now testify!

[ratm545]

I know it's been forever since I've been here, and I doubt any of the older people are still here, but to those who knew me, and anyone who is interested. Here is the most important thing that has/will happen to me:

In my previous life, I was a typical 14-16 year old. Smokin weed, drinkin some, and readin my socialist material like a good boy. I was at the point in my life where I was pretty much miserable, homelife was bad, I was very suicidal and had nothing in life that was important. I felt that the Christian God didn't exist, and couldn't, how could he let people go to Hell that he loves? How can he allow suffering to take place? Common questions, so I found myself at an agnostic/atheist state of mind. Until I was in Grayson, KY, USA. No special word came to me that made me believe, no new evidence came to me in material form, nobody said anything to me inparticular that made me think, but the feeling just simply overcame me, for no reason, not a lack of anything in my life that my imagination conjured up. The Holy Spirit came upon me and I knew how real He is. I realized how much I was loved by the Lord, and the great great sacrifice He made for me so that I may inherit eternal life in Heaven with my Father. I decided to give my life to the Lord, as a living sacrifice to Him, I confessed Christ as my Savior, as the Son of God, that He came to save me, and on the following day I was baptized in a lake and received the Holy Spirit as my own. This was about 6 months ago. I can't express to you in writing how much more life is. The joy, the hope, the passion, the purpose, everything that He has given to me, to somebody that betrays Him, and even denied His existence, I'm ashamed of myself, but through Him I know that I'm accepted and that I'll be living forever in Heaven. Not that this is what it's about, but it's definitely a HUGE ad-on to have this overwhelming joy and peace in my life, my only want is to serve Him, for I know His love, His power, His grace, and that my King came and died for me.

please take some time to consider, and don't consider yourself 'too smart for religion' as I once did. You must face the truth before it faces you. God bless :)

[truthaddict11]

lol what a load of crap! exact OPPOSITE happened to me. i was razed christian even was "baptized" then when i reached about 14 a rejected all that religion garbage and became an atheist. may "god" reign his "wrath" upon me. :lol:

[ratm545]

I was raised Christian as well, rejected God about the same age as well. But I've simply come to know the truth before you. Baptism can simply be getting wet (why infant baptism is pointless, not by the person's own will). I'm not here to debate religion, but simply share my story and offer an ear to listen to if anyone is interested in talking about the subject. The God I serve is real.

[FatFreeMilk]

Oh, ok, I see what you meant in your pm :) Umm if this is what rocks your boat or finds your lost remote then...Yeah, things aren't that simple for me. I haven't found the holy spirit (hey I didn't know he had a gender :) ) . I never take the time to think of religion or what I believe in. I'm being raised Catholic but it doesn't make no difference to me. I have other things to think about. I don't even know if I believe in "God" or not. Oh well.

Testify what?

[ratm545]

"now testify"- witness.
"my testimony" - my witness of what happened in my life.

but yeah, i definitely encourage you to think about it, religous or not, it's an interesting subject. and can have some amazing results. you can become the happiest person in the world, and with that offer on the table, why not try it? -not really the reason, but gets you where you're goin. we have no idea when we'll die or be killed, take the oppurtunity that you have now to consider matters that are so imminent.

[FatFreeMilk]

The deepest probing into religion I've ever gotten into was when this Jehovah's Witness lady came to my house. And of course I used to be all scared of what happens after death and stuff, but that doesn't really have to do with religion. Or does it? Anyways, my conclusion is this: Just live your life and if you die, well you die. If there is nothing after death then who cares, you know, you got one life to live, live it to the fullest. If there is like heaven or hell then well, I'll just wait and find out. You can always repent or whatever to get into heaven (well at least that's what my catholic teacher lady taught me), if that's what you wanted. Aww shit I was gonna say something else but I forgot. Oh yeah, I just wonder if god finds you or you find him. Assuming that he (?) exists.

[Anastacia]

Great. We have more christians here. I thought I was alone... God bless you ratm545!

[@[email protected]@]

Dear friends: I know not many to your feeling. China has an ancient speech: Enriches oneself, then can arrange the good family, then can manage the good country, then can cause the world to change happily.

[The Feral Underclass]

For a start you said that you were suicidle...


I was at the point in my life where I was pretty much miserable, homelife was bad, I was very suicidal and had nothing in life that was important.

You then contradict yourself...


the feeling just simply overcame me, for no reason, not a lack of anything in my life that my imagination conjured up.

God dosnt exist...for two reasons. It is absolutly impossible for him to exist in a material form and nothing can exist without material form..."if there is a voice, there must be vocal chords - or else we do not know what a voice is! Try as you will, you cannot separate a single one of the manifestations of our human life activity from the material body."

There are also to many variants of religions which have developed throughout history to logically conclude that one is right. And they can not all be right because that would negate gods infaluable existance.


I'm ashamed of myself, but through Him I know that I'm accepted and that I'll be living forever in Heaven

To explain heaven Alan Woods sums it up perfectly in his essay 'Marxism and Relgion'...


"The soul is supposed to be immaterial. But what is life without matter?...The common idea of "life after death" is more or less a continuation of the life we have led on earth (since we can know no other). After the soul has fled the body, it apparently "wakes up" in a beautiful land where we are miraculously united with our loved ones, to a life of eternal joy in which sickness and old age are banished. It is sufficient to pose the question concretely to see that this is impossible. If we consider all the things that make life worth living: eating good food, drinking fine wines (or, for the English, a good strong cup of tea), singing, dancing, embracing, making love etc., it will be immediately evident that all these activities are inseparably connected with the body and its physical attributes. More cerebral pastimes like talking, reading, writing and thinking are equally bound up with our bodily organs. The same is true of breathing, or any other of the activities which, in their totality, we call life.

As a matter of fact, an existence from which all pain and suffering were absent would be intolerable for human beings. A world in which everything was white would actually be the same as a world in which everything was black. From a strictly medical point of view, pain has an important function. It is not just an evil, but a warning from the body that all is not well. Pain is part of the human condition. Not only that: pain and pleasure are dialectically related. Without the existence of pain, pleasure could not exist. Don Quixote explained to Sancho Panza that the best sauce was hunger. Likewise, we rest far better after a period of vigorous exertion."

To conclude Woods very elegantly says...


"But what harm is there in believing in another life? Not a lot, it might seem. And yet, is it not undesirable to miseducate men and women, and encourage them to construct their lives around an illusion? To the degree that we put behind us all illusions and see the world as it really is, and ourselves as we really are, we can acquire the necessary knowledge to change the world and ourselves...The knowledge that this life is fleeting, that we and our loved ones will not always be here, far from being a cause for dismay, should inspire us with a passionate love of life, and a burning desire to make it better for all. We know that every flower is born only to wither, and in some sense the transience of the bloom lends it a tragic beauty. But we also know that nature blossoms afresh each spring, and that the eternal cycle of birth and death that is the essence of every living thing is what gives life its bittersweet flavour, that comedy and tragedy, laughter and tears are what makes life the rich mosaic of human sensations that it is. This is our inescapable destiny as human beings. For we are humans, not gods, and must embrace our human condition. We have the disadvantage over the gods that we are mortal. But we also have the great advantage over them that we actually exist in flesh and blood, whereas they are mere disembodied figments of the imagination."

The entire essay is at:

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_...d_religion.html (http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_religion.html)

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You realise of course that you will have to stop being a Marxist.
Marxism is an ideology based on material reality, christianity is based around the spirit world 'heaven'
Although you can deduce the existance of god through philosophical means, it's still not hard evidence: in science you have to prove a hypothesys.

I believe you are a sucker and hope the truth, when you rediscover it, is not too painful.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 04:51 PM
lol what a load of crap! exact OPPOSITE happened to me. i was razed christian even was "baptized" then when i reached about 14 a rejected all that religion garbage and became an atheist. may "god" reign his "wrath" upon me. :lol:
Seconded, although I became an atheist at 16.

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

Why do you christians try to convert us? I assume its because were atheist typically, however Socialism is a very compasionate movement, -the ultimate in equality. So even if there did turn out to be a heaven and hell, i would have no fear, as I am a good person, lacking evils such as prejudice and greed.

[redstar2000]

Until I was in Grayson, KY, USA.

Quite possibly the asshole of America.


The Holy Spirit came upon me and I knew how real He is.

You suffered a "minor" brain stroke.


I realized how much I was loved by the Lord, and the great great sacrifice He made for me so that I may inherit eternal life in Heaven with my Father.

That's the reason that I put "minor" in quotes.


I decided to give my life to the Lord, as a living sacrifice to Him, I confessed Christ as my Savior, as the Son of God, that He came to save me, and on the following day I was baptized in a lake and received the Holy Spirit as my own.

The only holy spirit I ever saw in Kentucky was alcoholic. Perhaps you were simply drunk.


This was about 6 months ago. I can't express to you in writing how much more life is. The joy, the hope, the passion, the purpose, everything that He has given to me, to somebody that betrays Him, and even denied His existence, I'm ashamed of myself, but through Him I know that I'm accepted and that I'll be living forever in Heaven.

If there's anything you should be ashamed of, it's inflicting this mindless babble on the readers of this board.

But then you don't exactly have a mind any more, do you?


Not that this is what it's about, but it's definitely a HUGE ad-on to have this overwhelming joy and peace in my life, my only want is to serve Him, for I know His love, His power, His grace, and that my King came and died for me.

It's nearly enough to drive a sane person to Satanism, isn't it?


God bless

Humans curse!

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

ratm545;

You are mentally ill, a robot, if there's any shred of humanity left in you I appeal to it
to come out and retake that polluted mind, shake off the chains of superstition and ignorance,
and stand up to thousands of years of tyranny.

For your own sake.

[Al Creed]

I was raised Christian, and I once believed, until I reached the age of 16. MOST of my family are deeply religious, especially my dad's side.

When I reached 16, I realized only I, and not mystical force, not some all-powerful diety, not some long-standing, popular cultural ritual, had control over my life, and my destiny. My life will be what I make of it, not what is dictated to me.

Change will not happen by asking god (I didnt capitalize that word on purpose) to help. Change can only be sparked by YOU.

I too, was a depressed, miserable, pestimistic, cynical teen. Yet, it didn't take an archaic, outdated belief system to make me happy. I went out, and I found activities, ideas, and people, who made me happy. god never lead me to my happiness, I did.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Religion the "savior" of the desperate.

You're onfortunatly a classical evidence of people who "convert" to religion, because they're in a lot of trouble.This God forms the reason why you and people in your position haven't commited suïcide. Altough I am happy that you haven't commited suïcide, I do have to say to you believe in a fantasy world. Seen from a scientific point, God has not been proven, nor the Biblical wonders. Thus believing in something like that is fantasy. There is little difference, between believing in God, drinking booz, smoking pot or doing drugs all day. You're avoiding reality. It's time that you see matters under eyes, as they are and that you don't wait for Capitalism to devestate you, while you're waiting for "salvation". Please don't wait for God to rescue you and don't expect miracles, things only gets done when you make effort to achieve a goal. You're in a Fantasyworld.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Hey, come on! Be nice!



"I believe you are a sucker and hope the truth, when you rediscover it, is not too painful."

"If there's anything you should be ashamed of, it's inflicting this mindless babble on the readers of this board. But then you don't exactly have a mind any more, do you?"

