Irish Labour Party vote against Abortion Bill.

[pastradamus]

MICHAEL O'REGANFORNICATION WAS the single greatest cause of unwanted pregnancies in Ireland, Mayo Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin said.During the resumed Dáil debate, she said she was against abortion in any form. “The grace of God is so liberating and provides so many options to get the best out of life despite our fallen nature, and we all have that.“Having said that, it is an ideal to aim for. In an ideal world there would be no unwanted pregnancies and no unwanted babies, but we are far from living in an ideal world. An honest and a scriptural view is that things are getting harder for people, so what then for the weak in our society?Ms Mulherin continued: “Abortion as murder, therefore sin, which is the religious argument, is no more sinful, from a scriptural point of view, than all other sins we don’t legislate against, like greed, hate and fornication. The latter, being fornication, I would say, is probably the single most likely cause of unwanted pregnancies in this country.”Independent Roscommon-South Leitrim TD Luke “Ming” Flanagan rounded on Ms Mulherin for her remarks. He claimed that, in the past, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil had a problem with extramarital sex.“And now we hear a member of this Government has a problem with fornication,” Mr Flanagan added. “Where are we going?”He said Ireland, which had been run by the two parties, had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the modern world.“Heels were dragged on symphysiotomy and redress for more women, on women having to leave work on marriage, on contraception, divorce,” he added.Addressing Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil TDs, he said it was quite clear that “Archbishop McQuaid’s crozier is firmly still around your necks”. He said there was some hope, given that Labour had been more positive.The Government defeated the Private Members’ Bill, seeking to create a legal framework for abortion in Ireland where a woman’s life was at risk, by 111 votes to 20.The Bill was introduced by Socialist Party TD Clare Daly, along with People Before Profit TD Joan Collins and Independent TD Mick Wallace.Minister for Health Dr James Reilly rejected it on the grounds that the House should await an expert group report on the matter.Fianna Fáil health spokesman Billy Kelleher said they should await the findings.“At that point, we can have a fair and rational debate on all the issues involved and, I hope, arrive at a solution that will address the abortion issue which, as I noted, has been divisive, emotive and destructive at times during the years.”Supporting the Bill, Sinn Féin deputy leader Mary Lou McDonald said her party believed it should be allowed to proceed to committee stage when it could be amended. “What is certain is that it is time for legislation to be finally enacted to protect the rights of women, as decided by the Supreme Court in 1992,” she said.Carlow-Kilkenny Labour TD Ann Phelan commended Ms Daly for introducing the Bill.“Yesterday in Leinster House, with a number of other deputies and Senators, I met some Irish women who had to go in the past to the UK for a termination,” she said. “We heard their harrowing stories and what they had to go through. In the near future, I hope there will be an end to those harrowing stories and that we will not have to hear them again.”Sligo-North Leitrim FG TD Tony McLoughlin said he believed the Bill was flawed.“The life of the mother already takes precedence in medicine, as, of course, it should,” he added. “In Ireland, thankfully, we have one of the lowest maternal mortality rates in the world.”Well, I found this a rather surprising issue this week in Ireland.

Socialist party TD Clare Daly introduced a bill calling for the legalisation of abortion in Ireland. It was supported by the Socialist Party, People before profit, Sinn Fein and other Independants.

It was rejected strongly by Fianna Fail and the Incumbent conservatives Fine Gael. But what is surprising is that it was also rejected by the Labour party whom, just one week previously supported it in their annual ard feis (annual high meeting). So amongst themselves they supported it but were against abortion when their coalition partners Fine Gael were present? Its easy to see who wear's the pants in this relationship.

Then, we also saw the emerging of a new chrisitian psychopath Michelle Mulherin...I've never heard of her before, which just goes to show how little she is interested in real issues.She talked like a christian conservative that one might have heard speaking back in the 1950's. She's the wingman of Taoseach Enda Kenny, so that dosent say much for him neither. Even the Minister for Health, who is also a Doctor refused to voice his personal opinion on the issue.

