15, I&#39;m actually younger and do consider myself more informed than yourself.

[Maynard]

Cubans are worse off than the middle and rich class in 3rd world countries, but they are better of than the poor in 3rd world countries.



Bullshit &#33; There is hardly a middle class in any of the 3rd world nations. Cuba&#39;s standards of living rank higher than Russia, Thailand, Brazil etc. The standard of living is second behind Chile in all of Latin America. Most may not be as rich as the king of Swaziland but neither would the majority of people in all countries.


Overwhelming support for Castro in CUBA? becaue if you dont support him you go to jail
What evidence have you for this ?


.


And if you talk about those rallies on the street, eveyrone gets vacation from work to go to those, and you have repercutins if you dont go.

Evidence ? What are these repurcutions ? How do you know of them ? You should provide evidence for such claims.


Probably cause its communist and was an ally of the USSR

So all "communist" countries are "terrorist" countries. That&#39;s false.


If cubans owned cuba dont you think that their would be more than one "election" since 1960
You think having elections allows you to own your country ?


no one in latin america wants to stand up to the USA, they want to trade with them.

You are talking as if governments represent everyone. I am sure many of the working class in South America wants to stand up agaisnt the United States. Cuba wants to trade with the US also.


NOT COMMUNIST??? thats not what i have been told by many on this board, why would che support a socialist and not a communist. IF YOU dont want to call cuba communist then I would say it would fall right under totalitarianism.

Dear oh dear. You really don&#39;t understand Socialism at all. Not many on the right do, even less understand communism.


because if they dont they go to jail

Evidence ?


And why did Castro&#39;s own daughter leave Cuba, lol, lol ,lol, lol
Why has Che&#39;s own daughter stayed in Cuba lol lol lol lol ? It must be the greatest place on earth. Australia&#39;s Attorney General&#39;s daughter moved to Thailand I believe, so in your logic Australia is a horrible place because of this fact ? If Jenna Bush moved to the UK it would prove the evils of the United States to you ?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 02:46 PM

There can be no Communist country, Therefore it&#39;s imposible to answer your question.

No. I&#39;m not 15, I&#39;m actually younger and do consider myself more informed than yourself.
There cant be a communist country. Youre right cause the system always fails and you end up with countries like the USSR.

LOL. younger. Oh shit, thats the end of discussions with you.
Lol. Do you still believe in santa claus?
No wonder you totally decide to ignore the facts i give you. Although i dont think that has much to do with age , as others in this forum also have that problem.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 03:56 PM

Cubans are worse off than the middle and rich class in 3rd world countries, but they are better of than the poor in 3rd world countries.



Bullshit &#33; There is hardly a middle class in any of the 3rd world nations. Cuba&#39;s standards of living rank higher than Russia, Thailand, Brazil etc. The standard of living is second behind Chile in all of Latin America. Most may not be as rich as the king of Swaziland but neither would the majority of people in all countries.









Bullshit. their is not much middle class that is true. But the middle calss is better off than the normal cuban.



Overwhelming support for Castro in CUBA? becaue if you dont support him you go to jail
What evidence have you for this ?


.


And if you talk about those rallies on the street, eveyrone gets vacation from work to go to those, and you have repercutins if you dont go.

Evidence ? What are these repurcutions ? How do you know of them ? You should provide evidence for such claims.

Youre 10 post behind i already answered these questions. And as who told me, someone who escaped cuba 2 years ago. Also the person that escaped, their brother lost his job because of that person&#39;s action. is that fair?
As to everyone get vacation, i did not mean it literally, but yes Most workers and the kids get the day off to go and protest and they have people that check if you dont go.



Probably cause its communist and was an ally of the USSR

So all "communist" countries are "terrorist" countries. That&#39;s false.
I never said they where a terrorist country, i said tehy where communist.



If cubans owned cuba dont you think that their would be more than one "election" since 1960
You think having elections allows you to own your country ?

No. The people can decide who they want as president, im not talkin about the USA, cause everyone is going to bring up the fact he didnt win. He won the electoral and that is what counts. anyway Im not talking about the USA.
So any form of democracy should not exist. Thats nice, thats opression.



no one in latin america wants to stand up to the USA, they want to trade with them.

You are talking as if governments represent everyone. I am sure many of the working class in South America wants to stand up agaisnt the United States. Cuba wants to trade with the US also.

The gov. represents the people that elected them. So yes it represent mostly everyone. AND NOT EVERYONE IN LATIN AMERICA HATES the us like you do. WHY DO YOU THIK SO MANY GO TO THE USA to work. WHY DONT THEY GO TO CUBA if its so great??? Like the people in haiti that go to miami, cuba is closer for them, why dont they go to cuba?


because if they dont they go to jail

Evidence ?. Oh i dont know how about all the political prisoners. I already proveded a link to the human rights watch page, where they had a report on cuba. I have put this link like 5 times already here it is again.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/
and here, they had some news on cuban political prisoners. http://www.cubanet.org/cubanews.html



NOT COMMUNIST??? thats not what i have been told by many on this board, why would che support a socialist and not a communist. IF YOU dont want to call cuba communist then I would say it would fall right under totalitarianism.

Dear oh dear. You really don&#39;t understand Socialism at all. Not many on the right do, even less understand communism.

USSR and Cuba where/are known as communist countries, at least in the mainstream media and to the USA gov.
But youre right they are not. they had the intention but in the end they are/became totalitarian.



And why did Castro&#39;s own daughter leave Cuba, lol, lol ,lol, lol
Why has Che&#39;s own daughter stayed in Cuba lol lol lol lol ? It must be the greatest place on earth. Australia&#39;s Attorney General&#39;s daughter moved to Thailand I believe, so in your logic Australia is a horrible place because of this fact ? If Jenna Bush moved to the UK it would prove the evils of the United States to you ?
Che&#39;s daughter who gives a shit about her, it&#39;s not like she was the dictator&#39;s daughter. SHE also lost her dad, so cuba might of been the only plcae she could go.
As to the attorney general&#39;s daugher: SHE DID NOT HAVE TO WEAR A WIG AND USE A FALSE SPANISH PASSPORT TO GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY, LIKE CASTRO&#39;s daughter had to, funny how she was not allowed to leave so she had to wear a disguise and use a fakde passport LOL to that.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by el_profe+Dec 24 2003, 07:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Dec 24 2003, 07:25 PM)
[email protected] 24 2003, 02:46 PM

There can be no Communist country, Therefore it&#39;s imposible to answer your question.

No. I&#39;m not 15, I&#39;m actually younger and do consider myself more informed than yourself.
There cant be a communist country. Youre right cause the system always fails and you end up with countries like the USSR.

LOL. younger. Oh shit, thats the end of discussions with you.
Lol. Do you still believe in santa claus?
No wonder you totally decide to ignore the facts i give you. Although i dont think that has much to do with age , as others in this forum also have that problem. [/b]
Ageism is a wonderful thing. Communism is stateless, Therefore your correct. There can never be a communist country. Thanks for agreeing.
Read about Marxism before you make yourself look like a bigger idiot.