"You are mentally ill, a robot, if there's any shred of humanity left in you I appeal to it
to come out and retake that polluted mind"

"You're in a Fantasyworld."


I'm getting negative vibes here, man...

Hang in there ratm545!!! I too, am a believer. And there is no shame in that whatsoever. As I have tried to argue before, Marxists CAN be religious. Narrow minded elitists seem to disagree. Now, what has been said so far?



So even if there did turn out to be a heaven and hell, i would have no fear, as I am a good person, lacking evils such as prejudice and greed.


But you have disobeyed one of the fundamental laws; love your God. Therefore you will burn.



"Although you can deduce the existance of god through philosophical means, it's still not hard evidence"

"Seen from a scientific point, God has not been proven, nor the Biblical wonders"


This is true. But why do you demand proof? Therein lies the whole basis of FAITH. There is no 'proof' for Marxism; there has never been a Marxist Revolution. And yet we all (seemingly blindly) follow it and it's principles... I am a Marxist because I believe in the values it subscribes to. Logically, I can follow Marxist theory and reach the conclusion that Karl did 150 years ago, the inevitability of a Proletarian Revolution. There is no proof. But yet I "believe".

Stop being so damned shortsighted.

[Saint-Just]

You give us no real explanation of what happened to you. You only say that somehow God just came over you and you felt him. I think what is more likely is that you have been brainwashed. Or, possibly your an ignorant individual who makes himself feel happy by subscribing to a false belief that makes your life feel meaningful.


The only holy spirit I ever saw in Kentucky was alcoholic. Perhaps you were simply drunk.

Or maybe he is drunk now.

After the revolution babble such as this will not exist. Its also a bit amusing that you seem so interested in Rage Against The Machine, they are atheists and speak out against the evangelical Christianity you are expousing. You are an individual who seems to lack the mode of thought to contribute anything creative to society. After the revolution I hope you will be re-educated to utilise the creativity and independance that exists within you and develop a consciousness of the material world. If not I hope that you will be imprisoned or executed because what you preach is babble that can be amusing to some people, but to others, can reduce them to mental cripples.

Having said this in your situation it may be very difficult to think clearly if you are very depressed, destitute and have been considering committing suicide. Such is the nature of capitalist society.

Since we seem to have come onto the topic of when or if we acquired religious beleifs. I actually rejected religion when I was around eight years old. This was at a school where Christianity was quite heavily pushed/ Looking back I cannot pinpoint the reason. My father was an atheist, and since I respected him so greatly I became almost fanatical in my atheism at the time.

[Se7en]

I too was raised Christian and have gradually left the faith over the last 1.5 years. It's nothing more than a complex synthesis of Gnosticism, Pagan Occultism, and Judaism, but no Christian that I've met really seems to care about the origin or development of their "absolute truth." Man has fashioned god into Man's image. That being said, I am no atheist. These days I consider myself a Deist.

"God exists...and there it lies." -Thomas Paine

Anything beyond that is speculation.

[The Feral Underclass]

Children of the Revolution

Of course you can claim to be a marxist and religous at the same time...it is quite easy to do. However Marxism is based on material conclusions...how can you claim to follow materialism and then have "faith" in something that is supposed to exist immaterially.

It has nothing to do with elitism. The entire basis of marxism is founded in a materialistic belief. They exclude each other by themselves. There is no need for eliteism.


There is no 'proof' for Marxism;

Of course there is proof. It is called materialism. It is a belief based on analysis of things that exist. it is based on objectivism. Marx did not put faith in superstitious ideals, he studied, analyzed, critzised and concluded on things that exist. That he could see and understand.

Your "faith" has no such grounding. In fact all it is is faith. Blinding devotion to something that can not be proven to exist, but that can have several objective arguments to claim it does not.


am a Marxist because I believe in the values it subscribes to.

How can you and believe in the existance of an immaterial creation. As I said Marxism is founded in a materialistic view, they contradict each other.


I can follow Marxist theory and reach the conclusion that Karl did 150 years ago, the inevitability of a Proletarian Revolution

So you believe the process of historical materialism developed after god created us?

[ratm545]

I believe Christianity is very socialist in actual practice. IF (which I'm not) am wrong, so what? life is short, and soon it will be past (it's only what you've done for the Lord that will last), so what if help people out my whole life and better the world I live in and the world around me? Right or wrong, nothing bad about this life. My internet is horrible and it is hard for me to get on here at all anymore, so I will leave you with this, being as there is way to much material to debate up there, contact me personally if you'd like actual discussion and not just criticizing me. He IS coming, I am not brainwashed by any means, I am extremely happy, I feel privleged to serve Him. This life is short, there is something afterwards, I can't prove God, but i know Him, and there is no way I could possibly deny this relationship I have as non-existent.

stay strong Children of the Revolution and Anastacia.

yes Grayson KY is the armpit of the world.

If you want freedom, join the fight for Christianity, my soul has never been more free.

[Soviet power supreme]

join the fight for Christianity

Yes Damn those muslims and other heretics.Even their heaven is better than christian heaven.


The Holy Spirit came upon me and I knew how real He is. I realized how much I was loved by the Lord, and the great great sacrifice He made for me so that I may inherit eternal life in Heaven with my Father.

What sacrifice?
The Death of that bastard Jesus? and yes he was bastard child.

And how does these teologists can read the bible so wrong.
I mean God has killed more people in the ancient than humans did then.
What about the noah's arc story.He just drowned almost every person in the world.There are so god damn many stories where god kills people in bible.
And that bastard son jesus.He just fucked the maria and left the boy alone.

So he can break the commandents and we can't?

Thou shall not kill!
Thou shall not commit adultery!

[mentalbunny]

Have fun ratm! I have no complaints, you be as religious as you want as long as you go for liberation theology rather than all that other crap it's ok.

get reading up on that liberation theology then! that's the only stuff we can use, the rest is bullshit used to keep the workers at the bottom of the pile.

[Comandante Mashka]

Hey Cub,

What Church/denomination are you into now?

[The Feral Underclass]

BUT YOU DONT HAVE A SOUL!!!

[redstar2000]

He IS coming, I am not brainwashed by any means, I am extremely happy, I feel privileged to serve Him. This life is short, there is something afterwards, I can't prove God, but I know Him, and there is no way I could possibly deny this relationship I have as non-existent.

Sad. Perhaps someday we'll have some kind of medicine to treat this particular kind of delusion, the way serotonin re-uptake blockers help many people with severe depression.

Until that happens, the only thing that might help him return to reality is if some "sinful" attractive young woman seduced him. She might be able to directly convince him that reality is better than delusion.

No mere argument is going to do so...that's for sure!

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[canikickit]

hahahahaha

Are you saying that sex is the only cure for believing in god?

You say that ratm545 suffered a mild stroke, is this type of thing documented? I've had similar feelings of euphoria. Once I was feeling pretty sick, with a pounding headache, and i thought to myself "God, won't this pain ever end". The pain was alleviated somewhat, then I thought to myself, "thank you god, I believe I you" and this type of lark, and I started feeling really, really great and my heart was filled with joy...all the stereotypical shit.

I figured it was just a headrush, then the "happiness endorphins", or whatever they are, overwhelmed me.
I was pretty stoned at the time also.

I've had similar experiences when I was listening to music and feeling ill - I convinced myself that the music was so good that it could heal me, and lo, I feel fine.

Maybe Jesus is walking beside me.

[Umoja]

I really doubt medical phenomena would create a similar sensation in so many people, but I've only heard of Westerners discovering the Holy Spirit.

Regardless, I'm happy that you've found something that made you happy, as long as it doesn't blind you into irrational transcendentalism.

At the same time. Geez. Everyone here is so critical. I get this feeling of bab-phoria when I see some of this stuff, does that mean I got possessed by the Whole(Holy?) Kidney of Materialism? :huh:

[Moose]

i rejected religion cause my friends did, then when i considered doing so again, i really realised i never felt anythign from it, and organized religion isnt neccessary for our society to thrive anymore. its just another form of control and conformity. i believe there is something beyond our world, i just cant feel the holyness or somethin

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

So even if there did turn out to be a heaven and hell, i would have no fear, as I am a good person, lacking evils such as prejudice and greed.


So even if there did turn out to be a heaven and hell, i would have no fear, as I am a good person, lacking evils such as prejudice and greed.

But you have disobeyed one of the fundamental laws; love your God. Therefore you will burn.



D'oh :o ,at least i'll be warm i guess :P

[The Feral Underclass]

According to the bible somewhere, hell is a representation of all the things you have done on earth just ten times worse....

homosexual sex....
getting drunk...
taking drugs....
reading about materialism.....

wahaay, bring it on.....!!! :D

[redstar2000]

Are you saying that sex is the only cure for believing in god?

Desperate situations call for desperate measures. :lol:

Still, it would help him more than any mere arguments would...he is now "beyond rationality" obviously.

It probably won't happen, of course. What young woman would want to be sexually intimate with a god-sucker? She would have to take pity on the poor bastard and be prepared to listen to a lot of god-crap while she was getting his clothes off. Nor is it likely that he will be very attentive to her pleasure...considering that his "soul" will be struggling with the "devil" throughout the act.

A real long-shot, at best.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[The Children of the Revolution]

at least i'll be warm i guess :P


Ach, you never know... Hell could be bloody freezing!



BUT YOU DONT HAVE A SOUL!!!


I disagree. The mind and body are clearly distinct; the soul is the spiritual extension of the mind. (I realise you will demand proof. I have none, but neither do you...)



Sad. Perhaps someday we'll have some kind of medicine to treat this particular kind of delusion


Maybe. But there is only one cure for eternal damnation - belief in God. I choose this over belief in RedStar and his heretics! :P



... organized religion isnt neccessary for our society to thrive anymore. its just another form of control and conformity.


You don't have to be a member of a church to believe in God. Think I. Perhaps others would see things differently, but I developed my belief independently. Organised Religion has caused many problems in the past, started many Wars, resulted in much suffering. But belief in the Lord has never, and will never, cause this.



... hell is a representation of all the things you have done on earth just ten times worse....


I believe that Hell is anywhere that isn't heaven. Could you imagine getting drunk and taking drugs for ETERNITY??? Would it not get a little boring after 1,000,000 years?



It probably won't happen, of course. What young woman would want to be sexually intimate with a god-sucker? She would have to take pity on the poor bastard and be prepared to listen to a lot of god-crap while she was getting his clothes off.


You are a fool. I really hope this isn't your outlook on life.

Marxism is indeed based on materialism; it's causes, effects, and consequences. You describe God as "immaterial" therefore suggesting that I (or anyone else) cannot believe and be a Marxist. But what about Love? This is not "material"... Therefore a Marxist cannot love? What about empathy and symathy? Can I not feel these emotions? Not everything in the Marxist World need be "material". My belief in God does not mean I cannot be a Marxist.

If I had to choose, (which I don't) I would give up Marxism without a second thought. Just as I would sooner live a life of poverty, or even lose my life ( :( :( :( ) rather than not believe.

[Pete]

But belief in the Lord has never, and will never, cause this.

I'm sorry, I've been avoiding posting in this thread just because I know that it is futile, but this statement draws me in.

The organized religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all believe in the same 'lord' (In the bible it is typed LORD God to avoid using the tetragramatron). Just opening the bible you can see people killing because they believed the lord told them to, because they believe in him.