Just when I think this government cant get any worse it manages to do so. Selling out almost every state asset to the ECB/IMF, introducing punitive charges to the working class, continuing to harass the working class with media propaganda and forcing young people to emigrate once again as it provides no means of employment.

The real tragedy in all of this are the pregnant mothers whom are forced to travel to the UK for services that should be provided here. Many have had to do this on account of being raped.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

The war on women continues..

In Arizona they just voted to ban late-term abortions, after 20 weeks...there was that case in Nebraska where a pregnant woman had to give birth at 22 weeks to a baby that died within minutes because the doctors feared prosecution if they gave her an abortion.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's disgraceful and makes me so sad :(

[Tim Cornelis]

The war on women continues..

In Arizona they just voted to ban late-term abortions, after 20 weeks...there was that case in Nebraska where a pregnant woman had to give birth at 22 weeks to a baby that died within minutes because the doctors feared prosecution if they gave her an abortion.

Five months to decide whether you want to keep the baby or not sounds reasonable to me. Of course with the reasonable exceptions such as the example you named, as well as numerous other scenarios.

At a certain point it's not just about the woman, but also about the baby. In my opinion, abortion should not be allowed when the fetus is able to feel pain. Scientists' opinions range from week 18 to week 29. So... I don't know exactly when.

On topic, I did not know Ireland was such a conservative country. Especially conspicuous that the Labour Party would vote against this bill while the bill itself would be reactionary in many countries. Allowing abortion when the woman's life is at risk is a basal woman's right, yet this supposedly progressive party votes against it. Truly unbelievable.

EDIT:

Before someone is going to accuse me of being anti-abortion, anti-woman, or whatever: 98.6 percent of all abortions are performed before week 21, i.e. that's the number of abortions that are permissible in my opinion. Secondly, I can imagine (though I cannot back this up with facts) the abortions that occur after week 21 are more likely to be because of medical reasons. In other words, I would approve of more than 99 percent of all abortions that take place. So no, I'm not against abortion.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

...*braces for the tedious, nobody-wins life vs choice abortion debate*

[Lee Van Cleef]

...*braces for the tedious, nobody-wins life vs choice abortion debate*
There shouldn't be such a debate on this forum.


Five months to decide whether you want to keep the baby or not sounds reasonable to me. Of course with the reasonable exceptions such as the example you named, as well as numerous other scenarios.

At a certain point it's not just about the woman, but also about the baby. In my opinion, abortion should not be allowed when the fetus is able to feel pain. Scientists' opinions range from week 18 to week 29. So... I don't know exactly when.
Five months is not as long as it may seem. I doubt having an abortion is a decision that anyone makes lightly, especially in places where women are demonized for doing so.

I've heard a lot of propaganda against late-term abortions, but not so many facts. "When the fetus feels pain" is a slippery slope argument. Why not choose some other arbitrary phase of development? Many people want to ban abortion after the fetus has a heart beat, or when the brain is a certain size. Ultimately it's just a modification of the "life begins at conception" argument. The simple fact is that up until 6 or 7 months, a fetus cannot possibly survive on its own.

On the topic of the OP, it is indeed a shame to see another setback in Ireland. You mention this Christian firebrand has seemingly popped out of nowhere. Let us hope she crawls back to whatever cave she came from. I can't believe people are ranting against "fornication" in 2012.

[pastradamus]

...*braces for the tedious, nobody-wins life vs choice abortion debate*

Yes, lets try and adress the issue at hand rather than let this thread get tedious.

[pastradamus]

Five months is not as long as it may seem. I doubt having an abortion is a decision that anyone makes lightly, especially in places where women are demonized for doing so.

Agreed. I've heard cases of women not knowing they were pregnant UNTIL 5 months. One such case was where the fetus was of a very light weight and the mother continued having her regular cycles until 3 months.



On the topic of the OP, it is indeed a shame to see another setback in Ireland. You mention this Christian firebrand has seemingly popped out of nowhere. Let us hope she crawls back to whatever cave she came from. I can't believe people are ranting against "fornication" in 2012.


