What is the Vanguard?

[Bostana]

Sorry for asking a lot of questions lately, but can someone give more information on the Vanguard. I've been told it is a group of people meant to fix problems in the country, I mat be wrong.

Also, Can someone give me a link to Lenin's What is to be Done?

Thanks
Peace

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The vanguard is the theoretically advanced sections of the working class which fight for socialist revolution.

edit: What is to be done http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/index.htm

[NewLeft]

The vanguard is made up of commit ed workers in the class struggle who will lead the proletariat towards socialism.

What is to be done: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/

[Art Vandelay]

Sorry for asking a lot of questions lately, but can someone give more information on the Vanguard. I've been told it is a group of people meant to fix problems in the country, I mat be wrong.

Also, Can someone give me a link to Lenin's What is to be Done?

Thanks
Peace

The vanguard party was an innovation (or as some claim an extension) to Marxism created by Vladmir Lenin. Basically the belief was (I am no authority on the subject so I could be wrong) that workers could not fully develop class consciousness, which up until that point had been considered a pre-requisite for revolution. Lenin claimed that the average worker would be unable to become class conscious, which is shown through his famous quote:

"If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years."

His solution to this barrier to revolution was the vanguard party, ie: the most advanced and class conscious sections of the proletariat would become professional revolutionaries to help guide the masses to socialism.

What is to be done, Lenin:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/

P.S. never worry about asking questions, it would be better if those who came here to learn asked a lot more questions than they do; myself included.

[Caj]

The vanguard is the class conscious section of the proletariat. Check marxists.org for What is to be Done? or really any other texts on Marxism.

[Rooster]

Contrast with Marx in the manifesto:


The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country

[Manic Impressive]

Our very presence on this website as class concious workers disproves Lenin's patronizing conclusions about the working class. This is Lenin's anti working class view.


The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own efforts, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc. The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical and economic theories that were elaborated by the educated representatives of the propertied classes, the intellectuals
So basically he believed that intellectuals, the intelligentsia are in fact the section of society that must become dominant not the working class as Marx says. This is in a way similar to the positions of socialists who preceded Marx such as St Simon and Robert Owen, who took on the struggle on behalf of the working class and who Engels deals with in Socialism: Utopian and scientific (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch01.htm). You could also say that it is comparable to modern utopian socialists like the Zeitgeist movement and other technocratic theories. This is the antithesis of Marx's theory of the working class emancipating themselves.

[CommiePhilosiphy]

I am going to ask a sub-question here;

Is the Vanguard against Marxist and Engels theory?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I am going to ask a sub-question here;

Is the Vanguard against Marxist and Engels theory?

I wouldn't say it is against it as much as it is a different concept than Marx and Engles's theory... assuming you mean the vanguard party.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I am going to ask a sub-question here;

Is the Vanguard against Marxist and Engels theory?

No, but the Vanguardism advocated by Marx and Engels is different than that of Lenin. Marx saw the Vanguard as the class conscious section of the working class willing to participate in communist agitation and struggle while Lenin saw the Vanguard as a group of the most dedicated and militant and made up more of intellectuals. Where Marx didn't think that the Vanguard should be above and separate from the masses and Lenin basically did that.

Whether that was correct for Lenin's time and place or not is debatable (I am under the impression it was correct) but in a more industrialized and modern capitalist society like America I do not think Lenin's idea of the Vanguard is relevant.

[Ostrinski]

I am going to ask a sub-question here;

Is the Vanguard against Marxist and Engels theory?No. It is merely the application of revolutionary theory into a practical organizational solution.

[Manic Impressive]

I am going to ask a sub-question here;

Is the Vanguard against Marxist and Engels theory?
yes it is. As I said it's the antithesis to Marx's theory read the quote by Marx in roosters post then read the Lenin quote in mine. They are opposites. Here are a couple more to compare.

The proletarian movement is the self-conscious, independent movement of the immense majority in the interest of the immense majority

If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years...The Socialist political party - this is the vanguard of the working class; it must not allow itself to be halted by the lack of education of the mass average, but it must lead the masses, using the Soviets as organs of revolutionary initiative

[Manic Impressive]

Also Engels on Blanqui and the paris commune bares a remarkable resemblance to the Bolsheviks seizure of power. http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1874/06/26.htm


Blanqui is essentially a political revolutionist. He is a socialist only through sentiment, through his sympathy with the sufferings of the people, but he has neither a socialist theory nor any definite practical suggestions for social remedies. In his political activity he was mainly a "man of action", believing that a small and well organized minority, who would attempt a political stroke of force at the opportune moment, could carry the mass of the people with them by a few successes at the start and thus make a victorious revolution. Of course, he could organize such a group under Louis Phillippe's reign only as a secret society. Then the thing, which generally happens in the case of conspiracies, naturally took place. His men, tired of beings held off all the time by the empty promises that the outbreak should soon begin, finally lost all patience, became rebellious, and only the alternative remained of either letting the conspiracy fall to pieces or of breaking loose without any apparent provocation. They made a revolution on May 12th, 1839, and were promptly squelched. By the way, this Blanquist conspiracy was the only one, in which the police could never get a foothold. The blow fell out of a clear sky.
From Blanqui's assumption, that any revolution may be made by the outbreak of a small revolutionary minority, follows of itself the necessity of a dictatorship after the success of the venture. This is, of course, a dictatorship, not of the entire revolutionary class, the proletariat, but of the small minority that has made the revolution, and who are themselves previously organized under the dictatorship of one or several individuals.

[CommiePhilosiphy]

So Lenin's Vanguard Party is against Marx and Engels Philosophy

[Manic Impressive]

You already asked that and you got three different answers Yes, Kinda and No :)
read the quotes I've given you and make up your own mind.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Like Manic said, he said yes it was and gave reasons why (although I think he failed to realize that either A. Marx and Engels had a conception of vanguardism or B. Thought of vanguardism=Leninism) I said kind of and gave reasons why, and Brospierre said no and gave a reason why.

[Manic Impressive]

A. Marx and Engels had a conception of vanguardism
Proof please I don't know how many times I've asked for this but nobody has ever been able to provide any.

Edit: sorry yes they certainly had a conception of it as they denounced it but if you've got proof to the contrary I'd be eager to read it.


B. Thought of vanguardism=Leninism)
Well they were asking specifically about Lenin but in my op I mention socialists who preceded Marx who basically had the same idea as Lenin. Weitling was another one who thought the same as Lenin and was dubbed utopian by Marx.


“to want to wait...until all are suitably enlightened would be to abandon the thing altogether!”

[ckaihatsu]

So the question here is of *degree of substitutionism* -- if we waited for every single working-class person on earth to consent to revolution then we *would* be waiting around for centuries, but on the other hand we know that Blanquism is *too* substitutionist.