Let me suggest Judges for example. Near the beginning an Israelite man tells his overlord that he has a 'message from the lord' for him. You know what that was? A sword in the belly.

Scripture, the basis of the religions of the lord (as you guys have been calling him) are steeped with violence. The rise of Islam is a bloody one. The estabilishment of Israel, the spread of christianity, the clashes between different christian sects. These are all caused by the belief in the lord.

Your statement is false.


But there is only one cure for eternal damnation - belief in God

I propose a second: disbelief in eternal damnation.
I propose a third: rebirth
I propose a fourth: samsara (similar to above but different)
I propose a fifth: moksha
I propose a sixth: nirvana
I propose a seventh and final: rational thought!

Heaven was created to give people who were afraid to die a meaning ful existant. Sheol is not a good place to go, but Abraham is there. But Noah is there. But Moses is there. But Job is there. That is, if you believe in it. Heaven is a joke.


Would it not get a little boring after 1,000,000 years?

What wouldn't?


I would give up Marxism without a second thought

Yet you still claim to be a Marxist? My take on Marxism means putting aside everything to fight for the class struggle. You obviously are unwilling to do that if it conflicts with your belief in another plain of existance. Well that is your right, but it makes you seem hardly trustworthy, now doesn't it?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

The Children of the Revolution

You're comparing it wrong. Believe in emotions is based on real life experience. I can see a man cry, love, hate etc. Believe in God on the other hand is based on nothing. I've never seen God or proof for god. Neither have I ever seen a trustworthy witness or evidence of God.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Your statement is false.


My statement, " ... belief in the Lord has never, and will never, cause this" was poorly phrased. I agree. What I meant was this: individual, non-fundamentalist belief does not promote violence and conflict. The scripture prohibits this; the New Testament suggests that one should always "Love thy Neighbour" whatever (or whoever) he may be. One should never retaliate, offer violence for violence, but should "turn the other cheek". I adhere to these "laws"; no-one can really argue against them.



I propose a second: disbelief in eternal damnation.
I propose a third: rebirth
I propose a fourth: samsara (similar to above but different)
I propose a fifth: moksha
I propose a sixth: nirvana
I propose a seventh and final: rational thought!


How does Rational thought or "disbelief in eternal damnation" save you in any way? You are just denying it's existence, if in fact it does exist, you will still suffer. The remaining alternatives (rebirth etc.) seem to stem from other religious beliefs of which I know little. But to be reborn in a reasonable state, (thus avoiding "damnation") mustn't one believe in God? Even if this God is not the Christian one?



Yet you still claim to be a Marxist? My take on Marxism means putting aside everything to fight for the class struggle. You obviously are unwilling to do that if it conflicts with your belief in another plain of existance. Well that is your right, but it makes you seem hardly trustworthy, now doesn't it?


If the Proletarian Revolution is inevitable, why fight for it? This would put you in Lenin's shoes, trying to impose the Revolution on a country unready for Revolution. I happen to admire Lenin and his vision; he was not a traditional Marxist though. Like I say, I can believe in God AND be a Marxist. The interests of both are unlikely to clash - give me some examples to consider if you can.

An interesting post, and thanks for not being as stubborn as RedStar. You at least accept my right to believe rather than branding us "God-Suckers" and "Bastards". This, in my view, constitutes progress! :D

[The Children of the Revolution]

My apologies "Non-Sectarian Bastard!", I didn't see your post.



You're comparing it wrong. Believe in emotions is based on real life experience. I can see a man cry, love, hate etc. Believe in God on the other hand is based on nothing. I've never seen God or proof for god. Neither have I ever seen a trustworthy witness or evidence of God.


My point was that there are "immaterial" concerns which all Marxists must acknowledge, and use. Emotions are "immaterial" but remain compatible with a Marxist "material" view of the World. God is "immaterial" - as has repeatedly been pointed out here, there is no concrete evidence supporting His existence - yet I believe in Him and follow Him AS WELL AS supporting the Marxist cause.



I've never seen God or proof for god.


Have you seen proof that He doesn't exist?

This is why believers must have FAITH.

[Pete]

How does Rational thought or "disbelief in eternal damnation" save you in any way?

I am of the opinion that your belief damns you because you believe, and disbelief avoids that because you do not believe in its existance. If that makes sense, if not I will clarify.


The remaining alternatives (rebirth etc.) seem to stem from other religious beliefs of which I know little

Ya I dipped into Hinduism and Buddhism for you there. But rebirth is a complex one. One could say that one is made up of all the cells they have consumed and are an incarnation of all the life consumed. I can't argue that, but others could.


But to be reborn in a reasonable state, (thus avoiding "damnation") mustn't one believe in God? Even if this God is not the Christian one?


No. Buddhism rejects atman, which is the centre of hinduism (some sects atleast). Atman is the self with in the self. The undying soul. It is also brahman, the life force present in everything. It is not a deity in the Western sense.

Samsara is the re-death one is stuck in until they achieve moksha in hinduism or nirvana in buddhism and escape the cycle of rebirth. One cannot explain these other states past using the negative 'neti neti.' (not this not this).

There is no need for a diety. Some can use it (bhakti yoga for example is centred on devotion), yet it is unnecassary. Albet they are religions, they can also be seen as philosophy which encompasses religion as an other interpretation of existance.

Basically, I think religion is bunk. It shows an inner weakness, or lack of confidence in yourself or your fellow humans. If you can trust yourself, your fellow humans, your planet, why look elsewhere for petty answers that only make sense with a presupposed belief?

-Pete

[Pete]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 6 2003, 01:11 PM
Have you seen proof that He doesn't exist?

This is why believers must have FAITH.
It is hard to prove a negative. Easier to prove a positive.

Some theologians proposed the 'numinous' as proof. The state that you are not alone, that there is something around you that is not you, that is 'wholly other' than you. I think his name was 'otto' something, but that helps with nothing locating the name of this german protestant man who the religious people in my class almost applauded when the prof mentioned him (I was disgusted, but that is a result of its appearance that they where drawing at strwas hoping for a pleasing answer).

But the numinous and wholly other are theories that are as abstact as some of the more distant emotions one can feel. They exist, but don't.

I attribute these feelings not to any silly otherworldly experience but to the reality that we are surrounded by life too small to see, and we momentarily recongize it, subconsiously.

-Pete

[DEPAVER]

I've gone back and forth with this issue for nearly 25 years, having been raised in a Christian, Baptist home, "saved," and finally converting to Catholism when I married a good Catholic. Good looking, at least.
For years, I searched for "why" not found any answer other than there is no "why," there only is, and existence has no purpose other than to be. I wish there was something out there, but I'm afraid there isn't.

The believe Judeo-Christian dogma is responsible for a number of ills in the world, not the least of which is its anthropological centrism. This particular aspect is one of the root causes of the burgeoning environmental crisis.

Homo sap has evolved a brain that allows him or her to contemplate this existence, and to try to insert meaning into it all. As is natural for one so equipped, the meaning of Life centers on the animal with the thinking organ. The Universe, if that's what it is, revolves around Man(not so)kind and all meaning therein spirals down to embrace this upstart, upright featherless biped who soils his own nest; and everyone else's in the immediate neighborhood.

We are all interconnected, but not in a spiritual way. The subatomic particles of my body were once a tree, a flower, a river, a mountain. When I die, those particles, or wavicles, or pinches of beingness will join their brethren in the wilds of nature and reconstitute themselves into some new living thing, a worm, a flower, a deer, maybe even a lynx, if I'm lucky.

As for consciousness, Who knows? I wish Who would get off his ass and tell me about it. It derives from electric charges swimming among the myriad synapses of our brains, sorting sensory impression from the world outside the safe deposit box of our skull, forming and analyzing patterns therefrom, discarding much that makes no sense in terms of survival and procreation, and routing the tiny remainder to the action parts, the supporting peripherals that provide defense, locomotion, sustenance and destinations for our genes.

Insufficiently spiritual, you say? Well, why not? This wondrous world we inhabit has great marvels in it, perceivable and appreciable only by the one creature in this world equipped to sit here in front of this collections of shiny minerals and colorful man-made substances and wax rhapsodic about it.

I don't require a vaporous Creator to wave His diaphanous wand to make it all happen. I don't need a Maker in his Image to sit up nights and admire His Handiwork. I don't require Inua, the spirit that moves through all things to sew them all together in a spiritual tapestry.

The only meaning in life is that humans see meaning in life. Humans have the capacity, whether they use it or not, for rational thought. We can haul off and decide, just because it seems right, that we shouldn't kill other humans, or any other living things. We can decide that some humans shouldn't have less access to food, shelter and clothing than other humans. Or we can decide that some humans are more equal than other humans and should get more than their fare share.

We won't make a lot of progress toward a rational human existence until we embrace the concept that all examples of Homo sap on the planet are human beings, and no human being must be any worse off than any other human being. The planet will benefit immensely from that realization alone, but when we
extend our commonality to all living things, we will have arrived at a state of brotherhood with all life.

As long as we ignore and deny our coexistence with all life, there is no spirit in us.

[The Children of the Revolution]

I am of the opinion that your belief damns you because you believe, and disbelief avoids that because you do not believe in its existance. If that makes sense, if not I will clarify.


Do you mean that not believing in Heaven/Hell makes them somehow not apply to you? Whereas if I believe in God, I must follow His guidelines to assure my place in Heaven? And presumably, if I do not, I am eternally damned and go to Hell? Do these guidelines change depending on the Religion? Is Islamic Heaven distinct from Christian Heaven? Please do explain!

You seem to know a lot about different cultures and religions; this is laudable. I will have to read up on the subjects concerned before I could possibly comment. However, my original point remains valid. One must believe in religion - deity or no - of some kind to avoid "eternal damnation". In the Western sense, a lack of faith (or denying its significance) will result in eternity in Hell. "Moksha" or "Nirvana" can only be achieved (such is my limited understanding) if one is "enlightened" enough - i.e. has a moment of insight - to break the cycle. This must surely involve a degree of faith?



Basically, I think religion is bunk. It shows an inner weakness, or lack of confidence in yourself or your fellow humans. If you can trust yourself, your fellow humans, your planet, why look elsewhere for petty answers that only make sense with a presupposed belief?


I disagree. You must be confident and steadfast in order to believe in God and to adhere to the laws He set down. But if you want to look at it in terms of weakness, just think about humanity and our position in the universe for a while. We are small. We are weak. Life is a miracle. And I wouldn't call the debate about the afterlife or the issue of our creation "petty". These issues have been discussed for centuries, millenia. They are of fundamental importance to humanity.

[Pete]

"Moksha" or "Nirvana" can only be achieved (such is my limited understanding) if one is "enlightened" enough - i.e. has a moment of insight - to break the cycle. This must surely involve a degree of faith?


Not necassarily. But then Hinduism is not a unified religion. One path, Bhakti Yoga, is all about devotion. But 'god' to them is more ore less the inner self of every individual, which is the microcosm to the macrocosm of the universe, or brahman. Brahman is in now way a being except in its manifestations, thus there is a division between the nirguna and saguna catergories (without qualites and with qualities), and it depends on the hindu which is the true path.

