Log in

View Full Version : marx was not a marxist - article on the publication of the complete marx/engels works



Sasha
20th April 2012, 16:30
this is a (at times rather crude) translation i made of a fairly intresting article published a few week ago in the dutch intelectual left-wing weekly "de groene amsterdammer" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Groene_Amsterdammer), i'll include the original in spoilertags below.
note that i only translated it, i'm not the original author and as such also dont nescecairly agree with all opinons expressed in it, i do hope this can spark some interesting discussion


Marx was not a Marxist- Dusted off and rehabilitated
Karl Marx - The new writings and the current crisis

Aart Brouwer

After a hundred years of wandering the collected works of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are finnaly being pubished in a scientific way. This summer five new sections appear. Once again it becomes clear that Marx was anything but a Marxist.

"The craziest speculation in railways, banks, housing, unprecedented expansion of the credit system, et cetera," wrote Karl Marx in August 1852 in his distinctive, summary style to his friend Friedrich Engels: "Is this not “approaching crisis”?" Some months previously he wrote in The New York Tribune, which he spent ten years for as the European correspondent that 'the more excess capital in industrial production comes together, the longer and harder the mass of workers is affected.

Among the letters, notes and fragments in the archives of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are many more such texts that seem to point forward to the financial crisis of today. The systematic retrieval of it, hoever took a hundred years to come. Because the irony of history knows no boundaries, most of the pieces are currently owned by an insurance firm that invests in financial derivatives. Since 1990, the Reaal Insurance owns a thirds of the manuscripts, proofs, letters and memos from both men, even icluding the little scary woman drawings that English used to scribble in the margins of proofs.

The pieces are in the vaults of the International Institute of Social History (IISH) in Amsterdam, that they have on loan from Reaal. This exponent of late-capitalist culture of greed is also exemplary with his property. The photocopies of all documents can be freely consulted and published (the copyrights have long expired) while the maintaining of the collection is literally and figuratively assured. Before it came so far the Marx-Engels Nachlass had to endure many borders crossed and ideological somersaults through.

It started with the fact that the first owners were not interested in the content. After their deaths the archives of Marx and Engels where placed with the German Social Democratic Party, the spd. The Social Democratic leaders and ideologists could not agree on an appropriate destination, let alone a complete edition. They took records home and published excerpts that fitted their own political naritive. In essence, the duo was already before the turn of the century exposed to the "gnawing criticism of mice," a metaphor from their own Critique of Political Ökonomie.

Shortly before the Second World War, the archive was purchased by the Central Labor Life Insurance Company in Amsterdam. One of the objectives of this cooperation was to promote the cultural interests of the labor movement. The 'Central' also bought the archives of other leaders of the German labor movement such as August Bebel, Eduard Bernstein and Wilhelm Liebknecht, of who the spd rightly feared that under the Hitler regime their archives were not safe, as well as archives of runaway Russian communists, Spanish radicals and other leftist activists and movements in the thirties in the throng. All that material was placed in the IISH established in 1935.

The driving force behind this acquisition strategy was the founder and first director of the Institute, the historian Nicholas Posthumus. He took into account all eventualities. While three-quarters of the Netherlands was lulled to sleep about Hitler's intentions, he foresaw that sooner or later Germany would invade its neighbors. The Amsterdam collection was unique and for some very topical and should under no circumstances fall into the hands of the Gestapo. After the debacle of Munich in 1938 the last straw was reached for Posthumus. He opened a branch in Oxford and kept the main material there.

It became very close or the Marx-Engels-collection had ended up in Russia, says IISH currator Huub Sanders: "The spd operated after 1933 from Prague, then Paris and finally London. The leadership tried as much as possible to transfer archives to Prague and partly to Copenhagen. A precarious undertaking. Part of the material was to be smuggled across the border in rolls of wallpaper. The party in exile, however, had enormous lack of money. In desperation they decided to sell the archives. The Marx-Engels collection they wanted to sell to Moscow. It shows how desperate the Prague exiles were. The relationship with the Russian Communists was extremely bad, as they had opposed and denounced the social democrats in the thirties in all areas as "social fascists". “

Yet there was a precedent. The first attempt to a complete edition of the manuscripts of Marx and Engels was made by David Borisovich Goldendach, a Russian communist who at the time of the Tsars had adopted the pseudonym Riazanov. The autodidact Riazanov had caused quite a stir within the Russian Communist movement by to proclaim a theory of "permanent revolution" later elaborated by Trotsky. But he was especially obsessed with the textual legacy of Marx and Engels. As an exile in London Riazanov buried himself in the British Museum and collected clippings and copies of all articles and letters that had sepperated his heroes to the rest of the Anglo-Saxon press. In the revolutionary year of 1917 he managed to get his collection published even earning him the title of "Marxist archivist”.

This Riazanov founded in 1921 the Marx-Engels Institute in Moscow and laid the groundwork for a 42-piece edition of the collected works. The printing was outsourced to publishers in Frankfurt and Berlin. Riazanovs Marx-Engels Gesamtausgabe contained texts such as the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts (1844) and Die Deutsche Ideology (1845-46). Yet no blessings rested on his company.

"Not the seizure of power by Hitler, but the Stalinist terror of the thirties brought it to an end," says Gerald Hubmann, curator of the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of Sciences that these days provides the complete critical edition of the estate. "The Russian dictator wanted to publish his own edition to strengthen his ideological position. Passages in Marx's writings on the necessity of freedom of expression and other explosive issues were taking out as absolutely not useful. Because they still published such texts against Stalin's wishes Riazanov and other employees of the Moskouer institute where dismissed, eventually thrown out of the party and often murdered. Riazanov got shot in 1938 after a mock trial as a "Trotskyist traitor".“

In the same year IISH Director Posthumus got wind of the negotiations between the German Social Democrats in exile and Moscow. Again he showed great foresight. Not only in Berlin, also in Moscow the archives would be inaccessible to researchers. And there it would be also subject to manipulation, this time by authorities who imagined themselves the immediate successors of Marx and Engels. Posthumus managed to get funds from the Central, bought the Marx-Engels archive and had it shipped to Oxford. There it lay safely under lock and key during the war.



After the safe return of the collection in Amsterdam the Eastern bloc still tried to pull the legacy towards them. The various Sotsjinenija ("Complete works") that the Moskouer Marx-Engels Institute issued, were unilateral anthologies. The reader looked in vain for Die Politik des Auswärtige russischen Zarentums, a series of newspaper articles by Engles about two hundred years of Tsarist foreign policy. This policy came out to have embarrising similairities to Stalin's policy of "socialism in one country '. The military-historic papers by Engels, which were little flattering on the Russian military, were also missing.

The East Germans published between 1956 and 1968 their own collection, but their Marx Engels Werke were modeled after (and sometimes literally copied from) the Sotsjinenija. The 41 parts were top-heavy due to the long introductions in which the reader was pre-chewed how he had to interpret the texts. While they contain as a bonus 4170 letters of Marx and Engels to contemporaries they lacked the around ten thousand return letters from those that recieved them at the time so that the required context was missing. Early texts such as the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts were omitted and were only after years of protests added as a separate band.

Meanwhile in the West, there was hardly any interest in the original writings, although they were up for grabs in Amsterdam. "Not only the German Republic remained in default, for never considering a serious publication but this was also true for the Netherlands where two thirds of the material was based and Great Britain where Marx spend a great part of his life, "said Hubmann.

"It's really bizarre that an important archive for a century could not be properly indexed and published", says curator Huub Sanders. "on the other hand, that is understandable. It is not because the ideas where dead and burried, but exactly because so many parties involved would claim it for themselves. "The result was that the latter Eastern European version of the Marx-Engels-Gesamtausgabe (mega), naturally became the gold standard. "Generations interested, also in the West, grew up with it," said Hubmann. "And how unbelievable it may sound, it was sometimes German translations from the Russian - as if there were no original German texts. It was stated plainly on the back cover: translated from Russian. "

The publication of the material remains even today a laborious chore. It is not a question of more or less rounded completed texts. When Karl Kautsky asked him in 1881, two years before his death, if it was not time to pusblish his books integrally, Marx said, "I would then first have to write them." Almost the entire collection consists of unfinished manuscripts, notes and rough plans or sketches for books, which the men then in numerous letters to friends supplemented with - sometimes very important - commentaries. Among the records there are only already two hundred notebooks full of summaries of Marx – alternately written in classical Greek, Latin, German, English, French, Italian, Russian and Spanish - from books he had read. These summaries and commentaries that he wrote show what topics he worked on and sometimes what his intentions were with it.



This summer five new parts of the series appear. The publication date is not yet known, but the manuscript is going in a few weeks to the printer. "a advanced warning, it will be full of botanical drawings and physics notes, 'laughs Hubmann. Those who thought that Marx was firstly philosopher, economist and political activist, will have to acknowledge that he was primarily a versatile researcher, perhaps the most universal German scholar after Leibniz. At the end of his life, when the whole labor movement had his name on its lips and his pamphlets from Detroit to Calcutta were read and commented, Marx immersed himself in a broad, if not encyclopedic interest in different topics: biology, geology, even the first developments in nuclear physics.

The pioneering studies of Lothar Meyer on the periodic table, the founder of the photochemistry Henry Roscoe, of botanist Carl fraas - Marx durchgeackert them all. He was especially a great lover of mathematics. The study of mathematical problems, he wrote, was his 'last resort' when financial and personal entanglements threatened to grow above his head. This intellectual curiosity got ivariably the better of his doctrinal tendencies says Hubmann: "Marx never wanted to found a" -ism". He was anything but a Marxist, as he once said. Out of the economic texts rises for example a very different Marx than the political economist who we think we know of Das Kapital. We already knew that it was only the first part of that book he wrote himself. Parts two and three are delivered posthumously by Engels, who made a selection from the manuscripts at his disposal. The same manuscripts that we have now. And we must conclude that English - probably with the best intentions – missed the ball a lot. "

"Engls has been a tad too wild', agrees Marcel van der Linden, research director at the Institute. "Marx wrote the outline for the complete book, but stumbled in the development of part two and three on big problems." Actually even the first part needed to be rewritten all over also, Marx wrote to Russian friends. "A deeply tragic moment," says the editor of the new edition Karl-Erich Vollgraff. "You could say that Marx lost the courage, that he doubted his life's work." The main issue that he did not resolve for himself was whether the collapse of capitalism was inevitable.

Engels in contrast steered in his posthumous reconstruction exactly towards that. Thus it happened, writes the Italian Marxist scholar Marcello Musto, that Marx's theory of a Kritik became a Weltanschauung. This happend partly under pressure from the competition. Even during Marx's life, his work was pushed forward as a supplement or even as a synthesis of positivism and social Darwinism, two schools of choice who were fundamentally deterministic. Socialism, as many supporters believed, could not stay behind at that bourgeois determinism. After Marx's death they knocked impatiently at Engels his door with the question of when the rest of Das Kapital was comming and above all the proof that the capitalist system would inevitably collapse. Some were convinced that somewhere in Marx's paper a mathematical formula for the downfall of capitalism was to be found.