Yeah, an independant TD by the Name of Luke Flanaghan (who is known for his libertarian views on Cannabis) absolutely destroyed her in a rant. It might surprise many Americans and others to learn that these hardline Christian views aren't as common as in many other parts of the world and that is what makes this womans remarks all the more surpising. "Fornication" is a word that I have never heard outside Conservative backwaters in the Southern United States, its a form of Dixie language that is most irregular over here.

Btw, You win the prize for having the most awesome user name on revleft.com. LVC is a legend!

[Tim Cornelis]

Five months is not as long as it may seem. I doubt having an abortion is a decision that anyone makes lightly, especially in places where women are demonized for doing so.

I've heard a lot of propaganda against late-term abortions, but not so many facts. "When the fetus feels pain" is a slippery slope argument. Why not choose some other arbitrary phase of development? Many people want to ban abortion after the fetus has a heart beat, or when the brain is a certain size. Ultimately it's just a modification of the "life begins at conception" argument. The simple fact is that up until 6 or 7 months, a fetus cannot possibly survive on its own.

My point is not about "life", it's about pain. Regarding the bolded part, that's true. But I don't know whether a fetus can receive anesthesia. If that is possible then arguably 6 or even 7 months is permissible.

Admittedly, I haven't looked into both sides extensively. The reason I chose 'pain' as determinant is because the idea of hurting such a small thing makes me somewhat uncomfortable.

But as I've said in the 'edit', I already approve of 99% of the abortions performed.

PS. I do feel uncomfortable using words like 'approve' and 'permissible' as it's not really my terrain.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Yeah, an independant TD by the Name of Luke Flanaghan (who is known for his libertarian views on Cannabis) absolutely destroyed her in a rant. It might surprise many Americans and others to learn that these hardline Christian views aren't as common as in many other parts of the world and that is what makes this womans remarks all the more surpising. "Fornication" is a word that I have never heard outside Conservative backwaters in the Southern United States, its a form of Dixie language that is most irregular over here.

Btw, You win the prize for having the most awesome user name on revleft.com. LVC is a legend!
Ah, yeah that is interesting. There's a conception here that Ireland is a deeply conservative country, so I could have seen her opinion as being popular despite the extreme language.

And thank you. He is a legend indeed. :cool:

[Sasha]

animals feel pain, plants feel pain... even bacteria, cancers and virussus react when attacked...
if we would accept starting to feel "pain" as a break off point for a medical procedure the more arguments to take "self awareness" as the point one does not abort anymore, after all we constantly hurt a lot of things that can feel "pain", we might limmit the "pain" as much as possible but when we deem it nescecary most of us will do it without hesistation. So self awareness seem a far more reasonable definition of valuable or sacred "life" than the ability to feel pain. with me?
but when does self-awarness or consiousness start? some cultures historicly have put this pretty late considering infants not humans and thinking nothing about and have widespread practises of infanticide. I myself think this practice and believe rose from material circumstances and is and should been made redundant by pre-natal screening for all kinds of disseases and aflictions but even then i do not oppose medical euthanesia of infants in any way.

maybe this article can give some food for thought: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise

[pastradamus]

y.

maybe this article can give some food for thought: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise

Excellent article!:thumbup1:

[gorillafuck]

...*braces for the tedious, nobody-wins life vs choice abortion debate*opposing legalized abortion is against the rules on this forum.

Five months to decide whether you want to keep the baby or not sounds reasonable to me. Of course with the reasonable exceptions such as the example you named, as well as numerous other scenarios.are the anarchy police going to enforce that?

[Ocean Seal]

are the anarchy police going to enforce that?
This is kind of irrelevant, and to some degree tendency baiting.

Back on topic. Of course its pretty bad that the Irish Labor Party doesn't support abortion, but then again, this is Ireland that we're talking about. Didn't they only legalize divorce in 1997?

[Yuppie Grinder]

It's pathetic that a highly-developed and prosperous nation like Ireland hasn't legalized abortion or even divorce yet.

[pastradamus]

It's pathetic that a highly-developed and prosperous nation like Ireland hasn't legalized abortion or even divorce yet.

They have legalised divorce.

[pastradamus]

This is kind of irrelevant, and to some degree tendency baiting.