In Siddhartha by Herman Hessee (a poet, not a nazi leader), Sid gets enlightened by listening to the river. Siddhartha is a western perspective of hinduism/buddhism.

Faith is not necassarily faith in a god.


Do you mean that not believing in Heaven/Hell makes them somehow not apply to you? Whereas if I believe in God, I must follow His guidelines to assure my place in Heaven? And presumably, if I do not, I am eternally damned and go to Hell? Do these guidelines change depending on the Religion? Is Islamic Heaven distinct from Christian Heaven? Please do explain!

It does not exist to me, therefore I have no worry about it. Since it exists to you if you fail to obtain the level you should along the way, then you are damned. The ideals you accept into you are your own curse, is basically what I was saying.


You must be confident and steadfast in order to believe in God and to adhere to the laws He set down

Did he set them down? Or did Hezekiah write the second book of laws and it was magically 'rediscovered' by Josiah when he wanted to do reforms? You definitely need to be steadfast and confident, but that is required of any ideal. I reject that "He" set down any laws, as they are pretty much a sampling of the laws that existed in the neareast at the time.

I find it ironic that God is described in terms of El and Baal, two gods whose worship was opposed by the creaters of your tradition (El was abosrbed in to Lord God). I know you probaly don't care about these things, but the thing is that your "God" did not create the universe, but is an evolution of ideas and pictures from an earlier point in time. If you keep going back, you keep seeing hwo it was caused. I wouldn't be surprised if religion came into existance to justify the first step from the precommunist society to a hierarchical one.

-Pete

[Rasta Sapian]

peace be with u, brother



I have been lost now I am found, die impirialist pigs die

peace yall :lol:

[The Children of the Revolution]

It is hard to prove a negative. Easier to prove a positive.


This is true, but does not detract from the fact that proof has not proved either "side" right or wrong.



The ideals you accept into you are your own curse, is basically what I was saying.


An interesting idea... But you are effectively just denying something, not offering an alternative. If Heaven and Hell DO exist, you will surely be damned - just as surely as if I fail to follow "the path", I will be damned.



I wouldn't be surprised if religion came into existance to justify the first step from the precommunist society to a hierarchical one.


You mean Religion STARTED class conflict? Unlikely...

I will read up on the subject concerned though, and attempt to broaden my knowledge of Religion. Do you (or does anyone) deny a spiritual level to life by the way? Or just the manifestation of this as a deity? Just wondering...

[redstar2000]

But there is only one cure for eternal damnation - belief in God. I choose this over belief in RedStar and his heretics!

Ah, but I do not ask people to "believe" in my "heresies". I offer argument and evidence in support of what I say. Sometimes people find my arguments "weak" and my evidence "inadequate"...critical challenges that I strive to meet.

But I would regard someone who said they "believed" in me as, at best, guilty of totally misunderstanding my approach and, at worst, utterly pathetic!

What the leading god-suckers demand--faith, trust, obedience--is precisely what I despise and reject!


You are a fool. I really hope this isn't your outlook on life.

I see that you can't even abide by your own "Lord's" words...


but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

Getting a little warmish where you are?


My belief in God does not mean I cannot be a Marxist.

There's a funny story ascribed to Engels...almost certainly not true.

It seems that Engels was meeting with a representative from the Spanish section of the 1st International.

Engels: "You don't believe in god, do you?"

Spanish comrade: "Certainly not!"

Engels: "What about the virgin Mary?"

Spanish comrade: "Well, that's different. Every good socialist believes in the Virgin Mary!"

That's the "Marxism" of the god-suckers.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Pete]

You mean Religion STARTED class conflict?

I dunno, just a suggestion. I said I wouldn't be suprised. I mean shamanic religions operate slightly differently, but the step towards western religions may have just been that. Just like it has been argued taht the adoption of a sky god led to mysgyony.


Do you (or does anyone) deny a spiritual level to life by the way? Or just the manifestation of this as a deity? Just wondering...

Their is only one plain of existance, and we are in it. Humans are not the 'supreme lifeform.' One simply does not exist. It cannot exist. I mean we are not even at the top of the food chain, because it is more like a food circle or food mesh, where everything is consumed by something else. This passage by depaver, above, is sort of what I'm getting at.

We are all interconnected, but not in a spiritual way. The subatomic particles of my body were once a tree, a flower, a river, a mountain. When I die, those particles, or wavicles, or pinches of beingness will join their brethren in the wilds of nature and reconstitute themselves into some new living thing, a worm, a flower, a deer, maybe even a lynx, if I'm lucky.


-Pete

Edit: second quote and reply

[The Feral Underclass]

The Children of the Revolution


I disagree. The mind and body are clearly distinct; the soul is the spiritual extension of the mind. (I realise you will demand proof. I have none, but neither do you...)

Of course I have proof its called materialism....please explain to me how this soul exists?


I believe that Hell is anywhere that isn't heaven. Could you imagine getting drunk and taking drugs for ETERNITY??? Would it not get a little boring after 1,000,000 years?

It's ok hell dosnt exist so it dosnt really matter....out of interest however, what is heaven? surely just standing around being happy with your loved ones would equally be as boring.


Emotions are "immaterial" but remain compatible with a Marxist "material"

Emotions are created through material conditions. If you eat a cooky and like it you are happy if you eat a cooky and dislike it you are unhappy. These two emotions come from something which is material...if you see your father beating your mother you either fill with hate or resentment, two emotions which are created through a material situation. When you read a book you may laugh at it. Every emotion that you feel is attributed to a material situation. You can not develop emotions any other way.


Have you seen proof that He doesn't exist?
'
Yes. The proof is he can not exist.


This is why believers must have FAITH.

Very conviniant isnt it...why do you have this faith? If the basis of your belief is not having proof then how did you start to believe...what is it that made you have unquestionable faith in something you know can not be proven... :blink:


You must be confident and steadfast in order to believe in God and to adhere to the laws He set down.

But you admit that there is a possibility that he does not exist? How do you know for sure that he did lay down these laws. There are dozens of arguments to proof he does not exist yest you believe in it anyway? It just dosnt make any sense...it defys logic!!!

[The Children of the Revolution]

Getting a little warmish where you are?


LOL no, actually it's freezing!
I am assuming that phrase was designed to discourage mindless insults; perhaps it doesn't apply if it's true??? :P



That's the "Marxism" of the god-suckers.


As you said, almost certainly untrue.



What the leading god-suckers demand--faith, trust, obedience--is precisely what I despise and reject!


You despise trust? Ye Gods, really? (I am assuming you don't and that this was a result of poor communication...) I think (and please correct me if i'm wrong) what you despise MOST is organised Religion. Because of it's historical links to oppression and inequality. What I promote is individual belief, based on a spiritual foundation.



Their is only one plain of existance, and we are in it. Humans are not the 'supreme lifeform.' One simply does not exist. It cannot exist.


Interesting. I, of course, disagree. I believe that there IS another plane of existence to which we must "transcend". (Tried - and probably failed - to use a term which would encompass many religions)



... out of interest however, what is heaven?


I couldn't possibly say - it is beyond the imagination of a mere mortal (what a cheesy cliche) such as I to comprehend. However, I will offer a definition of Hell. I would suggest that Hell is anywhere (and everywhere) that ISN'T heaven.



Emotions are created through material conditions.


No. They are distinct. How is my Love for someone based upon material concerns? (Unless of course, I happen to be VERY shallow and marry for money. Which isn't going to happen.) I Love someone partly because of a physical attraction, and partly because our "souls" happen to be "aligned". (VERY cheesy, but I couldn't reword it any better; it IS late after all...)



Very conviniant isnt it...why do you have this faith? If the basis of your belief is not having proof then how did you start to believe...what is it that made you have unquestionable faith in something you know can not be proven...


My belief in God and the afterlife stems from a fundamental belief in the existence of the soul. I believe it is our soul that makes us unique; without it we are merely a collection of chemicals and particles. Not being a physical entity, the soul is not constrained by mortal issues - death being the major one. My soul was given to me by God; I must live my life in a "Godly" way in order to return to Him in the afterlife.

[redstar2000]

You despise trust? Ye Gods, really?

What does every con-man say? "Trust me."

What does every politician say? "Trust me."

What does every smiling liar say? "Trust me."

Whenever someone makes an appeal to trust, what's the rational response? Get a firm grip on your wallet and resolve to make no agreements or promises.

To be sure, some limited kinds of trust are unavoidable in social intercourse.

But writing a "blank check" to anyone for any reason is almost certainly a gross blunder.

If you haven't discovered that yet, you have been remarkably fortunate...and when you do find out, the blow may well be a crushing one indeed.

Trust is really just another word for faith...something that's always a bad idea.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[(*]

overwhelming joy and peace in my life

Congrats. If you are feeling great, that's awesome.


I don't know about this "fight for christianity" thing though. Religion should be personal. No need to try and save people.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Whenever someone makes an appeal to trust, what's the rational response? Get a firm grip on your wallet and resolve to make no agreements or promises.


Ouch! I don't know where you grew up but it has obviously had a real impact on you... I trust (most) people implicitly. Your point about politicians is certainly valid; as is your view on con-men. But I don't even listen to politicians any more, and there are few con men about...

I would trust almost anyone.

And faith is a superb idea.

[redstar2000]

I would trust almost anyone.

And faith is a superb idea.

Very well, start with these...

http://goforthlabs.com/news/scams.htm

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an010810-23.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/...general527.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general527.html)

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/html/5103-...gious_Scam.html (http://www.religionnewsblog.com/html/5103-Businessman_Charged_in_Religious_Scam.html)

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an011128-17.html

I really like the one about selling "tickets to Heaven" for $14.95 plus tax. :lol:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Purple]

OK

[The Children of the Revolution]

A California company is selling tickets to heaven for $15. Plus $4.95
shipping and handling. Ticket to Heaven Incorporated will send you a
ticket with your name on it, along with a "certificate of authenticity"
and a wallet-sized testimonial card. No faith commitment is required.
As far as the company is concerned, purchasers are pledging to be true
to their own faith, whatever it may be. The company does not offer a
money back guarantee.


Ha ha ha ha haa!! :D :D :D Absolutely hysterical!!

If you're stupid enough to buy one of these "tickets", you deserve to be conned! Hahaha, thanks, that brightened up my day! :)

OK, so you think faith is a bad idea... You have some amusing Hyperlinks to "prove" this... But consider the billions of people worldwide - yes, billions - that derive great comfort from their Religion. Whatever it might be. I was reading about a Bhuddist society yesterday that is actively resisting the onsluaght of Capitalism! Literally MILLIONS of people have nothing to eat, and nowhere to live - due, in no small part, to the evils of capitalism - but remain devoted and practice their Religion in a dilapidated church or mosque every day.

And what about the humanitarian aid provided by Religious organisations? Is this bad?

Christian Aid (http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/)

Come on, be reasonable... Religion, like anything else in a capitalist system, has been exploited by greedy, money-hungry evildoers. This does not mean that "faith" in general is flawed...

[The Feral Underclass]

The Children of the Revolution


How is my Love for someone based upon material concerns?

You answered the question in the question. "How is my love for someone" you can not fall in love, which is an emotion, with someone without first seeing them. This person exists as a material object which your emotion came from.


My belief in God and the afterlife stems from a fundamental belief in the existence of the soul.

How does this heaven exist? how does the soul exist?