Because his eyes were too bad to even be able to read the manuscripts, English dictated the last part from his head to his secretary Oskar Garten. In it he let his old friend "prove" afterall that socialism had a scientific basis, similar to the natural sciences. The classless society was the inevitable end of history, the method of dialectical and historical materialism elevated to dogma. Marx would not have endorsed that, says Musto. "History does nothing," he had in 1845 written in The Sacred Family: "History is not, so to speak, a single person who uses humans to achieve its goals, history is nothing but the activity of people who have their own goals. " Engels himself would later suffer the same fate, his text Die Rolle der Gewalt in der Geschichte, got published so mangeled by the German Social Democrat Bernstein that little remained of the original.

Only after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 it became possible to published the texts responsively, but for political reasons the funds for it where not easily to be found. Leading German newspapers mocked the "mega-lomania 'and a minister of the new, reunified Germany called out on a whim:" Marx is dead and Jesus lives! "The international circle of Marx-experts and historians of the labor movement was not deterred. The IISG joined forces with the Karl Marx House in Marx's birthplace, Trier, the Friedrich Ebert Foundation of the spd and the Russian State Archive for Socio-Political History in Moscow. Together they founded the International Marx-Engels Foundation (IMES), who took it up them to provide for a reissue on modern linguistic and historical-critical grounds. Since then in the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy Wessi and Ossi, supported by a major international academic staff, fraternal work on what in academic circles has become known as the mega2. Publisher is the prestigious Akademie Verlag who also publish Aristotle, Wilhelm Leibniz, Ludwig Feuerbach and Heinrich Heine. Finally the duo finds itself in good company.

Of the planned 114 parts sixty appeared now, including all manuscripts and notes relating to Das Kapital. The remaining parts will contain, all other letters, notes and studies of both men. And those divisions are much larger than the first. "In summary, you must say that Marx was much broader in his outlook and much more flexible in his thinking than long has been heralded in Eastern Europe and also in the West," said Hubmann. "The so-called bible of historical materialism, Die deutsche Ideology, not even existed in that form. It was a hodgepodge of fragments in which Marx and Engels critzised contemporaries such as Ludwig Feuerbach, Max Stirner and Bruno Bauer. At the very end, they made some notes on "Being and consciousness" that they never published. "Marxism" had the texts canonized so it seemed that Marx believed that the economic foundations of society - all of the ownership and production relations in society - determines how people think, what they believe, how they will behave. "

Marx at the end of his life studied the role of shares in the capitalist economy. "first attempts to that you can find allready in the first volume of Das Kapital," says Van der Linden. "Marx writes that the cyclical crises of capitalism always start in the financial sector." In later segments he awarded an almost autonomous role to speculative capital. "He collected data on the American railroads, the function of shares capital in the U.S. economy and how the real economy became increasingly dependent on credit," said Hubmann. "this could be regarded as a prediction of today's financial crisis, but then you fall back into the trap of determinism. Marx described and analyzed, he did not pretend to uncover irrefutable laws. "

The last part of the mega2 should appear in 2015, but the editors and authors are short in time and hands. "You must not think that like in Stalin's time we will halfway just stop," said Hubmann. "If the funding dries up unexpectedly soon, we all know what will happen," says Sanders. "Then the rest is put on the web. The IISG started already a few years ago to digitize its entire collection. "The contract between the IISG and Reaal, the legal successor of the 'Central', was renewed in 2008 and it was agreed that the entire collection whas to be made digitally available. Then, thanks to modern technology, every shred will be wrestled from te critique of the mice for good, but still remain largely complete without context.

With some goodwill, you could call that outcome dialectical. Marx has been claimed by so many nasty regimes and antidemocratic movements that after the fall of the Berlin Wall he was put to the historical trashheap by many. Now that he is brought back in in connection with the global financial crisis, he appears to have been another person than we always thought. Whether this "new" Marx still is useful for political purposes, anyone should decide for them self. Perhaps his late conversion to the natural sciences contains his main message to mankind. Who wants to change the world, will need to know how it originated, how humans as a species have evolved and what his natural abilities and limitations are. In short, the first task of a materialist is thorough investigation of the matter. As he wrote in Die Deutsche Ideology: "Without the sciences, philosophy is no longer conceivable."




Afgestoft en gerehabiliteerd Karl Marx -
De nieuwe geschriften en de huidige crisis

Aart Brouwer (http://www.groene.nl/zoek?search=&search_author=Aart%20Brouwer)

Na een omzwerving van honderd jaar wordt het verzameld werk van Karl Marx en Friedrich Engels eindelijk wetenschappelijk verantwoord uitgegeven. Deze zomer verschijnen vijf nieuwe delen. Opnieuw blijkt dat Marx allesbehalve een marxist was.


‘DE DOLSTE speculaties in railways, banks, huizenbouw, ongehoorde expansie van het kredietstelsel et cetera’, schreef Karl Marx in augustus 1852 in zijn kenmerkende, summiere stijl aan zijn vriend Friedrich Engels: ‘Is dat niet approaching crisis?’ Enige maanden eerder schreef hij in The New York Tribune, waarvan hij tien jaar lang de Europese correspondent was, dat ‘hoe meer overtollig kapitaal in de industriële productie samenkomt, hoe langer en harder de massa van arbeiders erdoor wordt getroffen’.
Onder de brieven, notities en fragmenten in het archief van Karl Marx en Friedrich Engels bevinden zich meer van zulke teksten die vooruit lijken te wijzen naar de financiële crisis van vandaag. De systematische ontsluiting ervan heeft echter honderd jaar op zich laten wachten. Omdat de ironie van de geschiedenis geen grenzen kent, zijn de meeste stukken tegenwoordig eigendom van een verzekeringsmaatschappij die stevig in financiële derivaten investeert. Sinds 1990 is Reaal Verzekeringen de eigenaar van tweederde van de manuscripten, drukproeven, brieven en kattebelletjes van beide mannen, tot en met de kwaadaardige vrouwengezichtjes die Engels in de marge van drukproeven placht te krabbelen.
De stukken liggen in de kluis van het Internationaal Instituut voor Sociale Geschiedenis (iisg) in Amsterdam, dat ze van Reaal in bruikleen heeft. Deze exponent van de laat-kapitalistische graaicultuur gaat overigens voorbeeldig om met zijn bezit. De fotokopieën van alle stukken kunnen vrijelijk worden geraadpleegd en gepubliceerd (de auteursrechten zijn al lang vervallen) terwijl het behoud van de collectie letterlijk en figuurlijk verzekerd is. Voordat het zo ver kwam, heeft de Marx-Engels Nachlaß heel wat landsgrenzen overschreden en ideologische buitelingen doorstaan.
Het begon er al mee dat de eerste bezitters niet geïnteresseerd waren in de inhoud. Na hun dood werden de archieven van Marx en Engels ondergebracht bij de Duitse sociaal-democratische partij, de spd. De sociaal-democratische leiders en ideologen konden het niet eens worden over een passende bestemming, laat staan een integrale uitgave. Ze namen op eigen gezag archiefstukken mee naar huis en publiceerden fragmenten die in hun politieke kraam te pas kwamen. In wezen was het duo al voor de vorige eeuwwisseling blootgesteld aan de ‘knagende kritiek der muizen’, om een metafoor uit Zur Kritik der politischen Ökonomie te gebruiken.
Kort voor de Tweede Wereldoorlog werd het archief opgekocht door de Centrale Arbeiders Levensverzekerings Maatschappij in Amsterdam. Een van de doelstellingen van deze coöperatie was de bevordering van de culturele belangen van de arbeidersbeweging. De ‘Centrale’ kocht ook archieven van andere voormannen van de Duitse arbeidersbeweging zoals August Bebel, Eduard Bernstein en Wilhelm Liebknecht, waarvan de spd terecht vreesde dat ze onder het Hitler-bewind niet veilig waren, alsmede archieven van gevluchte Russische communisten, Spaanse radicalen en andere linkse activisten en bewegingen die in de jaren dertig in het gedrang kwamen. Al dat materiaal werd ondergebracht in het in 1935 opgerichte iisg.
Drijvende kracht achter deze aankoopstrategie was de initiatiefnemer en eerste directeur van het instituut, de historicus Nicolaas Posthumus. Deze hield rekening met alle eventualiteiten. Terwijl driekwart van Nederland zich omtrent Hitlers bedoelingen in slaap liet sussen, voorzag hij dat Duitsland vroeg of laat zijn buurlanden zou binnenvallen. De Amsterdamse collectie was uniek en voor een deel zeer actueel en mocht onder geen beding in handen van de Gestapo vallen. Na het debacle van München in 1938 was voor Posthumus de maat vol. Hij opende een dependance in Oxford en liet het belangrijkste materiaal daarheen overbrengen.
Het had weinig gescheeld of de Marx-Engels-collectie was in Rusland terechtgekomen, vertelt iisg-curator Huub Sanders: ‘De spd opereerde na 1933 vanuit Praag, daarna Parijs en ten slotte Londen. De leiding liet zo veel mogelijk archieven overbrengen naar Praag en gedeeltelijk ook naar Kopenhagen. Een hachelijke onderneming. Een deel van het materiaal moest in behangrollen over de grens worden gesmokkeld. De partij in ballingschap had echter enorm geldgebrek. In arren moede besloot men de archieven van de hand te doen. De Marx-Engels-collectie wilde men verkopen aan Moskou. Het geeft wel aan hoe wanhopig de Praagse ballingen waren. De relatie met de Russische communisten was buitengewoon slecht omdat ze de sociaal-democraten in de jaren dertig op alle gebieden hadden tegengewerkt en als “sociaal-fascisten” verketterd.’
Toch was er een precedent. De eerste die een poging had gedaan tot een volledige uitgave van de manuscripten van Marx en Engels was David Borisovitsj Goldendach, een Russische communist die in de tsarentijd de schuilnaam Riazanov had aangenomen. De autodidact Riazanov had opzien gebaard binnen de Russische communistische beweging door een theorie van de ‘permanente revolutie’ te verkondigen die later door Trotski werd uitgewerkt. Maar hij was vooral geobsedeerd door de tekstuele nalatenschap van Marx en Engels. Als balling in Londen had Riazanov zich in het British Museum ingegraven en knipsels en afschriften verzameld van alle artikelen en ingezonden brieven die zijn helden aan de Angelsaksische pers hadden afgescheiden. In het revolutiejaar 1917 wist hij die verzameling zelfs gepubliceerd te krijgen, hetgeen hem de titel van ‘marxistisch archivaris’ bezorgde.
Deze Riazanov stichtte in 1921 het Marx-Engels Instituut in Moskou en legde de basis voor een 42-delige uitgave van het verzameld werk. De druk werd uitbesteed aan uitgevers in Frankfurt am Main en Berlijn. Riazanovs Marx-Engels-Gesamtausgabe bevatte onder meer teksten als de Öko*nomisch-philosophische Manuskripte (1844) en Die Deutsche Ideologie (1845-46). Er rustte echter geen zegen op zijn onderneming.
‘Niet de machtsovername door Hitler, maar de Stalin-terreur van de jaren dertig maakte er een einde aan’, zegt Gerald Hubmann, curator van de Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften die deze dagen de volledige, tekstkritische uitgave van de nalatenschap bezorgt. ‘De Russische dictator wilde zijn eigen uitgave verzorgen om zijn ideologische positie te versterken. Passages in Marx’ geschriften over de noodzaak van de vrijheid van meningsuiting en andere explosieve kwesties kwamen daarbij absoluut niet van pas. Omdat ze zulke teksten tegen Stalins zin toch publiceerden, werden Riazanov en andere medewerkers van het Moskouer instituut ontslagen, uit de partij gegooid en uiteindelijk vaak vermoord. Riazanov werd in 1938 na een schertsproces als “trotskistisch landverrader” doodgeschoten.’
In datzelfde jaar kreeg iisg-directeur Posthumus lucht van de onderhandelingen tussen de Duitse sociaal-democraten in ballingschap en Moskou. Opnieuw toonde hij een vooruitziende blik. Niet alleen in Berlijn, ook in Moskou zou het archief ontoegankelijk voor onderzoekers zijn. En ook daar zou het onderhevig zijn aan manipulatie, ditmaal door autoriteiten die zich directe opvolgers van Marx en Engels waanden. Posthumus wist bij de Centrale geld los te peuteren, kocht het Marx-Engels archief en liet het naar Oxford verschepen. Daar lag het gedurende de oorlog veilig achter slot en grendel.