Back on topic. Of course its pretty bad that the Irish Labor Party doesn't support abortion, but then again, this is Ireland that we're talking about. Didn't they only legalize divorce in 1997?

To understand the issue one must go back to the Catholic Church. They ran this country with an Iron fist. De Valera and his goons gave the Chuch a "special position" in Ireland. Things were crazy. Condoms were banned until 1985 and before that you needed a prescription from a Doctor - which in turn was very expensive and would cost about a quarter of a weeks wages. The amount of abuse, both physical and child abuse that went on and a blind eye turned to it by the state. The fact that many escaped and went on to live good and successful lives is remarkable. There was also a thing called the "magdeline laundries". Laundries ran by the Magdeline sisters. Young women were conscripted into these if they got pregnant outside marraige and were effectively slaves to the Church and some suffered serious abuse under them. Divorce was illegal for some time (despite numerous referendums) and the father always recieved custody of the children if the pair seperated. People were effectively brainwashed by the Church and most journalists didnt have the balls to speak out. Almost all the schools were run by the Church and they recruited young students to enter their ranks. I remember being in school and the members of the clergy would enter and ask for pupils to donate money (which meant bumming of parents) for stuff such as newspapers and charity (peru and the philippines were popular at the time) and you would feel almost obliged to donate as it would make you look like a morale person to your teacher and others (or so you thought).

Thankfully, things have changed dramatically. If I told most young people what happened back then, between the ages of 10-15 today they'd think I was joking about all this.

People have been prosecuted for the abuses that Catholic church did back then (not nearly enough people btw). The church has handed over millions of their assets to the state in compensation, condoms are as available as they are in most EU states, Divorce is legal, the Laundaries are shut down, the whole thing is almost cleared up - except the right to abortion. Most young women these days that want to avail of the service need to go to the UK to do so. Everyday, 13 Irish women (mostly accompanied by their male partner, just to blow the outrage quoted in the OP outta the water) go to the UK for abortion procedures. Its an absolute disgrace that we dont provide such a service here.

Ireland is a very well developed country ecomonically. For a country with less than 5 million people we have a GDP of €100 BN which is quite high for that population. It is a modern country and not somthing form the 1800's like a lot of people think it is. It would rival any EU state on the Libertarian views of its people...it just our lawmakers and the scumbags in offices' refusal to legislate for abortion.

[Raúl Duke]

I recall hearing some time ago that the issue of abortion has a strong class dimension, legalizing abortion in Ireland mostly affect the working class/poor since I heard that Irish women, if they have the money to burn, could fly into the UK and get an abortion easily...

[shankane]

Abortion has always been a class issue.

[pastradamus]

I recall hearing some time ago that the issue of abortion has a strong class dimension, legalizing abortion in Ireland mostly affect the working class/poor since I heard that Irish women, if they have the money to burn, could fly into the UK and get an abortion easily...

An interesting one that makes food for thought...

I wouldn't say that its a class issue totally in a financial context. You can get a boat/flight to the UK for less than €100 return and the procedure itself costs about €2000 but I would say that its a class issue in so far as not permitting it is a decaying of female liberty, about what they can and can not do with their bodies.

Obviously, its going to effect Working class women more than the upper class women due to A) there being a larger working class as a percentage of the population and B) the Working class having less money for such a move. Rape has to also be taken into mind on this issue btw...in which case the state also dosent allow for.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Back on topic. Of course its pretty bad that the Irish Labor Party doesn't support abortion, but then again, this is Ireland that we're talking about.
The IRSP has been pro-choice since 1975.

[BOZG]

Back on topic. Of course its pretty bad that the Irish Labor Party doesn't support abortion, but then again, this is Ireland that we're talking about. Didn't they only legalize divorce in 1997?

The worst part about the LP's capitulation is that that this wouldn't even have created abortion on demand which would require a constitutional referendum to introduce. The Bill introduced by Clare Daly was to legislate for the Supreme Court ruling on the X case in 1992 and the European Court of Human Rights 2010 ruling on the ABC cases that the mother has the right to an abortion in Ireland under very limited circumstances, if her life is at risk due to potential complications with the pregnancy or through her mental health. The Supreme Court ruling gives scope for abortions to be performed in Ireland under these conditions but there is no legislative basis to it which means that many doctors and nurses are afraid to perform them as they have no clear, legal protection.