I am interested to know why you didnt answer my comments on materialism? You also didnt answer my comments about heaven and hell?

You said that taking drugs etc for a million years would be boring. I replied..

The Anarchist Tension

what is heaven? surely just standing around being happy with your loved ones would equally be as boring.

Please answer this?

[The Children of the Revolution]

You answered the question in the question. "How is my love for someone" you can not fall in love, which is an emotion, with someone without first seeing them. This person exists as a material object which your emotion came from.


This isn't what you were initially saying. You suggested that the Marxist material interpretation of History ABSOLUTELY EXCLUDED ALL IMMATERIAL CONCERNS - such as God. However, the Marxist interpretation of History does not (or at least I read it this way) treat Human Love as "material". And, to introduce another example, consider FEAR. It is not founded on a "material" basis. If someone is afraid of death - how does this relate to "material"?

I described why I thought the soul existed.

My belief in God and the afterlife stems from a fundamental belief in the existence of the soul. I believe it is our soul that makes us unique; without it we are merely a collection of chemicals and particles. Not being a physical entity, the soul is not constrained by mortal issues - death being the major one. My soul was given to me by God; I must live my life in a "Godly" way in order to return to Him in the afterlife.

I shall elaborate. A human being is a physical entity - we have fingers, and can experience sensations of "touch". Plus, we have a mind. This controls the physical entity - the body - and allows us to interact on a different "plane". Thus, we have an imagination, and can dream. And suchlike. I believe the soul is the next level up - it helps us to discern right from wrong, decide moral issues and above all, helps us to experience emotions. Humans exist on these three levels; physical, spiritual, and "in between". This is my take on the soul.

The soul, in my opinion, was given us by a God. Therefore, I follow what I consider to be this God in the hope that my devotion will be rewarded in the afterlife.

I also gave an interpretation of Hell, and suggested that Heaven was beyond the imaginings of Mortal, PHYSICAL entities. Which is why it is my soul that will (hopefully) go to heaven, not my body. My definition of Hell is below, but I shall repeat it for you. I'm so kind. "I will offer a definition of Hell. I would suggest that Hell is anywhere (and everywhere) that ISN'T heaven."

Does this satisfy you?

[The Feral Underclass]

Children of the Revolution

When I speak of material things I mean things that exist, which you can see and can explain using real things, such as a book is made from paper, paper is made from wood etc etc.


You suggested that the Marxist material interpretation of History ABSOLUTELY EXCLUDED ALL IMMATERIAL CONCERNS - such as God

The reason I said this was because god can not be proven. In a material sense, material being everything we know and understand to exist and function, god simply can not exist.


However, the Marxist interpretation of History does not (or at least I read it this way) treat Human Love as "material".

Of course we put a higher meaning on love, and rightly so. It is a beautiful emotion that creates much happiness and peace between two people and indeed large groups of people. But, in reality these feelings are created by chemical reactions in the brain. This is a material consequence of seeing, meeting or understanding something which is material.


It is not founded on a "material" basis. If someone is afraid of death - how does this relate to "material"?

Death is an understood concept. It is material in our brains because we know and accept what it is because it is fact. The emotion fear is based on such an understanding. Although you can not touch or see death you know it exists. You know it is real and that it is a fact which you have no power to escape.

As a materialist I reject your definition of a soul as impossible for reasons which I think are obvious. I do not think much more can be said on the matter.

As for for heaven, it is quite easy to say that it is something we can not understand. It is an easy option to rationalize in this way. It means you are exonerated from having to answer it in any more detail and leaves the question concluded but unproven. It is an answer I get alot and is extremly annoying.

[Anastacia]

Yes, Old Testament is full of violence. But bible isn't all true. Jews wrote it. So, if they see a thing as God's punishment they write it down. If they succeed in a battle, they write down that God were on their side. See what I mean?

I believe that God wants to save everyone because he loves us. I don't need any organized church. If organized church sounds like a tool to rule masses and you get the wrong picture about christianity but still you want to do as God will (what Jesus preached about etc.). But, of course, if you don't believe in God and heaven and don't want to go there...

I don't support any organised christian religion. I want to make world a good place to live to everyone. And with these thoughts I am really leftist. I see that as the main point of christianity. In addition to this, I believe that even though I want to be as unselfish as possible, I am very selfish. I have sinned. That's why I believe in Jesus.


what is heaven? surely just standing around being happy with your loved ones would equally be as boring.

I believe that God wants equal happiness to everyone. So it would be like a society with no greed or exploitation. But much better.

These are just my beliefs and they can't be proved wrong or right.

[redstar2000]

But consider the billions of people worldwide - yes, billions - that derive great comfort from their Religion. Whatever it might be.

Well, it's always said that people "derive great comfort" from their religion. Who knows if it's true or not?

When you stuff a kid's head full of crap and then s/he grows up believing that it's "true", is that "comforting"?

Do you feel "comforted" by the belief that you are destined for "eternal bliss" while most of humanity is doomed to "eternal torment"?

Whenever Hindus and Muslims slaughter one another, is there a lot of "comforting" going on?

Back in the 17th century and earlier, was it "comforting" to watch a witch or a heretic being burned alive?


Literally MILLIONS of people have nothing to eat, and nowhere to live - due, in no small part, to the evils of capitalism - but remain devoted and practice their Religion in a dilapidated church or mosque every day.

And a fat lot of good it does them, right? Why do they not rise in rage against a world order that has treated them so badly?

One reason is that "God" told them to obey their masters. And they believe that.

Don't you?


And what about the humanitarian aid provided by Religious organisations? Is this bad?

No, it's not "bad", it's trivial. All forms of charity, by their very nature, do nothing to change a system which creates an enormous need for charities...a need that is never, in practice, fulfilled.


Come on, be reasonable... Religion, like anything else in a capitalist system, has been exploited by greedy, money-hungry evildoers. This does not mean that "faith" in general is flawed...

I think matters are a little more serious than that..."evildoers" appear to have been running the religion racket as far back as written history extends. This or that early figure in the history of some religions may or may not have been "a good person"...the accounts of their lives are shrouded in mythology. But as soon as clear historical data is available for inspection, the "evildoers" seem to be the dominant influence...and quite often the only influence.

That's a "hell" of a track record!

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[The Children of the Revolution]

The Anarchist Tension



Of course we put a higher meaning on love, and rightly so. It is a beautiful emotion that creates much happiness and peace between two people and indeed large groups of people. But, in reality these feelings are created by chemical reactions in the brain.


Nooooooo! Evil, mad scientist! You claim Love is beautiful (which it is) and then describe it as a series of chemical reactions? Nooooooo! The attack of the "Killer-Rationalists"! :P



Death is an understood concept. It is material in our brains because we know and accept what it is because it is fact.


This is stretching your initial definition a bit far... If death was simply a fact, and just "happened", the rational decision would be not to fear it at all. You can't avoid it, can you? So why worry? But people do worry. Because of a spiritual fear - where is my soul going to end up?



As for for heaven, it is quite easy to say that it is something we can not understand. It is an easy option to rationalize in this way. It means you are exonerated from having to answer it in any more detail and leaves the question concluded but unproven. It is an answer I get alot and is extremly annoying.


This is true. And you may get this answer a lot. But you'll keep getting it, at least from me. Heaven transcends the mortal World. Doing ANYTHING "mortal", or "physical" for eternity would, as you suggested earlier, get a little tedious after 1,000,000 years... Heaven is spiritual; get used to the idea! :P

RedStar2000



Whenever Hindus and Muslims slaughter one another, is there a lot of "comforting" going on?

Back in the 17th century and earlier, was it "comforting" to watch a witch or a heretic being burned alive?


These acts should be presented in a TV program; "When Organised Religion Goes Wrong!" As I keep mentioning, my Religious belief is individual. I am not affiliated with ANY church! However, in missionaries abroad, organised Religion can provide a joy lacking from everyday life.



No, it's not "bad", it's trivial. All forms of charity, by their very nature, do nothing to change a system which creates an enormous need for charities...a need that is never, in practice, fulfilled.


They may not change the system... But they stop millions from going hungry, or starving to death - this much can be said for them.



But as soon as clear historical data is available for inspection, the "evildoers" seem to be the dominant influence...and quite often the only influence.


I assume you mean the only recorded influence? Well, obviously. The nature of ancient History was very different to that of today. "Historians" were concerned with Kings and Queens, 'Great Men', Military Conquests... These kinds of things. No-one would record the kind acts of a monastery, for example - they go without saying.

I should also mention the many "Saints" in recorded History - St. Francis of Assisi was an "evildoer"? Surely not...



That's a "hell" of a track record!


You deserve to go to hell for inappropriate use of puns!

[Sorry for long post]

[The Feral Underclass]

Children of the Revolution


Nooooooo! Evil, mad scientist! You claim Love is beautiful (which it is) and then describe it as a series of chemical reactions? Nooooooo! The attack of the "Killer-Rationalists"!

Damn rationalism and damn logic too!!! although not as romantic it is true. However, it is not something which I think about. I do not look at my partner and think wow, those chemical reactions are kicking in again...no one does, unless your a bit strange.


This is stretching your initial definition a bit far

I dont agree. The argument was about whether emotions were created by material things. Death is a material thing which creates fear.


If death was simply a fact, and just "happened", the rational decision would be not to fear it at all.

This isnt true. We always fear things we have no control over. This is exactly why religion became so popular. It gives us that little bit of control over something we dont want to happen but will anyway.


Heaven transcends the mortal World. Doing ANYTHING "mortal", or "physical" for eternity would, as you suggested earlier

Actually it was you who sujested it...


Heaven is spiritual; get used to the idea!

Well, heaven dosnt exist. But lets say it did hypothetically, what would this spirituality entail. What things could it possible be. it has to be a concept which human beings can understand. The only way we wouldnt understand it, is if it was something we hadnt discovered and learnt about...it dosnt really leave many options...

Furthermore you would have to exist somewhere. Somehow and surly it would get boring where ever it was were you existed, doing what ever unexplained thing it is you will be doing...surely that would get boring too...

[Pete]

This is exactly why religion became so popular. It gives us that little bit of control over something we dont want to happen but will anyway.

I must completely disagree with this statement. Religion did not come about because of death and trying to give control over the afterlife, that is bullshit.

Shamanic cultures, those religoins that are 'not for export' and are probaly the closest to primitive religion that we can see today, do not have a strong view of the afterlife. THeir ceremonies and rituals centre around this world. Sure the ancestors play a role in the world, to them at least, but that is different than making a death a good place.

The Greeks saw death as a hell, and the Jews did too. Yahweh alonists (those who wrot emost of the talmach under the deutronomic perspective) saw death in Sheol as being the logical consequence of life, and that once you where dead that was it. Greeks saw the same. The Isle of the Blest, Heaven, and the Elusinian fields came later as the Zorastors mingled with these peoples. Religion was used to show why people should fear death, it made the emotion understandable (see the Epic of Gilgamesh after Enkindu dies, Gilgamesh gets terrified and tries to find immortality but cannot and accepts that he is mortal and revels in his feats that he commited while alive, like the walls of Uruk).