Na de behouden terugkeer van de verzameling in Amsterdam trachtte het Oostblok alsnog de erfenis naar zich toe te trekken. De diverse Sotsjinenija (‘Complete werken’) die het Moskouer Marx-Engels Instituut uitgaf, waren eenzijdige bloemlezingen. De lezer zocht tevergeefs naar Die auswärtige Politik des russischen Zarentums, een serie dagbladartikelen van Engels over tweehonderd jaar tsaristische buitenlandse politiek. Die politiek bleek pijnlijke overeenkomsten te hebben met Stalins beleid van ‘socialisme in één land’. De militair-historische verhandelingen van Engels, die weinig complimenteus waren voor het Russische krijgswezen, ontbraken eveneens.
De Oost-Duitsers bezorgden tussen 1956 en 1968 een eigen uitgave, maar hun Marx Engels Werke waren gemodelleerd naar (en soms letterlijk overgenomen van) de Sotsjinenija. De 41 delen waren topzwaar dankzij de lange introducties waarin de lezer werd voorgekauwd hoe hij de teksten moest interpreteren. Ze bevatten als extraatje weliswaar 4170 brieven van Marx en Engels aan tijdgenoten, maar niet de rond tienduizend brieven van die tijdgenoten aan hen, zodat de vereiste context ontbrak. Vroege teksten als de Ökonomisch-philosophische Manuskripte waren weggelaten en werden pas na jarenlange protesten als afzonderlijke band toegevoegd.
Intussen bestond er in het Westen nauwelijks belangstelling voor de oorspronkelijke geschriften, hoewel die in Amsterdam voor het grijpen lagen. ‘Niet alleen de Bondsrepubliek bleef in gebreke door nooit een serieuze uitgave te overwegen. Dat gold ook voor Nederland waar tweederde van het materiaal berustte of voor Groot-Brittannië waar Marx een groot deel van zijn leven heeft doorgebracht’, zegt Hubmann.
‘Het is eigenlijk bizar dat een zo belangrijk archief gedurende een eeuw niet fatsoenlijk kon worden ontsloten en uitgegeven’, beaamt curator Huub Sanders. ‘Anderzijds is dat wel begrijpelijk. Het komt niet doordat het morsdood was, maar doordat zoveel partijen het voor zichzelf wilden claimen.’ Het gevolg was dat de laatste Oost-Europese versie, de Marx-Engels-Gesamtausgabe (mega), als vanzelf de gouden standaard werd. ‘Generaties belangstellenden, ook in het Westen, zijn ermee opgegroeid’, zegt Hubmann. ‘En hoe onvoorstelbaar het ook klinkt, het waren soms Duitse vertalingen uit het Russisch – alsof er geen oorspronkelijke Duitse teksten bestonden. Het stond onverbloemd op de achterkaft: vertaald uit het Russisch.’
De uitgave van het materiaal blijft ook nu nog een moeizaam karwei. Er is namelijk geen sprake van min of meer afgeronde teksten. Toen Karl Kautsky hem in 1881, twee jaar voor zijn dood, vroeg of het geen tijd werd zijn boeken integraal uit te geven, antwoordde Marx: ‘Dan zou ik ze eerst eens moeten schrijven.’ Bijna de hele collectie bestaat uit onafgemaakte manuscripten, notities en aanzetten of plannen voor boeken, die de heren dan weer in talloze brieven aan vrienden voorzagen van – soms zeer belangwekkend – commentaar. Onder de archiefstukken bevinden zich alleen al tweehonderd notitieboekjes van Marx vol samenvattingen – afwisselend in het klassiek Grieks, Latijn, Duits, Engels, Frans, Italiaans, Russisch en Spaans geschreven – van boeken die hij had gelezen. Die samenvattingen en de commentaren die hij erbij schreef laten zien met welke onderwerpen hij zich bezighield en soms ook wat zijn bedoelingen ermee waren.