The LP's response is hardly surprising though. Their new policy is to oddly vote against things they support.

[Crux]

I have to say fair play to Patrick "I will always vote with the government" Nulty TD for voting for the bill. But then again if standing by pre-election positions, and the position on abortion reaffirmed by the labour membership at the recent conference, is what passes as "principled" this says more about the Labour party than Nulty. He was already expelled from the parliamentary group of the LP for voting against parts of the budget so then again he didn't have much to lose. Perhaps he has a desire to keep his seat come the next election.

[pastradamus]

I have to say fair play to Patrick "I will always vote with the government" Nulty TD for voting for the bill. But then again if standing by pre-election positions, and the position on abortion reaffirmed by the labour membership at the recent conference, is what passes as "principled" this says more about the Labour party than Nulty. He was already expelled from the parliamentary group of the LP for voting against parts of the budget so then again he didn't have much to lose. Perhaps he has a desire to keep his seat come the next election.

Yeah at least the guy stuck to his guns. Its rather surprising that he did given that Labour has almost always stuck with party whip. Its Joan Burton that gets to me though. One the one hand she rants and raves about women rights pre-election and then goes off and votes down abortion. Kathleen Lynch of the Labour party is also another sell-out. Someone famous in the 80's as a campaigner for womens rights and then this. Totall sellouts in the true sense of the word.

[MotherCossack]

political prostitutes.....
dont they make you wanna puke.?

no sign of belief
look in their eyes
see only lies

listen with care
no truth there

question them straight
be ready to wait....

watch them squirm
like does a worm

what are they for
the political whore

a famous flower
known as power.

sorry about that.... hope it is on topic enough... they just pop out i kind of think some politicians...... what are they like....!

[Crux]

It will be interesting to see how big the backlash against labour will be, given that not only are they a party of austerity but they've sold out on their "social liberal" issues as well. Their present voting base isn't exactly stable.

[pastradamus]

It will be interesting to see how big the backlash against labour will be, given that not only are they a party of austerity but they've sold out on their "social liberal" issues as well. Their present voting base isn't exactly stable.

After the last election they commanded 19.4% of the vote which is the second highest in their history following the backlash and fallout of the Fianna Fail share.
In the next election, which will be local I can see them taking a hammering as people will either vote for Fianna Fail again or instead vote for the peripheral parties like the Greens, Sinn Fein, Socialists, PBP, Independants and others. They will always have that national presence though. Household names like Gilmore, Burton, Howlin, Stagg, Kelly, Rabitte and Quinn will continue to control their seats simply based on their national reputation as statesmen. I hate seeing this in Ireland, that people vote for the sameness that these people offer.

I mean when it became clear that Fine Gael were going to win the election Labour went around saying, "vote for us, so that FG will have to form a coalition and we can keep them on their toes". Real trashy and useless babble. In my opinion all Labour do is sapp up much of the scorn that should be directed at Fine Gael as people seem a little more disgusted with their betrayal. It was exactly the same result when the Greens went into government with Fianna Fail, the GP was practically destroyed and now only control 2% of the vote share. They lost both their TD's and were equally destroyed in Local elections as they lost control of most of their concillors going from 18 all the way down to three.

[pastradamus]

Just a quick note to show the balance of power in the Irish parliment, Senate, Councillors, MEPS.

Daíl Eireann Seanad Councillors MEPS
Fine Gael : 76 20 556 4
Labour : 37 12 231 3
Fianna Fail : 20 14 407 3
Sinn Fein : 14 3 127 1
Socialist (ULA) : 2 0 6 1
People before Profit (ULA): 2 0 5 0
WUAG (ULA) : 1 0 7 0
Greens: 0 0 18 0
SKIP : 0 0 2 0
Workers Party: 0 0 2 0
Independants: 16 12 275 1