Vedic culture also centred around this world. One would do sacrafices and the rites to the various gods to bring about more cows, more sons, more wealth, longer life, ect. It had nothing to do with the afterlife. Samsara came around as a concept around the time of the Upanisads, and in that world view even if you went to heaven or hell you had to be reborn into the world again, with Moksha being the only escape from the horrors of redeath (rebirth is a westernization of the idea). Death is a negative in these religions as well (Hindu religions for those who do not know).

The Elusyinian mysteries came later after the Odyessy where Achellies says that hed rather be the lowest of the low on earth than the highest on Earth. Hellenistic Judaism came after the Yahweh alonists, which came after the long time of polytheistic judaism that ended effectively after the destruction of the Northern Kingdom (Yahweh alonists listened too a lot more when they had concrete 'proof' of what was going on).

Obviously my point is that religion did not come about to make death easier to handle. It made people terrified about death. Death was bad. Religion was to make life easier, in the case of Judaism to help people work together for national liberation, the Vedic culture was about gains in this world, Shamanic religions are about keeping the community alive and keeping game plentiful and harvests good. Nothing about death. Death was bad in those religions. Death was to be feared. So you worked to get the best you could in this life.

Alrihgt, that may be a bit overboard, but it shows the nature of religion, in my opinion, to be counterproductive to the goals of leftism.

-Pete

(Christianity came later and thus is no measure of why religion came into existance)

[The Feral Underclass]

I should have said one of the reasons it became so popular.

God were used to explain things such as the moon and son and were also used for things such as growing crops and fighting in wars.

[The Children of the Revolution]

This isnt true. We always fear things we have no control over.


Marx suggested a Proletarian Revolution was inevitable.
Thus, we have no control over it.
Therefore, we fear the coming of the Revolution?

I shall have nightmares for months; damned Revolution...



Actually it was you who sujested it...


You suggested something along the lines of "surely just standing around being happy with your loved ones would be equally as boring?" I believe...



Somehow and surly it would get boring where ever it was were you existed, doing what ever unexplained thing it is you will be doing...surely that would get boring too...


We don't know! I don't know, you don't know - this is the difference between the PHYSICAL world in which we live, and the SPIRITUAL afterlife! In a spiritual world, one is not confined by mere physics... You could do things with ease that no-one on Earth has ever contemplated... Such is the miracle of heaven!

Good post "CrazyPete", you really know your stuff! But I don't view Christianity specifically to be against the goals of leftism... In fact, I think many of the virtues aspired to by "Good Christians" compliment the ideals of Socialism (or leftism) nicely...

[Pete]

Leftism is based in this world. There is only this world. That is key that we must do something in THIS WORLD.

Christianity is all about getting to heaven, to ANOTHER WORLD. That is the problem. It is about doing good things to get to ANOTHER WORLD. That is where the contradiction is.

Cap's for emphasis not for screaming or any other purpose.

-Pete

[The Children of the Revolution]

Leftism is based in this world. There is only this world. That is key that we must do something in THIS WORLD.

Christianity is all about getting to heaven, to ANOTHER WORLD. That is the problem. It is about doing good things to get to ANOTHER WORLD. That is where the contradiction is.


But in order to reach Heaven, I must live my life ON EARTH in a suitable way... I must give to the poor, love my neighbour, not sin; (or at least try to avoid it, all humans sin :( ) generally, be a nice chap. I think "being a nice chap" is a worthy addition to my Revolutionary credentials!

[Regicidal Insomniac]

You mean Religion STARTED class conflict?

To provide some kind of explanation for natural events, mankind created the gods: the god of rain, of fire, of Earth, or Sun, the goddess of fertility, the god of hunting, etc. Out of this came the magicians and sorcerers who exploited the "idea or divinity" for their own benefit. By using all kinds of cheap tricks they passed themselves off as special "delegates" of the gods with fantastic powers... This is the way gradually an "upper" class was formed- or a ruling class- and a lower- or ruled- class...

So, to answer your question, the answer is yes. For, as you can see, it was from religion that hierarchal classes were firmly established.

[Pete]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 9 2003, 08:48 PM


Leftism is based in this world. There is only this world. That is key that we must do something in THIS WORLD.

Christianity is all about getting to heaven, to ANOTHER WORLD. That is the problem. It is about doing good things to get to ANOTHER WORLD. That is where the contradiction is.


But in order to reach Heaven, I must live my life ON EARTH in a suitable way... I must give to the poor, love my neighbour, not sin; (or at least try to avoid it, all humans sin :( ) generally, be a nice chap. I think "being a nice chap" is a worthy addition to my Revolutionary credentials!
Well I must say I just read "One Day of Life" by Manlio Arguel... that is 217 pages of amazing literature about El Slavador in the 1970's... first person stream of consiousness, but beautifull done. I highly suggest it.

Okay, my point is this: the priests began the organization and provided the church for the farmers to meet. That is a benifit of religion, albet one that is not in the nature of religion, as the other priests did not support this.

To your point, charity is not revolutionary. Doing so is not helping. Religion, in the end, will have to be abandoned because you may have to do some 'sinfull' things. But read that book. Religion can be exploited by leftists, but it is abandoned quickly in all but name. Remember Jose.

-Pete

[Anastacia]

Leftism is based in this world. There is only this world. That is key that we must do something in THIS WORLD.

Christianity is all about getting to heaven, to ANOTHER WORLD. That is the problem. It is about doing good things to get to ANOTHER WORLD. That is where the contradiction is.

I believe in both. I believe that in this world it's my [b]duty[/] to try to help people. I really want to do something, my everything in this world. But I also believe that this world isn't all. I believe that there's something after this life. I really don't know what kind of place heaven or hell is. I don't do things to get to another world. I want to live right here in this world now as far as I live here. Everything isn't well, so change has to be made. I believe that God wants that too. If he don't want and he just wants to obey masters and stop whinig and that people give praises him and wait for eternal life then fine! Then I'm not going to heaven but I still wouldn't regret anything. I see your point but I don't see any contradiction. Depends on what do you mean by christianity. Do you mean Jesus's speeches and his ideology or organised religion?

[Pete]

By Christianity I mean the religion that we are socialized into in North America. I mean the belief that one must get to heaven after dying. Christianity, regardless of how you put it, is all about getting to heaven. That is the thing. Salvation is going to heaven. That is at the very core. Since it wasn't accepted by the Jews it adopted a doctrine to allow the Gentiles who were joining see a reason in being Christian. They probaly didn't care about the survial of the Jewish nation, so they got heaven. Christianity = wanting to get to heaven. Most of the time it is based around the 'orginal sin' which I reject, and when I read the genesis I laughed because God was such a prick, making knowledge bad. Shesh!

-Pete

[The Children of the Revolution]

So, to answer your question, the answer is yes. For, as you can see, it was from religion that hierarchal classes were firmly established.


I disagree - it was "ownership" of land that created the first "ruling class"; these classes extended their influence through War and Conquest.



To your point, charity is not revolutionary. Doing so is not helping. Religion, in the end, will have to be abandoned because you may have to do some 'sinfull' things.


Can't someone else do the nasty killing and death thing? I'm pretty sure Lenin never killed a Counter-Revolutionary scumbag at the front... (Maybe these were his orders though!) Charity may not be Marxist, but it is certainly "leftist" - redistribution of wealth, the "common good" etc. And I would certainly not portray this "Godly" life as Counter-Revolutionary; it is, therefore, of little consequence...



Christianity = wanting to get to heaven.


But if I happen to participate in a Revolution, I can still get to heaven???



God was such a prick, making knowledge bad.


Ach! Blasphemy! Heretic, Sinner, Evildoer! In all seriousness though, what has knowledge actually done for us? Given us new ways to exploit and kill each other? Fantastic...

[The Feral Underclass]

Children of the Revolution


Marx suggested a Proletarian Revolution was inevitable.
Thus, we have no control over it.
Therefore, we fear the coming of the Revolution?

This dosnt invalidate my argument. Fear is an emotion. Death is a material reality. Therefore I have proven that emotions exist because of material realities...thus invalidaing the argument that "Emotions are "immaterial"..." and furthermore proving how marxism and god are not compatable.


You suggested something along the lines of "surely just standing around being happy with your loved ones would be equally as boring?" I believe...

that was to counter act your initial comment; "Could you imagine getting drunk and taking drugs for ETERNITY??? Would it not get a little boring after 1,000,000 years?"


We don't know! I don't know, you don't know - this is the difference between the PHYSICAL world in which we live, and the SPIRITUAL afterlife! In a spiritual world, one is not confined by mere physics... You could do things with ease that no-one on Earth has ever contemplated... Such is the miracle of heaven!

<_<


In fact, I think many of the virtues aspired to by "Good Christians" compliment the ideals of Socialism (or leftism) nicely...

but not materialism. And as the whole basis of marxism is based on materialism, and you believe in the existance of immaterial things you can not claim to be a marxist.

You can not pick and choose your level of materialism when ever it suits your personal penchants.

[ratm545]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2003, 11:46 PM



[QUOTE]
Let me suggest Judges for example. Near the beginning an Israelite man tells his overlord that he has a &#39;message from the lord&#39; for him. You know what that was? A sword in the belly.

Judges 3, brilliant chapter, Eglon king of Moab was a bad bad man, suppressing the Isrealites for 18 years, if this were modern day you would celebrate if an oppressor was killed.
Something to clarify about Christianity, Everything God does is right, for He is rightous. Therefore, we modeal ourselves after Him, trying to be Christlike. The KJV translated incorrectly, it is not &#39;Thou shall not kill&#39;, rather &#39;Thou shall not murder&#39;. Big difference.

And to everybody pointing out the bloody past of Christianity, Look at your own cause. Marxism is plagued by bloody past. Name me one overtaking that was done by peaceful means or anything even related to not killing tons of people. Several of the communist governments continued to terrorize it&#39;s very own citizens. Does this make communism any less credible because people haven&#39;t carried it out correctly? NO. Same for any other cause.

Mashka, I don&#39;t claim a denomination, the church body I worship,fellowship, and learn with is a Church of Christ, I know you know a good bit about religions, so I won&#39;t explain further to you. To others, we don&#39;t have any central leadership, we govern ourselves, direct democracy holds out in most scenario&#39;s, however representative democracy does in some.

Whatever I avoided, I apologize, contact me if you actually want an answer.

[The Children of the Revolution]

"We always fear things we have no control over"
---------
"Marx suggested a Proletarian Revolution was inevitable.
Thus, we have no control over it.
Therefore, we fear the coming of the Revolution?

I shall have nightmares for months; damned Revolution..."
---------
"This dosnt invalidate my argument."


Maybe not, but you sound like a prat&#33; :P



And as the whole basis of marxism is based on materialism, and you believe in the existance of immaterial things you can not claim to be a marxist.


No. Would you exclude a Christian Miner from the Revolution? Would you prevent an Islamic Steelworker from taking to the streets? It would be a rather lonely affair, comrade...

There are many "immaterial", "non-physical" things which everyone believes in - or acknowledges. I believe in God. You may not, but you surely follow laws? Moral boundaries? How are these physical? Can you see them? Concepts and theories, ideas... All these things exist in a non-physical sense; they are immaterial. What about the language you speak - yes, it&#39;s written down in dictionaries and such like - but it wasn&#39;t three thousand years ago; does it therefore exist at all?

I can believe AND be a Marxist.