deze zomer verschijnen vijf nieuwe delen van de serie. De publicatiedatum is nog niet bekend, maar het manuscript gaat over enkele weken naar de drukker. ‘Ik waarschuw maar vast, het staat vol met botanische tekeningen en natuurkundige notities’, lacht Hubmann. Degenen die dachten dat Marx in de eerste plaats filosoof, econoom of politiek activist was, zullen moeten erkennen dat hij in de eerste plaats een veelzijdig onderzoeker was, misschien wel de grootste universele Duitse geleerde na Leibniz. Op het laatst van zijn leven, toen de hele arbeidersbeweging zijn naam op de lippen had en zijn pamfletten van Detroit tot Calcutta werden gelezen en becommentarieerd, ontplooide Marx een brede, om niet te zeggen encyclopedische belangstelling voor heel andere onderwerpen: biologie, geologie, zelfs de eerste ontwikkelingen in de kernfysica.
De baanbrekende studies van Lothar Meyer over het periodiek systeem, van de grondlegger van de fotochemie Henry Roscoe, van botanicus Carl Fraas – Marx heeft ze allemaal durch*geackert. Hij was vooral een groot liefhebber van de wiskunde. De studie van mathematische problemen, schreef hij, was zijn ‘laatste toevlucht’ wanneer financiële en persoonlijke verwikkelingen hem boven het hoofd dreigden te groeien. Die intellectuele nieuwsgierigheid won het steevast van zijn doctrinaire neigingen, meent Hubmann: ‘Marx wilde geen “isme” stichten. Hij was allesbehalve een marxist, zoals hij ooit zei. Uit de economische teksten verrijst bijvoorbeeld een andere Marx dan de politieke econoom die we menen te kennen van Das Kapital. We wisten al dat hij alleen het eerste deel van dat boek zelf heeft geschreven. De delen twee en drie zijn postuum bezorgd door Engels, die daarvoor een selectie maakte uit de handschriften waarover hij beschikte. Over die handschriften beschikken wij nu ook. En we moeten concluderen dat Engels – waarschijnlijk met de beste bedoelingen – de plank flink missloeg.’
‘Engels is een tikkeltje te wild geweest’, beaamt Marcel van der Linden, onderzoeks*directeur bij het iisg. ‘Marx had het schrijfplan voor het boek opgesteld, maar stuitte bij het uitwerken van deel twee en drie op grote problemen.’ Eigenlijk moest het eerste deel ook helemaal over, schreef Marx aan Russische vrienden. ‘Een diep-tragisch moment’, meent redacteur van de nieuwe uitgave Karl-Erich Vollgraff. ‘Je zou kunnen zeggen dat Marx de moed verloor, dat hij twijfelde aan zijn levenswerk.’ De belangrijkste kwestie waar hij niet uitkwam was de vraag of de ondergang van het kapitalisme onvermijdelijk was.
Engels stuurde daar in zijn postume reconstructie juist op aan. Zo kon het gebeuren, schrijft de Italiaanse Marx-kenner Marcello Musto, dat Marx’ leer van een Kritik veranderde in een Weltanschauung. Dat gebeurde deels onder druk van de concurrentie. Nog tijdens Marx’ leven werd zijn werk naar voren geschoven als aanvulling of zelfs als synthese van het positivisme en het sociaal-darwinisme, twee stromingen die bij uitstek deterministisch waren. Het socialisme, zo meenden veel aanhangers, kon bij dat burgerlijke determinisme niet achterblijven. Na Marx’ dood klopten zij ongeduldig aan bij Engels met de vraag waar het vervolg van Das Kapital bleef en vooral het bewijs dat de kapitalistische orde onvermijdelijk moest instorten. Sommigen waren ervan overtuigd dat zich ergens in Marx’ papieren een wiskundige formule voor de ondergang van het kapitalisme moest bevinden.
Omdat zijn ogen te slecht werden om de handschriften nog te kunnen lezen, dicteerde Engels het laatste deel uit het hoofd aan zijn secretaris Oskar Eisengarten. Daarin liet hij zijn oude vriend alsnog ‘bewijzen’ dat het socialisme een wetenschappelijke grondslag had, vergelijkbaar met de natuurwetenschappen. De klassenloze maatschappij werd als onvermijdelijk einde van de geschiedenis voorgesteld, de methode van het dialectisch en historisch materialisme tot dogma verheven. Marx zou dat niet hebben onderschreven, meent Musto. ‘De geschiedenis doet niks’, had hij in 1845 geschreven in Die Heilige Familie: ‘De geschiedenis is niet, om zo te zeggen, een afzonderlijke persoon die gebruik maakt van de mens om zijn doelen te bereiken; de geschiedenis is niets anders dan de activiteit van mensen die hun eigen doeleinden nastreven.’ Overigens viel Engels later hetzelfde lot ten deel; zijn tekst Die Rolle der Gewalt in der Geschichte werd door de Duitse sociaal-democraat Bernstein zo verwrongen uitgegeven dat er van het origineel weinig overbleef.
Pas na de val van de Muur in 1989 werd het mogelijk de teksten verantwoord uit te geven, maar om politieke redenen lagen de fondsen niet voor het oprapen. In toonaangevende Duitse kranten werd de spot gedreven met de ‘mega-lomanie’ en een minister van het nieuwe, herenigde Duitsland riep in een opwelling: ‘Marx is dood en Jezus leeft!’ De internationale kring van Marx-deskundigen en historici van de arbeidersbeweging liet zich niet afschrikken. Het iisg sloeg de handen ineen met het Karl Marx Huis in Marx’ geboorteplaats Trier, de Friedrich Ebert Stichting van de spd en het Russische Staatsarchief voor Sociaal-Politieke Geschiedenis in Moskou. Gezamenlijk richtten ze de Internationale Marx-Engels-Stichting (imes) op, die zorg moest dragen voor een heruitgave op moderne taalkundige en historisch-kritische leest. Sindsdien werken op de Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie Wessi’s en Ossi’s, ondersteund door een grote internationale wetenschappelijke staf, broederlijk samen aan wat in vakkringen de mega2 is gaan heten. Uitgever is de gerenommeerde Akademie Verlag die ook Aristoteles, Wilhelm Leibniz, Ludwig Feuerbach en Heinrich Heine uitgeeft. Eindelijk verkeert het duo in goed gezelschap.
Van de geplande 114 delen zijn er nu zestig verschenen, waaronder alle manuscripten en notities die betrekking hebben op Das Kapital. De resterende delen zullen alle overige brieven, notities en voorstudies van beide mannen bevatten. En die afdelingen zijn heel wat omvangrijker dan de eerste twee. ‘Samenvattend moet je zeggen dat Marx veel breder georiënteerd en veel buigzamer in zijn denken was dan in het Oostblok en ook lange tijd in het Westen is verkondigd’, aldus Hubmann. ‘De zogenaamde bijbel van het historisch materialisme, Die deutsche Ideologie, bestond in die vorm niet eens. Het was een samenraapsel van fragmenten waarin Marx en Engels tijdgenoten als Ludwig Feuerbach, Max Stirner en Bruno Bauer kritiseren. Helemaal aan het eind maakten ze enige aantekeningen over “Zijn en bewustzijn” die ze echter nooit hebben gepubliceerd. Het “marxisme” heeft die teksten gecanoniseerd zodat het leek of Marx meende dat de economische onderbouw van een samenleving – het geheel van de bezits- en productieverhoudingen in de maatschappij – bepaalt hoe mensen denken, wat ze geloven, hoe ze zich zullen gedragen.’
Marx maakte op het eind van zijn leven een studie van de rol van aandelen in de kapitalistische economie. ‘Aanzetten daartoe vind je al in het eerste deel van Das Kapital’, zegt Van der Linden. ‘Marx schrijft daar dat de cyclische crises van het kapitalisme altijd beginnen in de financiële sector.’ In latere fragmenten kent hij een bijna autonome rol toe aan het speculatieve kapitaal. ‘Hij verzamelde gegevens over de Amerikaanse spoorwegen, over de functie van het aandelenkapitaal in de Amerikaanse economie en de wijze waarop de reële economie toenemend afhankelijk werd van krediet’, aldus Hubmann. ‘Dat zou je kunnen beschouwen als een voorspelling van de hedendaagse financiële crisis, maar dan trap je weer in de val van het determinisme. Marx beschreef en analyseerde, hij pretendeerde niet onomstotelijke wetmatigheden bloot te leggen.’
Het laatste deel van de mega2 moet in 2015 verschijnen, maar de samenstellers en auteurs komen tijd en handen te kort. ‘Je moet er niet aan denken dat we net als in Stalins tijd halverwege blijven steken’, zegt Hubmann. ‘Als de financiering straks onverhoopt stopt, weten we allemaal wat er gaat gebeuren’, zegt Sanders. ‘Dan wordt de rest op het web gezet. Het iisg is al enkele jaren geleden begonnen met het digitaliseren van zijn complete collectie.’ Het contract tussen het iisg en Reaal, de rechtsopvolger van de ‘Centrale’, is in 2008 vernieuwd en daarbij is afgesproken dat de gehele collectie digitaal beschikbaar wordt gesteld. Dan zal dankzij de moderne techniek elke snipper voorgoed aan de kritiek der muizen ontrukt worden, maar toch weer grotendeels zonder context blijven.
Met enige goede wil zou je die uitkomst dialectisch kunnen noemen. Marx is door zoveel nare regimes en antidemocratische bewegingen opgeëist dat hij na de val van de Berlijnse Muur bij het historisch grofvuil werd gezet. Nu hij weer te voorschijn wordt gehaald in verband met de wereldwijde financiële crisis blijkt hij een ander te zijn geweest dan we altijd dachten. Of die ‘nieuwe’ Marx alsnog voor politieke doeleinden bruikbaar is, mag iedereen zelf weten. Misschien bevatte zijn late bekering tot de natuurwetenschappen wel zijn belangrijkste boodschap aan de mens. Wie de wereld wil veranderen, zal moeten weten hoe deze is ontstaan, hoe de mens als soort zich heeft ontwikkeld en wat zijn natuurlijke mogelijkheden en begrenzingen zijn. Kortom, de eerste taak van een materialist is diepgaand onderzoek van de materie. Zoals hij al in Die Deutsche Ideologie schreef: ‘Zonder de exacte wetenschappen is filosofie niet meer denkbaar.’

Book O'Dead
20th April 2012, 16:33
Marx has never needed 'rehabilitation'.

Manic Impressive
20th April 2012, 16:54
wow very interesting article thanks


"The craziest speculation in railways, banks, housing, unprecedented expansion of the credit system, et cetera," wrote Karl Marx in August 1852 in his distinctive, summary style to his friend Friedrich Engels: "Is this not “approaching crisis”?" Some months previously he wrote in The New York Tribune, which he spent ten years for as the European correspondent that 'the more excess capital in industrial production comes together, the longer and harder the mass of workers is affected.I'd say it's possible that Engels may have written in the New York Tribune under Marx's name which he is known to have often done when Marx was ill. But I'm not going to check it :D

p.s. I'm going to share this and credit the translation as "Revleft's Psycho"

Sasha
20th April 2012, 17:01
Marx has never needed 'rehabilitation'.

what about saving from canonization? esp if that includes elavating stuff to dogma he never wrote or intended in that way?

Book O'Dead
20th April 2012, 17:07
what about saving from canonization? esp if that includes elavating stuff to dogma he never wrote or intended in that way?

In that case I would suggest to the canonizers and the dogmatists to apply the old biblical commandment: "Physician, heal thyself!"

But Marx 'rehabilitated'? Naaaaaaw!

Kronsteen
20th April 2012, 22:11
The main issue that he [Marx] did not resolve for himself was whether the collapse of capitalism was inevitable.

Engels in contrast steered in his posthumous reconstruction exactly towards that.[...]

Some were convinced that somewhere in Marx's paper a mathematical formula for the downfall of capitalism was to be found.

This is interesting. It does seem to follow the familiar habit of taking anything which someone doesn't like about Marx, and blaming it on Engels. Which looks suspiciously like a way of making Marx say what you want, and attributing any time when he doesn't say it to the 'meddling' or 'bad influence' of Engels.

Of course, what we want the master to have said varies according to our own tendency. It find it odd that so many marxists, having decided that this or that part of Marx's writings have been refuted by history, then go back and strenuously reinterpret the ouvre to retroactively make Marx right after all. About everything.

On the inevitabilism question, I've always found it easy to say: "Marx believed it, he occasionally wrote it, he was wrong, and it doesn't matter - because it's a minor point and it doesn't follow logically from anything else he wrote."

Now this article is claiming Marx wasn't an inevitablist, but Engels wanted him to be. More than that, Marx didn't view History as a force, or his own system as a science, but Engels retroactively reversed both these views.

Sasha
21st April 2012, 10:52
Think the article more claims that Marx, like all the dominant strains at the time had a deterministic/inevirabelist approach and set out the outline of capital 1 till 3 to proof it but after 1 came to be stuck and doubted he could prove it. Engels under immense pressure of others with the best intent tried to "safe" the legacy/magnusopus of his dear friend and rather hastily and thus crudly "proved" socialist determinism not knowing this work would be canonized like it did.

Kronsteen
21st April 2012, 19:41
Engels under immense pressure of others with the best intent tried to "safe" the legacy/magnusopus of his dear friend and rather hastily and thus crudly "proved" socialist determinism not knowing this work would be canonized like it did.

Indeed. I sometimes think the various tendencies are separated by which stopgaps, fudges and temporary tactics they've fossilised into eternal principles.

Like Lenin's insistence that the peasantry of the time were more susceptible to reactionary than socialist propaganda...became the doctrine that peasants can never be revolutionaries. Even though Marx clearly said they could.

My own beloved UK-SWP justifies its authoritarian attitude by talking about 'Democratic Centrism' (with the emphasis always on 'Centrism') as though it were Trotsky in the 1930s.

But inevitablism obviously serves a psychological function: A cause becomes more attractive with the assurance that victory is certain.

Though it's a double edged sword - if capitalism is destined to fail anyway, why bother to fight it? Kautsky's 'revolutionary waiting' was a convenient bit of sophism, but it does follow logically from crude forms of inevitablism.

There are less crude forms, such as "Capitalism's internal contradictions have already brought it to the brink of collapse, but it won't fall unless we marxists push it, though we don't know exactly how much pushing is needed".

I was taught that the role of marxists was to keep the party going through reformist campaigns, so that if/when the workers rise up, we'll be there to guide them. Which does rather raise the questions: Why should they let us guide them, and if they can organise enough to rise up, do they need guiding at all?

Rafiq
21st April 2012, 21:27
Think the article more claims that Marx, like all the dominant strains at the time had a deterministic/inevirabelist approach and set out the outline of capital 1 till 3 to proof it but after 1 came to be stuck and doubted he could prove it. Engels under immense pressure of others with the best intent tried to "safe" the legacy/magnusopus of his dear friend and rather hastily and thus crudly "proved" socialist determinism not knowing this work would be canonized like it did.

Yet Capital, as it remains today is largely indesputable. Of course capitalism will eventually destroy itself and carry the seeds of it's own destruction. The question is, of course, whether socialism is to replace it.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Rafiq
21st April 2012, 21:37
Indeed. I sometimes think the various tendencies are separated by which stopgaps, fudges and temporary tactics they've fossilised into eternal principles.

Like Lenin's insistence that the peasantry of the time were more susceptible to reactionary than socialist propaganda...became the doctrine that peasants can never be revolutionaries. Even though Marx clearly said they could.

My own beloved UK-SWP justifies its authoritarian attitude by talking about 'Democratic Centrism' (with the emphasis always on 'Centrism') as though it were Trotsky in the 1930s.

But inevitablism obviously serves a psychological function: A cause becomes more attractive with the assurance that victory is certain.

Though it's a double edged sword - if capitalism is destined to fail anyway, why bother to fight it? Kautsky's 'revolutionary waiting' was a convenient bit of sophism, but it does follow logically from crude forms of inevitablism.