<so nyahh>

[The Feral Underclass]

I dont see how winning an argument in a, erm...debating forum, qulifies being called a prat.

of course people who have these faiths can be involved in a revolution, however, I do not think once people have an understanding god would have any relevance anymore.

These moral boundries are dictated to me by material consequences. I would not kill someone, because they would be dead...and it would be messy, all material things. As for language, words exist. They are real. Therefore they are material. They can be proven, because the exist.

However concepts and theories are based on subjective views. except for marxism, which is an analysis of society based on material things, ie things that exist and are real.

Sorry, but if you accept that things can exist wihtout their being material and real things to prove them, you can not be a materialist. and as marxism is based fundamentally on the idea of materialism, you can not be a marxist, in the true sense of the word at least.

[The Children of the Revolution]

I dont see how winning an argument in a, erm...debating forum, qulifies being called a prat.


Hey I was only kidding&#33; I just thought it was mildly amusing...



As for language, words exist. They are real. Therefore they are material. They can be proven, because the exist.

However concepts and theories are based on subjective views. except for marxism, which is an analysis of society based on material things, ie things that exist and are real.


Where do words exist? How are they material? Concepts and theories, ideas... no matter what they concern, they are not material&#33; They "exist" nowhere&#33;



Sorry, but if you accept that things can exist wihtout their being material and real things to prove them, you can not be a materialist. and as marxism is based fundamentally on the idea of materialism, you can not be a marxist, in the true sense of the word at least.


I guess we&#39;ll have to agree to disagree. I think that although Marxism interprets History in a materialist way, "immaterial" concerns are not entirely excluded. Plus I doubt anyone alive is a TRUE Marxist, following his words to the letter. Theories evolve.

[redstar2000]

Tcotr, you skipped passed my best question...

Do you feel "comforted" by the prospect of "eternal bliss" while most of humanity is "damned" to eternal torment?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Pete]

Judges 3, brilliant chapter, Eglon king of Moab was a bad bad man, suppressing the Isrealites for 18 years, if this were modern day you would celebrate if an oppressor was killed.


God cursed the Isrealites to this torture, now that is because they worshiped false idols or something along those lines, but one must remember the bible is written from the viewpoint that the reforms of King Josiah where good and any betrayal from them are bad. But the point is that I was arguing that &#39;the Lord&#39; has caused people to kill eachother, so the rest of your post is taking mine out of context a little.


The KJV translated incorrectly, it is not &#39;Thou shall not kill&#39;, rather &#39;Thou shall not murder&#39;. Big difference.

That is how my version translates it. I have the Oxford Study Bible, Revised English Edition with Apocrypha.

[The Feral Underclass]

Children of the revolution


Where do words exist? How are they material? Concepts and theories, ideas... no matter what they concern, they are not material&#33; They "exist" nowhere&#33;

if words didnt exist how could you talk to anyone, or even write this message? Words are not a concept, they are a reality. When you say a word I can tell you it is a word by the fact that you said it, and it exists.


I guess we&#39;ll have to agree to disagree. I think that although Marxism interprets History in a materialist way, "immaterial" concerns are not entirely excluded. Plus I doubt anyone alive is a TRUE Marxist, following his words to the letter. Theories evolve.

Look..you are not a marxist. I am sorry if that isnt nice for you, but you arent. You can not be a nazi if you do not believe in the superiority of the aryan race, just as you can not be a marxist if you do not believe in materialism.

Theories do evolve, and we arent talking about the dictatorship of the proletariat or some other changable theory, we are talking about the fundamental basis of maxism. Its essence, its being...materialism is not one of those theories you can change...if you are not a materialist, you are not a marxist. Period&#33;

[The Children of the Revolution]

Tcotr, you skipped passed my best question...

Do you feel "comforted" by the prospect of "eternal bliss" while most of humanity is "damned" to eternal torment?


I thought this was a fairly silly question actually. No, this does not give me comfort, which is why (most) Christians will try and convert others in large numbers - in order to save them from their fate. In order to save their soul, if you want a cheesy cliche. And there are no guarantees that I will make it to heaven myself; i&#39;m not that arrogant&#33; I didn&#39;t mean to skip the question though RedStar.



... if words didnt exist how could you talk to anyone, or even write this message?


I think you may have missed the point comrade... Words exist, just not in a material sense. Just like God. He exists, but in an "immaterial" way. And just as you use words (or interpret theories, or realise moral boundaries, or act on ideas - all "immaterial") and consider yourself a Marxist, so can I believe in God and remain a Marxist.



... if you are not a materialist, you are not a marxist.


Like I said, a lonely Revolution comrade...

[The Feral Underclass]

Children of the Revolution

No...you are missing the point...words do not exist like a concept ofgod. God can not be proven...words can...look at them...look how real they are...therefore they are material...they exist, they are here, it is not about faith, or subjective opinion. Words are not theories, they are real, living, existing things that we use every day...

And It has nothing to do with people being involved in the revolution. I have no quirms with you being involved in any revolutionary movement...however, you are not a marxist.

[Pete]

I think you may have missed the point comrade... Words exist, just not in a material sense. Just like God.

Words can be sensed using sensory data, like sight, which is how you are reading these words here, and hearing, as you would be hearing them inside your head, or outloud if that is how you read.

God, on the other hand, is unprovable until the Annukai and Giggi come back down and destroy the world in 10 years, if that is what you believe. (I for one don&#39;t.) But even that view of God is a material one that a crazy, yet intelligent, man tried to prove once back in the 70&#39;s.

-Pete

[redstar2000]

The "power" of prayer...


An experiment earlier this year into whether prayer does have concrete results may have disappointed believers.

The study, run by the Duke University Medical Centre in North Carolina involved prayers being said for half of a group of 750 hospital patients. Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist volunteers prayed for one half of the group, but not for the other. Researchers found no difference in the recovery rates of the two groups.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/magazi...ine/3306185.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/magazine/3306185.stm)

Here we are in the opening years of a new century...and resources are still be used to investigate palpable nonsense.

We still have a long way to go.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[redstar2000]

No, this does not give me comfort, which is why (most) Christians will try and convert others in large numbers - in order to save them from their fate. In order to save their soul, if you want a cheesy cliché. And there are no guarantees that I will make it to heaven myself; I&#39;m not that arrogant&#33;

No, you missed the point of my question; it&#39;s not a matter of "Christian duty" to "save souls".

The logic of Christian theology is that the overwhelming majority of human "souls" are damned to eternal torment, no matter what Christians do or don&#39;t do.

All "souls" born before Christ lived: damned&#33;

All "souls" born in countries where the Christian gospel is unavailable or banned: damned&#33;

All "souls" who "take comfort" in other religions: damned&#33;

All unbaptized infants: damned&#33;

And even among that tiny minority of human "souls" who have been/are nominal Christians, the "unrepentant sinners" among them: damned&#33;

So...fifty or sixty years from now--assuming you haven&#39;t come to your senses and become an atheist--you will arrive at the Heavenly Reception Center, pick up your robe, halo, and harp, and join perhaps 100 or 200 or 300 million "saved".

And if you go out on the fabulous redwood deck, you can look down from the railing at about 12 billion damned "souls" screaming in agony.

Wonder what it "sounds" like...

I recall reading about a "holy book" written by some "saint" in the 4th or 5th century in which it was suggested that a favorite pastime in "Heaven" was having a picnic on the "edge"...looking down at the torments of the damned. :o

Of course, it&#39;s always possible that "God" in "His infinite mercy" will delete from your memory all knowledge of what happened to the "divine lottery losers".

But anyone who can look at Christian theology in plain language and grasp its implications ought to be disgusted.

If it actually turned out to be "true", a righteous person would choose "Hell"...as a matter of principle&#33;

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Pete]

Just a tack on to RS2000&#39;s post.

Some sects of Christianity (mostly the protestant types) believe that God does not care what you do. Hell, Calvinists believe that you are preordained to go to heaven or hell when you are born and there is nothing you can do against that. Good works won&#39;t save you... only the luck of the draw.


-Pete

[The Children of the Revolution]

And if you go out on the fabulous redwood deck, you can look down from the railing at about 12 billion damned "souls" screaming in agony.


Deck? Wow, is heaven a ship? Cool, I bag the &#39;Crows Nest&#39;&#33;



pick up your robe, halo, and harp,


Nah; casual wear and a guitar for me. The halo can stay.



The logic of Christian theology is that the overwhelming majority of human "souls" are damned to eternal torment, no matter what Christians do or don&#39;t do.


In all seriousness, I should perhaps explain MY view of Religion more clearly. I call myself a Christian because I was born in the West; I have been raised in a Christian society. However, my view of Religion is not so narrow. I am not a Christian because I read (and follow explicitly) the Bible. I believe in "God" because of my spiritual beliefs - the existence of the soul and the afterlife, and of indisputable moral guidelines which should be followed by all. I think Jesus was the personification of these ideals.

But I do not discount other Religions. I do not point and laugh at Muslims; they are not automatically damned.

Hence my oposition to organised Religion - it tends to promotes itself as the only solution, the only "ticket to heaven". The "Saints book" being a prime example.



Some sects of Christianity (mostly the protestant types) believe that God does not care what you do.


This is, in my view, ludicrous. There are many equally stupid sects though; promoting just about anything...

[redstar2000]

I believe in "God" because of my spiritual beliefs - the existence of the soul and the afterlife, and of indisputable moral guidelines which should be followed by all. I think Jesus was the personification of these ideals.

Once more into the labyrinth, eh?

What are these "indisputable moral guidelines" and how exactly do we know that "Jesus" was their "personification"?

"Jesus" himself never wrote a line, as far as is known, and may have been illiterate. What we have are "accounts" of what he "said" and "did" written down anywhere from 40 to 80 years after his death (if he existed at all) by people who did not know him (none of the gospels are considered the work of the disciples to whom they are attributed). Even the authentic letters of Paulos of Tarsus--which say very little about the "life" of "Jesus"--were written 15 to 20 years after his "death"...and Paulos admits having never heard "Jesus" speak in his lifetime.

The current scholarly consensus, as I understand it, is that "Jesus" was "a country preacher"...a "reforming rabbi" in the Jewish tradition. Paulos certainly considered himself a Jew and an exceptionally righteous one at that.

He was certainly well acquainted with people who had known "Jesus" (he didn&#39;t much like them), but if anyone was most likely to transmit the views of Jesus from contemporary sources, Paulos is the guy. And if the "Jerusalem Church" was closest to "Jesus" of all, which seems to be the case, then a more vigorous version of traditional Jewish morality was the message of "Jesus".

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Confirmed sinner that I am, I must dispute those "indisputable moral guidelines"...whether of the Jerusalem Church variety or the variety propounded by Paulos. Both versions fall far short of contemporary standards of decent, civilized behavior. "Eternal torment", for example, makes the "God of Jesus" a cosmic monster...in comparison with which the most odious human tyrants pale into insignificance.

One could mention other things--slavery, obedience to authority, oppression of women and gays, etc.

It&#39;s interesting that "Jesus", for all his "miracles", could not find it within himself to free a single slave, not even one...you figure he must have run into them often enough.

Of course, modern Christians "re-interpret" the message of "Jesus" to fit their own priorities and make it all sound more palatable. You probably do the same thing. Fashions in "Jesus" come and go...and come again.