There are less crude forms, such as "Capitalism's internal contradictions have already brought it to the brink of collapse, but it won't fall unless we marxists push it, though we don't know exactly how much pushing is needed".

I was taught that the role of marxists was to keep the party going through reformist campaigns, so that if/when the workers rise up, we'll be there to guide them. Which does rather raise the questions: Why should they let us guide them, and if they can organise enough to rise up, do they need guiding at all?

The point is: The fighting of Capitalism is inevitable, class struggle is inevitable.

One of the seeds of capitalism's destruction is class contradiction.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Kronsteen
21st April 2012, 21:58
One of the seeds of capitalism's destruction is class contradiction.

And what makes it inevitable that this seed will grow?

Why can't we have ten thousand years of impotent class resentment?


The question is, of course, whether socialism is to replace it.

That is indeed a separate question. Socialism, a different form of capitalism, a reversion to some kind of feudalism, a world of competing state capitalisms, or something currently inconceivable?

There were plenty who, on seeing Soviet Russia, decided it wasn't worth fighting capitalism if the result was a tyranny that might - might - be a long painful transition to genuine socialism.

Stadtsmasher
22nd April 2012, 01:07
This has been an informative thread, and i've learned a lot from reading it. Thanks. By all means please continue.

Tim Finnegan
22nd April 2012, 02:57
Oh, lord, not this "what if history goes backwards?" stuff again. What is it with you people?

Interesting article, at any rate, although as far as I can tell this does more to confirm the already venerable allegation that Orthodox dogmas had very little to do with the work of Marx, rather than suggests anything completely new. Perhaps further study of the texts will shake things up more thoroughly; I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Q
22nd April 2012, 13:21
Kautsky's 'revolutionary waiting' was a convenient bit of sophism, but it does follow logically from crude forms of inevitablism.
I believe the term was "revolutionary patience" and was used not in an inevitablist way, like you suggest, but in a way that tries to organise the majority of our class for the political conquest of power as a class-collective.

However, this does raise the question of when a Kautsky gesambtausgabe will be realized and put back a man into its context who has been instrumental in forming the Marxist movement as we know it even today. This as opposed to staying stuck in the myth of the "Bolshevik Origin".

Luís Henrique
22nd April 2012, 15:15
And what makes it inevitable that this seed will grow?

Why can't we have ten thousand years of impotent class resentment?

Because only living labour creates surplus value, and the accumulation of capital steadily diminishes the share of living labour in the production of commodities.

Capitalist accumulation destroys its own conditions. That is what Marx calls a contradiction.

**************************

But, since you are asking why can't we have ten thousand years of impotent class resentment, can I ask why can't we have an orderly and pacific transition to socialism, step by step, in cooperation with the bourgeoisie?

Luís Henrique

Kronsteen
22nd April 2012, 18:34
Because only living labour creates surplus value, and the accumulation of capital steadily diminishes the share of living labour in the production of commodities.
Capitalist accumulation destroys its own conditions. That is what Marx calls a contradiction.

Marx held that:

* Only labour creates value - surplus or otherwise.

* Technology multiplies how much value a given quantity of labour produces. The more advanced the technology, the greater the multiplication.

* There is a tendency among capitalists to increase their use of technology and decrease their use of workers. Even to the extent of having a fully automated factory, with workers used only to build, develop and maintain the technology.

But why should this be a 'contradiction'? Why can't there be a future workforce which does nothing but program computers to design robots to extract raw materials and build machines to make things in factories?

Why should asymptotically decreasing role of 'living labour' create a problem, either for capitalism or for capitalists?


But, since you are asking why can't we have ten thousand years of impotent class resentment, can I ask why can't we have an orderly and pacific transition to socialism, step by step, in cooperation with the bourgeoisie?

Could there be several generations of principled socialists in government who competently administrate a progressive changeover? Perhaps there could be, but you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery a hundred times in a row.

Franz Fanonipants
22nd April 2012, 18:42
And what makes it inevitable that this seed will grow?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/precapitalist/index.htm

well ok maybe not inevitable but historically p. likely

Franz Fanonipants
22nd April 2012, 18:43
lol yeah i trust these guys to not have any kind of implicit source/interpretation bias

Tim Finnegan
22nd April 2012, 19:11
However, this does raise the question of when a Kautsky gesambtausgabe will be realized and put back a man into its context who has been instrumental in forming the Marxist movement as we know it even today.
A broken-down shambles comprised largely of squabbling children with a Red Petrograd fetish? That seems a bit harsh, even for Kautsky.

Rafiq
22nd April 2012, 21:21
And what makes it inevitable that this seed will grow?

The Internal Contradictions within the Capitalist system. Or would you like me to mention those?


Why can't we have ten thousand years of impotent class resentment?


For the same reason we cannot have ten thousand years of coexistence between Water and Fire.

Their interests are antithetical towards each other, they are, if you will, Dialectically opposed (I don't want to get into a dialectics argument or use dialectics as evidence, though, you get the Idea, they are opposite from each other).

There have been several attempts to alleviate Class Struggle, namely Fascism, which ended up ultimately as a catastrophic failure in attempting at class collaboration.

Proletarians do not need Marxism or Communism to clash with the Bourgeois class, i.e. They were the ones who established communism as the embodiment of their interests, not the other way around. It is impossible to end class struggle for such a long time, none the less even possible for Capitalism, systemically, excluding class struggle, even survive for that long.



That is indeed a separate question. Socialism, a different form of capitalism, a reversion to some kind of feudalism, a world of competing state capitalisms, or something currently inconceivable?


Ultimately, it amounts to whether the proletarian succeeds in smashing it's enemy.


There were plenty who, on seeing Soviet Russia, decided it wasn't worth fighting capitalism if the result was a tyranny

Then they neglected to actually analyze the Russian situation with critical detail or analysis.


that might - might - be a long painful transition to genuine socialism.


The choice is not there's. Capitalism will have the same (barely) human face that it does today in the near future. The question will no longer be whether we prefer socialism to capitalism, the question will be of how much longer can capitalism even survive.

Anderson
22nd April 2012, 21:53
Marx has never needed 'rehabilitation'.


Max was not Maxist
:confused:

Kronsteen
22nd April 2012, 22:54
One of the seeds of capitalism's destruction is class contradiction.
And what makes it inevitable that this seed will grow?
The Internal Contradictions within the Capitalist system. Or would you like me to mention those?

So the mysteriously capitalised Internal Contradictions are a seed of capitalism's inevitable self destruction, and the seeds will inevitably grow because capitalism has Internal Contradictions, which are among the seeds of capitalism's inevitable self destruction.

The thing about circles is...they can never move forward.


Their interests are antithetical towards each other

Forces can be antithetical to each other for a very long time without either winning.

Sometimes a war results in stalemate, or no clear victor.


Proletarians do not need Marxism or Communism to clash with the Bourgeois class

Indeed they don't. With raises the awkward question of whether they need marxists at all, but that's a whole other can of worms.


It is impossible to end class struggle for such a long time, none the less even possible for Capitalism, systemically, excluding class struggle, even survive for that long.

No one is talking about ending class struggle - only about consistently fending it off.

You also seem to be saying capitalism has an expiry date even if there were no class struggle. Where does this limit come from? More Internal Contradictions?


The question will no longer be whether we prefer socialism to capitalism, the question will be of how much longer can capitalism even survive.

This sounds like the old trotskyist notion that capitalism is already dying, and we just have to finish it off. The idea's been around since the 1920s, and every time there's a recession, it comes back into fashion.

Rafiq
23rd April 2012, 03:52
So the mysteriously capitalised Internal Contradictions are a seed of capitalism's inevitable self destruction, and the seeds will inevitably grow because capitalism has Internal Contradictions, which are among the seeds of capitalism's inevitable self destruction.

The "Seed" of capitalism's own destruction is in itself each and every one of the conflicting entities which we call contradictory. The what sparks it's growth is the several interactions between these entities, as they are contradictory. Capitalism does "Grow" in this way, you know. Growth signifies crisis.


The thing about circles is...they can never move forward.


It isn't a circular argument, though, it would appear you've attempted at making it such.


Forces can be antithetical to each other for a very long time without either winning.


This is largely improbable in the case of classes in capitalism. I think speculation over an abstract form of capitalism that can supposedly exist to alleviate the contradiction of class struggle for a long period of time is not only irrelevant, it would appear as an impossibility.

When, for example, they are supposedly in a state of "No one winning", what this essentially means is that the Bourgeoisie is wining, the capitalist system is (If we exclude systemic contradictions beyond class ) functioning properly without any demands from the Proletarian class. But this is assuming we exclude systemic contradictions, which, if you did not know, are certain to generate class struggle (In times of Crisis, we see a rise in class struggle and Proletarian consciousness).


Sometimes a war results in stalemate, or no clear victor.


The avoidance of class struggle, for anyone, is a clear victory on behalf of the Bourgeoisie. They are retaining their class dictatorship without being threatened by the only force which could formally depose them.

You know, Capitalism is the dictatorship of the Bourgeois class. Class struggle (and class war, same thing) undermine this dictatorship.

Take for example, a patriarchal father. His very existence signifies his victory, he wants to retain his position, have absolute dominance over his wife, and enslave his Children. Of course, when the Children or Wife were to, say, fight back, he would engage in a battle against him. If he is to win, all shall stay the same (Or maybe worse), if they are to, he is destroyed. You get the concept. The Bourgeoisie fights the war to retain their class position, and by there being no war, in capitalism (Or for the example, the Patriarchal household ) they are victorious already.



Indeed they don't. With raises the awkward question of whether they need marxists at all, but that's a whole other can of worms.


They don't need Marxists, though, I don't consider Marxism as a "Force of Change" or anything similar, I consider it a mode of thought in which we are enabled to analyze a variety of existing phenomena and understand human behavior.

Workers do not necessarily need Communists, on the other hand, because in nature they are already Communists when they engage in class struggle. What does Communism mean? An ideology which seeks to use the proletariat as a means of achieving it's own ends? Of course not. It is a process, and a movement.

This is the origin of communism: Proletarian class struggle. Should they formulate another Ideology as a reflection of their own interests than I am all for it.


No one is talking about ending class struggle - only about consistently fending it off.


Capitalism does not have the systemic capabilities to constantly fend off class struggle (for a long period of time), being that it does not have the systemic capabilities to even sustain its own self in a healthy manner for a significantly numerable amount of years.

I don't even see a way out of this crisis, to be totally honest.


You also seem to be saying capitalism has an expiry date even if there were no class struggle.

Well, capitalism as we see it today. Capitalism will destroy itself, but that by no means guarantees another form of capitalism cannot take its place. The destruction of Liberalist capitalism, of course, is certain (I will copy the works of others, yes, but we can see this with the dynamic and efficient form of capitalism displayed in China, which will eventually have to replace the current form we have now).

But yes, even if there is no class struggle, capitalism can certainly destroy itself. That isn't to say there is an exact date, as a lot is possible, after all, we don't know if we have seen the full potential of it reinventing itself, no? It cannot avoid crisis. And there is a possibility that one of the crises will be the mother of all crises.


Where does this limit come from? More Internal Contradictions?


Yes. Capitalism, if you did not know, systemically cannot sustain itself for so long. Really, since World War 2 we have been living off of the fruits of that war, and when that no longer lasts, we'll end up right back where we started from before that. And today, we no longer have the same material conditions for War that existed in World War 2 (As we have the Nuclear Bomb and weapons of mass destruction, now).


This sounds like the old trotskyist notion that capitalism is already dying, and we just have to finish it off.

No, capitalism will die as we know it regardless of whether we finish it off or not. It could be replaced by a completely new, from scratch, form of capitalism, or something worse.


The idea's been around since the 1920s, and every time there's a recession, it comes back into fashion.


The 1930's marked the end of capitalism for such a time period. It was the second world war, and the cold war, to some extent which prolonged this crises.

Kronsteen
23rd April 2012, 05:30
When, for example, they are supposedly in a state of "No one winning", what this essentially means is that the Bourgeoisie is wining

Good point. We could conceive class relations under capitalism as a war which can never be decisively won by the capitalists - there will always be cause for worker's resistance to flare up.

But even if they can't win the war, they can win every battle. So far, they have done just that.


They are retaining their class dictatorship without being threatened by the only force which could formally depose them. Elsewhere you say capitalism could be destroyed by any number of things. Here you're saying only the workers could do it.


They don't need MarxistsThen you don't believe in the need for a revolutionary party, or a vanguard organisation which functions to keep the flame of worker's resistance burning when it's been extinguished in the workplaces themselves.


Workers do not necessarily need Communists, on the other hand, because in nature they are already Communists when they engage in class struggle.That's rather playing around with redefining words, but I know what you mean.


Capitalism does not have the systemic capabilities to constantly fend off class struggle (for a long period of time), being that it does not have the systemic capabilities to even sustain its own self in a healthy manner for a significantly numerable amount of years. Both of these assertions are articles of faith. Capitalism has already fended off class struggle for a long time, and has already survived in reasonable health for many years.

You might emphasise crises as evidence for capitalism's failing health, but the facts remain that most of the world is capitalist, and talk of finding an alternative - let alone overthrowing multiple governments to make one - is relagated to forums like this.


Well, capitalism as we see it today. Capitalism will destroy itself, but that by no means guarantees another form of capitalism cannot take its place.So you don't believe in the inevitability of socialism. Fine.


The destruction of Liberalist capitalism, of course, is certainThe recurrence of crises may be certain. The periodic emergence of working class resistance may be certain. But you're asserting precisely what you have yet to prove: That modern 'liberalist' capitalism will be destroyed.


But yes, even if there is no class struggle, capitalism can certainly destroy itself. That isn't to say there is an exact date, as a lot is possible, after all, we don't know if we have seen the full potential of it reinventing itself, no? It cannot avoid crisis. And there is a possibility that one of the crises will be the mother of all crises. You're slipping between saying the future is unknown, and the future is known. You can't prove that something specific will happen by stating that we can't know what will happen.

Luís Henrique
23rd April 2012, 12:56
Marx held that:

* Only labour creates value - surplus or otherwise.

The simple answer is, of course, there can be no production of surplus value without the production of value. The complex answer is, there can be no systemic production of value without the production of surplus value.


* Technology multiplies how much value a given quantity of labour produces. The more advanced the technology, the greater the multiplication.Can you give us a quote that shows Marx thought like that?

Because if he did he was evidently wrong. Technology multiplies the amount of products that can be produced in a given time. But the value of these products is given exclusively by the amount of abstract labour embodied in them. If it costs 1,000 men.hours to produce a gadget, its value is that of 1,000 hours of human abstract labour. If a new technology reduces this socially necessary abstract labour to 500 men.hours, then the value of each gadget has been halved. Historically, of course, this process has included halving the value of each gadget, but more than doubling the number of gadgets produced. It shouldn't be difficult to see that there are practical limits to such multiplication of production, especially if there is no change in demand.


* There is a tendency among capitalists to increase their use of technology and decrease their use of workers. Even to the extent of having a fully automated factory, with workers used only to build, develop and maintain the technology.And how will they generate value in such environment?


But why should this be a 'contradiction'? Why can't there be a future workforce which does nothing but program computers to design robots to extract raw materials and build machines to make things in factories?

Why should asymptotically decreasing role of 'living labour' create a problem, either for capitalism or for capitalists?Because it won't produce value enough to sustain the system.


Could there be several generations of principled socialists in government who competently administrate a progressive changeover? Perhaps there could be, but you'd have a better chance of winning the lottery a hundred times in a row.And why?

Luís Henrique

Kronsteen
23rd April 2012, 18:21
Technology multiplies how much value a given quantity of labour produces.
Technology multiplies the amount of products that can be produced in a given time.

Oh bugger. I meant to say that technology multiplies productivity, which increases use value but decreases labour value - what Marx unhelpfully just calls 'value'.


And how will they generate value in such environment?

There's no such thing as complete automation. Even if the machine turns the raw materials into the finished product with no human involvement, it still needs to be switched on. More than that, it has to be checked, cleaned, and have worn out parts replaced. It has to be fed the raw materials.

And of course, there's a lot of labour involved in designing and building the machine.



Why should asymptotically decreasing role of 'living labour' create a problem
Because it won't produce value enough to sustain the system.

If that's what marxism predicts, then that may be a problem for marxism, given just how automated mass production has become.


And why?

I'm not sure whether you asking why a parliamentary road to socialism is (barely) possible in principle, or why it's so unlikely.

u.s.red
23rd April 2012, 18:54
wow very interesting article thanks

I'd say it's possible that Engels may have written in the New York Tribune under Marx's name which he is known to have often done when Marx was ill. But I'm not going to check it :D

p.s. I'm going to share this and credit the translation as "Revleft's Psycho"

I've often wondered if Engels wrote part of Vols II and III. The style seems different from Vol I.

Sasha
23rd April 2012, 19:09
I've often wondered if Engels wrote part of Vols II and III. The style seems different from Vol I.

absolutely, its commonly know engels compiled 2 and 3 based on Marx his outlines and notes and very few and very short drafts. don't know if you ever saw what marx his notes look like but let's just say it will take some serious editing to even form one single coherent sentence.

Franz Fanonipants
23rd April 2012, 19:14
absolutely, its commonly know engels compiled 2 and 3 based on Marx his outlines and notes and very few and very short drafts. don't know if you ever saw what marx his notes look like but let's just say it will take some serious editing to even form one single coherent sentence.

pre-capitalist economic formations is a published, unedited notebook and i had to walk around my house reading it out loud to get it

e: marx wrote like a really well educated english language learner

Luís Henrique
23rd April 2012, 20:20
Oh bugger. I meant to say that technology multiplies productivity, which increases use value but decreases labour value - what Marx unhelpfully just calls 'value'.

That's still wrong.

Productivity doesn't increase use value. A shoe made by robots is as useful as a hand-made shoe. And what do you mean by "labour value"? I don't think that such phrase makes any sence; it is not used by Marx, nor by classics or neoclassics, nor by any Marxist that I know.


There's no such thing as complete automation.

Well, why not?

It certainly looks difficult to implement, and we don't yet have the means for it, but it doesn't seem impossible in theory.


Even if the machine turns the raw materials into the finished product with no human involvement, it still needs to be switched on. More than that, it has to be checked, cleaned, and have worn out parts replaced. It has to be fed the raw materials.

That's how things are nowadays, I don't see any reason why that cannot be changed, with auto-checking, auto-cleaning, and auto-repairing machines. Evidently, somebody has to take a look at the process from time to time to see if things are going on correctly. But we could be talking of a few minutes of "labour" per month, instead of many hours per day. What practical value, in the Marxist sence, is there in a commodity that embodies two or three seconds of human labour?


And of course, there's a lot of labour involved in designing and building the machine.

Which in turn can be also automated.


If that's what marxism predicts, then that may be a problem for marxism, given just how automated mass production has become.

It is a problem for capital, given how little value is being produced.


I'm not sure whether you asking why a parliamentary road to socialism is (barely) possible in principle, or why it's so unlikely.

If we are into possibilism, wondering about possible outcomes, it is possibly because we are not analysing correctly the present situation - otherwise we would realise that certain outcomes are impossible (we won't go back to feudalism or slavery, we won't have a viable "third position", we won't have a stable "Stalinism" that doesn't resolve back into capitalism, etc.) Conversely, if we are certain that some outcomes are impossible (such as a peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism), it is quite probable that we are analysing the present situation in some depth, and have discovered some actual reasons why such outcomes are unlikely. So I am asking you why do you think a peaceful, gradual transition is so unlikely; it seems to me that the analysis that shows you that such transition is impossible will quite probably show you that capitalism is an unsustainable system. Or, conversely, that if it doesn't show that capitalism is unsustainable, it actually cannot demonstrate that a peaceful transition is impossible.

Luís Henrique

Rafiq
23rd April 2012, 20:52
Elsewhere you say capitalism could be destroyed by any number of things. Here you're saying only the workers could do it.

Well, my mistake, I should add the only class that could formally depose of them, the only threat that extends beyond systemic threat.


Then you don't believe in the need for a revolutionary party, or a vanguard organisation which functions to keep the flame of worker's resistance burning when it's been extinguished in the workplaces themselves.


Well, one could argue that Marxism could be of use to them, and could help. Though, the point is that proletarians do not need Marxists to achieve in class consciousness or clash with the Bourgeoisie. Such happens organically from the proletarian class itself.


Both of these assertions are articles of faith. Capitalism has already fended off class struggle for a long time, and has already survived in reasonable health for many years.

This is a very unique and specific circumstance, i.e. through the rise of fictitious capital. Things are now collapsing on itself. Though, in many other parts of the world, such as China, I would say class struggle has been quite heated.

The Problem with building capitalism through fictitious capital is, of course the consequence of such a development when crises hits the fan. There have, in history been several defeats of the proletariat class. It only takes a couple of decades, or a new crises, for the re emergence of class struggle to take a hold. With the collapse of 20th century Communism, here, Class struggle is in a state of re inventing itself.


You might emphasise crises as evidence for capitalism's failing health, but the facts remain that most of the world is capitalist, and talk of finding an alternative - let alone overthrowing multiple governments to make one - is relagated to forums like this.

We now have a world capitalist economy in which the crises effects everyone. Such is an inevitability, the globalization of capitalism. Even during the great depression, most countries suffered because of the crises in the United States. Class struggle, today at least to an extent is on the rise. I think that talk of finding alternatives is rapidly growing, as proletarians across the globe are starting to be disillusioned with the systemic order.