One of the early "church fathers" (the guy who castrated himself to rid himself of evil thoughts) said that "God&#39;s" mercy was "so great" that it would turn out that torment was not eternal after all, and even the "Devil" himself would someday be readmitted into "Heaven".

That was not a popular view back in the 3rd or 4th century...but modern Christians--who wish to appear civilized--probably like it a lot.

Fundamentalist Christians call it "cafeteria Christianity"...you just choose the parts you like and pretend the rest does not really "exist".

"What would &#39;Jesus&#39; do", indeed.

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[Rasta Sapian]

ratm545, be thankfull that you have a relationship with god, be thankfull that you are alive&#33; and forgive the comments of the unenlightened individuals&#33; keep the faith, praying for the spiritual revolution&#33; and the universalist subconcious to empower the human race&#33; peace bro

[Anastacia]

All "souls" born before Christ lived: damned&#33;

All "souls" born in countries where the Christian gospel is unavailable or banned: damned&#33;

All "souls" who "take comfort" in other religions: damned&#33;

All unbaptized infants: damned&#33;

I believe that people will be saved by their works. Like if you are not selfish and greed etc. and you can think about other people then you do very much like Jesus said. I don&#39;t believe that baptism saves. If you are now talking against some "christian" tendencies then ok, I don&#39;t agree with most of them. If you are talking against what Jesus said then we have a debate. Don&#39;t add any naive "pick up your robe, halo, and harp" stuff. Objective debate, please. No Dante&#39;s nine hells or playing harp in a golden town or up the clouds or anything.

[The Feral Underclass]

ratm545, be thankfull that you have a relationship with god, be thankfull that you are alive&#33; and forgive the comments of the unenlightened individuals&#33; keep the faith, praying for the spiritual revolution&#33; and the universalist subconcious to empower the human race&#33; peace bro

I WOULD RATHER BECOME AN AUTHOTARIAN THAN ALLOW YOUR OPPRESSIVE BULLSHIT INFEST THIS POOR PLANET...NO GODS&#33; NO MASTERS&#33;

[redstar2000]

What&#39;s that stupid sign say that the believers all hold up at televised sports events? John 3:16?

He that believeth in Me shall not die but have everlasting life.

Nothing about "works" there; belief in "Jesus" validates your "ticket", period.

The general rule in nearly all religions is: do it our way or burn&#33;

And since no religion has ever brainwashed more than a small proportion of the total number of humans that have ever lived, the logical theological conclusion is that nearly all humans are going to have very unpleasant "after-lives".

Fortunately, I prefer a warm climate. :D

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[Anastacia]

What does it mean to believe in Jesus? To believe that he exists but to ignore all he said? Or is it to believe in him and what he said. And he said a lot about works. So, if you believe in him you believe in what he said too.

[truthaddict11]

lol redstar the guy who started that John 3:16 thing at events was an "ex hippie" who had "found god" so he would then go to sports events such as The Superbowl shirtless and with a rainbow wig with a sign that said John 3:16

[redstar2000]

Back when you could still watch a lot of televised baseball for free, I recall the first time I saw one of those nutballs. They would buy seats where you could not avoid seeing them when the camera focused in on the batter.

The first time I saw one, my initial reaction was "the batter&#39;s first name is not John, is it?" and "3 for his last 16...that&#39;s not very good". :lol:

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[marxstudent]

Only ignorant fucks say that heaven is a free gift. James 2:24,226 says one who has faith needs works to justify it. no works=no faith=no heaven.

I think people get their thinking on Christianity based off of Evangelical Protestants. Those Christians tend to be a bit pushy w/ the brimestone and fire shit. They say gays will go to hell, nonbelievers, and more. One has to remember that Protestants base the Bible on THEIR interpretation and off of one MAN- Martin Luther. Also, the translations of the Bible might be inaccurate so one can&#39;t fully trust what he reads. Like how the Kings James Bible first said murder and killing are two different things. Murder is killing someone out of hatred, wheras killing is alright if your own life is in jeopardy.

In Orthodoxy, people say that nonbelievers CAN in fact go to heaven (it&#39;s not officially declared though) and there are a couple verses that imply this. Note that Orthodoxy was based from what the apostles originally had the church to be so I&#39;d say they are more accurate than Protestants.

[redstar2000]

In Orthodoxy, people say that nonbelievers CAN in fact go to heaven (it&#39;s not officially declared though) and there are a couple verses that imply this.

Link?

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[cubist]

thought i would join this debate being an ex believer,

i believe in a creator and that is all. at least for the moment.


right well here it is.

as a christian i believed that you would go to heaven for excepting the fundamental basis of the faith, jesus christ.. that is all

the bible before jesus&#39;s existance is a guide it is preached as a guide.

you all have problems with the fact that if you don&#39;t hear about it you are dammed,

well the imoral issues

I think the Bible is immoral because it is misogynistic, pro-slavery, racist and intolerant, and the entire idea that something must die so something else can to be "forgiven" is patently barbaric and was an outdated idea thousands of years ago.

exaMPLES OF THESE ISSUES

Isaiah 13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.
Numbers 31:7-18 ...as the LORD had commanded Moses; and they slew all the males...
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 ...thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword...But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Samuel 12:11-14 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee...I will take your wives (plural) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.

that is why i can no longer believe

[cubist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 12:03 AM
Only ignorant fucks say that heaven is a free gift. James 2:24,226 says one who has faith needs works to justify it. no works=no faith=no heaven.

I think people get their thinking on Christianity based off of Evangelical Protestants. Those Christians tend to be a bit pushy w/ the brimestone and fire shit. They say gays will go to hell, nonbelievers, and more. One has to remember that Protestants base the Bible on THEIR interpretation and off of one MAN- Martin Luther. Also, the translations of the Bible might be inaccurate so one can&#39;t fully trust what he reads. Like how the Kings James Bible first said murder and killing are two different things. Murder is killing someone out of hatred, wheras killing is alright if your own life is in jeopardy.

In Orthodoxy, people say that nonbelievers CAN in fact go to heaven (it&#39;s not officially declared though) and there are a couple verses that imply this. Note that Orthodoxy was based from what the apostles originally had the church to be so I&#39;d say they are more accurate than Protestants.
marxstudent

paul possibly the most important person after jesus teacvhes the oppposite of what you say,

he warns of immorality but in ephesians he speaks

you should live like god in order to get into heaven

see ephesians 5 living as children of the light. i think its definately book and name maybe not chapter.


Martin luther???Are you aware that people like Hitler was anti-Semitic JUST LIKE Martin Luther. Yes, thats right Martin Luther hated the Jews, and even wrote a book on it called "On the Jews and Their Lies".

a few extracts from it

A few Selected quotes from On the Jews and Their Lies:

"I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God&#39;s word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen."

"He did not call them Abraham&#39;s children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon&#39; [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham&#39;s children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham&#39;s but the devil&#39;s children, nor can they bear to hear this today."


and finally

you mention the book of james

Luther didnt think the Bible was inerrent as he says:

"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."

[marxstudent]

Red, you&#39;ll have to trust me on this one or you can go to an Eastern Orthodox Church and ask some members yourself. If you give me a day or two I can ask for a more detailed explaination. There&#39;s some stuff in Matt that refers to this but I&#39;m not entirely sure.

I don&#39;t care what LUther says because he is one man who decided to interpret the Bible and make a church based on what he personally believed. Also, I said the Bible has been noted to be translated wrongly.

Yes I&#39;m aware Paul&#39;s view of salvation was totally different from James&#39;. Paul says you need faith and faith alone but what makes up faith? works. What you say of salvation is based on the Protestant&#39;s view on things. I think a church that practices what the church was originally supposed to be will be more credible than a church that decided to just make up things and get rid of things just because one man favored some stuff over others (Yes, Protestant church from Luther)

Also, how does one interpret the Bible? Take it literal, take it from their cultural times, what? The reason there&#39;s so much disorder going on in Christianity was because of translation and interpretation that was based on fallible man.

[redstar2000]

If you give me a day or two I can ask for a more detailed explanation.

Take your time...no hurry. But try to pin them down to "chapter & verse"...I&#39;m pretty familiar with the "Bible" and I think I would have noticed something like that.


Yes, that&#39;s right. Martin Luther hated the Jews, and even wrote a book on it called "On the Jews and Their Lies".

He did indeed. What makes his anti-semitism especially ironic is that he didn&#39;t start out that way. Early on, he was convinced that his "simplified Christianity" would have an irresistible appeal to the Jews...and that by converting the Jews, the superiority of his theology to Catholicism would be demonstrated for all the world to see.

The Jews--"stiff-necked bastards"--were unimpressed. So Luther did a 180 degree turn and wrote the most vicious anti-semitic propaganda...stuff so bad that it was not matched and exceeded until the days of the Third Reich itself.

He also, like a "true Christian", sided with the feudal lords during the great peasant rebellions of 1520-21...calling on them to massacre those rebellious servants of Satan.

Further irony: one of the very last great public celebrations in the old German Democratic Republic (East Germany) was in commemoration of the birth of Martin Luther. (&#33;)

There are times when the shit gets so thick that you need a steam-shovel&#33; :o

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[cubist]

marxstudent

the bible is read out of context by non christians,

i was referencing KJV in those verses

but don&#39;t you find it ironic that only christians find the logic to read it in the context everyone takes it out of.



I wasn&#39;t arguing against the church i am talking on a purely biblical context, but see ing as you seem to want to i will further down

justify gods ordering of the rape of davids wives using doctrinal knowlege, and i will bow this is one of the main reasons i lost faith in christianity becuase i couldn&#39;t justify it.

protestant, orthodox what ever it is the bible is still read in black and white, and as long there are these immoral teachings in there it can&#39;t be taken seriously.

---------------------------why curch is wrong-------------------------------

church, the bible is the church god should be your guide, there is no true church, the all confuse and mislead inorder to profit out of others weakness

no church celebrates communion correctly, communion was a meal between all members where they ate and broke bread at the end, i don&#39;t see that practiced anywhere, not in protestant baptist or bullshit CofE nor in Catholic or russian orthodox,

non protestant churches believe in some crazy ritchual styled things that i don&#39;t recall jesus talking about..

sorry marx i don&#39;t see protestant/othodox i see church

the problem is no one could agree in the first place so they created little side groups which are now full blown church communities world wide. these communities all act in order to please a different style of listener. just like types of films are suited to types of people. basically they each individually tell the listener in a different way what they should/shouldn&#39;t do and to cough up money.

aren&#39;t mormons derranged christains? what do you think of them?

[shakermaker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 06:25 PM
---------------------------why curch is wrong-------------------------------

church, the bible is the church god should be your guide, there is no true church, the all confuse and mislead inorder to profit out of others weakness

no church celebrates communion correctly, communion was a meal between all members where they ate and broke bread at the end, i don&#39;t see that practiced anywhere, not in protestant baptist or bullshit CofE nor in Catholic or russian orthodox,

non protestant churches believe in some crazy ritchual styled things that i don&#39;t recall jesus talking about..

I&#39;ve heard that if the 5th Gospel get public it would be doom ofthe Church.

[cubist]

possibly, like i said the bible should be the church

[redstar2000]

:lol:

Pope John Paul II is to beatify the last emperor of the Austro-Hungarian empire, Charles I, after recognising a miracle attributed to him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/3337711.stm

Where was "God" while his "empire" was collapsing? :lol:

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