Even the sign of growth in the American right is signification that the mystification which held up the social order are slowly decaying and degenerating.

Of course we cannot be optimistic, the revolution is "Not around the corner". The rise of a revolutionary situation will, most likely be simultaneous with a very disturbing and horrific development of capitalism, as a last resort. Certainly we remember Fascism (Though in no way am I implying it will "Rise again" like many Liberals like to claim).


So you don't believe in the inevitability of socialism. Fine.


I do not. But, however, I do believe in the inevitability of proletarian struggle against the class enemy. There are, however, an innumerable amount of ways in which they could experience a defeat.


The recurrence of crises may be certain. The periodic emergence of working class resistance may be certain. But you're asserting precisely what you have yet to prove: That modern 'liberalist' capitalism will be destroyed.


The formula for capitalism we have been experiencing, since the twenties, can no longer function. There is, today, (And this is even still, half assed to some extent) only one form of capitalism that can sustain itself as the savior of capitalism for a brief period of time, bringing in a new age of capitalist development, and it resides within China, Singapore, etc.

Ironically, specifically in China's case, this economy to an extent resembles Fascist economic theory, the merger of the State and Class Relations, using the state as a means of alleviating the problem of class struggle, the merger of Bourgeois production with to some extent State planning, etc.


You're slipping between saying the future is unknown, and the future is known. You can't prove that something specific will happen by stating that we can't know what will happen.


We don't know the date and time, we don't know how exactly it will happen, but yes, capitalism eventually will destroy itself.

Kronsteen
23rd April 2012, 22:31
Productivity doesn't increase use value. A shoe made by robots is as useful as a hand-made shoe.

Robots can't just make shoes faster and more uniformally than people, they can make better shoes.


And what do you mean by "labour value"? I don't think that such phrase makes any sence; it is not used by Marx, nor by classics or neoclassics, nor by any Marxist that I know.

In chapter 1 of Capital, Marx introduces three terms:
* Use Value (aka Utility, usefulness)
* Exchange Value (loosely Sale Price, Market Value)
* Value (the difficulty in making the product, measured in 'socially necessary labour time' - hours taken by the average worker using averagely up-to-date technology)

I was only saying that I think the term 'value' is confusing and it would have been better to call it 'Labour Value'. It's a parenthetical remark.



There's no such thing as complete automation.
Well, why not?

Who fixes the machines? More machines? Okay, who fixes them? Who diagnoses what needs fixing? An AI system? Who checks the AI is working properly, and who trains it in the first place?

Who designs the computers? Software? Who writes it? More software? Who writes that?

Human involvement in production can be pushed back as many stages as you like, but eventually 'living labour' has to produce the 'dead labour'.


What practical value, in the Marxist sence, is there in a commodity that embodies two or three seconds of human labour?

In the strict marxist sense, very little. But that could also be said of firefighters who spend most of their time waiting (and, admittedly, training) for the rare occasions when their skills are needed. It could also be said of the IT technicians that companies depend on, or the managers who have nothing to do unless a crisis occurs.

Which is why the classical marxist notion of value may need an update.

Actually, Marx insisted that only labour could produce value, and raw materials never could. That's been controversial since Capital was published.



If that's what marxism predicts, then that may be a problem for marxism, given just how automated mass production has become.
It is a problem for capital, given how little value is being produced.

We've had mass production for a century and a half now, with as you say correspondingly little value being produced. Capitalism has gone through several booms and slumps, perhaps as a result of this. We're talking about the tendency of the rate of profit to fall.

So why is capitalism still growing overall? Why is there no workers movement to speak of?



why do you think a peaceful, gradual transition is so unlikely;


What are the prerequisites for such a transition?

* In every major country, a government and bureaucracy that's working for such a transition, or at least not standing in it's way.

* Several decades of uninterrupted peace and prosperity in each country.

* Capitalists who are either complicit in the transition, or so weak that they have no choice.

* A population who're either well regimented socialists or completely docile.

None of these are remotely likely.


it seems to me that the analysis that shows you that such transition is impossible will quite probably show you that capitalism is an unsustainable system. Or, conversely, that if it doesn't show that capitalism is unsustainable, it actually cannot demonstrate that a peaceful transition is impossible.

Quite possibly. In which case we have a problem with no solution. A no-win situation.

Luís Henrique
24th April 2012, 02:16
Robots can't just make shoes faster and more uniformally than people, they can make better shoes.

A better shoe has no more use value than a worse shoe. Use value is not quantifiable.


In chapter 1 of Capital, Marx introduces three terms:
* Use Value (aka Utility, usefulness)
* Exchange Value (loosely Sale Price, Market Value)
* Value (the difficulty in making the product, measured in 'socially necessary labour time' - hours taken by the average worker using averagely up-to-date technology)

I was only saying that I think the term 'value' is confusing and it would have been better to call it 'Labour Value'. It's a parenthetical remark.

I see.


Who fixes the machines? More machines? Okay, who fixes them? Who diagnoses what needs fixing? An AI system? Who checks the AI is working properly, and who trains it in the first place?

Who designs the computers? Software? Who writes it? More software? Who writes that?

Human involvement in production can be pushed back as many stages as you like, but eventually 'living labour' has to produce the 'dead labour'.

Or so it seems. Three centuries ago, any automation would seem impossible; the events since them have proved that false. Anyway, the problem is not "complete" automation, in the sence that absolutely no living labour is ever necessary: much before that, the amount of value is going to be too small to support a capitalist system (companies profits, research and development, increases in production).


In the strict marxist sense, very little. But that could also be said of firefighters who spend most of their time waiting (and, admittedly, training) for the rare occasions when their skills are needed.

But firefighters produce absolutely no value. The functioning of a capitalist system, therefore, cannot rely on them (or policemen, garbage collectors, clerks, soldiers, etc.)


It could also be said of the IT technicians that companies depend on, or the managers who have nothing to do unless a crisis occurs.

Hm, no. If I understand what you are talking about, they are quite different from firefighters. If they are people who work for companies that sell repairment services, they do produce value. As system analysts or computer programmers or websmiths also do. Manager on the other hand do not produce value; a capitalist economy cannot rely exclusively on managers.


Which is why the classical marxist notion of value may need an update.

I don't think so. Firefighters, managers, overlookers, clerks, in short, unproductive labour is not a novelty; it existed in Marx's time and before. They work in setting up preconditions for the functioning of the system, but they do not produce value at all.

Bourgeois theorists, of course, deal in all sorts of confusion (assuming that all services are improductive, assuming that the categories useful for organising productive labour are valid for the organisation of improductive labour - even trying to measure the "productivity" of such activities - assuming that the displacement of labour from industry to services has a similar nature that the older displacement of labour from agriculture to industry, confusing improductive labour with unnecessary labour, etc, etc, etc.) We should not fall for such confusion, even when presented in a "progressive" veneer.


Actually, Marx insisted that only labour could produce value, and raw materials never could. That's been controversial since Capital was published.

Of course it is controversial; bourgeois economists have never accepted that, and have tried any imaginable intellectual manoeveur to come with a different theory of value: value as being produced by capital, by utility, by innovation, by management, by risk, etc. And, of course, denying the existence of value or reducing it to price. It is not an interesting controversy for those who, like us, are not trying to find ways to support capitalism.


We've had mass production for a century and a half now, with as you say correspondingly little value being produced.

Hm, no. The production of value has risen steadily up to at least the sixties of the past century, due to the enormous populational growth of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, to the incorporation of women into the work force, and to the destruction and subordination of precapitalist economies. Heck, the whole population of China - one quarter of mankind! - was producing in a subsistence economy up to the last quarter of the past century. And, naturally, due to the increase in labour intensity made possible by Taylorism/Fordism.

The apparent threshold was reached somewhere in the seventies or eighties of the last century, with the crisis of the Keynesian paradigm, and the inability of the so-called "third industrial revolution" to increase employment and demand (as opposed to the second industrial revolution), complemented, a few years after, by the monumental failure of the integration of the Soviet Union and its satellites to the world market.


Capitalism has gone through several booms and slumps, perhaps as a result of this. We're talking about the tendency of the rate of profit to fall.


We are talking about the tendency of the rate profit to fall. Is not there such a tendency? If there is, how is the system not doomed?


So why is capitalism still growing overall? Why is there no workers movement to speak of?

I don't think capitalism is growing at this moment. On the contrary, we are seeing markets contracting, unemployment and bankruptcies in the rise, profitability falling, and obvious signs that the situation, as bad as it is, is far from having reached the bottom and that the worse is still to come.

If there was an automatic relation between structural crises of capitalism and the combative disposition of the working class, we would evidently be seeing the first signs of a revolution. Unhappily such automatic relation does not exist, and the working class has to put itself up as a social force of itself to be able to struggle; but on the contrary, the last thirty years have been years of systematical destruction (and self-destruction) of the working class as a conscious entity.


What are the prerequisites for such a transition?

* In every major country, a government and bureaucracy that's working for such a transition, or at least not standing in it's way.

* Several decades of uninterrupted peace and prosperity in each country.

* Capitalists who are either complicit in the transition, or so weak that they have no choice.

* A population who're either well regimented socialists or completely docile.

None of these are remotely likely.

None of those are present at this moment, but evidently this is not a given. Why are they not present at this moment, and why we can generalise such absence as not a mere conjunctural problem, but rather as a structural condition of capitalism?

You see, either we can make predictions about the future, or we cannot. If we can predict that a peaceful transition to socialism is unlikely, or, in other words, dismiss the idea that the capitalist system is reformable from within, then why can we not know whether the capitalist system is self-destructive or not?

Luís Henrique

Kronsteen
24th April 2012, 03:59
A better shoe has no more use value than a worse shoe. Use value is not quantifiable.

True in a sense. It's not possible to put a number to usefulness, but it's certainly possible to grade something as more useful for a given task than something else.

It that weren't true, there'd be no difference between a good broom and a bad broom, and we'd all be able to do the best work with the worst tools.


But firefighters produce absolutely no value.

You're thinking of value only in terms of manufactured items for a market.

But it takes work to put out a fire, and there's a negatively-defined product at the end of it, namely a building that [/i]hasn't[/i] been destroyed.

You could if you like categorise all services and repressive aparatuses as state infrastructure as opposed to business. But that would make a private security company a state-funded service - even when it's obviously employed by another private company.


The functioning of a capitalist system, therefore, cannot rely on them (or policemen, garbage collectors, clerks, soldiers, etc.)

But it does rely on them. If they were to disappear from a country, capitalism couldn't function there.

Infrastructure is necessary to the creation of value.


If I understand what you are talking about, they are quite different from firefighters. If they are people who work for companies that sell repairment services, they do produce value. As system analysts or computer programmers or websmiths also do.

You're making a distinction between repairing something that's ceased functioning, and maintenence to prevent such ceasation. And you're saying the former produces value while the latter does not.

I'm sorry, I just don't see the basis for that. It's like categorising medicine which prevents a condition from worsening as 'inert', while categorising a cure as 'active'.

The former is not inert. It has a definite, measurable effect. Preventing someone from dying is not an inaction.


Manager on the other hand do not produce value; a capitalist economy cannot rely exclusively on managers.

No one is talking about relying exclusively on managers. If we did have nothing but managers, they would indeed produce nothing.


I don't think so. Firefighters, managers, overlookers, clerks, in short, unproductive labour is not a novelty; it existed in Marx's time and before. They work in setting up preconditions for the functioning of the system, but they do not produce value at all.

So you say. But the labour of a manager is part of the manufacturing process. If there were no managers overseeing and implicitly threatening the workers as well as directing them, the workers would do much less work, and so produce less value.

The actions of the manager therefore do produce value.


Marx insisted that only labour could produce value, and raw materials never could. That's been controversial since Capital was published.

Of course it is controversial; bourgeois economists have never accepted that, and have tried any imaginable intellectual manoeveur to come with a different theory of value

I meant that it's controversial among marxists too.

To prove that labour produces value is not to prove that only labour produces value. But that's another, very long thread.


We are talking about the tendency of the rate profit to fall. Is not there such a tendency? If there is, how is the system not doomed?

In Marx's time it was pretty evident, with the available data. Locke and Smith accepted it. Since then there's been more data which questions it.

The theory that there should be such a tendency seems logically sound to me, but if the numbers questions it, then maybe my logic's wrong.


If there was an automatic relation between structural crises of capitalism and the combative disposition of the working class, we would evidently be seeing the first signs of a revolution. Unhappily such automatic relation does not exist,[quote]

Indeed. The political aspect of rave culture in the late 80s, and the anti-capitalist demonstrations of the late 90s were both during times of economic health. And they also both fizzled.

[quote]You see, either we can make predictions about the future, or we cannot. If we can predict that a peaceful transition to socialism is unlikely, or, in other words, dismiss the idea that the capitalist system is reformable from within, then why can we not know whether the capitalist system is self-destructive or not?

They're separate questions. Some predictions about the future can be made with reasonable confidence, others with less confidence, and sometimes we just don't know.

One the reform question, we know that very few (if any) capitalists would willingly take part in a transition to socialism. They'd oppose it. This is I think a very confident prediction, and I think we can generalise it as "a structural condition of capitalism".

On the self-destruction question, we know that capitalism creates its own crises, but it also produces its own measures to counter crises. As to whether the crises tend to get more severe over time - even to the point of destroying capitalism itself - I think there's not enough evidence either way.

Luís Henrique
24th April 2012, 16:01
You're thinking of value only in terms of manufactured items for a market.

Yes, of course; in terms of commodities actually, for some services are also commodities. Those are items that have value. Things that are not commodities have no value, nevermind how good, useful, or necessary they may be.


But it takes work to put out a fire, and there's a negatively-defined product at the end of it, namely a building that [/i]hasn't[/i] been destroyed.

And what would the value of that negatively-defined product be?


You could if you like categorise all services and repressive aparatuses as state infrastructure as opposed to business. But that would make a private security company a state-funded service - even when it's obviously employed by another private company.

No; if it sells services at the market, it is producing value.


But it does rely on them. If they were to disappear from a country, capitalism couldn't function there.

Infrastructure is necessary to the creation of value.

It is, but it is not value of itself.


You're making a distinction between repairing something that's ceased functioning, and maintenence to prevent such ceasation. And you're saying the former produces value while the latter does not.


Again, the difference is between things that are commodities, and things that are not. If you can sell the prevention of something, such prevention is a commodity, and has a value. If you can't sell the repairment of something, then the repairment is not a commodity, and has no value. Indeed, even a quite material thing, a useful object of any kind, that cannot, for whatever reason, be sold (not in the sence that it doesn't find buyers, but in that it isn't meant to be sold) has no value.


So you say. But the labour of a manager is part of the manufacturing process. If there were no managers overseeing and implicitly threatening the workers as well as directing them, the workers would do much less work, and so produce less value.

The actions of the manager therefore do produce value.

The fact that something is indispensable to the production of something else does not mean that it produces it. You can't produce lettuces without land, but land does not produce lettuces.

You can perhaps argue that there is no sence in measuring individual productivity in a capitalist company, and in that sence the value of commodities is given by the total labour, productive and improductive, involved in production; but this is not how it is usually thought of, the cost of managerial "labour" being considered part of the improductive costs of the company.


I meant that it's controversial among marxists too.

Who would be those Marxists that believe that inanimate things create other things, and even a social relations such as value, and how would they figure the process?


In Marx's time it was pretty evident, with the available data. Locke and Smith accepted it. Since then there's been more data which questions it.

The theory that there should be such a tendency seems logically sound to me, but if the numbers questions it, then maybe my logic's wrong.

Or, more probably, the figures are wrong, or even unavailable. But if your logic is Marxist, you will know that the tendency is a tendency, and can be, to some extent, countered by conscious acts by the capitalists or the State.


One the reform question, we know that very few (if any) capitalists would willingly take part in a transition to socialism. They'd oppose it. This is I think a very confident prediction, and I think we can generalise it as "a structural condition of capitalism".

Indeed. How do we know that, though? Is it through empyrical experimentation, or how else do we assess the capitalists' subjectivity? Or perhaps that is a superficial way to discuss the problem, and the issue is not the "will" of the capitalists at all?


On the self-destruction question, we know that capitalism creates its own crises, but it also produces its own measures to counter crises.

I think this is false.

The crises are results of the automatic processes of capitalism; the countermeasures are conscious decisions taken by its supporters, in order exactly to avoid collapse.


As to whether the crises tend to get more severe over time - even to the point of destroying capitalism itself - I think there's not enough evidence either way.

We can look at the human cost of the past crisis. A system that needs events like World Wars first and second in order to reinvent itself is certainly a system that entails a lot of destruction.

Or we can look at it from the logical point of view. If the absolute production of value must necessarily stop growing at some point, isn't a system predicated in the perpetual increase of the production of value going to collapse?

************************

One problem seems to be that you are assuming "value" is transhistoric. This is false; value can only exist in a commodity producing system. Therefore the "labour" (if so it is) of feudal serfs building a new castle for their lord doesn't create value at all.

Perhaps related to that, "value" is not a moral category. A teacher in a State school does not produce value, but it doesn't mean that he is in any sence inferior or less of a worker than a teacher in a private school.

Luís Henrique

Kronsteen
24th April 2012, 18:18
I need to go back and reread Capital, because this notion of value, which I hadn't previously questioned, seems to be melting into an element in an arbitrary metaphysical system.

If I read you right, you're treating value as:

* something that exists only in commodities produced for a market under capitalism

* something that is measured in hours of socially necessary labour time

* something that, if there is also use value (and presumably demand) also present, generates exchange value, which itself generates price. Thus value is the grandfather of price.

This is quite a ghostly notion, and if I recall correctly, Marx recognised how intangible and abstract it seemed, but pleaded that this one intangible was so useful it should be allowed.

So before going any further, I'll do what any good acolyte does: Ask the master.

Luís Henrique
24th April 2012, 19:03
I need to go back and reread Capital, because this notion of value, which I hadn't previously questioned, seems to be melting into an element in an arbitrary metaphysical system.

How is it arbitrary?


If I read you right, you're treating value as:

* something that exists only in commodities produced for a market under capitalism

* something that is measured in hours of socially necessary labour time

* something that, if there is also use value (and presumably demand) also present, generates exchange value, which itself generates price. Thus value is the grandfather of price.


I am not sure there are three levels there (value, exchange value, price). I have the impression that the middle term is sometimes used as a synonim for value, and other times as a synonim for price.

But other than such minor quibble, yes, value exists only in commodities (believing the opposite is what is metaphysical and arbitrary, as if socially constructed categories could apply to completely different societies). And it is measured in hours of abstract labour.

Commodities, of course, do not exist only in capitalism; but it is only under capitalism that the production of commodities becomes the end all be all of human activity.


This is quite a ghostly notion, and if I recall correctly, Marx recognised how intangible and abstract it seemed, but pleaded that this one intangible was so useful it should be allowed.

What the problem is with the intangible?

Capitalism is a ghostly system, under which things hire human beings, necessities are produced, jobs are created, and the more labour saving devices are introduced, the more you have to work.

(Looking at how value is dwindling, someone made the joke that in the future, we will have to pay for jobs - and how would we pay for them? with the gadgets that industry distributes for free...)


So before going any further, I'll do what any good acolyte does: Ask the master.

That's a good idea. Capital is one of the brightest books ever written.

Luís Henrique

Dr. Rosenpenis
25th April 2012, 23:18
someone help me out here... what is the point of this distinction between "productive labor" which is directly involved in the production of commodities and "nonproductive labor" which is indirectly involved but equally necessary? they are all involved in the production of surplus value, from public school teachers to firefighters.
does marx make this distinction? where are you getting this from? or is it your own interpretation of marx?

svenne
26th April 2012, 02:17
someone help me out here... what is the point of this distinction between "productive labor" which is directly involved in the production of commodities and "inproductive labor" which is indirectly involved but equally necessary? they are all involved in the production of surplus value, from public school teachers to firefighters.
does marx make this distinction? where are you getting this from? or is it your own interpretation of marx?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/index.htm It's from that text, sometimes called "Results of the Direct Production Process". You'll also find a bit formal and real subsumption.

Luís Henrique
26th April 2012, 13:38
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/index.htm It's from that text, sometimes called "Results of the Direct Production Process". You'll also find a bit formal and real subsumption.

Yes:


Every productive worker is a wage labourer; but this does not mean that every wage labourer is a productive worker. In all cases where labour is bought in order to be consumed as use value, as a service, and not in order to replace the value of the variable capital as a living factor and to be incorporated into the capitalist production process, this labour is not productive labour, and the wage labourer is not a productive worker. His labour is then consumed on account of its use value, not as positing exchange value, it is consumed unproductively, not productively. The capitalist therefore does not confront labour as a capitalist, as the representative of capital. He exchanges his money for labour as income, not as capital. The consumption of the labour does not constitute M-C-M’, but C-M-C (the last symbol represents the labour, or the service itself). Money functions here only as means of circulation, not as capital.

My bold.

A big part of the problem, methinks, stands on the acritical introjection of bourgeois notions by workers and the workers' movement. "Productive" becomes then some sort of badge of honour (we 'deserve' a better life because we are "productive"). But from the standpoint of the working class, to whom capital is something to be abolished, being "productive" or "unproductive" is completely indifferent. The domestic servant that cooks meals for the private satisfaction of her employer is no less a worker than the steel mill blue collar wage slave who produces and reproduces capital. Indeed, a fundamental part of what we strive for is the abolition of the differences between them.

Luís Henrique